How Does Master of Flies Work?

[Doctor Despair]

A few threads recently have referenced the Master of Flies prc, and so my curiosity led me to look at them, and I've ended up with more questions than I started with. First, two similar abilities are present in the Master of Vipers (Serpent Kingdoms) and Vermin Keeper (Underdark):

Swarm Shape (Su): When the master of vipers reaches 9th level, his alternate form ability expands to allow the form of a viper swarm (see Fiend Folio page 172). This ability enables the master of vipers to move through tiny holes where a foe cannot follow, as well as attack as a swarm.

Swarm Form (Su): At 10th level, a vermin keeper can use his wild shape to assume the form of any vermin swarm (any swarm whose constituent creatures are of the vermin type).

These prcs use alternate form and wildshape (which is keyed off of alternate form) respectively, and both of which therefore specifically do not gain their new form's subtype or special qualities. You'd become a swarm with no swarm traits, however that would work. Now, however, the prc in question functions a little differently (and much more verbosely). The Master of Flies (Savage Species) gains:

Swarm Shape (Su): Beginning at 2nd level, a master of flies can take the form of a swarm of vicious little vermin and return to her own form. This effect is similar to that of a summon swarm spell, except that the swarm is of the same size category as the caster (and it has the same face statistic as the caster). The master of flies can choose the type of vermin from the table above. In swarm shape, she can move at a speed of 15 feet, or up to 45 feet if the swarm flies (poor maneuverability).

The swarm has the same number of hit points as the original creature and can be damaged by fire and area-effect spells and abilities. If the swarm is dispersed (by gust of wind, for example), the master of flies must return to her own shape. To do so, the dispersed creatures must first coalesce (at the swarm's speed); the master of flies must take a standard action on the following round to transform.

A master of flies can use this ability once per day at 2nd level and more times per day at 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th, and 9th level, as shown on Table 7—3: The Master of Flies.

At 5th level, a master of flies is able to take the shape of a swarm identical to that produced by an insect plague spell, except that the swarm can be no more than one size larger than the master of flies (you can choose the face if more than one is available). This swarm can move at half the master of flies' normal speed and can fly at the same speed (clumsy maneuverability).

At 8th level, a master of flies is able to take the shape of a swarm identical to that produced by a creeping doom spell, except that the swarm can be no more than two size categories larger than the master of flies (you can choose the face statistic if more than one is possible). This mass of vermin can only move at 10 feet per round and cannot fly.

In all other respects, the swarm shape ability is identical to the druid's wild shape ability (see Chapter 3 of the Player's Handbook).

This ability is also based on wild shape, but is ALSO based on these various spells that summon swarms. That initiates some confusion on its own. The qualities that are distinct from wildshape are:



The effect functions as Summon Swarm
The swarm is the same size as the caster
The swarm has the same "face statistic" as the caster
The swarm's speed is 15, or 45 (poor maneuverability)
The swarm's hp is equal to yours at the time of casting
The swarm can be damaged by fire and AOE effects
The swarm can be dispersed (such as by wind)



Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Brd 2, Drd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: One swarm of bats, rats, or spiders
Duration: Concentration + 2 rounds
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a swarm of bats, rats, or spiders (your choice), which attacks all other creatures within its area. (You may summon the swarm so that it shares the area of other creatures.) If no living creatures are within its area, the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest creature as best it can. The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel.

Arcane Material Component
A square of red cloth.

So as nothing contradicted the spell effect in the Swarm Shape ability, you attack and pursue all creatures and lose control over how and where you move. However, it seems somewhat explicit (based on how it needs to specify that you take damage from fire and AOEs) that you gain all the physical qualities of the swarm except as noted. This presumably at least includes swarm traits. Unfortunately, it looks like the ability would last for concentration + 2 rounds, so you'll need to work around losing concentration.

I'm not sure what a "face statistic" is. Skills/bab/saves/etc? Regardless, everything not specified is as wildshape:

At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night.

Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet.

The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.

A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)


So we lose the ability to speak (and therefore cast spells unless they lack verbal components, we use Silent Spell, or we use Surrogate Spellcasting. Our gear melds when we change form. Using the ability is a standard that doesn't trigger AOOs. Apart from this, it functions as Alternate Form. Man, what a rabbit hole this ability sends you down.

A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume one or more specific alternate forms. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using alternate form reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template. This ability works much like the polymorph spell, except that the creature is limited to the forms specified, and does not regain any hit points for changing its form. Assuming an alternate form results in the following changes to the creature:

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.

