OOTS #1249 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Fyraltari]

I had forgotten how little O-Chul actually knows the Order.

[Rinazina]

Am I the only one worried by that forgetfullness cauldron there? Would be potion effects on ingestion, touch, or injected?

... and what kind of crazy trick would have Serini for a rainy day ? :)


love fire in the hole, and please V take cover!!

[Zhorn]

5 stars, would read again

[locksmith of lo]

ha ha! never got to read a comic before even the topic thread came up!

"Five star, would be rescued by again" is a great line! :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Bringing over my post from the end of the last thread as this one didn't exist yet :smallsmile:



And thank the gods the Order are (hopefully) about to stop Serini from using her big guns on them instead of, you know, the actual threat :smallsigh:

[hagnat]

O-Chul being able to rate the Order's rescues is as funny as the Order being able to rate how earth shatering the sound of a destroyed Gate is.

[Metastachydium]

Okay, now I feel sorry for the poor halfling lady.

(Makes me wonder how she'd feel about the news that Soon almost killed Xykon and Redcloak.)

[npc revolution]

Dorukan's name is misspelled in panel 5.

Awesome page! I love seeing how the Scribble gang thought of each other.

[danielxcutter]

Yup, called it - Serini's not just convinced in her logic, she's also scared [bleep]less of Xykon and for a good reason. Vindication!

[Peelee]

Bringing over my post from the end of the last thread as this one didn't exist yet :smallsmile:



And thank the gods the Order are (hopefully) about to stop Serini from using her big guns on them instead of, you know, the actual threat

Seconded. Also, I'm really hoping that Lein is able to get out of the chains and help as well.

[Mike Havran]

Is it just me or did Serini misspell Dorukan's name for some reason?

[wkwkwkwk1]

Awesome! As always :smallbiggrin:

I think you accidentally merged Dorukan's and Durkon's names together as "Dorukon", on panel 5 :smallwink:

EDIT: Ninja'd

Is it just me or did Serini misspell Dorukan's name for some reason?

[Quebbster]

Considering how close the last escape was the rating seems a tad optimistic. I don't see any friendly monsters with surprise abilities around to bail them out this time...

[Jay R]

Looking forward to seeing how the new Belkar reacts to paladin allies.

[RMS Oceanic]

Yup, called it - Serini's not just convinced in her logic, she's also scared [bleep]less of Xykon and for a good reason. Vindication!

Yeah, a personal reason for it is more compelling than just thinking she's logciked it all out.

Also she seems to be treating power as a simple thing, much like Vaarsuvius used to. These powerful people failed, therefore nobody can win. Yet when Vaarsuvius nearly threw the phylactery into the rift they did it with low level magic, coming much closer to an actual lasting blow than the soul splices did. It will be something like that that takes Xykon down rather than just grouping up the bigger numbers against him.

[Windscion]

Belkar -- "Fire in the hole! Meaning me. I'm fire."
Very true to form. I'll miss the little psycho when he's gone.

[Psyren]

Yup, called it - Serini's not just convinced in her logic, she's also scared [bleep]less of Xykon and for a good reason. Vindication!


Yeah, a personal reason for it is more compelling than just thinking she's logciked it all out.

Also she seems to be treating power as a simple thing, much like Vaarsuvius used to. These powerful people failed, therefore nobody can win. Yet when Vaarsuvius nearly threw the phylactery into the rift they did it with low level magic, coming much closer to an actual lasting blow than the soul splices did. It will be something like that that takes Xykon down rather than just grouping up the bigger numbers against him.

She's forgetting the biggest reason the Scribble failed - they all hated each other's guts by the end and thus wouldn't cooperate properly even when reality was on the line. The Order meanwhile have been forged into a found family by their collective travails, demonstrated in microcosm by them using teamwork to kick her butt earlier.

[Ninja Dragon]

Sounds like Serini got a real inferiority complex related to her party.

I'm now picturing her thinking she deserved to die instead of Kraagor. She probably thinks they were all better than her.

The irony is that they all died, and she lived. And now she has to succeed where the others failed.

[Schroeswald]

I loved Serini calling Lirian and Dorukan ”Dor and Lir”, Twas cute

[3SecondCultist]

Absolutely amazing. Great call-back. :smallbiggrin:

[Onyavar]

I had forgotten how little O-Chul actually knows the Order.
Hmmm... he was around when they conspired with Shojo; he was not-really with them during the siege; he was rescued by V and had a small bit of time to get acquainted with them again; he knows Belkar is evil; and he had plenty of time to learn from Lien about her adventures with Elan, V and Durkon.

Yes, he should be more circumspect in his statements, but given this is the final book, he should have reason to be confident.


Am I the only one worried by that forgetfullness cauldron there? Would be potion effects on ingestion, touch, or injected?

... and what kind of crazy trick would have Serini for a rainy day ? :)


love fire in the hole, and please V take cover!!

Wouldn't it be funny if Serini fell into the Chekov's cauldron?

[super dark33]

Survivor guilt AND inadaquacy..... Serini and Belkar parellals...

[Fyraltari]

Serini knowing the paladins were trying to escape and that it was lame without having to look was neat. Her having nicknames for her old adventuring buddies was neat.

I am seriously disappointed in her though, since her whole "plan" seems to indeed be "just drag this on as long as possible." At least the fighting bits seem to be over. I'm guessing she'll die as she comes around or something.

[Bacon Elemental]

Ohhhhhh, I hadnt even considered the angle of Serini's old friends. oops

[Rogan]

I wonder how many other rescue parties O-Chul needed before, to get a nice baseline to compare with the order.

But his line is great.
And Serinis nicknames for her team are a nice touch. It makes her more human (halflingish? ).

[dancrilis]

I am seriously disappointed in her though, since her whole "plan" seems to indeed be "just drag this on as long as possible."

Dragging things out as long as possible is a fine plan - eventually Xykon or Redcloak might feel the entire dungeon is a trick and there is no gate here at all and go elsewhere, or Redcloak might hit epic levels and they might feel it both quicker and safer to rebuild one of the other gates and thereby leave hers alone while also reinforcing the universe.

[Peelee]

I am seriously disappointed in her though, since her whole "plan" seems to indeed be "just drag this on as long as possible."

That's not her plan though. She just refuses to give up so far. She's not planned to drag this out as long as possible any more than the Order planned to drag their campaign against Xykon on as long as possible.

[Psyren]

That's not her plan though. She just refuses to give up so far. She's not planned to drag this out as long as possible any more than the Order planned to drag their campaign against Xykon on as long as possible.

She may not have planned to drag this out, but O-Chul and Lien are right on the money.

[danielxcutter]

She may not have planned to drag this out, but O-Chul and Lien are right on the money.

Eh, knowing that she's not far up her ass enough that her internal organs resemble a full-body cast and is at least partly motivated by fear I understand why she feels this way. Don't agree with her, of course, but I can't blame her too much.

[Timy]

This last line really made me chuckle :D

[Garanvir]

Longtime lurker, rarely post but just had to drop by and say I loved that final panel - very funny!

O-Chul and the Giant are both awesome!

[The Shadow]

Got an actual laugh out of the last panel.

Also, I'm getting serious Miracle Max vibes from Serini right now. Hopefully we soon get to, "If I do this thing you ask, Xykon suffers?" Haley: "Humiliations galore!"

Though I also expect some sort of halfling-to-halfling pep talk from Belkar.

[Gurgeh]

Yeah, O-Chul's take at the end is absolutely killer. Had me laughing out loud for entirely too long!

I'm really glad to see the paladins reunited with the Order, I've missed this pair so much.

[Metastachydium]

Got an actual laugh out of the last panel.

Also, I'm getting serious Miracle Max vibes from Serini right now. Hopefully we soon get to, "If I do this thing you ask, Xykon suffers?" Haley: "Humiliations galore!"

Though I also expect some sort of halfling-to-halfling pep talk from Belkar.

Belkar's very good at breaking speeches. Granted, he mostly does that to Roy and Roy alone.

[drazen]

Am I the only one worried by that forgetfullness cauldron there? Would be potion effects on ingestion, touch, or injected?

... and what kind of crazy trick would have Serini for a rainy day ? :)


love fire in the hole, and please V take cover!!


Conservation of detail means it's probably going to get spilled on someone. It is a whole cauldron and it ain't just meant for two!

But will it be the Order, the paladins... or Serini herself?

[El Dorado]

Meaning me. I’m fire.

yes you are Belkar

[Justyz]

By the end of this tale the Azurites may consider V the greatest wizard of all time

[DaOldeWolf]

The question is if she will finally listen to reason or if the fight will keep moving forward.

[Larsaan]

Yup, called it - Serini's not just convinced in her logic, she's also scared [bleep]less of Xykon and for a good reason. Vindication!

I know, right? And it also proves that she doesn't have some secret offscreen plan to stop Xykon. Tasty, tasty vindication.

Now here's hoping they get through to her, although I'm still worried that her personal demons are going to push her into doing something truly damaging before this sequence is over.

[Peelee]

Conservation of detail means it's probably going to get spilled on someone.
Conservation of detail is overrated.

The question is if she will finally listen to reason or if the fight will keep moving forward.
Listen to what? Nobody has said anything of substance to her yet.

[Phhase]

Belkar's very good at breaking speeches. Granted, he mostly does that to Roy and Roy alone.

After all, :belkar:"Hurting people is the only thing I'm good at."

Incidentally, my money is on this talent of Belkar's being what saves the day by getting Redcloak to blast him with a 9th level spell slot while he's near the Gate, in a mirror to Kraagor's sacrifice.

Beautiful strip tho, lovely callback by O-chul.

[Metastachydium]

Incidentally, my money is on this talent of Belkar's being what saves the day by getting Redcloak to blast him with a 9th level spell slot while he's near the Gate, in a mirror to Kraagor's sacrifice.

How would that help anyone, though?

[Peelee]

Incidentally, my money is on this talent of Belkar's being what saves the day by getting Redcloak to blast him with a 9th level spell slot while he's near the Gate, in a mirror to Kraagor's sacrifice.

That doesn't save the day at all, though.

[Giggling Ghast]

I can’t fault Serini’s logic, but she’s forgetting a couple things: first, that the Order has beaten Xykon before, and second, that Soon nearly defeated Xykon on his own.

[Peelee]

I can’t fault Serini’s logic, but she’s forgetting a couple things: first, that the Order has beaten Xykon before, and second, that Soon nearly defeated Xykon on his own.

The Order beating Xykon was a fluke, and Soon had an army of paladins (twice).

[Doug Lampert]

Considering how close the last escape was the rating seems a tad optimistic. I don't see any friendly monsters with surprise abilities around to bail them out this time...

They left Elan talking to a monster.


Conservation of detail is overrated.

Eh, you're just quoting (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?207236-Unresolved-plot-point-collection-thread&p=11671842&highlight=Conservation+of+Detail#post11671842) some hack named Rich Burlow there, and what does he know about this comic?

[Metastachydium]

and Soon had an army of paladins (twice).

1. Soon did the heavy lifting there.
2. That he had help changes little: Xykon living to see another day was a fluke. He was beaten, and very thoroughly.

[Peelee]

Eh, you're just quoting (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?207236-Unresolved-plot-point-collection-thread&p=11671842&highlight=Conservation+of+Detail#post11671842) some hack named Rich Burlow there, and what does he know about this comic?

Man, I searched for several minutes trying to find that and failed. Kudos to you, beat me at my own game.

[Peelee]

1. Soon did the heavy lifting there.
2. That he had help changes little: Xykon living to see another day was a fluke. He was beaten, and very thoroughly.

1.)Soon alone couldn't have done it, a lot of Team Evil's firepower was being used against the ghost army (who were also helping get Xykon down health-wise). Soon was the most powerful and did heavy lifting sure, but still needed the paladin army to get that far.
2.) I don't disagree at all. Point one is doing the heavy lifting here. :smallwink:

[DaOldeWolf]

Listen to what? Nobody has said anything of substance to her yet.
And what chance has she given to listen to what they have to say?

[Wraithfighter]

Listen to what? Nobody has said anything of substance to her yet.

