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The Giant
2006-01-06, 02:52 PM
New comic is up.

I gotta go call someone about the server, this is ridiculous...It took me two hours to get a connection to post the comic in the first place!

n11
2006-01-06, 03:11 PM
and I thought it was just me (the slow response of the server).

Crypto-solutions below for those interested (looks like someone made a listen check):







Wait. Listen!

Back in the cells! Back! BACK!!

ref
2006-01-06, 05:03 PM
Same thing here. Very slow.

But the comic is great. And I agree with n11 crypto solutions. Looks like Haley saved the day.

Before anyone begins saying how Durkon lied, he didn't. The five of them didn't leave their cells. Only four of them did. Making an excuse for Belkar won't be so easy, though.

Mjoellnir
2006-01-06, 05:28 PM
Belkar has now my official support for harvesting Mikos Kidneys. "Honorless pig" poor Elan.

Durkon has won back my respect, these were the best two none-lies I've ever read.

PS: Yes, it's extremely slow. Took me one hour to get to the reply window, and now the smileys aren't even loaded.

The Giant
2006-01-06, 08:29 PM
Yeah, so, in case anyone can actually read this: RawBear tells me we're the target of a Denial of Services attack, and that this is probably what slammed the server last time, too. He's doing his best to combat it.

soni
2006-01-06, 08:47 PM
the attacks only come on new 'toon days... maybe your ISP needs better firewall protection?

Istielthia
2006-01-06, 09:56 PM
Yay! Finally made it to the forums.

I third the decryptions. Great comic, Giant.

Glad to see Haley make good use of her roguey skills.

Hawkeye
2006-01-06, 10:02 PM
Damn. Someone beat the cryptogram before me, I got the same results as well. Must try to be quicker next time.....

Nice strip, but I kinda wanted some bloodshed. I think we're going to have to rely on belkar to kill and harvest the kidneys of the mook guards. We must be getting close to the end of this railroad plot, entertaining as it has been so far.

Krytha
2006-01-07, 02:08 AM
Whew! One heck of a time trying to get my OotS fix! I thought it was just a million people trying to do the exact same thing as me, all at once!

So Durkon finally helps the team out a little! Huzzah! They are not all dead! Except for Belkar... he is so toast... but yay for OotS!!

Eriol
2006-01-07, 02:17 AM
Yeah, so, in case anyone can actually read this: RawBear tells me we're the target of a Denial of Services attack, and that this is probably what slammed the server last time, too. He's doing his best to combat it.
Well I wish him good luck.

In retrospect, I should home figured, as if it were only the load from people looking for the new strip, wednesday would have been as bad as Monday But it wasn't, so it was artificial Monday and today.

Really sucks.

fwiffo
2006-01-07, 02:23 AM
Gees... why would anyone run a DOS attack on a webcomic site? Don't those people have anything better to do? Although it is probably not an attack on the OOTS itself, but on whoever hosts this site, so maybe GiantITP is just an innocent bystander in the attack.

Anyway, great to see Durkon back fully on the side of the Order. And those were two darn creative "explanations". He took risks. Anyone with any level of "street smarts" would've easily been able to corner Durkon; I guess he counted on Miko not having those skills. He got lucky. Could've easily backfired on him and destroyed the only influence Order has on Miko.

Woohoo! I think the attack is over. Site is back to full speed for me

Duraska
2006-01-07, 02:25 AM
I love Miko so much. Any comic that features Miko is worth waiting 20 minutes for.

And for anyone who says she's disrespectful... did you see the kind bow she did when addressing Durkon?

Sorry to hear about the web server. Hopefully things will be resolved soon!

Liquid
2006-01-07, 02:26 AM
wow...i made it to page 1 :)

Nice strip though...I finally read it after the site was unavailable (Bloody DoS attacks). Durkon for teh win!1! :)

Ragamuffin
2006-01-07, 02:28 AM
Likewise. Everything seems to be back at 100%.

"Mechanical defect"....I should keep that one in mind...

Yahoo_Serious
2006-01-07, 02:32 AM
Denial of service? This happens every time a new OOTS is posted... though today was the worst... better talk to the server guys...

Nice to see that Durkon is one of the gang again!

Winged One
2006-01-07, 02:32 AM
Wombat, it's been hard to get on this site. I thought it was just the rest of The Giant's zombie minions all trying to read OOTS at once, but I began to suspect t3h h4xx0rz(leet for "the hackers", for those who have been lucky enough to avoid learning it) more and more as the day went on. Nothing I say is going to get this fixed faster, therefore: thank you, RAWbear for your efforts, and thank you, Giant, for putting up with the server long enough to post the comic.

Anyway...glad to see Durkon still values the lives of his friends. Being possible to pick is, indeed, a major mechanical defect. ;)

EDIT: apparantly , h4xx0r actually means "cracker" rather than "hacker", at least in my understanding. Thank you for the correction.

Mr._Blinky
2006-01-07, 02:33 AM
Good to see it wasn't only me having problems. Took me several hours just to get to the site.

That was an impressive set of non-lies from Durkon. He never really lied, but didn't mean any of it in the way Miko thought he did.

That Lanky Bugger
2006-01-07, 02:33 AM
Sounds like it's time to upgrade the box hosting the site or the connection the site has to the intarweb, Giant. Just my two cents.

Durkon has now redeemed himself. Also, one of the OotS making a Spot/Listen check made this worthwhile, even if nothing else did (and believe me, plenty of other things did).

OldFart
2006-01-07, 02:35 AM
He took risks. Anyone with any level of "street smarts" would've easily been able to corner Durkon
I must respectfully disagree that assuming Miko has no street smarts qualifies as a "risk."

Heck, IMO assuming she has no smarts whatsoever is a fairly safe bet! ;-)

Martok
2006-01-07, 02:43 AM
Durkon has won back my respect, these were the best two none-lies I've ever read.


I concur with that 100%. I finally saw the "real" Durkon again--the one we all know and love. That was some fancy verbal footwork on his part, although it's a good thing for him Miko apparently doesn't have "Sense Motive"!

Great strip today, Giant. :)

The Giant
2006-01-07, 02:49 AM
Denial of service? This happens every time a new OOTS is posted... though today was the worst...

Normal lag from people checking the comic usually dies down about 3-4 hours after the strip gets posted. Today, the strip was finally posted at 2:00 pm, and the site didn't return to full speed until 2:00 am, 12 hours later.

obfuscateandy
2006-01-07, 02:50 AM
it might not be a dos attack as much as it is just people checking at peak hours to see if there is a comic?

poor elan, hes not a pig....dosnt really have honor to speak of, being a bard...but still.....

dude, Durkon is so a 3D character now...i mean before he was cool and everything, but he really stands out more so in my mind now...

at least we know someone in this comic can pass a listen check....

humanpylon
2006-01-07, 02:56 AM
*Sigh* Once again I am forced to display my ignorance. What is a "denial of service attack"? Apologies for the buffoonery, what I know about computers can fit under my fingernail.

xrestassuredx
2006-01-07, 03:12 AM
Yay! Finally got into the forums ..