The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature) movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its original form.

The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.

The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.

The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or supernatural attacks of its new form.

The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.

Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses. The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.

The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.

Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped

So it appears you'd get a +10 to disguise to appear as a swarm, but true seeing foils it.

You retains your type and subtype, and gain the aquatic subtype if relevant. This may be a rare situation where you would have two creature types (e.g., you gain the appropriate vermin/animal type corresponding to your swarm, as it functions as the summon X line, but don't have any mechanism making you lose your old type). You presumably gain the swarm subtype, as creatures explicitly can have more than one subtype.

If killed, you revert to your natural form

If it weren't already apparent, you cannot become a templated swarm

You lose your natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and physical ability scores. You also lose Ex special attacks if they aren't from class levels. You also lose breath attacks and gaze attacks.

You gain the swarm's natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, Ex special attacks, and physical scores. A lot of this may be redundant to the abilities' "functions as Summon Swarm" line.

You retain your original forms SLAs, SuAs, special qualities, and ability to cast spells (that you can use in spite of your lack of speech).

You retain a number of game statistics of your original form. Would these be the "face stats" referred to in the earlier ability? If so, this comment may he redundant.

Then, at MoF 5, your ability models after Insect Plague:

Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Clr 5, Drd 5
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Effect: One swarm of locusts per three levels, each of which must be adjacent to at least one other swarm
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
You summon a number of swarms of locusts (one per three levels, to a maximum of six swarms at 18th level). The swarms must be summoned so that each one is adjacent to at least one other swarm (that is, the swarms must fill one contiguous area). You may summon the locust swarms so that they share the area of other creatures. Each swarm attacks any creatures occupying its area. The swarms are stationary after being summoned, and won’t pursue creatures that flee.


You are larger, your speed improves, and you must remain stationary (rendering thr speed somewhat moot). Worse, though, is the duration, which is now 1 min/level instead of concentration. Technically, you could become TWO swarms here though, which raises some issues. As two swarms, are you entitled to two sets of actions? Does that mean you can take two full-round actions, or cast two spells?

Then, at level 8, the MoF ability modifies to emulate Creeping Doom:

Conjuration (Summoning)
Level: Drd 7
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)/ 100 ft.; see text
Effect: One swarm of centipedes per two levels
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
When you utter the spell of creeping doom, you call forth a mass of centipede swarms (one per two caster levels, to a maximum of ten swarms at 20th level), which need not appear adjacent to one another.

You may summon the centipede swarms so that they share the area of other creatures. The swarms remain stationary, attacking any creatures in their area, unless you command the creeping doom to move (a standard action). As a standard action, you can command any number of the swarms to move toward any prey within 100 feet of you. You cannot command any swarm to move more than 100 feet away from you, and if you move more than 100 feet from any swarm, that swarm remains stationary, attacking any creatures in its area (but it can be commanded again if you move within 100 feet).

The duration is still capped to 1 min/level sadly, but unlike Insect Plague, we can actually move! We may only be able to move as a standard action (ugh), but it's something. Once again, we can become multiple creatures (three in this case). Does this triple our action economy for a while? Maybe.

So I suppose I'll conclude with my lasting questions:


Am I interpreting these interactions correctly?
What are "face stats"?
Does being two or three swarms allow you two or three sets of actions for the round?

[Venger]

Savage species is a 3.0 book. Back in 3.0, wild shape was keyed off of polymorph which, among other differences, changes your type. It was changed to being keyed off of alternate form instead in 3.5. Most of the things you mention cascade from this. As to your questions:

Your reading of the class's various features is basically correct.

Face stats refer to the face/reach rules, another relic of 3.0 that have by and large been discarded in the 3.5 update aside from a handful of relics such as beholders. It would designate whether a monster was "long" or "tall" like a giant would fill one cube horizontally but two vertically or a horse would be one cube vertically but two horizontally and you had to pay attention to what cardinal direction a monster was facing for flanking purposes and such. It was complicated, terrible, and didn't come up that often so was discarded in the update. You can essentially ignore this in other words.

No. You are one character and have one pool of actions.

[Doctor Despair]

Savage species is a 3.0 book. Back in 3.0, wild shape was keyed off of polymorph which, among other differences, changes your type. It was changed to being keyed off of alternate form instead in 3.5. Most of the things you mention cascade from this. As to your questions:

Your reading of the class's various features is basically correct.