You mean, besides O'chul pointing out that Serini's severely underestimated the Order's abilities and how her assumption that they cannot defeat Xykon is a severely flawed one?

Yes, they need to keep talking to address her trauma and outright terror as it relates to Xykon. But while this is fear-based instead of hate-based, the line still remains applicable:

You can't logic someone out of a position they did not logic themselves into.

Yes, Xykon defeated Serini casually, and was able to kill (well, close enough) Lirian and Dorukan. But it hardly takes a master of logical thinking to point out that those were solo fights, and the Order would presumably be fighting Xykon as a moderately cohesive unit. Like what happened in her fight with the Order, she tried to isolate everyone, and it gave her the advantage for a while... and then Elan used his wordsmithing skills to briefly disable the anti-magic field to allow Haley to strike a light source, which caused Sunny to look away from the party, allowing V to turn the tide of the fight, forcing Serini to break out another trump card.

A trump card that was negated too, as Bloodfeast woke Minrah, who (mostly) treated Belkar's Fear effect, who broke the charm on Elan, who cured V's poisoning, who dispelled a number of the magic effects, which forced Serini to flee the battle. The Whole being greater than the sum of its parts, demonstrated right to her face (also in the pursuit: Haley helps V evade a problematic eyebeam, Belkar gets V out of a trap, Belkar reveals the secret normal wall so that V can create an opening). At this point, she shouldn't need to logical arguments to reconsider her position, she just got punched in the face with them.

No, she needs an emotional argument now. What's holding her back isn't logic anymore, but fear of Xykon. Thor himself could come down and she'd still be going "Xykon could still easily destroy you it's not worth the risk!". She needs to be inspired, she needs to be given hope...

...and unfortunately for her right now, I have a feeling the best proof is going to be a continuation of her ass getting kicked.

[Rinazina]

Now here's hoping they get through to her, although I'm still worried that her personal demons are going to push her into doing something truly damaging before this sequence is over.

It is what I'm afraid, and if we had a tip of being inclined before, now she's down to use lethal force. And feeling that there is no way out, is it possible that she's going to summon some really nasty trick?

This opens a new question: is the telepathic bond still be active? I guess so (third block https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1247.html ), so I wonder if this last dramatic power would require the order, sunny, and the paladins, to finally settle everything for good?

[Metastachydium]

1.)Soon alone couldn't have done it, a lot of Team Evil's firepower was being used against the ghost army (who were also helping get Xykon down health-wise). Soon was the most powerful and did heavy lifting sure, but still needed the paladin army to get that far.

We don't know that. The best Team Evil had could mildly inconvenience him at most, but yes, the others did their part as well and made his job much easier for sure.
Still, the point is, Serini's wrong: Xykon's beatable and was beaten before.

[Quizatzhaderac]

Conservation of detail means it's probably going to get spilled on someone. It's already served a narrative purpose: it explained what Serini was planning to do with her prisoners that she was unwilling to kill.

Using it again is possible, but I wouldn't say it's unused.

[Metastachydium]

It's already served a narrative purpose: it explained what Serini was planning to do with her prisoners that she was unwilling to kill.

Using it again is possible, but I wouldn't say it's unused.

It will see use, though! The entire cauldron will be fed to Red, who'll think he's the Red before he SPOILER his own SPOILER.

[bunsen_h]

Serini knowing the paladins were trying to escape and that it was lame without having to look was neat. Her having nicknames for her old adventuring buddies was neat.

They're paladins. Of course they were trying to escape. (Roll, roll, roll your dice...)


Conservation of detail means it's probably going to get spilled on someone. It is a whole cauldron and it ain't just meant for two!

But will it be the Order, the paladins... or Serini herself?

Belkar drinks (or absorbs the power of) the whole lot, and becomes totally and permanently amnesic -- ceasing to be himself. After taking a deep breath, of course.

[drazen]

They left Elan talking to a monster.



Eh, you're just quoting (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?207236-Unresolved-plot-point-collection-thread&p=11671842&highlight=Conservation+of+Detail#post11671842) some hack named Rich Burlow there, and what does he know about this comic?

The context of that quote is that the "detail" not conserved was part of the world-building of one of the races in the strip.

What world-building does the amnesia cauldron accomplish?

Call it Chekov's Cauldron, if you'd like, but other than a few times Roy has babbled on about some plan that was never enacted (also world-building about how he is an intelligent tactician), a lot of far more minor details in this strip have popped back up later, one way or another.

[Peelee]

And what chance has she given to listen to what they have to say?
Yeah, and? My question still stands - listen to what?

Still, the point is, Serini's wrong: Xykon's beatable and was beaten before.
I don't think I've ever said Serini is not wrong. I agree with you.

[scienceguy8]

Considering how close the last escape was the rating seems a tad optimistic. I don't see any friendly monsters with surprise abilities around to bail them out this time...

Any rescue where you escape with your life and most of your limbs is a successful one.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Thank you, Lien and O-Chul, for finally landing the point on Serini that I'm fairly sure we've all been waiting months for someone to make. Even if it really didn't make it into her mind.


Also, I'm getting serious Miracle Max vibes from Serini right now. Hopefully we soon get to, "If I do this thing you ask, Xykon suffers?" Haley: "Humiliations galore!"

"Good luck stormin' the arch-lich!"

"You think it'll work?"

"It'd take a miracle." "Bye-bye!"

[Souju]

I wonder if it's dawned on Serini that Xykon beat each of her friends and her ALONE, and that he only really beat Dorukan and Soon (the latter of whom she doesn't seem to be aware he "defeated") due to psychological warfare or pure unadulterated luck.

The grim irony being he's managed to defeat her by making her think those were all normal fights. She's thinking like Kraagor would rather than how a rogue would.

She also seems unaware that the Order themselves HAVE defeated Xykon before and the paladin she has chained to a wall came VERY close a second time.

She's so quick to jump to conclusions I can't help but wonder if she studied monk with Miko.

[DaOldeWolf]

Yeah, and? My question still stands - listen to what?


Everything! Everything they know that she doesnt. She doesnt have the bigger picture. A bigger picture that might change her point of view if she knew.

[Peelee]

Everything! Everything they know that she doesnt. She doesnt have the bigger picture. A bigger picture that might change her point of view if she knew.
Oh, OK, I must have missed the strip where they laid it all out for her. Unless, of course, they haven't done that yet, which is what I mean when I say "listen to what?" But you seem pretty sure that they have, so please, link me the strip that I clearly missed so we can be on the same page here.

[Xihirli]

O-Chul is so supportive

[DaOldeWolf]

Oh, OK, I must have missed the strip where they laid it all out for her. Unless, of course, they haven't done that yet, which is what I mean when I say "listen to what?" But you seem pretty sure that they have, so please, link me the strip that I clearly missed so we can be on the same page here.

Dude, I already pointed how she wont stop to at least hear what they have to say:

And what chance has she given to listen to what they have to say?

At this point, you are going in circles. How are they going to get her to listen to them (and learnt what they know) if she doesnt stop fighting? Both the order and the paladins have already pointed out many times how they are there to speak with her. She just keeps pushing forward her plan of taking them of the board anyway. I think the order are the only ones putting any effort in at least trying to talk.

[Wraithfighter]

Yeah, and? My question still stands - listen to what?

The sound of her ambush getting foiled so badly she had to flee and even then it only bought her a few rounds of time?

Or Lien and O-Chul pointing out that, given how much she's underestimated the OOTS, that her estimates of their chances against Xykon need to be re-evaluated?

Again: Logic has nothing to do with any of this. Serini didn't come to this conclusion out of logic, she came to it out of fear. She believes that nothing, nothing at all, can stop Xykon. Logic will not win the day here, because it can't, there's no logical arguments that could work against someone so mired in terror as she is.

[Frozenstep]

It greatly amuses me that O-Chul is so appreciative of V's "rescue". Both because in the end it wasn't really V that was responsible for saving O-Chul, but also because it really was only because V jumped back into danger at his lowest point to try to save him that they got away, and it's nice to see that be appreciated.

[TheNecrocomicon]

Again: Logic has nothing to do with any of this. Serini didn't come to this conclusion out of logic, she came to it out of fear. She believes that nothing, nothing at all, can stop Xykon. Logic will not win the day here, because it can't, there's no logical arguments that could work against someone so mired in terror as she is.

"Irrationality: it's irrational!"

Reminds me of the real-life situation we have going on right now, whereby the more you push people to do something, even to benefit themselves and people they know, the more some people will dig in deeper and refuse to do it that much more vehemently simply because someone else is telling them to do it.

[Oromin]

The sound of her ambush getting foiled so badly she had to flee and even then it only bought her a few rounds of time?

Or Lien and O-Chul pointing out that, given how much she's underestimated the OOTS, that her estimates of their chances against Xykon need to be re-evaluated?

Again: Logic has nothing to do with any of this. Serini didn't come to this conclusion out of logic, she came to it out of fear. She believes that nothing, nothing at all, can stop Xykon. Logic will not win the day here, because it can't, there's no logical arguments that could work against someone so mired in terror as she is.

Not saying that Serini isn't making an emotional argument, she totally is, but I don't think being afraid of Xykon is illogical. Dude is scary.

[Crusher]

Does anyone have the Giant's quote on how its dumb to assume where you think the story is going and then complain how the story elements don't lead up to it, but rather you should look at the story elements and then guessing where the story is going to go? I've looked around but can't find it.

[Vikenlugaid]

Nice, Serini entrance was totally hilarious XD i feel weird that Serini is surprised of them enetering...

So well, Serini's point is absolutely right, Xykon beat Lirian and Dorukan who were probably the most powerful casters in the world, and he didn't even sweat fighting them. Yeah, is a bit of "defeatism"... but only because we know this is a parody story, because if this was real Xykon would win without any doubt.

Now what's gonna be? keep fighting Serini and force her to use more drastic (and lethal) methods? or just really really try to talk.

[Larsaan]

Now what's gonna be? keep fighting Serini and force her to use more drastic (and lethal) methods? or just really really try to talk.

I feel like you've got a few things backwards regarding who is pushing what...

[TheNecrocomicon]

So well, Serini's point is absolutely right, Xykon beat Lirian and Dorukan who were probably the most powerful casters in the world, and he didn't even sweat fighting them. Yeah, is a bit of "defeatism"... but only because we know this is a parody story, because if this was real Xykon would win without any doubt.

I'd say it's pretty inaccurate that "Xykon didn't break a sweat", he only beat Lirian after he got turned into a lich to overcome her countermeasures and a runaway forest fire devastated her allies.

As for Dorukan, he had to lure the guy out of his fortress/dungeon by pressing a specific berserk button, and only then did he crush Dorukan by brute force.

Then Soon's spirit nearly crushed both Xykon and Redcloak, though with martyred allies as (ultimately rather ineffectual) backup.

[Peelee]

Dude, I already pointed how she wont stop to at least hear what they have to say

Sounds like you answered your own question, then:
The question is if she will finally listen to reason or if the fight will keep moving forward.
I've gotta say, that was definitely the most vehement agreeing-with-me that I've encountered.

[dancrilis]

Dude, I already pointed how she wont stop to at least hear what they have to say:

I believe that is something of Peelee's point (if I am reading them correctly).

You said:

The question is if she will finally listen to reason or if the fight will keep moving forward.
Which implies that reason has already been laid out for why she should stop fighting.

Peelee replied with:


Listen to what? Nobody has said anything of substance to her yet.
Which implies that reason has not been laid out yet for why she should stop fighting.

You replied with:

And what chance has she given to listen to what they have to say?
Which seems to agree with Peelee's point that reason to stop fighting has not been laid out yet.

Now if you meant (bolding for added words):

The question is if she will finally stop and listen to reason or if the fight will keep moving forward.
Then that is a different matter but not the quote that Peelee replied too.

[Peelee]

I believe that is something of Peelee's point (if I am reading them correctly).

You said:

Which implies that reason has already been laid out for why she should stop fighting.

Peelee replied with:

Which implies that reason has not been laid out yet for why she should stop fighting.

You replied with:

Which seems to agree with Peelee's point that reason to stop fighting has not been laid out yet.