I think the funniest part of this comic was that Roy and Durkon referred to the fact that Durkon did heal the Order during the second battle with Miko -- a battle that never took place except in the forums! :D

fwiffo
2006-01-07, 03:14 AM
*Sigh* Once again I am forced to display my ignorance. What is a "denial of service attack"? Apologies for the buffoonery, what I know about computers can fit under my fingernail.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_service

In layman terms, it is pretty much just flooding the web site server with requests for information. Those requests are sent at such high rate of speed that legitimate requests from the legitimate users can't get through.

grim_chook
2006-01-07, 03:18 AM
ARGH CLIFFHANGER

Are we ever actually going to meet this lord Shojo guy or is he going to be drunk or away never to be truly revealed like the monster in the shadows.

*gasp*

The monster in the shadows is lord shojo! Rich you sly devil! :o

Also, Durkon just rocks hard doesn't he!

humanpylon
2006-01-07, 03:21 AM
Thanks Fwiffo ;D

Next question. Where the hell did Miko pull those swords out from in panel 6? Or is that something best left unthought of, like Belkar's ring ;)

Nerd-o-rama
2006-01-07, 03:28 AM
See, this is exactly the kind of evasive answers that get me in trouble with my girlfriend. However, I'm not fibbing at katana-point.

Alfryd
2006-01-07, 03:31 AM
I love Miko so much. Any comic that features Miko is worth waiting 20 minutes for.

And for anyone who says she's disrespectful... did you see the kind bow she did when addressing Durkon?
I dunno. Even I'm growing tired with Miko's attitude. Roy & Durkon may have surrendered after the second scrap, but I don't recall anyone else swearing the blood oath to come quietly.
And this "after brief acquaintance, I trust Durkon for siding against his party, therefore I will believe what he says in defiance of overwhelming likelihood that the opposite is true" thing is just a tad dense.

Heck, IMO assuming she has no smarts whatsoever is a fairly safe bet!
No, she is simply under the somewhat bizarre impression that all decent people are her psychological clones. As you can now see, this has worked both for and against the OotS.


"the hackers"
Just for future reference:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/H/hacker.html
http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/C/cracker.html
This has been a public service announcement.

Wyrm
2006-01-07, 03:31 AM
Hello, my first post and all, so...Hello :D

Just thought I'd say, this was a good strip today, worth the wait. I can't wait to get back to Belkar and see what carnage he's managed while everyone else has been walking on eggshells in this place

Corim_Danex
2006-01-07, 03:35 AM
First post.

This is my favorite comic strip ever. Online or in print.

I am really pleased that Durkon pulled through today, as he is perhaps my favorite member of OoTS, and his actions had been making me wonder what was going on in his head. I am looking forward to seeing how Belkar's situation develops.

As an aside, speaking about the last strip that Xylon was in--has he been staring at that huge army ever since the evilgasm quote? :o He doesn't need to eat or sleep, so it's possible.

Edna
2006-01-07, 03:49 AM
Yeah, so, in case anyone can actually read this: RawBear tells me we're the target of a Denial of Services attack, and that this is probably what slammed the server last time, too. He's doing his best to combat it.

And here I thought OoTS was just getting too popular!

At least the server problems have forced me to work out the last two cryptograms myself, rather than looking the answers up on the boards.

Edna

Reptile
2006-01-07, 03:58 AM
Wow.

Is this the first time a member of the OOTS succeeded on a Listen check? ;)

(enjoyed the comic; sad to hear about the attack on the server--I was going to ask in Board Issues if there was some kind of heavy load going on, but thankfully came here first so now I know.)

Maryring
2006-01-07, 04:52 AM
Wow. Go Haley and Durkon. Thank you for saving the order from Miko. I still think that it is funny how such a defect could work... not ;)

Marller
2006-01-07, 05:06 AM
Hehe, Durkon has indeed the highest WIS stat in the group. :)

And Durkon was never against his group, they chose to go against the counsel of their spiritual advisor.
Some people got a strange definition of friendship. To Durkon it was if they were jumping down a cliff to their deaths with you saying "Come on if you are their friend you jump with them." Not gonna happen.

Don't know what you expect from Miko. No matter how you view their capture, no capturer would be happy to see the prisoners escape.

Zantetsuken_Kokoro
2006-01-07, 05:24 AM
I agree that Durkon was honest.

Kamakazee_Gnome
2006-01-07, 05:28 AM
Can't wait till they see Belkar's wake of carnage...

"I dunno. I count "able to be picked by a rogue" as a pretty magor defect, aye?" :D

Chaos
2006-01-07, 05:42 AM
Normal lag from people checking the comic usually dies down about 3-4 hours after the strip gets posted. Today, the strip was finally posted at 2:00 pm, and the site didn't return to full speed until 2:00 am, 12 hours later.


Usually I cannot access the GiantITP.com page at all for about an hour or so after the comic was posted.
Yesterday it was down from about 4 PM to midnight local time (should be 10 AM to 6 PM East Coast time), when I stopped trying. Now at 11 AM (5 AM for you) all is fine again.

idksocrates
2006-01-07, 06:35 AM
I experience lags on giant all the time. sometimes the server is completely unavailable. Which means that I have to go to alternative sites while I wait for the server to come back up.

This strategy normally works for me. I try going to the forums instead.

Hmm... I'm starting to detect a lag in my judgement... ???

obfuscateandy
2006-01-07, 06:56 AM
Where the hell did Miko pull those swords out from in panel 6? Or is that something best left unthought of, like Belkar's ring ;)

that is a scarry thought, and i dont think the first place elan would want the sword would be in his face...but then again, he is a womanizer...then again, who wants a sword in their face

that and i dont think the first thing she would say to Durkon would be, i know you wont lie to me...i think it would more along the lies of a scream or sobing for help....

that would hurt, alot.....perhaps i shouldnt think about it...

Electric_Monkey
2006-01-07, 07:59 AM
Durkon seems to be getting quite accomplished at not-technically-lying (if you count his double negative in 202 as a similar trick) - has he ever considered running for public office?

Elurindel
2006-01-07, 08:23 AM
I'm glad that Durkon finally decided to do something helpful in regards to the whole Miko matter. I realise that he wants the group to meet Shojo, but I think he was being unreasonable. It really made me smile when I realised that his talent for words and white lies is now beginning to rival my own. I must say, I'm impressed.

Single Shot Zombie
2006-01-07, 08:46 AM
All that glibness, after all that talk about a low Charisma modifier........