That's a fair point. The newer classes are keyed off of wild shape and alternate form, but as I pointed out, this class was designed around the idea that you gain the swarm traits of the creature. I suppose technically all it does it specify that you can be damaged by fire damage and AOE damage, which is also true of characters without swarm traits... Would you gain them from the prc? If not, the only way to get swarm traits that I can think of is to either:

* use MoMF or Enhance Wildshape with Vermin Keeper

* use True Mind Switch or some other body-swapping technique on a swarm with a hive mind



Face stats refer to the face/reach rules, another relic of 3.0 that have by and large been discarded in the 3.5 update aside from a handful of relics such as beholders. It would designate whether a monster was "long" or "tall" like a giant would fill one cube horizontally but two vertically or a horse would be one cube vertically but two horizontally and you had to pay attention to what cardinal direction a monster was facing for flanking purposes and such. It was complicated, terrible, and didn't come up that often so was discarded in the update. You can essentially ignore this in other words.


Fair point. Thanks for clarifying this. I do recall seeing rules for long/tall creatures in texts, but I never knew they went by that term. Thanks!



No. You are one character and have one pool of actions.

That makes the whole class feature rather awkward, as you only have one set of actions to handle three bodies, but at least they automatically deal damage with no action needed, I suppose.

[Gruftzwerg]

...

So as nothing contradicted the spell effect in the Swarm Shape ability, you attack and pursue all creatures and lose control over how and where you move. However, it seems somewhat explicit (based on how it needs to specify that you take damage from fire and AOEs) that you gain all the physical qualities of the swarm except as noted. This presumably at least includes swarm traits. Unfortunately, it looks like the ability would last for concentration + 2 rounds, so you'll need to work around losing concentration.
Imho the ability refers to the spells effect and not the spell's casting part.
When an ability says "works like spell x" you don't need to follow the casting introductions (V,S,M, concentration). This is not an SLA, thus it doesn't operate under spell/sla specific rules. Further you have to differentiate between summons and wild shape. Summons can come either with "control" or "without control". The spells effect if referring to the "without control" status of this summoning and not to an special magical effect of the spell that causes this.
Whereas you normally don't lose control while wild shaping.
The effect of the spell is to summon one of the available swarms, thus the effect of the ability is to turn you into a swarm similar to those.





I'm not sure what a "face statistic" is.
it's from 3.0 that is available as optional variant rule. But what is still important to note for base 3.5 is that due to having face stats, you can be flanked.




Skills/bab/saves/etc? Regardless, everything not specified is as wildshape:

At 5th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any Small or Medium animal and back again once per day. Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the alternate form special ability, except as noted here. The effect lasts for 1 hour per druid level, or until she changes back. Changing form (to animal or back) is a standard action and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. Each time you use wild shape, you regain lost hit points as if you had rested for a night.

Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet.

The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.

A druid loses her ability to speak while in animal form because she is limited to the sounds that a normal, untrained animal can make, but she can communicate normally with other animals of the same general grouping as her new form. (The normal sound a wild parrot makes is a squawk, so changing to this form does not permit speech.)


Strictly RAW the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion would apply, meaning the now errated Wild Shape would make the skill useless (without swarm traits..) and would leave the "you take fire and AoE dmg" part meaningless. I think we can agree that the swarm traits are intended to be included here.



So we lose the ability to speak (and therefore cast spells unless they lack verbal components, we use Silent Spell, or we use Surrogate Spellcasting. Our gear melds when we change form. Using the ability is a standard that doesn't trigger AOOs. Apart from this, it functions as Alternate Form. Man, what a rabbit hole this ability sends you down.

Natural Spell feat works too since it is a wild shape ability. Master of Many Forms lvl 1 ability would also work.
Gear meld can be prevented with the right magical items for wild shape.



You retains your type and subtype, and gain the aquatic subtype if relevant. This may be a rare situation where you would have two creature types (e.g., you gain the appropriate vermin/animal type corresponding to your swarm, as it functions as the summon X line, but don't have any mechanism making you lose your old type). You presumably gain the swarm subtype, as creatures explicitly can have more than one subtype.
First, this is mostly a part of the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion again. Second, you don't need to automatically lose traits due to type change. Symbiotic Template is another good example of this (turns the final creature into an arbritation but also gives all abilities, including traits, from the former two creatures.).