Now if you meant (bolding for added words):

Then that is a different matter but not the quote that Peelee replied too.

Aye, exactly. I very much want them to get Serini to listen to them. But they're not there yet. They need to completely outlcass her, and while they've made a lot of headway, they still have a bit to go.

I'm hoping that Lein will be able to finish getting free and help, since it seems like there was a hint that might be happening. And, dare I hope, O-Chul might also get involved?

[Metastachydium]

Nice, Serini entrance was totally hilarious XD i feel weird that Serini is surprised of them enetering...

So well, Serini's point is absolutely right, Xykon beat Lirian and Dorukan who were probably the most powerful casters in the world, and he didn't even sweat fighting them. Yeah, is a bit of "defeatism"... but only because we know this is a parody story, because if this was real Xykon would win without any doubt.

Now what's gonna be? keep fighting Serini and force her to use more drastic (and lethal) methods? or just really really try to talk.


I feel like you've got a few things backwards regarding who is pushing what...

Yup. The only thing the Order is trying to force Serini to do is freakin' listen to them for a damn second. Unfortunately, Serini doesn't think they have anything useful to say (and frankly, she has little reason to suspect they were told stuff by literal gods), so she'll likely struggle to the bitter end. Let's hope she'll fail.

[DaOldeWolf]

Sounds like you answered your own question, then:
I've gotta say, that was definitely the most vehement agreeing-with-me that I've encountered.

:smallconfused:
Not sure what you mean here. I am really sorry but I dont understand the point you are trying to make.


I believe that is something of Peelee's point (if I am reading them correctly).

You said:

Which implies that reason has already been laid out for why she should stop fighting.

Peelee replied with:

Which implies that reason has not been laid out yet for why she should stop fighting.

You replied with:

Which seems to agree with Peelee's point that reason to stop fighting has not been laid out yet.

Now if you meant (bolding for added words):

Then that is a different matter but not the quote that Peelee replied too.

I think Peelee might be confusing my intent between posts. My original question is speculative of what will happen next in the comic.

The discussion diverted on whether its a good idea that she should stop fighting and finally listen what the order has to say. Yes, I think the order are doing the best to try to speak with her. Yes, I think she is stubbornly sticking to her plan beyond reason. Yes, I think it would benefit her to learnt what the order knows. I am still unsure if she will eventually listen though.

[b_jonas]

The irony is that they all died, and she [Serini lived. And now she has to succeed where the others failed. It's only Lirian that failed. Soon lived to old age and was probably never defeated. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) Dorukan lived to old age too, sacrificed himself for a fight he thought would be worth it. His magical protection for the gate held for pretty long after his death. Redcloak and Xykon couldn't performed the ritual using that gate even though they were camped there for a long time.

... and what kind of crazy trick would have Serini for a rainy day ? :) More monsters obviously.

Considering how close the last escape was the rating seems a tad optimistic. I don't see any friendly monsters with surprise abilities around to bail them out this time... Serini brought a lot of monsters with her. You can even count Sunny as friendly. There's probably more where that came from. And some readers predict that another monster related to the MitD will be here in Serini's dungeon.

What world-building does the amnesia cauldron accomplish? The MitD will down the whole cauldron, partly to save O-Chul, partly because she is always hungry and eats scrabble tiles and partly cooked vultures. That is how he ended up with a childish personality. Time travel is involved.

[Peelee]

Yup. The only thing the Order is trying to force Serini to do is freakin' listen to them for a damn second. Unfortunately, Serini doesn't think they have anything useful to say (and frankly, she has little reason to suspect they were told stuff by literal gods), so she'll likely struggle to the bitter end. Let's hope she'll fail.
Seconded. All of it.

It's only Lirian that failed. Soon lived to old age and was probably never defeated. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) Dorukan lived to old age too, sacrificed himself for a fight he thought would be worth it.
Eh, Dorukan didn't sacrifice himself, he fully believed he'd win. He was only not going for Xykon because he didn't know where Lirian's body/soul were. Once he knew, he went all out.

[Hurkyl]

It's only Lirian that failed. Soon lived to old age and was probably never defeated. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) Dorukan lived to old age too, sacrificed himself for a fight he thought would be worth it. His magical protection for the gate held for pretty long after his death. Redcloak and Xykon couldn't performed the ritual using that gate even though they were camped there for a long time.
More monsters obviously.
They all failed: the gates are destroyed. It was posthumous for Girard, Dorukan, and Soon, but it doesn't change the fact they failed. Was it posthumous for Lirian too? I dunno if she was killed before or after the gate was destroyed.

We know Girard and Soon set up defenses that would continue past their death. Ironically, despite their differences, their means were rather similar: forming an organization dedicated to continuing their legacy. But those failed. In fact, Soon's was directly responsible for the failure.

What was Dorukan's dunegon like before Xykon took it over? We know it was a stereotypical mid-level dungeon crawl after Xykon took it over, but I didn't get the impression it was a particularly hostile place prior to that... except, of course, from the epic mage living inside.

[ATHATH]

I'm a bit surprised that Haley wasn't able to come up with a better insult that "you totally suck, lady!"

[Fish]

Belkar drinks (or absorbs the power of) the whole lot, and becomes totally and permanently amnesic -- ceasing to be himself. After taking a deep breath, of course.
Yes. This is what I came here to say.

I think we know how Belkar Bitterleaf breathes his last … he forgets the horrible person that he was and becomes the slightly better person he how is.

Bonus points if he does this on purpose to save the others, a Good act.

[Wraithfighter]

Not saying that Serini isn't making an emotional argument, she totally is, but I don't think being afraid of Xykon is illogical. Dude is scary.

Sure, but it's gone past rational levels of fear (I shouldn't be up on this high ledge because it's really windy and the ground is a long way down) and into irrational levels of fear (I don't care if there's a massive barrier between me and the ledge just being this high up is a bad idea). Which is doubly a problem because she doesn't get that she's being irrational and self-destructive here, it's not just fear, she's terrified of Xykon, she thinks Xykon is outright unstoppable.

A logical debate will not fix this. Reasoned arguments will not sway her. She's too far gone down into the rabbit hole of outright terror in order to be swayed. Either there needs to be an emotional argument that hits at the root of her terror and helps her get past that, or they need to kick her ass for a while to get it through her thick skull that she's completely out of her gourd.

And the part member with decent diplomacy skills is having a staring contest with a Beholder right now.

...

Please, Rich, make that last part literal.

[CountDVB]

They all failed: the gates are destroyed. It was posthumous for Girard, Dorukan, and Soon, but it doesn't change the fact they failed. Was it posthumous for Lirian too? I dunno if she was killed before or after the gate was destroyed.

We know Girard and Soon set up defenses that would continue past their death. Ironically, despite their differences, their means were rather similar: forming an organization dedicated to continuing their legacy. But those failed. In fact, Soon's was directly responsible for the failure.

What was Dorukan's dunegon like before Xykon took it over? We know it was a stereotypical mid-level dungeon crawl after Xykon took it over, but I didn't get the impression it was a particularly hostile place prior to that... except, of course, from the epic mage living inside.

Granted, they only failed often because of large luck on part of Team Evil. Like with Redcloak managing to turn Xykon into a lich against Lirian. Or with Miko hitting the Sapphire literally a round before Soon finished off Xykon and and Redcloak.

Though given her nicknames for them, it looks like she cared for her two Neutral Good allies a fair bit.

[Peelee]

Sure, but it's gone past rational levels of fear (I shouldn't be up on this high ledge because it's really windy and the ground is a long way down) and into irrational levels of fear (I don't care if there's a massive barrier between me and the ledge just being this high up is a bad idea). Which is doubly a problem because she doesn't get that she's being irrational and self-destructive here, it's not just fear, she's terrified of Xykon, she thinks Xykon is outright unstoppable.

A logical debate will not fix this. Reasoned arguments will not sway her. She's too far gone down into the rabbit hole of outright terror in order to be swayed. Either there needs to be an emotional argument that hits at the root of her terror and helps her get past that, or they need to kick her ass for a while to get it through her thick skull that she's completely out of her gourd.

And the part member with decent diplomacy skills is having a staring contest with a Beholder right now.

...

Please, Rich, make that last part literal.

An emotional argument like, say, embodying what the Scribble could have been if they hadn't broken up? Because I gotta say, I like that idea.

[Metastachydium]

Granted, they only failed often because of large luck on part of Team Evil. Like with Redcloak managing to turn Xykon into a lich against Lirian.

Arguably, that one wasn't luck. It was something Lirian was not prepared to deal with, but Redcloak knew what he was doing and didn't succeed by accident.

[dancrilis]

Or with Miko hitting the Sapphire literally a round before Soon finished off Xykon and and Redcloak.

Soon just had his turn and so it was now Xykon's turn - which he seems to have used to pickup Redcloak and fly away, without Miko he could have done the exact same thing (although he might not have) - and he did this before Miko broke the gate.

Soon himself admits that he only might have ended Xykon's threat permanently.

[FireJustice]

Gosh, I really can't like Serini. I get it.

But here's the hope Xykon tear her apart for realsies this time.


I get it, I get it.
its he villain, he beat you badly, he beat your Wizard and Druid friends, full caster and stuff.
so the better idea is to make him win.

news flash lady, you are just a bag of party tricks, you cant even oppose the ones who are trying to oppose him. That's how weak you appear to be.

[Thales]

Serini is definitely overestimating Xykon. Yes, he beat her — when he faced her out in the open without her having access to any of her rogue skills. Since then, he got destroyed by a random midlevel fighter, outright lost to one of her former companions while making a serious effort, and the only reason he didn't have his phylactery chucked into the rift was the hand of the author. And right now, with her, are witnesses to or authors of those defeats. Hopefully they can help her reason overcome her fear.

That said, she probably doesn't have such overwhelming fear of Redcloak. Redcloak is powerful and clever, but I don't think he has much in the way of answers to an antimagic ambush like the one Serini sprung on the Order. Is it just that he spends enough time with Xykon that Serini is afraid to move against him either?

[Metastachydium]

Soon just had his turn and so it was now Xykon's turn - which he seems to have used to pickup Redcloak and fly away, without Miko he could have done the exact same thing (although he might not have) - and he did this before Miko broke the gate.

Soon himself admits that he only might have ended Xykon's threat permanently.

Well, Xykon absolutely thought he was beaten and it is more than implied that had it not been for the Gate getting shattered, he could have caught up to the Bony Bastard, which given the shape he was in would have likely been a one-shot kill.



That said, she probably doesn't have such overwhelming fear of Redcloak. Redcloak is powerful and clever, but I don't think he has much in the way of answers to an antimagic ambush like the one Serini sprung on the Order. Is it just that he spends enough time with Xykon that Serini is afraid to move against him either?

For all we know, the Mantle might protect him from the AMF. It's an artifact, after all.

[Hokum]

I'm having a horrible day, but "Fire in the hole! Meaning me. I'm fire." actually made me laugh aloud.

thanks Rich, it is much appreciated.

[Wraithfighter]

An emotional argument like, say, embodying what the Scribble could have been if they hadn't broken up? Because I gotta say, I like that idea.

Aye. Or bringing up that she's actively helping the person that almost killed her and murdered her friends. Or just smacking her in the face with her irrationality.

...Belkar might be key here. He's got a talent for getting under people's skin, after all, and him mocking the hell out of the world-class adventurer who got so terrified of the big bad that she's become a monster in order to help him, with a cutting aside that he's not talking about her troll half?

Just a thought :).

[Peelee]

Arguably, that one wasn't luck. It was something Lirian was not prepared to deal with, but Redcloak knew what he was doing and didn't succeed by accident.
Eh, the Crimson Mantle letting Reddie keep his spellcssting was luck. No way to foresee that and, IIRC, Reddie himself was surprised.

so the better idea is to make him win.

She has had unrestricted and unfettered opportunity to do that. She has not, as evidenced by the fact that he still is stuck on the entry round to find her Gate. You might dislike Serini less if you don't make up things that are not supported by the comic about her to dislike.

Aye. Or bringing up that she's helping the person that almost killed her and murdered her friends.