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200

Max_Sinister
2006-01-07, 09:43 AM
What do you need to recognize lies? INT, WIS or CHA again? (I'm a gamer myself too, but no D&D expert.)

And I solved the cryptogram too (this time it was very easy), but the server was so slow that time I didn't try to post it. (Next time, then.)

Caledonian
2006-01-07, 09:49 AM
I concur with that 100%. I finally saw the "real" Durkon again--the one we all know and love. That was some fancy verbal footwork on his part, although it's a good thing for him Miko apparently doesn't have "Sense Motive"! Since Durkon told nothing but the truth, it would take a very high SM check to detect that he wasn't telling the whole truth. Sincerity is the best method of deception.

Zantetsuken_Kokoro
2006-01-07, 10:38 AM
I'm glad that Durkon finally decided to do something helpful in regards to the whole Miko matter. I realise that he wants the group to meet Shojo, but I think he was being unreasonable. It really made me smile when I realised that his talent for words and white lies is now beginning to rival my own. I must say, I'm impressed.

Durkon spoke the absolute truth. It was Miko who didn't know to read between the lines.

mihai
2006-01-07, 11:42 AM
[...] Sincerity is the best method of deception.


Indeed. A good example how to lie with truths.

It's nice to see how a good-aligned charakter can choose what that "good" means to him. Probably for Durkon the well-being of the Order has much higher priority than sincerity (fulfilled here only in a nitpicking way) or even loyalty (if that means following orders). It's rather ironic that in his field of highest priority, the will of Thor, he's totally wrong. But I like that in a way, he is fulfilling the will that Thor should have. Almost philosophical ;D

Nice strip! I somehow hoped that it could still be resolved without any unrealistic battle (which had to be won by the Order), but I just couldn't think of a way. Well done!

Alfryd
2006-01-07, 11:44 AM
No matter how you view their capture, no capturer would be happy to see the prisoners escape.
Yes, but actually getting angry with the prisoner as a violation of their assumed honour code is another matter. 'And stand still while I'm spanking you!'

Durkon spoke the absolute truth. It was Miko who didn't know to read between the lines.
Yes, but by the same token Miko assumes Durkon can be relied upon to tell the truth, she assumes he will phrase his replies in such a way that the most obvious interpretation is the correct meaning.

kerberos
2006-01-07, 11:57 AM
Since Durkon told nothing but the truth, it would take a very high SM check to detect that he wasn't telling the whole truth. Sincerity is the best method of deception.

Actually it would be easier , because you can tell he's lying both by the usual signs of lying (is he sweating? looks nervous? etc.) and by noticing that he doesn't answer clearly. I cases like this lying is the best method of deception, not half-truths. Case of point: There was a rather amusing episode when a Danish Bicycle star Bjarne Riss, who won the Tour de France was asked whether he'd ever used doping. Rather than lying like any sensible person he answered "I've never been tested positive" which I have no doubt whatsoever is absolutely true but might not be the whole truth. This obviously clued everyone with a functional brain in on the fact that he had used doping. Particularly after he repeated this unconvincing denial 4 or 5 times, before finally issuing a clear denial (AKA lie), after which the journalists who had previously expressed concern over his aversions joyously proclaimed that it was nice that we got that question out of the way, and now knew that he had never used doping :P. If he had lied people might have believed him, but by choosing to tell a half truth instead, he gave his game away.

archon_huskie
2006-01-07, 11:57 AM
FOOLS! do you not see that Durkon is the only one who has not betrayed the goals of the Order of the Stick? It is Haley, V, Elan, and Roy who have strayed from their holy path.
Yes. this is the truth. DO NOT QUESTION IT. I have spoken and I have spoken true.

Bow before my +5 Charisma modifier.

Antina
2006-01-07, 12:02 PM
Durkon bends the truth - this can be - in not-court-talking - considered a lie.
But I think it to be the perfect thing for him to do
.
He´s following what he thinks to be "his god´s will" to the last: Try not to fight Miko (which they would have obviously done otherwise).

And concerning Belkar: Yes - I´m pretty afraid of all the mess he might have gotten the team into until now - hmm - if he did not stumble - by chance - into a big prepared feast of delicious food and decided to stay for a while and have a hobbit-snack ;)

Eriol
2006-01-07, 12:05 PM
To quote a fairly large sci-fi character The Giant is familiar with: A half-truth is the worst kind of lie.

Duraska
2006-01-07, 12:12 PM
Hehe, Durkon has indeed the highest WIS stat in the group. :)

And Durkon was never against his group, they chose to go against the counsel of their spiritual advisor.
Some people got a strange definition of friendship. To Durkon it was if they were jumping down a cliff to their deaths with you saying "Come on if you are their friend you jump with them." Not gonna happen.

Don't know what you expect from Miko. No matter how you view their capture, no capturer would be happy to see the prisoners escape.

Excellent post. But I wouldn't waste your breath. You see, people here will completely hate Miko until the day that she dies, or the strip ends (whichever comes first). And I don't mean that they 'dislike' her, I mean they HATE her. Unfortunately that's just the way it goes. Yes, it's a bit hypocritical to hate Miko based on the fact that she doesn't consider the OOTS' point of view, while in turn completely ignoring Miko's point of view... but that's another discussion.

Fortunately for Miko, she will always have me. Whatever that's worth. :)

[Edit: I must have a -2 circumstance penalty to all typing abilities today...]

Caledonian
2006-01-07, 12:15 PM
"Everybody lies, Michael. The innocent lie because they don't want to be punished for something they didn't do, and the guilty lie because they have no other choice." -- Cmdr. Jeffrey Sinclair, Babylon 5

Reborn
2006-01-07, 12:33 PM
Absofragginglutely dammit.

Max_Sinister
2006-01-07, 12:47 PM
English isn't my native language... why exactly can you say that the, er, connection Durkon-Haley is a mechanical defect?

Caledonian
2006-01-07, 12:49 PM
Let us also keep in mind the distinction between lying and deception.

Deception is a knowing attempt to cause someone to draw conclusions at odds with the truth. A lie is an untruth knowingly expressed for the purpose of deception.

It is thus possible to deceive while speaking nothing but the truth, or even saying anything at all! That is one of the reasons why there is a Detect Lies spell, but not a Detect Truth spell.

Caledonian
2006-01-07, 12:50 PM
English isn't my native language... why exactly can you say that the, er, connection Durkon-Haley is a mechanical defect?
What? No, no, the defect Durkon speaks of is in the locks. He implies that the locks failed and opened by themselves. What he actually believes is that any lock that Haley can pick is defective in the sense that it cannot fulfill its intended purpose.

rosebud
2006-01-07, 01:20 PM
Durkon spoke the absolute truth. It was Miko who didn't know to read between the lines.I think she just trusted him. He spoke the truth, but, of course, not the whole truth. Since they were going to come with her and they had someone "trustworthy" to vouch for them, it didn't matter in the end what the whole truth was.