You lose your natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and physical ability scores. You also lose Ex special attacks if they aren't from class levels. You also lose breath attacks and gaze attacks.
Note that you sole lose form based breath attacks and gaze attacks. The ability doesn't suppress any class abilities (like DFA breath).


Then, at MoF 5, your ability models after Insect Plague:
...

You are larger, your speed improves, and you must remain stationary (rendering thr speed somewhat moot). Worse, though, is the duration, which is now 1 min/level instead of concentration. Technically, you could become TWO swarms here though, which raises some issues. As two swarms, are you entitled to two sets of actions? Does that mean you can take two full-round actions, or cast two spells?
The ability creates a specific exception (to the spell):
"This mass of vermin can only move at 10 feet per round and cannot fly."
Thus are not stationary.
The question about multiple swarms is really cheesy I know. But since Insect Plague scales with levels and not caster levels (? don't ask me why..) this would be RAW. And theoretically they would have two sets of actions and could cast (if you can cast in swarm form somehow). Really cheesy. But comparing the ability to the actual spell, it would have a similar power lvl and wouldn't be gamebreaking. Maybe this was really the intention here.. maybe..^^




Then, at level 8, the MoF ability modifies to emulate Creeping Doom:

The duration is still capped to 1 min/level sadly, but unlike Insect Plague, we can actually move! We may only be able to move as a standard action (ugh), but it's something. Once again, we can become multiple creatures (three in this case). Does this triple our action economy for a while? Maybe.
Again, I don't think the spell duration affect the ability duration (wild shape). This is not an SLA ability as said.
Here by RAW we wouldn't get any swarms, since the spell now specifies caster lvl and the ability sadly doesn't provide any caster lvl equivalent..
The prc is really poorly edited, I can only assume that it should be keyed of effective character lvl.
Finally, again the ability specifically sets the movement ability of the form, overriding anything the spell says.

______________

As Venger said, it's 3.0 stuff. So you always need to be careful when converting it to 3.5

[Doctor Despair]

Imho the ability refers to the spells effect and not the spell's casting part.
When an ability says "works like spell x" you don't need to follow the casting introductions (V,S,M, concentration). This is not an SLA, thus it doesn't operate under spell/sla specific rules. Further you have to differentiate between summons and wild shape. Summons can come either with "control" or "without control". The spells effect if referring to the "without control" status of this summoning and not to an special magical effect of the spell that causes this.
Whereas you normally don't lose control while wild shaping.
The effect of the spell is to summon one of the available swarms, thus the effect of the ability is to turn you into a swarm similar to those.

...

The ability creates a specific exception (to the spell):
"This mass of vermin can only move at 10 feet per round and cannot fly."
Thus are not stationary.


I suppose under a very technical reading, it says: "The caster has no control over its target or direction of travel." You are not the caster; you are the swarm. Therefore, you could have "control" over those things. Additionally, as you said, the spells do give you an explicit movement speed which is different (and worse) than that of a standard swarm, which might support that reading. However, I do think the rules text for the swarm's behavior has meaning. If you didn't take an action to do otherwise (exercising the control you, as a character, have over yourself), I think the way it's written would cause you to behave as the swarm normally would.


Imho the ability refers to the spells effect and not the spell's casting part.
When an ability says "works like spell x" you don't need to follow the casting introductions (V,S,M, concentration). This is not an SLA, thus it doesn't operate under spell/sla specific rules.


With regard to the duration, I'm unsure. If we don't use Summon Swarm to determine the duration, then we'd have to use wild shape, but Master of Flies doesn't actually grant wild shape. Would the duration be 1 hour then, using your Master of Flies level? Would it use your effective druid level? What if you didn't have an effective druid level, and had gained access to the prc through the shapechanger subtype or alternate form ability?



Strictly RAW the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion would apply, meaning the now errated Wild Shape would make the skill useless (without swarm traits..) and would leave the "you take fire and AoE dmg" part meaningless. I think we can agree that the swarm traits are intended to be included here.


Even without the RAI that the line regarding fire and AoE damage would be weird, the ability functions as Summon Swarm except as specified. The swarm you get with Summon Swarm has the swarm subtype; ergo, you should also have the swarm subtype.



Natural Spell feat works too since it is a wild shape ability. Master of Many Forms lvl 1 ability would also work.
Gear meld can be prevented with the right magical items for wild shape.