Shes not actively helping him. She's just not helping the Order and the paladins, and is trying to make them go away. If she wanted to actively help him, she could just gift him the Gate. Which she notably has not done.

[Metastachydium]

Eh, the Crimson Mantle letting Reddie keep his spellcssting was luck. No way to foresee that and, IIRC, Reddie himself was surprised.

Fair, although he shouldn't have been surprised. He got to keep his casting because it made him immune to disease.

[Peelee]

Fair, although he shouldn't have been surprised. He got to keep his casting because it made him immune to disease.

That's a good point, but it was a magical, epic disease.

Also, I'm not 100% that he was surprised, so I count even be wrong on that too start with. :smallwink:
But yeah, I'd still call it luck.

[Wraithfighter]

Shes not actively helping him. She's just not helping the Order and the paladins, and is trying to make them go away. If she wanted to actively help him, she could just gift him the Gate. Which she notably has not done.

Oh, sure, she hasn't gone to the level of giving him the thing he wants most of all, sure. But I sure do call "actively attacking and attempting to neutralize people that seek to stop him" a form of active help. Just because she's not knocking down all the barriers in Xykon's path doesn't make her knocking down these specific barriers any more acceptable or justified.

She's actively helping Xykon right now. She cleared out the scouting team that had important information that the Order of the Stick could've used to create a solid ambush of Xykon, and diverted them when they were prepared to ambush him at point-blank range when the opportunity came. That's a pretty hefty amount of support that she's given to the villain who murdered her friends and turned her into a Three-Eightsling.

[dancrilis]

Eh, the Crimson Mantle letting Reddie keep his spellcssting was luck. No way to foresee that and, IIRC, Reddie himself was surprised.



Not sure that Redcloak actually needed to cast any spells for helping turn Xykon into a lich.

[Peelee]

Oh, sure, she hasn't gone to the level of giving him the thing he wants most of all, sure. But I sure do call "actively attacking and attempting to neutralize people that seek to stop him" a form of active help. Just because she's not knocking down all the barriers in Xykon's path doesn't make her knocking down these specific barriers any more acceptable or justified.

She's actively helping Xykon right now. She cleared out the scouting team that had important information that the Order of the Stick could've used to create a solid ambush of Xykon, and diverted them when they were prepared to ambush him at point-blank range when the opportunity came. That's a pretty hefty amount of support that she's given to the villain who murdered her friends and turned her into a Three-Eightsling.

The Order was on the cusp of giving up one of the Gate defenses in the (likely) scenario that their attack failed. They already gave up a big hint with their disappearance. Serini seems to me to believe that while Xykon cannot be beaten, the Gate defenses may be able to prevent him from winning, and the Order's actions, while not deliberate, are an active hindrance to that.

Shes not actively helping him and more than the Order is actively helping him by showing him the tricks that are being used to stop him from getting to his goal.



Not sure that Redcloak actually needed to cast any spells for helping turn Xykon into a lich.



A lich is an undead spellcaster, usually a wizard or sorcerer but sometimes a cleric or other spellcaster, who has used its magical powers to unnaturally extend its life.
It looks like license was used so that one caster can turn another person into a lich instead of just themselves, but the basis of the creature still seems to be magically created/tranformed. It's not explicit, and it could be handwaved away just like the "self" bit, but I wouldn't expect that to be the case.

[dancrilis]

Shes not actively helping him and more than the Order is actively helping him by showing him the tricks that are being used to stop him from getting to his goal.

I would argue that they have been more actively helpful then she has been.

But more importantly her mission is 'save world' which she is commited to even if Xykon ends up ruling it - the Order might not agree, which puts them as a potential threat to her mission.

Edit:


It looks like license was used so that one caster can turn another person into a lich instead of just themselves, but the basis of the creature still seems to be magically created/tranformed. It's not explicit, and it could be handwaved away just like the "self" bit, but I wouldn't expect that to be the case.
I think given the base change to the transformation that linking Redcloak's spellcasting to it is suspect.

I would also wonder if a wizard if high enough level but who hasn't any spells prepared could not become a lich but one with a cantrip prepared could - so I am dubious about the strictness of the casts spells requirement even in base (similiarly if you can cast from a scroll or want etc).

[Jay R]

I wonder how many other rescue parties O-Chul needed before, to get a nice baseline to compare with the order.

None, I suspect. The baseline for measuring a rescue is where you were right before the rescue.

Before rescue: tortured daily by Xykon, picking up important information one saving throw at a time.
After rescue: Back with liege lord, healed fully, in comfortable surroundings, having reported on important information.

That's really all the information you need for your evaluation. Conclusion: "Five stars, would be rescued by again."

[Wraithfighter]

The Order was on the cusp of giving up one of the Gate defenses in the (likely) scenario that their attack failed. They already gave up a big hint with their disappearance. Serini seems to me to believe that while Xykon cannot be beaten, the Gate defenses may be able to prevent him from winning, and the Order's actions, while not deliberate, are an active hindrance to that.

Except that the attack takes place after the point that she got involved and started mucking up the OOTS' plans. Sure, it's entirely possible that they would've found themselves in a similar situation anyway, but by preventing them from linking up with Lien and O-chul safely, comparing any notes that can't be summed up in 25 words, and most importantly understanding what the Paladins have figured out about the doors and gates, things went crazy.

Seriri's responsible for that. She's not the only one, sure, but her actions, done in a manner that would help Xykon's efforts, were the first untoward steps towards this path. She shares just as much blame for any downside to that potential ambush of the main villain, especially since her method there was less "don't do that guys some with me lets plan things out" but instead "time to neutralize more good guys trying to stop the main villain". Sorry, but she does not get to dodge any blame on this front here. She's actively helping Xykon, period.

[Peelee]

But more importantly her mission is 'save world' which she is commited to even if Xykon ends up ruling it - the Order might not agree, which puts them as a potential threat to her mission.

That I'll totally agree on. She's wrong, of course, and getting her to realize that is no small weapon in their arsenal of "turn her to their side if only they can get her to listen", but yeah, I'm with you 100% on that.

Except that the attack takes place after the point that she got involved and started mucking up the OOTS' plans.

Because if she doesn't Neutralize them, they'll go right back to doing what they were to start with. I fail to see the problem.

[Ekim One-Eye]

By the end of this tale the Azurites may consider V the greatest wizard of all time


Except the HELLFIRE TRIO still have vetoes left.

[Wraithfighter]

Because if she doesn't Neutralize them, they'll go right back to doing what they were to start with. I fail to see the problem.

Durkon only emphasized talking with Redcloak after their efforts at contacting Serini, Lien and O-Chul failed. If O-Chul and Lien had been present there, it's quite likely that discussion about meeting with Redcloak would've been tabled in favor of comparing notes, particularly since its probable that Step 1 would've been extracting Lien and O-Chul back to the airship to have a safe discussion on the topic.

Should we expect Serini to see 50 decisions into the future? Of course not. But by robbing OOTS of critical scouting intel for no other reason than her irrational terror of the big bad lich, she set things in motion down this path. She's deep in the wrong here, and she keeps digging herself in deeper.

This also gets into the issue with the Gate's defenses: It's not going to stop Xykon. It's stalling him out immeasurably, and it deserves credit for that, but eventually they'll have to switch plans and there's no reason to be going "maybe they'll never consider the possibility of epic-level, subtle traps". It might happen in a day, a week, a month, a year, or a decade, but Xykon's a Lich and Redcloak's lifespan is unnaturally extended by virtue of the Mantle. As I've said in previous threads, she's bought a marvelous amount of time, but she's completely and utterly wasting all of it. And by doing everything she can to prevent people from defeating Xykon, she's turning into a really fantastic ally of his, really top notch job of hers, kudos to the last living member of the Scribbles, Team Evil's Employee of the Month!

[Oromin]

Serini is definitely overestimating Xykon. Yes, he beat her — when he faced her out in the open without her having access to any of her rogue skills. Since then, he got destroyed by a random midlevel fighter, outright lost to one of her former companions while making a serious effort, and the only reason he didn't have his phylactery chucked into the rift was the hand of the author. And right now, with her, are witnesses to or authors of those defeats. Hopefully they can help her reason overcome her fear.

That said, she probably doesn't have such overwhelming fear of Redcloak. Redcloak is powerful and clever, but I don't think he has much in the way of answers to an antimagic ambush like the one Serini sprung on the Order. Is it just that he spends enough time with Xykon that Serini is afraid to move against him either?

He wasn't trying to kill the Order at Dorukan's Gate though. He needed them alive to unlock it for him. The fact that throwing him into the Gate was enough to one shot him is just as much the hand of the author. It certainly isn't going to happen twice. Even Roy admits it was a fluke.

I always felt like the fight with Soon was a close thing. Redcloak didn't show up till halfway through and still managed to take out all of Soon's backup. We don't know how much HP Soon still had at the end of the fight.

[dancrilis]

That I'll totally agree on. She's wrong, of course

I am not sure she is - if Roy has to make the call between no world and Xykon runs the world I am not sure the choice he would make.

Now Roy would likely say 'save world and don't let it be run by an evil lich' is the option he is going for but if that was off the table I am unsure which side he would go with.

Or perhaps more directly 'allow the ritual' or 'destroy the gate' I am not sure where he would sit on those two options.

[Peelee]

Durkon only emphasized talking with Redcloak after their efforts at contacting Serini, Lien and O-Chul failed. If O-Chul and Lien had been present there, it's quite likely that discussion about meeting with Redcloak would've been tabled in favor of comparing notes, particularly since its probable that Step 1 would've been extracting Lien and O-Chul back to the airship to have a safe discussion on the topic.

Should we expect Serini to see 50 decisions into the future? Of course not. But by robbing OOTS of critical scouting intel for no other reason than her irrational terror of the big bad lich, she set things in motion down this path.

"Robbing" the Order of critical intel? She's not beholden to give them everything they want to know. She "robbed" them of nothing, just as they did not "rob" her of critical intel that could have influenced her decisions once they arrived by not giving everything out part and parcel over their sendings.

I am not sure she is - if Roy has to make the call between no world and Xykon runs the world I am not sure the choice he would make.

Now Roy would likely say 'save world and don't let it be run by an evil lich' is the option he is going for but if that was off the table I am unsure which side he would go with.

Or perhaps more directly 'allow the ritual' or 'destroy the gate' I am not sure where he would sit on those two options.

Given that binary choice, I feel safe in saying that I fully believe Roy would not choose "destroy the Gate". And I would be sorely disappointed if that is anything less than completely accurate.

[elros]

I like what the Giant is doing in this strip:

Haley is the voice of everyone who is angry at Serini,
O-Chul and Lien the voices of everyone who are saying the Order should be given a chance to fight Xykon,
Serini is explaining why she is traumatized, which is the opinion of many of her defenders.
I don't know if the Giant read the forums, but if he did, he has done a great job of addressing issues in-strip (the other example was V's use of dispel magic).

[Wraithfighter]

"Robbing" the Order of critical intel? She's not beholden to give them everything they want to know. She "robbed" them of nothing, just as they did not "rob" her of critical intel that could have influenced her decisions once they arrived by not giving everything out part and parcel over their sendings.

She ambushed and abducted O-Chul and Lien without provocation or warning. That's the robbing of critical intel I'm talking about. Unless your argument is that by merely being in the general vicinity of the Gate complex she's entitled to do whatever she wants to people, she's outright in the wrong here. And yes, one of the results of that was that the key scouting info that Lien and O-Chul could've given the order was taken. Hence "robbing the Order of critical intel".

[Rogan]

None, I suspect. The baseline for measuring a rescue is where you were right before the rescue.

Before rescue: tortured daily by Xykon, picking up important information one saving throw at a time.
After rescue: Back with liege lord, healed fully, in comfortable surroundings, having reported on important information.

That's really all the information you need for your evaluation. Conclusion: "Five stars, would be rescued by again."

Oh, I don't know...
This interpretation would mean that the order would get a worse result now, since the situation is not as bad. And the likely outcome is not that good either. It's still freaking cold up north, Team Evil is still dangerously close, etc.