While she has her bouts of cluelessness (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=212), she also had her moments of deception (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=215) in her speech with to the ogre tribe.

The_Kobold_Hero
2006-01-07, 02:03 PM
I don't think the OoTS has gotten so close to toatal distruction. . . Though lets just see what happens next shall we? ;D

rosebud
2006-01-07, 02:11 PM
Excellent post. But I wouldn't waste your breath.Actually, no, I quite appreciated it. The other thing to add is that this is the second time that Durkon saved the group from Miko. Roy doesn't acknowledge that; something titanic clouded his thinking.


You see, people here will completely hate Miko until the day that she diesSome will, but some will give her a chance if she can change. She respects her elders, so a critical point is what happens in the encounter Shojo.


it's a bit hypocritical to hate Miko based on the fact that she doesn't consider the OOTS' point of view, while in turn completely ignoring Miko's point of view... but that's another discussion.Sorry, can't get out of it that quickly. And what else is there to talk about? :)

Some dislike Miko based upon her ACTIONS and some hate her based on her personality. Her perspective doesn't excuse the former. She admitted error to Durkon, so she should have given the cooperating team better consideration.

Durkon was the only person who surrendered in the first encounter, so he had her initial trust. For everyone else, she has been disrespectful and distrustful.

Yes, Belkar is evil. But she accepts Durkon, so it is not unreasonable to accept the others.

Haley's eagerness to help the dirt famer suggested she was not a simple rogue and had motives and honor to be found. Had Miko gained her trust, she might have found what Haley has kept from the others. But, no, Haley is just greedy. Sorry, I can understand Miko's view, but it's based upon a CHARACTER FLAW, so I'm not going to praise Miko for it. She treated Haley poorly.

With minor exceptions, Elan stayed out of both battles. Yes, he is annoying at times, but it was clear to her that he had a pure heart even if his head was empty. She had no reason to disrespect him. But, as Elan relates in #231, "No, she's really mean, Roy. To me, and to Vaarsuvius, and to you, too." Yes, you can say she was an orphan raised in a monastery. Okay, she had an austere life. She's still mean.

She was prejudiced against V from the beginning. But she attacked V first even when Roy and V were trying to talk with her. Afterwards, Vaarsuvius consented to travel to the Azure City. But Miko never learned her name -- not even the first letter of her name. Miko was disrespectful.

As for Roy, he was a jerk. #250, while cute, seems forced on one point. I don't see a reserved paladin like her openly speak of a "romantic relationship". But The Story demanded it, so here we are. It's understandable why Miko and Roy are mutually pissed. But if she pulls her head out of her posterior, she might give his words proper credence.

To quote Darcy in Jane Austen's Pride and Prejudice:

Your reproof, so well applied, I shall never forget: "had you behaved in a more gentleman-like manner." Those were your words. You know not, you can scarcely conceive, how they have tortured me; -- though it was some time, I confess, before I was reasonable enough to allow their justice.''


Fortunately for Miko, she will always have me. Whatever that's worth. :)Unfortunately for you, she probably doesn't care. :D

Reptile
2006-01-07, 02:17 PM
What do you need to recognize lies? INT, WIS or CHA again? (I'm a gamer myself too, but no D&D expert.)

The Sense Motive skill, which is Wisdom-based.

Dorni
2006-01-07, 02:34 PM
I wouldn't go around praising Durkon just yet. He may have decieved Miko and saved the rest of the OoTS, but what was his other option again? If he had fully explained what happened, he would have condemned the rest of the OoTS, quite possibly to death. He has adventured with these people for some time now, he does value them. While him and the rest of the OoTS may have a disagreement right now, that doesn't mean he would want them dead.

Besides that, if he hadn't saved the rest of the Order, a strong argument could be made that he performed an evil act. (Not saving his trusted comrades, Betraying them) Remember that he is also a dwarf, and their culture doesn't look kindly on such conduct. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=111) We don't know exactly what Thor demands of his deciples, but he seems very dwarven. It could be argued, with those supports, that if Durkon had betrayed his betrayed his comrads, he may have sufficently violated Thor's values that Durkon may have lost his clerical powers. Extreme? Possibly, but I don't see any cleric wanting to take that chance.

Xander77
2006-01-07, 02:47 PM
Where's my Haley translation? ???

It's been like a day - why are people denying me my unarguable right to get the sense without being forced to use my own brain? >:(

Winged One
2006-01-07, 02:51 PM
It's in the second post. *grumbles about low Spot modifiers*

kerberos
2006-01-07, 03:54 PM
Where's my Haley translation? ???

It's been like a day - why are people denying me my unarguable right to get the sense without being forced to use my own brain? >:(
Cause you didn't check the second post on the first page.

Gralamin
2006-01-07, 05:03 PM
Cause you didn't check the second post on the first page.
It is diffuclut for some people to see when they are not using their brain (no offense intended)

Genius comic Giant.
hmm Durkon is probably the only one who as any good offensive spells ready if gets bad. (eg thor's Might)

Evik
2006-01-07, 05:50 PM
hmm still seems a little slow on the loads... but hey i can get on now :D

I am glad the party pulled it together and managed to slide by this spot of trouble...bout time something went right for them

now eagerly awaiting Belkar's "retrieval" lol
i hope he has a good hide check! but if he is still wearing that ring you can probably smell him out LOL

aaronbourque
2006-01-07, 05:54 PM
The Sense Motive skill, which is Wisdom-based.


Something to keep in mind is that there's no language to indicate the Sense Motive is a passive skill, like Spot or Listen. You have to Actively Sense Motive to tell if someone is lying. It's entirely possible that Miko, fully trusting Durkon, wouldn't have made a Sense Motive check against anything he said. Even if what he said was that a giant elephant fell into the cell block, the impact of which caused the locks to open by themselves and then the elephant jumped out of the jail room and quickly patched up the hole in the ceiling so expertly, even years of magical analysis would not find where the hole had once been.

Or something even more ridiculous.

Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; "So, Elephants with Class Levels, is what you're saying. Be careful everybody. Killer Elephants with Class Levels on the loose." "Again?

idksocrates
2006-01-07, 07:20 PM
Something to keep in mind is that there's no language to indicate the Sense Motive is a passive skill, like Spot or Listen. You have to Actively Sense Motive to tell if someone is lying.

I'd have to disagree there. I think that you can notice someone lying without actively chekcing just as easily as you can spot something without actively looking.

Xander77
2006-01-07, 08:39 PM
It's in the second post. *grumbles about low Spot modifiers*Hey, I make low Spot modifiers look Good. You just can't tell, 'cause...