The ability in all other respects functions as wild shape, but it is not wild shape. Would Natural Spell work here? I'm inclined to say that yes, Natural Spell would work, but you couldn't use Swarm Shape to qualify for it. If you have the feat, Swarm Shape's functioning in all other respects like wild shape should let it utilize the benefit; however, if you don't have wild shape as a class feature, and instead have swarm shape, you wouldn't be eligible to select it.

With that said, I think Natural Spell is the superior option here, as a swarm would likely struggle to "hold" the material components or focuses that Surrogate Spellcasting still requires you to use.



Note that you sole lose form based breath attacks and gaze attacks. The ability doesn't suppress any class abilities (like DFA breath).


Fair point!



The question about multiple swarms is really cheesy I know. But since Insect Plague scales with levels and not caster levels (? don't ask me why..) this would be RAW. And theoretically they would have two sets of actions and could cast (if you can cast in swarm form somehow). Really cheesy. But comparing the ability to the actual spell, it would have a similar power lvl and wouldn't be gamebreaking. Maybe this was really the intention here.. maybe..^^


Now granted, this ability is gated behind five levels of non-casting, so the benefit of the double-action-economy wouldn't exactly match the Chronotyrm or whatever that's called. :p It's still funny to think about though. Maybe there's something else worth doing with those doubled actions. Possibly as an initiator, as we'd at least benefit somewhat from our levels there? I'd imagine binding and psionics would suffer as much as casting from the dropped subsystem levels.



Again, I don't think the spell duration affect the ability duration (wild shape). This is not an SLA ability as said.
Here by RAW we wouldn't get any swarms, since the spell now specifies caster lvl and the ability sadly doesn't provide any caster lvl equivalent..
The prc is really poorly edited, I can only assume that it should be keyed of effective character lvl.
Finally, again the ability specifically sets the movement ability of the form, overriding anything the spell says.

______________

As Venger said, it's 3.0 stuff. So you always need to be careful when converting it to 3.5

It really ought to have just been an SLA. That would solve 90% of these issues. However, supernatural abilities, I'm reading, do have effective caster levels.


Supernatural: Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in
an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance. Supernatural abilities cannot be dispelled. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities
may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is 10 + 1/2 the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).


Imho the ability refers to the spells effect and not the spell's casting part.
When an ability says "works like spell x" you don't need to follow the casting introductions (V,S,M, concentration). This is not an SLA, thus it doesn't operate under spell/sla specific rules. Further you have to differentiate between summons and wild shape. Summons can come either with "control" or "without control". The spells effect if referring to the "without control" status of this summoning and not to an special magical effect of the spell that causes this.
Whereas you normally don't lose control while wild shaping.
The effect of the spell is to summon one of the available swarms, thus the effect of the ability is to turn you into a swarm similar to those.



it's from 3.0 that is available as optional variant rule. But what is still important to note for base 3.5 is that due to having face stats, you can be flanked.




Strictly RAW the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion would apply, meaning the now errated Wild Shape would make the skill useless (without swarm traits..) and would leave the "you take fire and AoE dmg" part meaningless. I think we can agree that the swarm traits are intended to be included here.



Natural Spell feat works too since it is a wild shape ability. Master of Many Forms lvl 1 ability would also work.
Gear meld can be prevented with the right magical items for wild shape.



First, this is mostly a part of the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion again. Second, you don't need to automatically lose traits due to type change. Symbiotic Template is another good example of this (turns the final creature into an arbritation but also gives all abilities, including traits, from the former two creatures.).


Note that you sole lose form based breath attacks and gaze attacks. The ability doesn't suppress any class abilities (like DFA breath).


The ability creates a specific exception (to the spell):
"This mass of vermin can only move at 10 feet per round and cannot fly."
Thus are not stationary.
The question about multiple swarms is really cheesy I know. But since Insect Plague scales with levels and not caster levels (? don't ask me why..) this would be RAW. And theoretically they would have two sets of actions and could cast (if you can cast in swarm form somehow). Really cheesy. But comparing the ability to the actual spell, it would have a similar power lvl and wouldn't be gamebreaking. Maybe this was really the intention here.. maybe..^^




Again, I don't think the spell duration affect the ability duration (wild shape). This is not an SLA ability as said.
Here by RAW we wouldn't get any swarms, since the spell now specifies caster lvl and the ability sadly doesn't provide any caster lvl equivalent..
The prc is really poorly edited, I can only assume that it should be keyed of effective character lvl.
Finally, again the ability specifically sets the movement ability of the form, overriding anything the spell says.