I think a fair evaluation might take the difficulty of the rescue into account, but other things should be more important.
Using the end point of the rescue as a part of the evaluation is fine as well.
But things like the preparation of the rescue team, the time to arrival, amount of work required by the prisoner, execution of side missions etc. should be more important.

[Peelee]

She ambushed and abducted O-Chul and Lien without provocation or warning. That's the robbing of critical intel I'm talking about. Unless your argument is that by merely being in the general vicinity of the Gate complex she's entitled to do whatever she wants to people, she's outright in the wrong here. And yes, one of the results of that was that the key scouting info that Lien and O-Chul could've given the order was taken. Hence "robbing the Order of critical intel".

She only did that once they explicitly talked about trying to find the Gate. Unless your argument is they're entitled to muck around with her Gate with her defenses, while they tried to destroy their own Gate just to prevent Xykon from getting it, then no, she's not outright in the wrong there. They knew the deal with the Gates - don't mess with the defenses of the other ones. They can argue all they want to that the destruction of their gate means they can go to another one, but those words are worth their weight in gold for all that it matters to the actual defender of another Gate. To use the parlance of our time, they ****ed around and found out.

[Hurkyl]

She only did that once they explicitly talked about trying to find the Gate. Unless your argument is they're entitled to muck around with her Gate with her defenses, while they tried to destroy their own Gate just to prevent Xykon from getting it, then no, she's not outright in the wrong there. They knew the deal with the Gates - don't mess with the defenses of the other ones. They can argue all they want to that the destruction of their gate means they can go to another one, but those words are worth their weight in gold for all that it matters to the actual defender of another Gate. To use the parlance of our time, they ****ed around and found out.
And to drive home the point


Serini: No spying, no "just checking in" visits, no nothing. We leave here today and that's it. We're done with each other.
Shojo: They agreed, and swore an oath to that effect.

Furthermore, the protagonists' presence is totally sketchy. The whole reason the Order was originally railroaded into this campaign was so that Shojo could violate this agreement without the Sapphire Guard getting upset about it. And later, Hinjo used the Sapphire Guard's failure to defend a gate as an excuse to void his Paladin's oaths so they could involve themselves in the other gates. Maybe that excuse was even built-in by Soon, whether intentional or not.

[Wraithfighter]

She only did that once they explicitly talked about trying to find the Gate. Unless your argument is they're entitled to muck around with her Gate with her defenses, while they tried to destroy their own Gate just to prevent Xykon from getting it, then no, she's not outright in the wrong there. They knew the deal with the Gates - don't mess with the defenses of the other ones. They can argue all they want to that the destruction of their gate means they can go to another one, but those words are worth their weight in gold for all that it matters to the actual defender of another Gate. To use the parlance of our time, they ****ed around and found out.

Oh, so they talked about doing a thing! Gasp! The unbridled affront of them! The impudence, to do some direct scouting when there's no indication that the Gate has any guardians but the passive ones! What temerity of them!

But hey, I'm sure that the Rogue is a much better person to discuss the rules and morality with than the pair of Paladins.

You keep seeming to be arguing that as long as it makes sense to Serini, then she shouldn't be blame for her actions. But she's been helping Xykon out here for long enough that I just can't see any sense in that kind of argument, and I've got little patience for people who are willing to assault, abduct, brainwash, and who knows what else innocent people in order to preserve a status quo that has no chance of actually being maintained forever.

"No", says Serini, "Don't try to stop the big bad, just let him continue to idle here forever and ever, surely he'll never figure out a way past the trap that you losers who have no chance of actually defeating him managed to detect and evade on your first attempt! This is clearly a foolproof plan, and I'm so sure of it that I'm going to keep doing whatever's required to make sure no one manages to get in his way!"

Because at this point, why not give Xykon the Gate? She's stripped it of those looking to defend it proactively, she's refusing to act herself, she says that he's utterly unstoppable, she's thrown away every single bit of purchased time.

So, please, tell me what her plan is that doesn't amount to "...and Xykon will probably take the Gate anyway". Because if she doesn't have one, and she's getting in the way of everyone else trying to stop him from getting it, then she might as well just cut out the middleman and give it to him, because at least that way she stops the Gate from being destroyed first.

Or, maybe, just maybe...

...Serini's being completely irrational, and logic has nothing to do with how she's acting now, which explains why the defender of the final Gate has been helping the enemy so much.

[JonahFalcon]

ha ha! never got to read a comic before even the topic thread came up!

"Five star, would be rescued by again" is a great line! :smallbiggrin:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0733.html

Belkar only gave his jail 3 stars, but would be incarcerated again.

[Peelee]

Oh, so they talked about doing a thing! Gasp! The unbridled affront of them! The impudence, to do some direct scouting when there's no indication that the Gate has any guardians but the passive ones! What temerity of them!

Yeah, and Serini will place them unharmed in a different t area with no recollection of what to do, and in no immediate danger. What a horrid psychopath. I hope that Xykon brutally murders her for such a dastardly plan.

[Wraithfighter]

Yeah, and Serini will place them unharmed in a different t area with no recollection of what to do, and in no immediate danger. What a horrid psychopath. I hope that Xykon brutally murders her for such a dastardly plan.

You forgot "while the world is conquered by an evil Lich because he has access to a power that even the Gods fear", and that's only operating on the info that Serini's allowed herself to be informed of. Totally nothing at all to worry about there.

Serini: Team Evil's Employee of the Month. Best to just create the plaque for her.

[Peelee]

You forgot "while the world is conquered by an evil Lich because he has access to a power that even the Gods fear", and that's only operating on the info that Serini's allowed herself to be informed of. Totally nothing at all to worry about there.

We can play this game all day long. They burned down their house, camped outside of hers, and talked about how to pick the locks and find the matches. Only then did they get hit with the "no trespassers" gun. And they knew about the "this means you" clause. Notwithstanding that they swore to protect the very thing they tried to destroy, and also swore to never go to hers, of course. But hey, you want Serini to twirl her mustache of idiocy so it's perfectly fine to ignore every actually valid concern that she has just so you can be happy with hwo you've already judged her. You do you, man. I certainly won't be able to stop you.

[dancrilis]

Given that binary choice, I feel safe in saying that I fully believe Roy would not choose "destroy the Gate". And I would be sorely disappointed if that is anything less than completely accurate.

Last time he destroyed the gate while admitting he didn't know the potential consequences - one of those consequences might have been that one gate alone couldn't do the job.

Seperately we know that even without Xykon and with knowing that the gates are foundational to reality he would have destoyed Dorukan's gate anyway (panels 1+2 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html)) just top keep it out of Redcloak's hands.

He might have changed his mind more recently after his actions in Girard's gate did nearly destroy the world via the deities (panel 9 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1198.html) indicates that), but allowing the ritual effectively has him gambling that an evil goblin and evil lich getting what they want with one of the pillars of reality is better then letting the gods (most of whom are not evil) decide.

If Roy was back in Girard's gate knowing what he knows now would he do anything differently - I am not convinced he would.

[Wraithfighter]

We can play this game all day long. They burned down their house, camped outside of hers, and talked about how to pick the locks and find the matches. Only then did they get hit with the "no trespassers" gun. And they knew about the "this means you" clause. Notwithstanding that they swore to protect the very thing they tried to destroy, and also swore to never go to hers, of course. But hey, you want Serini to twirl her mustache of idiocy so it's perfectly fine to ignore every actually valid concern that she has just so you can be happy with hwo you've already judged her. You do you, man. I certainly won't be able to stop you.

Not mustache of idiocy, mustache of irrationality borne of terror.

The point is that her actions are not logical. She claims she wants to prevent the world from being destroyed and that Xykon cannot be stopped, but if that were the case, she would have just given him the Gate on arrival, that way no one would have time to destroy it before he could take it, because to her that's the only way that he could be stopped.

So, either she thinks that there's some "non-destroy-the-world" manner in which Xykon could be stopped, which she's given zero indications of so we can probably dismiss that as a realistic possibility, she thinks some sort of hail mary will come around to save everything, which doesn't seem to be the case because OOTS is giving her plenty of signs that this is the hail mary she'd have been waiting for, she earnestly thinks that her Gate's defenses will stall Xykon out indefinitely, which is a terrible plan...

...or she's paralyzed by fear and indecision, because she doesn't want Xykon to win, but doesn't know a way for Xykon to not win, and can only see all the ways in which the actions by others will make things fall to pot and, as Roy's father put it, she's the highest level PC in the area, its her battle to lose, so why can't she think of something, think of anything, at least, at least if she stops these rubes from getting involved she can buy more time, yeah, buy more time, maybe she'll think of something later, maybe something else will come up...

That's where I'm seeing her at, in terms of the big picture. And the end result of all of that is that she's helping Xykon win, because every one of her actions does nothing but make that more likely. It doesn't matter that there's other things she could do that would make it certain that he'd win, just that every time she's gotten involved with the Paladins and the Order of the Stick, the result has been in Xykon's favor.

[Hurkyl]

Seperately we know that even without Xykon and with knowing that the gates are foundational to reality he would have destoyed Dorukan's gate anyway (panels 1+2 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html)) just top keep it out of Redcloak's hands.
To be fair, Roy was playing along with his lawyer's defense strategy, so we can't be certain how completely truthful Roy is being.


He might have changed his mind more recently after his actions in Girard's gate did nearly destroy the world via the deities (panel 9 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1198.html) indicates that), but allowing the ritual effectively has him gambling that an evil goblin and evil lich getting what they want with one of the pillars of reality is better then letting the gods (most of whom are not evil) decide.

If Roy was back in Girard's gate knowing what he knows now would he do anything differently - I am not convinced he would.
I agree. For example, I find certainly in the realm of plausibility that Roy could find himself of the opinion

The gods are capable of isolating the snarl in the prime material plane and protecting the rest of the multiverse should the last gate be destroyed.
The gods would be too tied up in their red tape to act preemptively should Team Evil start the ritual.
and thus feel compelled to trigger the first option to save the rest of the multiverse.

[Mariele]

Okay, now I feel sorry for the poor halfling lady.

(Makes me wonder how she'd feel about the news that Soon almost killed Xykon and Redcloak.)
And V mysteriously killing the entire Draketooth clan with one spell, but still not being able to kill Xykon and Redcloak. :P

Poor Serini. This definitely fits in with her defeatist comment about enjoying existing.

[Peelee]

Not mustache of idiocy, mustache of irrationality borne of terror.

And that's the kicker. Some of her decision making is irrational, sure. Like believing that Xykon cannot be beaten. Some of it is rational, though, like believing that a group that destroyed multiple Gates to prevent Xykon from getting them may destroy hers to prevent Xykon from getting them. This is not outlandish - again, the Sapphire Guard, whose entire existance was (at the risk of being tautological) to guard the sapphire, tried to destroy it instead, despite knowing that it was, as Belkar put it, a belt loop keeping the pants of the universe on. And then, despite swearing to never interfere with the other Gates, move to interfere with her Gate. Now, sure, we know they have the best of intentions, and we know that they will absolutely not blow the last Gate. But Serini does not know that. And that's a pretty damned important point. These are people who devoted their entire lives in service to one specific goal, and then betrayed that goal immediately the second it looked like Xykon was actually going to get it. That's an enormous 180 to pull, especially on the spur of the moment. They swore to Serini that they wouldn't blow her Gate, but they also swore to Soon and later Shojo's dad and later Shojo that they would defend their own Gate, and yet. She has good and valid reason to not trust them. Even moreso if she knows they ahcw teamed up with the Order of the Stick, who destroyed two Gates - one accidentally and through nothing but sheer carelessness and stupidity (which, while not as bad as "intentionally while knowing exactly what it was", still is not a great hill to die on) and then one intentionally while knowing exactly what it was!

She also makes a logically sound argument: Xykon ruling the world is, inarguably, better than the world being destroyed to prevent that. Again, here she lacks vital information, such as that Xykon will never get to rule the world and he gods would pull the plug on him. But, lacking that information, she makes a perfectly sound argument.