Coffee_Dragon
2006-01-07, 08:48 PM
All this cheering for Belkar and hatred for Miko reminds me slightly of David Brin's stated reasons for writing The Postman. Here's a good question for a poll: would you rather live in a community of Belkars, or in a community of Mikos? I submit you'd have to be more or less confused to choose the former.

I-is that a flame?

Mike_G
2006-01-07, 10:19 PM
All this cheering for Belkar and hatred for Miko reminds me slightly of David Brin's stated reasons for writing The Postman. Here's a good question for a poll: would you rather live in a community of Belkars, or in a community of Mikos? I submit you'd have to be more or less confused to choose the former.

I-is that a flame?


If I lived in a community of Mikos, I would find Belkar and make short jokes at him until he put me out of my misery.

Belkar is a great character. He's funny, and his attitude and actions make for great showbiz. I don't think people liking the character means they want to hang with him. People loved the character of Darth Vader more than Uncle Owen, but see what happens when you whine to a Sith lord about your chores.

Miko rubs my nerves like a cheese grater. I hate her holier than thou, my way or the highway attitude, and she has blown off criticism, not of her goals and duty, but of her conduct with regards to the other characters, which smacks of inflexibility and closed mindedness, not to mention being blind to any consideration that she might possibly be wrong about something. Her attitude when Roy tries to smooth over the friction with Varsuvius is typical of behavior that makes me want to pop her one.

Now, she's vital to the story as well, and her character is great for the plot, but, Paladin or not, she's an antagonist, and I have to agree with Elan.

She's mean, Roy.

Karellen
2006-01-07, 10:48 PM
As far as I can tell, the major thing that seperates Belkar from the rest of the Order of the Stick is that Belkar doesn't see any significant difference between killing nameless human mooks and killing miscellaneous sentient beings with green skin and fangs. Incidentally, I tend to agree. That being the case, I don't really see Belkar as being any more dangerous or problematic than any other member of the group; he likes to harvest body parts for a hobby, yes, but it doesn't render him a threat to the team, and as such, I see no reason not to cheer on him when he's doing what he does best. ;)

carnivore
2006-01-07, 11:02 PM
I am having trouble identifying Durkon's first half-truth, when he said "the five of us never left out cells." How is that a half-truth? That's an all-out lie, isn't it?

Karellen
2006-01-07, 11:09 PM
On the contrary. Durkon always stayed inside the cell. As such, the five of them, collectively, never left the cells. This is why Paladins and other agents of the law should put more points to Knowledge: Grammar. ;)

Devils_Advocate
2006-01-07, 11:14 PM
aaronbourque, the description of the Sense Motive skill doesn't indicate that Sense Motive is ever used passively, but the description of Bluff does. "A Bluff check is opposed by the target’s Sense Motive check." Good thing, too. It would be pretty absurd if it never occurred to you that someone might be lying unless you actively assessed the level of honesty with which a statement was made. I mean, c'mon, to have class levels, wouldn't they have to be awakened elephants? How many of those do you see?

(And Durkon would still have to roll Bluff, because he is trying to deceive Miko. The skill is Bluff, not Lie.)

Exploiting loopholes is generally a rather Chaotic thing to do, I think. But being Lawful needn't require you to unfailingly adhere to the letter of a specific code. It's also important to recognize a code's intent, especially if you're Lawful Good. (This cuts to Roy's criticism of Miko.) Durkon recognizes that ratting out his friends won't actually help anyone, so he hides the truth as Lawfully (honestly) as possible. Say what you will about other things he's done, but it's hard to argue that he didn't handle this situation perfectly, I think.

Miko evidently trusts Durkon enough to believe that he wouldn't try to deceive someone without a good reason. And she's right about that. It's in her assessment that covering for his friends isn't a good reason that she's misguided. One could take her willingness to trust Durkon as evidence that she's not all that bad, really. But frankly, her blind trust of those who she perceives as being as honorable as her and her overzealous mistrust of those she thinks aren't are twin symptoms of her Lawful Stupidity.

Duskrider_Moogle
2006-01-07, 11:41 PM
Exploiting loopholes is generally a rather Chaotic thing to do, I think. But being Lawful needn't require you to unfailingly adhere to the letter of a specific code. It's also important to recognize a code's intent, especially if you're Lawful Good. (This cuts to Roy's criticism of Miko.)

I respectfully disagree. Chaotic would be breaking or disregarding the rules; exploiting a loophole would be a lawful way to go. Respecting the letter of the law is lawful neutral, respecting the spirit (and also the letter) is lawful good, respecting the letter while actively subverting the spirit for one's own gain is lawful evil. That's my two cents.

Darkspear
2006-01-08, 12:00 AM
On the contrary. Durkon always stayed inside the cell. As such, the five of them, collectively, never left the cells. This is why Paladins and other agents of the law should put more points to Knowledge: Grammar. ;)

And he said that he can. He never actually does.

Grey Watcher
2006-01-08, 12:03 AM
I respectfully disagree. Chaotic would be breaking or disregarding the rules; exploiting a loophole would be a lawful way to go. Respecting the letter of the law is lawful neutral, respecting the spirit (and also the letter) is lawful good, respecting the letter while actively subverting the spirit for one's own gain is lawful evil. That's my two cents.

Well, admittedly, this is getting into a side discussion on the nature of alignments and such, but that statement assumes that the spirit of the law is Good. The Lawful Evil definitely uphold the spirit of the law when the law is intended to protect the powerful and oppress the weak.

EDIT: I've created a thread in Gaming to discuss this point: The Letter, the Spirit, and the Law (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=gaming;action=display;num=1136699044 ).

Justin_Bacon
2006-01-08, 12:52 AM
I respectfully disagree. Chaotic would be breaking or disregarding the rules; exploiting a loophole would be a lawful way to go. Respecting the letter of the law is lawful neutral, respecting the spirit (and also the letter) is lawful good, respecting the letter while actively subverting the spirit for one's own gain is lawful evil. That's my two cents.

Your good/evil distinctions depend entirely on the law in question.

To take an extreme example: A law in Nazi Germany requiring that all Jews are required to turn themselves in. It's clearly absurd to suggest that a Jew avoiding capture by exploiting a loophole in the detection procedures is lawful evil; or that someone following the letter and spirit of such a law is lawful good.

Justin Alexander Bacon
http://www.thealexandrian.net

Antina
2006-01-08, 04:38 AM
Speaking of low spot checks:
Maybe you missed to come through my Durkon-Idea - or is it so baaad ;) ?

So again: In HIS opinion (OOTS´ 1.st fight with Miko) it was totally Thors cleary expressed (Durkon didn´t know, that his mighty god was just having fun being drunk) will, to "NOT FIGHT MIKO".
If he wouldn´t have mislead Miko this time, they would have had a big bad fight (the cell doors still being open...).