______________

As Venger said, it's 3.0 stuff. So you always need to be careful when converting it to 3.5

Edit:

On a tangential note: here's a funny thought. A Dragonborn Telthor X uses Swarm Shape. They retain their incorporeal subtype and take on the swarm subtype.

They are immune to corporeal damage except for ghost touch weapons or, with a 50% miss chance, magic weapons and spells.

They are immune to weapon damage and targeted spells.

They are only subject to spells that have an AoE, and if they came from a corporeal source, they have a 50% chance to ignore that damage.

Throw on Dive for Cover, take a 1-level dip in Warblade to get int-to-reflex and Action Before Thought to more or less auto-pass a save every other round... You end up pretty close to invincible for all practical purposes. You can't suffocate as an incorporeal creature, you can't drown, you can't be locked down...

Of course, again, to be able to do this for any appreciable amount of time, it depends on how this ability works for its duration. If its duration is concentration, as the spell, you only need to dip two levels in it (and one for Warblade) to get the benefits. If it scales with effective druid level, it'd be pretty easy to keep this up for an adventuring day. If it scales only with the Master of Flies level, we'd be somewhat shoehorned into taking a ton of levels in the class, and our offensive capabilities would plummet. We could spam summon swarm 1/round to drown our enemies in vermin, but if they have any sort of DR, that would lose effectiveness quickly.

[Gruftzwerg]

With regard to the duration, I'm unsure. If we don't use Summon Swarm to determine the duration, then we'd have to use wild shape, but Master of Flies doesn't actually grant wild shape. Would the duration be 1 hour then, using your Master of Flies level? Would it use your effective druid level? What if you didn't have an effective druid level, and had gained access to the prc through the shapechanger subtype or alternate form ability?
Imho a reference to the Urban Druid's "Urban Shape" ability comes in handy. Urban Shape also says to work identically as Wild Shape (except the things mentioned there) and doesn't mention a duration or any kind of effective druid lvl for wild shape. Unless you want to rule out Urban Shape as a broken dysfunctional ability, we should assume that these abilities work of the class lvl that gives you the ability and have a duration in h/classLVL (as wild shape does).



The ability in all other respects functions as wild shape, but it is not wild shape. Would Natural Spell work here? I'm inclined to say that yes, Natural Spell would work, but you couldn't use Swarm Shape to qualify for it. If you have the feat, Swarm Shape's functioning in all other respects like wild shape should let it utilize the benefit; however, if you don't have wild shape as a class feature, and instead have swarm shape, you wouldn't be eligible to select it.

With that said, I think Natural Spell is the superior option here, as a swarm would likely struggle to "hold" the material components or focuses that Surrogate Spellcasting still requires you to use.
Imho to "function like wild shape" not sole does cover the ability itself. It also covers "all interactions to function like Wild Shape". There is no limitation like you want to imply here.



Now granted, this ability is gated behind five levels of non-casting, so the benefit of the double-action-economy wouldn't exactly match the Chronotyrm or whatever that's called. :p It's still funny to think about though. Maybe there's something else worth doing with those doubled actions. Possibly as an initiator, as we'd at least benefit somewhat from our levels there? I'd imagine binding and psionics would suffer as much as casting from the dropped subsystem levels.

Great ideas. But as said, this part is really so bad edited that you need to make any kind of assumption to solve the riddle.



It really ought to have just been an SLA. That would solve 90% of these issues. However, supernatural abilities, I'm reading, do have effective caster levels.

Nice catch. Leaves us with the problem how to rule multiple swarms...^^ I mean, do we split the casters HP (and therefore dmg??) over all the swarms? Or does each one have their own (full caster) HP and take dmg separately? Riddles, riddles and even more riddles.. :smalleek:




Edit:

On a tangential note: here's a funny thought. A Dragonborn Telthor X uses Swarm Shape. They retain their incorporeal subtype and take on the swarm subtype.