Also, she's not wrong about the paladins. Xykon defeated Serini, sure, but he also defeated Lirian and Dorukan, who were more powerful than Serini. It stands to reason he'd be able to beat Serini. So if Serini can defeat the paladins, then even teaming up they wouldn't be able to do anything to stop Xykon. She might be snapped into a possibility of realization once the Order defeats her that they, plus her, plus the paladins, might stand a chance. That, along with the rest of what the Order knows about the gods, might well get her to change course. I sure think so, because that case is compelling as hell. But they have to get her in position where they can explain it to her, and so far she hasn't done half bad in showing the Order how outclassed they are (or, really, trying to show herself) all on her lonesome. Given what all she knows (even though she is wrong), she is making perfectly valid steps.

That's all I've been saying. That's all I've ever been saying. The single biggest issue is that she is wrong, not that she is irrational. Hell, her fear isn't even really irrational, it's plenty rational given what happened. But even going with irrationality, all that does is reinforce her already wrong beliefs. Her wrong beliefs are the pillar holding everything up. The irrationaloty is just a character flaw.

[Snails]

(...skipping ahead)

I just realized that O-Chul may be vastly overestimating V. We, the Readers, know that it is the MitD that got him out of trouble, before. But O-Chul may assume that V pulled out some magic that is beyond his understanding.

[TooSoon]

Not mustache of idiocy, mustache of irrationality borne of terror.

The point is that her actions are not logical. She claims she wants to prevent the world from being destroyed and that Xykon cannot be stopped, but if that were the case, she would have just given him the Gate on arrival, that way no one would have time to destroy it before he could take it, because to her that's the only way that he could be stopped.

So, either she thinks that there's some "non-destroy-the-world" manner in which Xykon could be stopped, which she's given zero indications of so we can probably dismiss that as a realistic possibility, she thinks some sort of hail mary will come around to save everything, which doesn't seem to be the case because OOTS is giving her plenty of signs that this is the hail mary she'd have been waiting for, she earnestly thinks that her Gate's defenses will stall Xykon out indefinitely, which is a terrible plan...

...or she's paralyzed by fear and indecision, because she doesn't want Xykon to win, but doesn't know a way for Xykon to not win, and can only see all the ways in which the actions by others will make things fall to pot and, as Roy's father put it, she's the highest level PC in the area, its her battle to lose, so why can't she think of something, think of anything, at least, at least if she stops these rubes from getting involved she can buy more time, yeah, buy more time, maybe she'll think of something later, maybe something else will come up...

That's where I'm seeing her at, in terms of the big picture. And the end result of all of that is that she's helping Xykon win, because every one of her actions does nothing but make that more likely. It doesn't matter that there's other things she could do that would make it certain that he'd win, just that every time she's gotten involved with the Paladins and the Order of the Stick, the result has been in Xykon's favor.

Serini's behavior certainly isn't terribly rational... but at least she's correct in understanding the role of casters in the hierarchy. If Dorukan and Lirian were beaten, she's got no chance on her own... except she's not on her own, and the other side has casters too, and a pet monster that is a living, unlimited anti-caster device.

[CommonError]

She also makes a logically sound argument: Xykon ruling the world is, inarguably, better than the world being destroyed to prevent that. Again, here she lacks vital information, such as that Xykon will never get to rule the world and he gods would pull the plug on him. But, lacking that information, she makes a perfectly sound argument.

That logic isn't sound though. There's an afterlife, after all, and the souls can be saved if the world is destroyed. The only people who suffer from that (as opposed to going where their alignment would dictate) are the dwarves, and it doesn't seem like their predicament is particularly common knowledge since Malack didn't know of it (from strip 737). But even discounting that, Xykon tormenting the world forever (remember, she just said that he was unbeatable) is not inarguably better than oblivion. Being tortured for eternity certainly seems worse than death, and while this is obviously hyperbole, it's just a matter of determining how bad things need to be in order for it to be worse than oblivion.

[BloodSquirrel]

Just here to collect some of my "called it" points.

Serini isn't thinking rationally, she isn't in control of the situation at all, and she's still fixated on escalating the fight despite being in a terrible positing to do so and has only managed to reveal more of the gate's defenses to the Order. She's had plenty of opportunities to voice arguments in her own favor, and she has consistently failed to do more than shout angrily and insult people.

And, most importantly, it turns out that she was never really counting on stopping Xykon. She doesn't think she can beat him at all, even with her gate's defenses. She isn't stalling for time because she thinks there's a realistic expectation that he'll be defeated some other way, she's just stalling. Xykon winning isn't just a possibility that she's willing to allow, it's an inevitability that she's willing to accept as such. Even her claim that somebody would come along to beat him someday has been revealed as disingenuous (Something that I specifically pointed out, btw).

And she hasn't even hit rock bottom yet. This is just going to keep getting uglier for anyone who wants to continue tying themselves in knots trying to pretend that the comic is going to wind up validating Serini, her decisions so far, or her opinion on the Order.

[Peelee]

That logic isn't sound though. There's an afterlife, after all, and the souls can be saved if the world is destroyed. The only people who suffer from that (as opposed to going where their alignment would dictate) are the dwarves, and it doesn't seem like their predicament is particularly common knowledge since Malack didn't know of it (from strip 737). But even discounting that, Xykon tormenting the world forever (remember, she just said that he was unbeatable) is not inarguably better than oblivion. Being tortured for eternity certainly seems worse than death, and while this is obviously hyperbole, it's just a matter of determining how bad things need to be in order for it to be worse than oblivion.

Even if Xykon wins, nobody is being tortured for eternity. The afterlife still exists, souls still go to their destination. Meanwhile, if the last Gate is blown and the Snarl destroys the world, then the souls may well be eaten/destroyed. Serini wasn't at the Godsmoot, she didn't hear Loki say they can still pull everyone out. So far as we know, her knowledge is the same knowledge that Shojo told the Order.

So even with the afterlife, we have afterlife for people under a Xykon and no afterlife for people with world destruction, as far as Serini knows. Still sound. Still only due to her being wrong, which is a fixable state.

This is just going to keep getting uglier for anyone who wants to continue tying themselves in knots trying to pretend that the comic is going to wind up validating Serini, her decisions so far, or her opinion on the Order.

Funny, every thread I hear about these people but I never seen to have read any of their posts. Maybe they talk off-site?

[BloodSquirrel]

That logic isn't sound though. There's an afterlife, after all, and the souls can be saved if the world is destroyed. The only people who suffer from that (as opposed to going where their alignment would dictate) are the dwarves, and it doesn't seem like their predicament is particularly common knowledge since Malack didn't know of it (from strip 737). But even discounting that, Xykon tormenting the world forever (remember, she just said that he was unbeatable) is not inarguably better than oblivion. Being tortured for eternity certainly seems worse than death, and while this is obviously hyperbole, it's just a matter of determining how bad things need to be in order for it to be worse than oblivion.

I've dismantled this idea before while pointing out how flawed Serini's reasoning was: This is a setting where Xykon ascending to godhood is a distinct possibility, where people's souls can be sent to the Abyss, where people can be raised as golems that feel constant pain, and where Xykon having completely dominance over the world will give him a massive amount of power to make those kinds of things happen. Hell, what if Xykon winds up actually using the snarl to wipe out one of the more benevolent pantheons? The amount of suffering that Xykon could potentially cause is incalculable. It is most certainly not inarguably less than that caused by immediately destroying the world.

(Also, Serini has never bothered to consider the possibility that Xykon might blow the world up himself messing around with the gates- for some reason, she's assuming that he's completely competent to take control and use them without any risk of things going wrong. Xkyon. She's assuming this about Xykon.)

[Psychronia]

The Order's track record as far as rescues go is pretty good, I suppose.

Saved Elan from the bandits. Well, on take 2.
Saved Julia. There were casualties, but they couldn't have done anything about it, timewise.

....Ooof. Actually, the slaves in the Empire of Blood probably brings their success rate down quite a bit.

[Kantaki]

Am I the only one worried by that forgetfullness cauldron there? Would be potion effects on ingestion, touch, or injected?

Inhalation.:smalltongue:
They had this discussion a good dozen times already. :smallbiggrin:

[Ivrytwr]

Lovely! O-chul's optimism fills with joy and laughter.
Thanks Giant.

[BloodSquirrel]

Funny, every thread I hear about these people but I never seen to have read any of their posts. Maybe they talk off-site?

I'll give you one free one:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?637233-OOTS-1245-The-Discussion-Thread/page17&p=25228263#post25228263

There's you insisting that, no, she really does have plan here, guys!

Of course, if anyone here actually didn't read the last few strip discussion threads, or is a little hazy on what was posted there, I'd recommend going through and reading them to at least get the gist of the conversation before confidently insisting that "Nobody every said such a thing!". People did, in fact, say a lot of things. A lot of very silly things. Too many to drag onto this thread, even if it was wise to do so.

For anyone who hasn't read those threads and isn't interested in getting mired in that swamp, they can just keep scrolling until the next debate comes up where one side will dig a hole for themselves, insist they're on top of Mount Everest for ten strips, then deny that it ever happened.

[Hurkyl]

I'll give you one free one:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?637233-OOTS-1245-The-Discussion-Thread/page17&p=25228263#post25228263

There's you insisting that, no, she really does have plan here, guys!
A: If Serini had a plan, she would have told the Paladins.
B: Why would she?
C: Hey everybody look! B is insisting Serini has a plan!

[137beth]

So I know I'm kinda late to this discussion, but OMNGs I love seeing a callback to what for a long time was my favorite scene in the comic.

[CommonError]

Even if Xykon wins, nobody is being tortured for eternity. The afterlife still exists, souls still go to their destination. Meanwhile, if the last Gate is blown and the Snarl destroys the world, then the souls may well be eaten/destroyed. Serini wasn't at the Godsmoot, she didn't hear Loki say they can still pull everyone out. So far as we know, her knowledge is the same knowledge that Shojo told the Order.

So even with the afterlife, we have afterlife for people under a Xykon and no afterlife for people with world destruction, as far as Serini knows. Still sound. Still only due to her being wrong, which is a fixable state.

They may not be getting tortured for eternity, but while existing on the material plane they would be tortured (or oppressed, or whatever other crappy situation Xykon would put them in). Suffering on the material plane + an afterlife is still worse than just afterlife. Plus, when the world is recreated, everyone who's born there will be better off than under Xykon's rule. So really, the scenario is the current material world where everyone suffers + afterlife vs another material world that's normal + an afterlife for everyone in this world. Keep in mind, in the former situation every new soul is going through aforementioned suffering, whereas in the latter new souls get a regular life. In other words, the former essentially will have infinitely more suffering because it will last forever and everyone will be worse off.

Nothing that Shojo said implied that the souls would be destroyed in the event of the world being destroyed. That only happens if the Snarl consumes the world, not if the gods destroy the world first, and there's nothing that says the gods can't destroy the world if the Snarl gets free. They didn't do it the first time because it was the first time they encountered it, but there's nothing saying that they couldn't have developed ways to destroy the world and save the souls in case the Snarl ever got free again. However, even if all the souls would be destroyed, I'd argue that condemning every future generation to a lifetime of suffering just so that those currently living aren't completely destroyed is ultimately selfish and a bad thing to do.

But I don't want to get into a long argument about this, and I doubt you'd ever change your mind. It's certainly true though that Xykon's rule is not inarguably better than the world getting destroyed.

[elros]

People can judge Serini for her actions, but I want to point out the following ways Serini has been traumatized:

She saw Kraagor get erased by the Snarl. Although it is not stated, I suspect the Order of the Scribble tried to resurrect Kraagor, and their failure to do so likely makes Serini fear the Snarl more than anything.
She saw the two epic casters in her party get absolutely curb stomped by Xykon. Check out SoD and you will see that lich-form Xykon played both battles for laughs.
Although we don't know it for certain, it is likely that Serini knows that the entire Drakentooth clan was killed.
Serini was heavily damaged by Xykon, and she admits that she is only alive because Xykon does not consider her important enough to kill.
Serini is acting rationally if you consider that she is more scared of the Snarl than Xykon, and that she believes that Xykon cannot be defeated. If you want to say that Serini is acting irrationally, it is because she is traumatized, and she has every reason to be irrational.