And of course he likes his party to. :)
This time he gladly can kill two birds with one stone ;)

rosebud
2006-01-08, 05:11 AM
To take an extreme example: A law in Nazi GermanyNot to mention Goodwin's Law...(Sorry, couldn't resist. =)

Alfryd
2006-01-08, 06:34 AM
While she has her bouts of cluelessness, she also had her moments of deception in her speech with to the ogre tribe.[/quoe]
No, the speech served a dual purpose, but she never said anything in the speech that belied the purpose of concentrating them in an area small enough to scorch.
[quote]Some dislike Miko based upon her ACTIONS and some hate her based on her personality. Her perspective doesn't excuse the former.
Actually, there have been lengthy discussions to the effect that her perspective (as in, limited information,) *does* excuse her actions.

For everyone else, she has been disrespectful and distrustful.
That's not entirely fair. She was quite polite toward the team whenever not directly aggravated.

Haley's eagerness to help the dirt famer suggested she was not a simple rogue and had motives and honor to be found.
That, or she was just following Roy's lead. Miko has a very dim view of any honour system that accomodates sneak attacks.

She was prejudiced against V from the beginning. But she attacked V first even when Roy and V were trying to talk with her.
Because s/he's the primary spellcaster! And tried to charge her with explosive runes! Does this not strike you as rude?

I don't see a reserved paladin like her openly speak of a "romantic relationship".
You think someone devoted to honesty and frankness should keep it secret?

It is diffuclut for some people to see when they are not using their brain (no offense intended)
What was intended?

I hate her holier than thou [attitude].
Newsflash. Paladins *ARE* holier than thou.

...are twin symptoms of her Lawful Stupidity.
Lawful Stupid means bending over backwards for your foes' benefit. Miko's problem, on the other hand, is that her definitions of 'Lawful' and 'Good' are identical. It simply never occurs to her that the two could clash. Hence, her line of reasoning runs thusly:
I am Lawful Good.
Durkon helped me.
Therefore Durkon is Lawful Good.
Therefore Durkon could never lie to me, even through omission, or the sun would explode.

The Glyphstone
2006-01-08, 07:06 AM
Your good/evil distinctions depend entirely on the law in question.

To take an extreme example: A law in Nazi Germany requiring that all Jews are required to turn themselves in. It's clearly absurd to suggest that a Jew avoiding capture by exploiting a loophole in the detection procedures is lawful evil; or that someone following the letter and spirit of such a law is lawful good.

Justin Alexander Bacon
http://www.thealexandrian.net


And thus Godwin's Law comes in right on schedule. This argument/thread is officially downhill from here. :)

Muzzleflash
2006-01-08, 09:31 AM
Yay for Durkon!

Have rawbear forward me the IPs of the machines in question. Taking over ircbots has been a hobby of mine for years, and I can usually hijack and wreak havok on pretty much any botnet after an hour or two of ripping all of the information out of the bot's little executable file guts.

If it was a DDoS, anyway. Could have just been a services on the box hosting GITP taking a dump, many hosts will explain an issue that was actually their fault as an attack.

Sebastian
2006-01-08, 09:55 AM
Excellent post. But I wouldn't waste your breath. You see, people here will completely hate Miko until the day that she dies, or the strip ends (whichever comes first). And I don't mean that they 'dislike' her, I mean they HATE her. Unfortunately that's just the way it goes. Yes, it's a bit hypocritical to hate Miko based on the fact that she doesn't consider the OOTS' point of view, while in turn completely ignoring Miko's point of view... but that's another discussion.


I don't hate Miko, I just think she should not be a Paladin.
Frankly I'll be glad if she lose her paladinhood, she probably would be a more agreeable charaacter once she get rid of a certain class feature (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=223). :)

Ilaun_Undil
2006-01-08, 11:24 AM
darn the attack of the DoS.

anywho, glad to see that Miko is still as Nieve as usual. our friends might be in trouble. also the person who indicated that the creature in the shadow is Shojo, is either a crazy or a brilliant. it has yet to be seen.

As for me I think it is a drawf, mainly Durkon's Father.

munehiro
2006-01-08, 12:26 PM
There was a rather amusing episode when a Danish Bicycle star Bjarne Riss, who won the Tour de France was asked whether he'd ever used doping. Rather than lying like any sensible person he answered "I've never been tested positive" which I have no doubt whatsoever is absolutely true but might not be the whole truth. This obviously clued everyone with a functional brain in on the fact that he had used doping. Particularly after he repeated this unconvincing denial 4 or 5 times, before finally issuing a clear denial (AKA lie), after which the journalists who had previously expressed concern over his aversions joyously proclaimed that it was nice that we got that question out of the way, and now knew that he had never used doping :P. If he had lied people might have believed him, but by choosing to tell a half truth instead, he gave his game away.

Well... i know i'm off topic here, but i'd like to point out that what he said is absolutely correct, and i'm more convinced about someone that tells "never be found positive" than "never taken any".

Why? because almost everything in sport is considered doping. Even common drugs for a simple flu, and you could be found positive only because you took something to stop coughing. Riding on a bicycle for 200 km is hard, very hard. Anything you can take and is not in the list of drugs considered doping is good, and you can bet it is used.

Barely stated, Riss said the exact truth. And it admitted he took something which is _not_ classified as doping, as anyone else in the Tour. If he drank coffee, indeed it can be considered doping from the human point of view (you feel better, coffee makes you awake) but not from the sport point of view.

Wilsonism
2006-01-08, 01:47 PM
First off, love the strip. Durkon dancing around his alignment was great.

Yeah, I thought the lag was from everyone being eager to see the new strip and not a DOS attack. Let us all pray to banjo to smite these evildoers.

rosebud
2006-01-08, 02:28 PM
That's not entirely fair.Yes, I'm being harsh, but so is Miko. :)


Paladins *ARE* holier than thou.Perhaps it is undue influence from Moon's Paksenarrion, but paladins should be likable. It helps make them effective in leadership. Miko was ineffective. (She is an interesting character, though. With potential.)


bending over backwards for your foes' benefit.Why then did she respond to their requests for clarification on the initial meeting (#200) with an attack and ignored further requests for clarification?


Miko's problem, on the other hand, is that her definitions of 'Lawful' and 'Good' are identical. It simply never occurs to her that the two could clash.It's possible to be both good and lawful without being ascetic. Asceticism taints the interaction. She also (seemingly) comes from a very insulated background and a social class structure.

I don't accept the Good iff Lawful claim with respect to her (she has additional constraints), but I guess I'd be willing to accept the explanation that not Lawful implies not good (or perhaps not honorable/trustworthy). That would make at least Haley and Elan suspect.