....
looks nice at first glance

edit:
Thurbane, where are you hiding?^^
Look at all the mess you caused by pointing us to this PRC.
Take some responsibility and show yourself! *joking*

[Doctor Despair]

looks nice at first glance
[/COLOR]

After some cursory thought, I've got an initial idea together:


Dragonborn Telthor Lesser Aasimar
1 City-Shape Druid - Ghostly Grasp
2 City-Shape Druid
3 City-Shape Druid - Skill Focus: Scry
4 City-Shape Druid
5 City-Shape Druid
6 City-Shape Druid - Natural Spell
7 City-Shape Druid
8 City-Shape Druid
9 City-Shape Druid - Exalted Wild Shape
10 City-Shape Druid
11 City-Shape Druid
12 City-Shape Druid - Dive for Cover
13 Divine Oracle
14 Divine Oracle
15 Warblade - Natural Bond
16 City-Shape Druid
17 City-Shape Druid
18 City-Shape Druid - Rashemi Elemental Summoning
19 City-Shape Druid
20 City-Shape Druid

It's a standard druid (albeit incorporeal) until level 12, and then it gets fun.

You can wildshape into an incorporeal celestial piranha swarm. This leaves you immune to weapon attacks, targeted spells, and you have a 50% chance to ignore AoE spells from corporeal sources. You get SR and various elemental resistances to help cover for your vulnerability to AoE effects, and you get Dive for Cover to reroll failed reflex saves 1/turn. Two levels of Divine Oracle later, you also have Evasion to negate AoE damage on a successful save. One level of Warblade adds into to saves, and lets you use your sky-high concentration check in lieu of your reflex, will, or fortitude saves (assuming we devote all 3 maneuvers known to that).

The end of the build is pretty generic druid good stuff, although I was considering putting in Reserve Feat: Fiery Burst or Summon Elemental for persistent damage while we out-last them in swarm form. I figured our spellcasting and animal companion would probably be sufficient. Something funny would be a one or two-level dip into fighter to get Constant Guardian to exchange places with allies and thwart enemy attacks, or overlap yourself with enemies to force the distraction DC.

[Gruftzwerg]

After some cursory thought, I've got an initial idea together:


It's a standard druid (albeit incorporeal) until level 12, and then it gets fun.


City-Shape Druid ? (does this exist? typo? I don't know it)
Or is it a standard druid as you said later?
I'm confused (sorry, just woke up here^^).

[Doctor Despair]

City-Shape Druid ? (does this exist? typo? I don't know it)
Or is it a standard druid as you said later?
I'm confused (sorry, just woke up here^^).

Sorry for mixing up my nomenclature here. City-Shape Druid is an ACF. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)

[Gruftzwerg]

Sorry for mixing up my nomenclature here. City-Shape Druid is an ACF. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)

k, thx for the link.

There is still a lil problem:

A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage.

And city-shape only gives you access down to tiny forms. Right of the bat only a Rat swarm comes to my mind that is tiny.

To solve this you would need to shrink a size category. E.g. permanent Shrink Person or a magic item (iirc there is one to become smaller..).

[Doctor Despair]

k, thx for the link.

There is still a lil problem:


And city-shape only gives you access down to tiny forms. Right of the bat only a Rat swarm comes to my mind that is tiny.

To solve this you would need to shrink a size category. E.g. permanent Shrink Person or a magic item (iirc there is one to become smaller..).

I think you are misreading it.


At 12th level, the druid does not gain the ability to transform into plant creatures. Instead, she may transform into an animal- or vermin-based swarm, so long as it fits within her standard wild shaping Hit Die limits.

Let's compare that to the standard druid class feature:


At 12th level, a druid becomes able to use wild shape to change into a plant creature with the same size restrictions as for animal forms. (A druid can't use this ability to take the form of a plant that isn't a creature.)

It seems like you're meant to be able to wildshape into a swarm composed of ANY size of creatures. If the DM does restrict you to tiny-size swarms, though, the Piranha swarm is probably ideal for that, as it's also the only animal swarm (for Exalted Wild Shape) that explicitly gets swarm traits as an Ex ability anyway.

[Gruftzwerg]

I get what you mean, and I also think that this might have been the designers intention.

But from a strict RAW point of view, the Primary Source Rule still applies..

Swarm Shape is a subcategory of City-Shape, which is itself a subcategory of Wild-Shape. Thus Wild Shape has still topic supremacy and provides the general rules. City-Shape sets some specific exception which get further refined by Swarm Shape.
Sadly, Swarm Shape missed the opportunity to lessen the restrictions. Nor do I see that they would try to exchange the restrictions. From a RAW point of view, the ability is sole repeating the HD limit of the (wild shape) ability and doesn't call out that this is the "sole restriction" for Swarm Shape.(at least imho. tell me if my translation skills have failed me^^?)
Thus, the ability is still restricted by the size limitations (from a strict RAW point of view).