I have one question about will happen next: do you think V will inform O-Chul that, in fact, V did not rescue him from Xykon, and that Xykon defeated V despite having the soul splice? That information may knock the 5 star rating.

[Sapphire Guard]

If we shelve all our meta knowledge, is there any reason for Serini to believe the Order is capable of doing anything to thwart Xykon? They've lost gate after gate and just got done running for their lives.

If you don't know they're the leads in a comic series, why should she believe they can do anything useful?

[Peelee]

I'll give you one free one:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?637233-OOTS-1245-The-Discussion-Thread/page17&p=25228263#post25228263

There's you insisting that, no, she really does have plan here, guys!


And, as has also been pointed out dozens of times by now, why would she? She's planning to remove their memories of the encounter, and is not seeking their approval, advice, or anything else that would necessitate her telling them that. There's no reason for her to. She's not a Bond villain.

I'm insisting that she has a plan of doing exactly what she claims she's going to do?

That is not the "gotcha" you seem to think it is.

[Potatopeelerkin]

Now I want some V + O-Chul friendship. Maybe he could give some insights in repentance for the whole familicide thing?

While certainly not as serious, he was a thief before he was a paladin.

[Liquor Box]

Dragging things out as long as possible is a fine plan - eventually Xykon or Redcloak might feel the entire dungeon is a trick and there is no gate here at all and go elsewhere, or Redcloak might hit epic levels and they might feel it both quicker and safer to rebuild one of the other gates and thereby leave hers alone while also reinforcing the universe.

Or she might teach a horse to talk.


Listen to what? Nobody has said anything of substance to her yet.
Pointing out that Serini's own observation that "these adventurers" are tougher than she expected might undermine her previous assumption that they wouldn't be able to beat Xykon was something of substance, and something that has been pointed out by posters.

Serini hasn't listened yet. But her refuting the point by saying that Xykon beat her and her friends so must be unbeatable is so weak that I doubt a realisation is far off.


You mean, besides O'chul pointing out that Serini's severely underestimated the Order's abilities and how her assumption that they cannot defeat Xykon is a severely flawed one?


Ninja'd

[Ruck]

Conservation of detail means it's probably going to get spilled on someone. It is a whole cauldron and it ain't just meant for two!

But will it be the Order, the paladins... or Serini herself?


Conservation of detail is overrated.


It's already served a narrative purpose: it explained what Serini was planning to do with her prisoners that she was unwilling to kill.

Using it again is possible, but I wouldn't say it's unused.

Dang, you two beat me to it.


By the end of this tale the Azurites may consider V the greatest wizard of all time

Well, the people who might think otherwise (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html) kinda lost their say in the matter.


Yes. This is what I came here to say.

I think we know how Belkar Bitterleaf breathes his last … he forgets the horrible person that he was and becomes the slightly better person he how is.

Bonus points if he does this on purpose to save the others, a Good act.

Don't count me in that "we."


And some readers predict that another monster related to the MitD will be here in Serini's dungeon.

Another one you can count me out for, although I find it less implausible than any "Belkar's death won't involve him actually, really dying" theories.


I would argue that they have been more actively helpful then she has been.

But more importantly her mission is 'save world' which she is commited to even if Xykon ends up ruling it - the Order might not agree, which puts them as a potential threat to her mission.

Yeah, this is a point I've been trying to make for a long time.

And, as Peelee already mentioned, Serini only moved to subdue the paladins when they began talking about finding the Gate, and when she confronted the Order, they were in the midst of a plan that would expose one of the Gate's defenses Team Evil hadn't discovered yet.


Given that binary choice, I feel safe in saying that I fully believe Roy would not choose "destroy the Gate". And I would be sorely disappointed if that is anything less than completely accurate.

I would expect so, given that Roy knows this is the last gate and that he knows everything about the Godsmoot and Thor's mission for Durkon. Of course, Serini has no reason to think that, or even to know the relevant information Roy knows even exists.


Funny, every thread I hear about these people but I never seen to have read any of their posts. Maybe they talk off-site?

I've never seen them either. BloodSquirrel sure seems to know a lot of them, though.


A: If Serini had a plan, she would have told the Paladins.
B: Why would she?
C: Hey everybody look! B is insisting Serini has a plan!

Or maybe it's that.

[Peelee]

Well, the people who might think otherwise (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html) kinda lost their say in the matter.

https://c.tenor.com/n6WK-ST5wOMAAAAC/friday-chris-tucker.gif

For reals, that was cold.

[Liquor Box]

The Order beating Xykon was a fluke, and Soon had an army of paladins (twice).

"Xykon is unbeatable, period!" is a pretty strong statement. The word 'period' suggests no exceptions.

Someone able to be beaten by flukes is not unbeatable. Someone able to be beaten by an army of paladins is not unbeatable.

It is possible that Serini knows less about what's been going on than most of us assume, and didn't know about those two fights.

[Rrmcklin]

This establishes Serini as a person largely driven by personal hangups that are likely clouding her perspective on things, while still not invalidating several points she's made that still have merit. So basically what I think most people were already assuming.

I do think one of those hangups was a lack of self-worth was what anyone expected, though that is interesting.

[Mastikator]

Every comic with O-Chul is a treasure.

[Liquor Box]

Last time he destroyed the gate while admitting he didn't know the potential consequences - one of those consequences might have been that one gate alone couldn't do the job.

Seperately we know that even without Xykon and with knowing that the gates are foundational to reality he would have destoyed Dorukan's gate anyway (panels 1+2 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0282.html)) just top keep it out of Redcloak's hands.

He might have changed his mind more recently after his actions in Girard's gate did nearly destroy the world via the deities (panel 9 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1198.html) indicates that), but allowing the ritual effectively has him gambling that an evil goblin and evil lich getting what they want with one of the pillars of reality is better then letting the gods (most of whom are not evil) decide.

If Roy was back in Girard's gate knowing what he knows now would he do anything differently - I am not convinced he would.

Is your point that Roy took actions without being certain of the consequences? You are right, he did. But not taking action until you are certain of the consequences was not the right thing to do in that situation, because doing nothing would lead to the gate's seizure. Roy weighed the probable (note not certain) consequences of destroying the gate and allowing it to be captured, consulted with his allies, and made a decision. That decision appears logical based on what Roy knew, is consistent with what Shojo said and with Dorukan having a self destruct button, and appears to have been the correct choice based on what we the readers have been shown since.

[Peelee]

"Xykon is unbeatable, period!" is a pretty strong statement.

As is "Serini is wrong", which I have never been shy about stating.

[Liquor Box]

As is "Serini is wrong", which I have never been shy about stating.

Not sure how that relates. Also not sure it is such a strong statement. "Serini is always wrong, period!" might be more comparable.

Has anyone ever been arguing abotu whether Serini is wrong? I thought her wrongness was widely accepted. I think most of the discussion was whether her decisions her poor based on what she knew.

[danielxcutter]

Her actions are irrational and self-destructive, but personally I’m not as bitter about her as I used to be since she has a very understandable reason for that.

[Demon 997]

I think we're finally making progress! Half the Order breaching her sanctum, plus two soon to be freed paladins may either convince Serini that they can usefully help, or force her to accept the help.

I'm guessing the next few strips will see some real plot movement.

[Hurkyl]

I think we're finally making progress! Half the Order breaching her sanctum, plus two soon to be freed paladins may either convince Serini that they can usefully help, or force her to accept the help.
Ironically for the current arguments, that would invalidate "I don't think you paladins are going to suddenly flip and try to take over" part of Serini's dialog.

[JonahFalcon]

Meanwhile, I envision Elan and Sunny having a cheerful conversation, knowing that they might have to fight when Serini returns. I think they're capable of being friendly and chatting under those conditions.

[Stegyre]

Cannot express how much I love O-chul. His 5-stars comment and the callback to his previous rescue is pure gold.

[lcavalheiro]

More than ever, I firmly believe all that Kraagor dungeon is but a bluff. She is a rogue, after all, so nothing says she should spill all the beans in her diary. Plus, she knows she isn't the best of their original group, so a lot of deception would be expected from her gate defense planning. My guess: gate is under Kraagor statue Xykon was graffiting on it.

[Ruck]

Her actions are irrational and self-destructive, but personally I’m not as bitter about her as I used to be since she has a very understandable reason for that.

I'm curious what changed for you, since I don't think we really learned anything we didn't know already.


My guess: gate is under Kraagor statue Xykon was graffiting on it.

This has been proposed many times, and the general consensus is that this would actually make it easier for the Gate to be found.

The fact that the dungeon has a teleport trap that redirects anyone who doesn't spot it on a wild goose chase seems like plenty enough misdirection while remaining practical.

[Liquor Box]

I'm curious what changed for you, since I don't think we really learned anything we didn't know already.


Can't speak for Daniel, but I do think there are things we learned.

For example. we learned that Serini's belief that the paladins/order can't beat Xykon arises from Xykon beating her and her friends, rather than any any sort of real assessment of the Order or Paladin's abilities.

[Peelee]

More than ever, I firmly believe all that Kraagor dungeon is but a bluff. She is a rogue, after all, so nothing says she should spill all the beans in her diary. Plus, she knows she isn't the best of their original group, so a lot of deception would be expected from her gate defense planning. My guess: gate is under Kraagor statue Xykon was graffiting on it.

I would imagine that the single most obvious and easiest place to look outside of the dungeon is probably not as deceptive as it might first appear.

[danielxcutter]

Well, most of the defendants were saying she had some sort of actual plan and her reasoning was solid.

That’s not really the case.

[JonahFalcon]

Cannot express how much I love O-chul. His 5-stars comment and the callback to his previous rescue is pure gold.

Well, O-Chul stole the joke from Belkar.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0733.html

"Dark but clean, I'd give this three stars — 'Would be incarcerated again.'"

[Yendor]

I would imagine that the single most obvious and easiest place to look outside of the dungeon is probably not as deceptive as it might first appear.

As I've said before, the very fact that so many people have suggested it should show why it's a bad idea.

Maybe there should be a trap down there, to trick anyone who tries looking into thinking they're onto something.

[PattThe]

Conservation of detail means it's probably going to get spilled on someone. It is a whole cauldron and it ain't just meant for two!

But will it be the Order, the paladins... or Serini herself?

Paladins: FORGET YOUR FRIENDS AND FIGHT WITH US! Literally.
Imagine that. Man, what a way to end the final combat. Party gets her on their side by making them forget why they fear Xykon, and only for the memory magic to wear off and make her turn on everyone.

[Hurkyl]

More than ever, I firmly believe all that Kraagor dungeon is but a bluff.
You know, it strikes me we've been underestimating the potential effectiveness of "Ugh, we've cleared every entrance and none of them led to the gate. I can't believe that cheeky little halfling rogue pulled off that bluff."

[Larsaan]

You know, following on the concern that Serini might do something truly awful before this is done... I can't help but imagine that if the Order manages to neutralize her ability to fight, and she's forced to actually listen to their words, she might chug the potion herself just to avoid having to confront her own trauma.

I don't know that it's the most likely outcome, or whether her trauma runs that deep, but I definitely believe it's a possibility.

[Hurkyl]

You know, following on the concern that Serini might do something truly awful before this is done... I can't help but imagine that if the Order manages to neutralize her ability to fight, and she's forced to actually listen to their words, she might chug the potion herself just to avoid having to confront her own trauma.
Or to avoid interrogation. If she's committed to keeping everyone away and risks being forced to divulge "plot stuff we need to know", she could take the potion to avoid that outcome.

[TRH]

Or to avoid interrogation. If she's committed to keeping everyone away and risks being forced to divulge "plot stuff we need to know", she could take the potion to avoid that outcome.

How would that interact with Speak With Dead? Because that's the only way the Order reliably has of forcing someone to talk that they might be willing to go through with.

[danielxcutter]

How would that interact with Speak With Dead? Because that's the only way the Order reliably has of forcing someone to talk that they might be willing to go through with.

Speak With Dead doesn't really work if the target wouldn't have told you in life. Look at the Draketooths.

[CrimsonCantata]

O'chul's fond, almost wistful smile in that last panel absolutely melted my heart.