As to romance, I don't see her getting into a relationship so easily. Paladins and relationships don't easily mix. Especially for one who doesn't care to bathe (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=225). :)

As to Durkon, again it didn't matter in the end to Miko what the whole truth was. The outcome -- them coming with her to Shojo was the same. (In the same way that it didn't seem to bother her to investigate what actually happened at the hotel.)

Zink
2006-01-08, 03:36 PM
Why then did she respond to their requests for clarification on the initial meeting (#200) with an attack and ignored further requests for clarification?

As far as Miko could understand, their request for clarification was not for clarification at all; while Roy was probably going to say (notice that he didn't finish his sentence) "we're not surrendering without a little explanation" or something along those lines, Miko by that point had strong evidence that Roy was indeed an Evil doer (Detect Evil, gathered testimonies), and thus it was safe for her to assume that he was saying "we're not surrendering without a little of a fight", which is even more common an expression; thus, as miko saw it, the OotS were going to attack anyway any second, and there's not much point in losing her surprise round, so she didn't wait to hear the rest of Roy's sentence. Tough luck.

After the fight began, and before it ended, the party did not request more clarifications, and there was nothing for her to ignore. Well, there was one attempt by Roy to ask for clarifications - but from Miko's point of view, Roy was Evil and started this battle when he was given the option to surrender; he must also be aware of his crimes; therefore, the explanation for his "requests for clarification" could only be that he was trying to decieve her to gain a slight advantage in the fight (this can explain why she refered to this query as undignified). Therefore, it would be unwise of her to answer it, as it would only distract her from her goal and aid her enemy.
I don't accept the Good iff Lawful claim with respect to her (she has additional constraints), but I guess I'd be willing to accept the explanation that not Lawful implies not good (or perhaps not honorable/trustworthy). That would make at least Haley and Elan suspect.



As to romance, I don't see her getting into a relationship so easily. Paladins and relationships don't easily mix. Especially for one who doesn't care to bathe (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=225). :)
Pfffft. Baths are over rated. I mean, there aren't even rules for bathing, and I don't recall ever reading that irregular bathing grants you a charisma penalty.

rosebud
2006-01-08, 04:10 PM
All this cheering for Belkar and hatred for Miko reminds me slightly of David BrinMore like David and Goliath, except this David is a psychopath killer. Well, okay, maybe not David and Goliath. But Belkar is the underdog (physically as a hafling, situationally as a prisoner) and Miko is the authority figure.


would you rather live in a community of Belkars, or in a community of Mikos?Would you rather have your throat slit or be burned at the stake? Neither is a particularly pleasant prospect. Also, a community of Belkars misses his appeal as an outsider.

In a world operating under laws of comic physics, morality is not necessarily the same thing. Humor is vital. Here's a question for you: who do you find funnier and laugh at (or with) more: Belkar or Miko?

Mind you, I can appreciate Miko and I also hold out hope for her, but I'm also perfectly happy to call her on her faults. In contrast, Belkar doesn't have any pretense of being, err, human. Expectations are different.


I-is that a flame?The Voice of Mod: No reason to give an example of a flame, your following explanation will suffice.

Ad hominem or personal attacks like the above would qualify as flames. As would heated discussions where both parties took it overly seriously. Arguing your point reasonably, even passionately is just a normal conversational thread. If one party is baiting the others, it would be a troll. Sometimes sarcasm is mistaken for a flame, not that anything in this post is remotely sarcastic. ::)

evileeyore
2006-01-08, 04:43 PM
As far as Miko could understand, their request for clarification was not for clarification at all; while Roy was probably going to say (notice that he didn't finish his sentence) "we're not surrendering without a little explanation" or something along those lines, Miko by that point had strong evidence that Roy was indeed an Evil doer (Detect Evil, gathered testimonies), and thus it was safe for her to assume that he was saying "we're not surrendering without a little of a fight", which is even more common an expression; thus, as miko saw it, the OotS were going to attack anyway any second, and there's not much point in losing her surprise round, so she didn't wait to hear the rest of Roy's sentence. Tough luck.
As well she may be entirely familiar the concept of stalling for time.

I've LARPed for years and discovered this oft underrated tactic can be imployed to amazing effects. To the extent that in one Fantasy Boffer LARP I had developed four tactics for my 'gang'. Each was named after my 'opening line' and immediately told the group what to do:

1) "Wait! I don't think you've..." Regardless of what I say after this my group would begin encircling the antagonist. When I would finish with "...so what do you have to say?" they'd attack.

2) "I'm sure we can come to an agreement" the group wold look out for anyone sneaking up on us as well as keep an eye the enemy.

3) "Have you ever..." was the 'assault now, don't bother with getting fancy' order. I rarely got to even finish my sentence on account of being in the thick of it.

4) "Perhpas you've overlooked..." is the order to scatter by prearranged order and regroup at a safe location if possible. Every man for himself type deal.


Anything else and the gang would play it be ear. However stalling time is always usefull. If V or Durkon had the Still and Silent Spell feats, they could be casting potentially usefull combat buffs during the stall. Haley or Belkar could be sneaking into position to flank or sneak attack. Elan could be preparing a devestatingly useless class feature... See what I mean?

By attacking as soon as Miko had confirmation they were choosing Death, she avvioded that entirely.

Sir_Fredward
2006-01-08, 10:19 PM
Just to go back a bit...It would've been cool to do a wide shot of the burning inn with the owner yelling at the OOTS, "NOOO! YOU MANIACS! YOU BURNED IT UP!" Either that or the paladin could have had a total breakdown and yelled that. Either way.

Nice to see Haley actually do something rogue-ish (like Istielthia said) and I'm on Durkon's side. I wanna know what's up with his previous convictions...

Ilaun_Undil
2006-01-09, 04:56 AM
, "NOOO! YOU MANIACS! YOU BURNED IT UP!"...
Reference to Planet of the Apes original? in that case it would have to look like the statue of Liberty.

anyway hopefully everything goes ok for Belkar.

Alfryd
2006-01-09, 05:08 AM
It's possible to be both good and lawful without being ascetic.
I never said Miko was correct in her evaluation. But this is her understanding of the terms. Provided there's enough of an overlap with the truth, she doesn't violate paladin status.

As to romance, I don't see her getting into a relationship so easily. Paladins and relationships don't easily mix. Especially for one who doesn't care to bathe.
Well, y'see a relationship with Miko is like climbing a big, icy mountain. There are two reactions to the prospect- you either want to do it, or you want to stay the hell away. Nobody thinks- 'yeah, that's tempting, but it might be hard.' The difficulty *is* the attraction.
Besides, Belkar considers all the party to be malodorous. I wouldn't call this conclusive evidence.