Regarding the piranha swarm. Again, having just swarm traits is not enough to become immune to weapon damage. Tiny swarms still takes "half damage from slashing and piercing weapons". You need to shrink down to at least diminutive size to become immune to weapon damage. Therefore I suggested to use Permanent Shrink Person. The "Target: humanoid" restriction only applies when the Permanent Shrink Person is cast. The effect of the spell doesn't care for your type and just shrinks you a size down. When you now shape into a swarm of tiny creatures, they become diminutive due to the Permanent Shrink Person effect. Now the swarm traits of the piranha swarm gives you weapon damage immunity due to your new size.

[Doctor Despair]

Therefore I suggested to use Permanent Shrink Person. The "Target: humanoid" restriction only applies when the Permanent Shrink Person is cast. The effect of the spell doesn't care for your type and just shrinks you a size down. When you now shape into a swarm of tiny creatures, they become diminutive due to the Permanent Shrink Person effect. Now the swarm traits of the piranha swarm gives you weapon damage immunity due to your new size.

I agree that casting Reduce Person on the swarm would work, as your type is humanoid, but would a Reduce Person already active on the druid carry over? You'd be resetting your size to tiny, not further decreasing it; if it was an additional decrease, it wouldn't stack with Reduce Person, as magical size-changing effects don't stack. Am I parsing that right?

[Gruftzwerg]

I agree that casting Reduce Person on the swarm would work, as your type is humanoid, but would a Reduce Person already active on the druid carry over? You'd be resetting your size to tiny, not further decreasing it; if it was an additional decrease, it wouldn't stack with Reduce Person, as magical size-changing effects don't stack. Am I parsing that right?

Yes it carries over.
You have to keep in mind that the spell effect of Shrink Person doesn't vanish. Nor do your actual character stats vanish. An active effect is constantly altering your base stats (who remain in the background). Thus a druid with Permanent Shrink Person who uses Wild Shape has now (at least) two active effects on him. Both effect try to constantly alter his stats as long as the legal targets are available.
Now, as said, the effect of Shrink Person (description text) doesn't have the humanoid restriction. This means that as long as you have size categories, the effect works. And since even objects can be categorized into size steps, the effect would work always. Only at the moment of casting the humanoid target is required here.
Regarding the size changes of wild shape, these are not size-changing effects. Wild Shape still remains a form changing effect (transmutation effect to be precise), that is the main selling point here. The size change is just a possible byproduct of the form change and not the actual main effect itself.

[Doctor Despair]

I suppose I'm just concerned on whether reduce person would stay active like that. I know the spell wouldn't end or be suppressed... Wouldn't the case be that you'd shrink your natural form, then change your form to a tiny creature? Then again, if you cast Bull's Strength on a druid and they wild shaped, by that logic the BS wouldn't affect their new form's strength... I think you're probably right and I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around it for some reason.

Relying on permanent reduce person feels a little bad in the sense that the build is relying on an item, but it isn't necessarily core to the build either; just helpful. You are still immune to corporeal weapon damage even if you are tiny, and even if you become diminutive, you are subject to energy damage from melee weapons regardless. Of course, unless the weapon has energy damage AND is ghost touch, you have a 50% chance to ignore that too. Additionally, the Celestial template grants energy resist 10 against cold, electric, and acid, and you'd only take half damage from slashing and piercing.

Shrinking us down is definitely smart though. It does leave us vulnerable to an area dispel, but our SR and caster level should make that unreliable at least

[Gruftzwerg]

I suppose I'm just concerned on whether reduce person would stay active like that. I know the spell wouldn't end or be suppressed... Wouldn't the case be that you'd shrink your natural form, then change your form to a tiny creature? Then again, if you cast Bull's Strength on a druid and they wild shaped, by that logic the BS wouldn't affect their new form's strength... I think you're probably right and I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head around it for some reason.


The following is not tailored personally for you but more my humble observation here in the forum.


When people talk about some new pure spell power related TO stuff, they are way less likely to be biased against it and are more likely to jump on the hype train.

When it comes to TO for gishes, people start to be a lil more prejudging and have more concerns about RAW.

But god forbid if you should try to present some mundane TO stuff. It not "mundanes may not have nice things", it's more like of a "melee never have nice things" thinking.

We all have been framed that the less magical something is in 3.5 the way lesser should your expectations be. And Wild Shape TO is a step below Spells here, in the gish section.

And sometimes I find myself biased the same way. So don't feel alone with those thoughts. We are all struggling with it^^.