Here's a question for you: who do you find funnier and laugh at (or with) more: Belkar or Miko?
At present, it's roughly a draw. But I do find myself peculiarly torn between having Miko or Belkar in the group. The two very likely will not be able to co-exist indefinitely, especially after Belkar killed a guardsman escaping. Miko can hardly just let that go, even if there weren't irreconcilable alignment differences.

"NOOO! YOU MANIACS! YOU BURNED IT UP!" Either that or the paladin could have had a total breakdown and yelled that. Either way.
Yes please. Also, BB King's 'Chains and Things' occured to me reading the strip after.

I've LARPed for years and discovered [stalling for time] can be imployed to amazing effects.
EE, you do realise that if I ever uncover your true identity I will have to hunt you down. Nothing personal, it's just for the greater good.

rosebud
2006-01-09, 05:40 AM
I never said Miko was correct in her evaluation. But this is her understanding of the terms.Ah, okay. That's much different than I read your "excuse her actions" comment. Language is an imperfect thing, both as written and as read. :)

Do you think it is in her interests to change?

Sebastian
2006-01-09, 05:43 AM
After the fight began, and before it ended, the party did not request more clarifications,


Wrong! Roy asked explicitely of what crimes she was talking about and her response could be summed up with "shut up and die!".
I had some reservation before but further analysis make me say that if I was the GM that fight would have been enough to make of Miko a simple fighter-monk. (note also how after Durkon explained things to her she didn't even tried to apologize to Roy. something simple like "I'm sorry if Itried to kill you because I wrongly believed you to be evil without even give you a chance to explain yourself" would have been enough.

CarpeAmentum
2006-01-09, 07:02 AM
Ok, I have to address this.

Sense Motive is used in the following cases:

Active : to determine whether someone is trustworthy.

Passive : as opposed to a Bluff check

However, a Bluff check is only required when the character is LYING. Decieving someone through technically true statements does not require a Bluff check, and because of this the other person does not recieve a Sense Motive check to oppose it.

kierthos
2006-01-09, 08:00 AM
I don't believe that this has been pointed out yet, but one of the reasons that Miko called Elan an honorless pig is that bards have to be non-Lawful. (Plus, we know for a fact that Elan is Chaotic Good.) And given Elan's activities since Miko first met the OOTS, it's a fair guess that she's twigged to his alignment as well.

As for the alignment of the rest of the OOTS (I'm sure this has been speculated on a number of times, or even set in stone):

Belkar: Chaotic Evil (duh), but a fun kind.
Durkon: Lawful Good
Vaarsuvius: Neutral
Elan: Chaotic Good (living up to what all my old GMs hated about Chaotic Good)
Haley: Neutral Good
Roy: Lawful Neutral

Just my thoughts on it...

Lord Herman
2006-01-09, 08:27 AM
Never expected giantitp would be attacked by a disgruntled operating system...

evileeyore
2006-01-09, 09:13 AM
EE, you do realise that if I ever uncover your true identity I will have to hunt you down. Nothing personal, it's just for the greater good.Of course. At which point I'll open your eyes and bring you into the light of the True Roleplaying Experience (TM) that is (da-da-DAHN!) The LARP!

rosebud
2006-01-09, 09:17 AM
As for the alignment of the rest of the OOTSThere's an entire thread (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1123097648 ) on this, as mentioned in the FAQ. Of course, aliignments may change over time, and it's The Giant's World, so he can do as he pleases.

But, so far:
#11 -> Good(R,D,H,V,E), Evil(B)
#230 -> Chaotic(B) -> B=CE
#54 -> Pure Heart(R,E,H) -> (CG or LG)(R,E,H)
Bard(E) -> !Lawful(E) -> E=CG
Rogue(H) -> !LG(H) -> H=CG
#231 -> R=Miko=LG
#84 (among others) -> D=LG

The thread states no law alignment for V.

PS Welcome to the boards! :D

Zantetsuken_Kokoro
2006-01-09, 09:36 AM
Miko is Lawful Good and in proper adherence to her paladinhood.

But this just goes to show that lawful good has just as much potential to be tyrants and megalomaniacs as an evil aligned person.

Also, if anyone played 2nd Edition Planescape, they remember that the
faction called the Harmoniom started out by all the lawful races on their planet of origin getting together and committing ethnic cleansing and genocide against all the chaotic races i.e. elves, pixies, etc. The leader of the faction was a lawful good paladin who was just as much a hardass and tyrant as can be, and presumably knew of the unforgivable past of his forefathers. So even Lawful Good can be guilty of the unforgivable.

Jothki
2006-01-09, 11:35 PM
Miko is Lawful Good and in proper adherence to her paladinhood.

No, proper Paladins uphold Good over Lawful. Miko seems to view Lawful as more important.

Alfryd
2006-01-10, 07:18 AM
No, proper Paladins uphold Good over Lawful. Miko seems to view Lawful as more important.
She can't distinguish the two.

Do you think it is in her interests to change?
That is very likely.

#11 -> Good(R,D,H,V,E), Evil(B)
#230 -> Chaotic(B) -> B=CE
#54 -> Pure Heart(R,E,H) -> (CG or LG)(R,E,H)
Bard(E) -> !Lawful(E) -> E=CG
Rogue(H) -> !LG(H) -> H=CG
#231 -> R=Miko=LG
#84 (among others) -> D=LG
I believe it's been pointed out that as a follower of CG Thor, Durkon can't be lawful. Frankly I don't think that makes much sense in light of his conduct, but that could be said of several other characters. Haley and V have been largely morally neutral in terms of behaviour.
Why can't the pure of heart be NG? I though the non-lawful rogue criteria had been relaxed.

...note also how after Durkon explained things to her she didn't even tried to apologize to Roy.
Because she believed her actions to be fully justified, based on what she knew at the time. Of course, an apology would have done no harm either, but I think she was slightly ticked off with Roy.

Caledonian
2006-01-10, 08:40 AM
This is NOT the Deities and Demigods "Thor" - Durkon's alignment is clearly Lawful Good.

Max_Sinister
2006-01-10, 09:48 AM
Maybe this Thor is NG, as a compromise?

rosebud
2006-01-10, 11:13 AM
I believe it's been pointed out that as a follower of CG Thor, Durkon can't be lawful.Comic exemption? :D

Haley and V have been largely morally neutral in terms of behaviour.They seem so (especially V), but I'm partly quoting that thread. (Feel free to follow up there.)


Why can't the pure of heart be NG?I don't claim to be any expert. Just a combination of my observations, the faq, and some rulesets. Haley has seemed to shift some over time from when she lifted the green potion from Belkar for Elan.


Of course, an apology would have done no harm either, but I think she was slightly ticked off with Roy.She admitted fault to Durkon, but not Roy. Roy was being led by his pants at this point, but ego should not have been a consideration for her.