[Snails]

I predict that Serini will pull out some badass tricks and be on the verge of winning this fight...when Roy, Durkon, Elan show up.

Elan had a possible action or two off panel while Haley would wall climbing. We know he has Break Enchantment, and could have used it to fix Durkon. Durkon could have spent a couple round fixing Roy. The trio could get past the Beholder by a number of ways.

[Snails]

Serini is unambiguously wrong (for lack of the beneift of information from the Godsmoot and Thor), and she disappoints for an apparent lack of any kind of positive plan, except to thwart the Order for (in her mind) being too likely to jump at the chance to destroy the last Gate.

That does not make her a bad person or an idiot. Dor and Lir were beaten, to her amazement. The Sapphire Guard broken. And the group she was most likely to choose to work directly with as a desperate measure was mysteriously nuked. Panic and getting stuck in a reactionary mode is understandable here, even if she has enough clues to deduct that there are better plans, if only the situation were considered soberly.

[Hurkyl]

I wanted to add that while I too expect that Serini regards the Order as agents of the Sapphire Guard, it's not certain it's going to be that way; she only discussed her motivation for expelling the paladins. It's quite possible her opinion of them could range from anything between finding them an even greater risk to simply viewing them as unfortunately necessary collateral damage in her "expel the Sapphire Guard" plan.

We do know they thoroughly annoyed her, but not if that would actually make any substantial difference in the decision making.

[Tecatin]

okay so is it crazy i feel like belkar might have odds of getting Serini to listen? belkars come from a similar place of thinking the others have no chance and can probably relate to feeling helpless while an important caster dies and ends up feeling guilty over it. idk it just seems like him finally paying attention to the plot and those commonalities will lead to something big.

[Liquor Box]

I wanted to add that while I too expect that Serini regards the Order as agents of the Sapphire Guard, it's not certain it's going to be that way; she only discussed her motivation for expelling the paladins. It's quite possible her opinion of them could range from anything between finding them an even greater risk to simply viewing them as unfortunately necessary collateral damage in her "expel the Sapphire Guard" plan.

We do know they thoroughly annoyed her, but not if that would actually make any substantial difference in the decision making.

I agree. I think most people (including me) assumed that most of Serini's reasoning vis a vis the paladins would also apply to the Order.

But there have been a few indications that she actually knows very little about the Order. In the fight she seems to think Hayley is the leader, she says she knows who the order is through their cold calls and says nothing about nay observation, when justifying her opinion that the order can't take Xykon she doesn't say anything about their abilities only Xykon being unbeatable, and in this comic she refers to them as 'these adventurers' rather than 'your allies' or anything else more specific.

[faustin]

Everyone is taking about Serini being irrational, but nobody mentions how she casually roastes the Paladins again while passing by.
No wonder she and Girard got along so well :)

[mjasghar]

WRT to Xykon ruling the world and afterlives etc
An epic lich can stop you going to the afterlife - just ask Dorukan and Lirian. And beyond that epic necromancy spells can consume souls or warps them or even rip souls out of the afterlife. And that’s assuming he isn’t using the threat of the Snarl to blackmail godlike powers for himself.
Now, of course, we know if he tries blackmail the gods pull the plug anyway. So the former argument is from what Serini knows, which is bad enough. Of course we don’t know if he might get a chance to unleash the Snarl on an outer plane which effectively destroys afterlives for all eternity.

[Wraithfighter]

She also makes a logically sound argument: Xykon ruling the world is, inarguably, better than the world being destroyed to prevent that. Again, here she lacks vital information, such as that Xykon will never get to rule the world and he gods would pull the plug on him. But, lacking that information, she makes a perfectly sound argument.

The problem with this, as others have noted, is that it severely underestimates the amount of damage that Xykon can do if he wins. Like, lets say that the Gods aren't able to destroy the world for whatever reason, Xykon takes the Gate, destroys Redcloak's plan but gets full control over it all.

We're talking about an epic-level Lich having control over the Snarl, a creation that's so powerful that even the Gods are terrified of battling it.

Sure, maybe he'll be nothing more than a garden variety despot, it'd be nice to imagine that. But the upper bound of things that Xykon could do with that power involves me referencing the expansion to an Obsidian game. In Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer, there's an evil path that's... honestly one of the most terrifying things a player character in a video game can become.

The expansion starts off with your character being afflicted with a curse that's destroying your body and soul, and can only be sated by either consuming the souls of spirits (or the living eventually), or by trying to maintain as much control over it as possible while not indulging. If you do indulge, the things you start devouring the souls of don't just become spirits or, you know, people, but also demi gods. And then the wrecked form of the old God of Death. And if you do everything right, at the end of the game, you can fully merge with that hunger inside of you, fully unlocking its power in the complete destruction of everything that has ever harmed you, or could ever harm you. Even Kelemvor, the (rather nicer) current god of death can only banish you from his realm, and when a divine host of gods try to hunt you down... not all of them come back, and their claims of victory ring hollow.

There's a great Lets Play of the game that goes down that path, if you'd like to know more. (https://lparchive.org/Neverwinter-Nights-2-Mask-of-the-Betrayer/)

Serini suffers from a serious lack of imagination when it comes to the amount of damage that Xykon could do. And if there's one thing that this comic has made clear about Xykon, it's this: Do not underestimate the big bad Lich, either his cunning or cruelty, and I see no compelling reason why he would ever stay content with ruling a single world.

[Matt620]

In which I am reminded that I dislike Serini, like O-chul and Lien, and feel better about Haley.

[danielxcutter]

The problem with this, as others have noted, is that it severely underestimates the amount of damage that Xykon can do if he wins. Like, lets say that the Gods aren't able to destroy the world for whatever reason, Xykon takes the Gate, destroys Redcloak's plan but gets full control over it all.

We're talking about an epic-level Lich having control over the Snarl, a creation that's so powerful that even the Gods are terrified of battling it.

Sure, maybe he'll be nothing more than a garden variety despot, it'd be nice to imagine that. But the upper bound of things that Xykon could do with that power involves me referencing the expansion to an Obsidian game. In Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer, there's an evil path that's... honestly one of the most terrifying things a player character in a video game can become.

The expansion starts off with your character being afflicted with a curse that's destroying your body and soul, and can only be sated by either consuming the souls of spirits (or the living eventually), or by trying to maintain as much control over it as possible while not indulging. If you do indulge, the things you start devouring the souls of don't just become spirits or, you know, people, but also demi gods. And then the wrecked form of the old God of Death. And if you do everything right, at the end of the game, you can fully merge with that hunger inside of you, fully unlocking its power in the complete destruction of everything that has ever harmed you, or could ever harm you. Even Kelemvor, the (rather nicer) current god of death can only banish you from his realm, and when a divine host of gods try to hunt you down... not all of them come back, and their claims of victory ring hollow.

There's a great Lets Play of the game that goes down that path, if you'd like to know more. (https://lparchive.org/Neverwinter-Nights-2-Mask-of-the-Betrayer/)

Serini suffers from a serious lack of imagination when it comes to the amount of damage that Xykon could do. And if there's one thing that this comic has made clear about Xykon, it's this: Do not underestimate the big bad Lich, either his cunning or cruelty, and I see no compelling reason why he would ever stay content with ruling a single world.

Okay that ending is... harrowing. :smalleek:

So... you start devouring souls, people, demigods, and then you progress to the vestige of Myrkul and then you end up becoming more or less an Elder Evil?!

[Ekul]

I do think it's fitting that she completely underestimated them, however. She was probably expecting them to do what the paladins were doing and plan their approach, but then Durkon went straight to negotiation, and when that failed they had to go on the run. They never gave her a proper chance to sneak up on them. She just wasn't ready for them to bust out with the immediate engagement.

[Nymrod]

I'm curious what changed for you, since I don't think we really learned anything we didn't know already.



This has been proposed many times, and the general consensus is that this would actually make it easier for the Gate to be found.

The fact that the dungeon has a teleport trap that redirects anyone who doesn't spot it on a wild goose chase seems like plenty enough misdirection while remaining practical.

The thing is, it's really weird that Redcloak has not realized there is a teleport trap. The doors are far too close to each other. At some point you'd have to wonder how the different dungeons don't just merge or run into each other. Also weird that they are going in with True Seeing but NOT with Arcane Vision. Finally also weird they did not just try to circumvent the entire dungeon issue after this long by using Passwall or Etherealness (a tactic Xykon is known to use). The latter probably would NOT work since this is clearly a form of rock that blocks teleportation and likely divination but the former absolutely would.

[Vikenlugaid]

Dude, I already pointed how she wont stop to at least hear what they have to say:

They don't need her to stop to tell her things, they are talking a lot, they are just not telling her anything important, is not that they aren't having oportunities to that.

[danielxcutter]

The thing is, it's really weird that Redcloak has not realized there is a teleport trap. The doors are far too close to each other. At some point you'd have to wonder how the different dungeons don't just merge or run into each other. Also weird that they are going in with True Seeing but NOT with Arcane Vision. Finally also weird they did not just try to circumvent the entire dungeon issue after this long by using Passwall or Etherealness (a tactic Xykon is known to use). The latter probably would NOT work since this is clearly a form of rock that blocks teleportation and likely divination but the former absolutely would.

The rock also explicitly prevents him from using Ghostform - that’s because incorporeal and ethereal creatures exist on the Ethereal Plane and the rock blocks off all forms of planar travel.

[Gurgeh]

The thing is, it's really weird that Redcloak has not realized there is a teleport trap. The doors are far too close to each other. At some point you'd have to wonder how the different dungeons don't just merge or run into each other. Also weird that they are going in with True Seeing but NOT with Arcane Vision.
If you mean Arcane Sight, I'd imagine it's not being used because it's a Sor/Wiz spell (so Redcloak can't cast it) and Xykon probably has a bunch of other third-level spells he figured were more valuable.

[ziproot]

Serini is forgetting the power of action economy a team. Also, I don't remember the last time Order of the Stick made me laugh, but this comic did.*

"5 stars. Would be rescued again"

*Not to say that in a bad way. The Order of the Stick has shifted towards a more drama-oriented comic and it has done a good job of it, if the long threads of people arguing about Serini mean anything.

[The MunchKING]

I wonder if it's dawned on Serini that Xykon beat each of her friends and her ALONE, and that he only really beat Dorukan and Soon (the latter of whom she doesn't seem to be aware he "defeated") due to psychological warfare or pure unadulterated luck.

The grim irony being he's managed to defeat her by making her think those were all normal fights. She's thinking like Kraagor would rather than how a rogue would.

Is she? Or is the point that it doesn't matter if he was lucky, the fact that their power levels were close enough luck could swing it mean that he's still way more powerful than anyone she knows?

Also, the fact that he's good at psykops would make him MORE powerful (or at least more likely to win fights) not less.


Eh, the Crimson Mantle letting Reddie keep his spellcssting was luck. No way to foresee that and, IIRC, Reddie himself was surprised.

That's not Luck.

That's a God planning for things or building contingencies into his Super Artifact better than Lirian could counter.


(...skipping ahead)

I just realized that O-Chul may be vastly overestimating V. We, the Readers, know that it is the MitD that got him out of trouble, before. But O-Chul may assume that V pulled out some magic that is beyond his understanding.

Which would be quite rude of her, since she had just said she didn't have any magic that could be used for escape (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0658.html).


Serini's behavior certainly isn't terribly rational... but at least she's correct in understanding the role of casters in the hierarchy. If Dorukan and Lirian were beaten, she's got no chance on her own... except she's not on her own, and the other side has casters too, and a pet monster that is a living, unlimited anti-caster device.

If that caster wasn't also strong enough to solve a lot of his fights by physically beating people (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0653.html) with whatever blunt object is nearby.


Even if Xykon wins, nobody is being tortured for eternity.

Noone who wasn't already getting tortured for eternity in the "bad afterlives". Well, unless Xykon being in charge makes people renounce Good or Neutral and go live a life of Evil...

That's the other, more subtle destruction of Xykon winning. While the destruction of a secret order of Paladins may not be the huge morale loss it would be in other campaigns where the Paladins are more overt forces for Good, each destruction of a Bastion of Good, and each time he destroys a Defender of Good, the more demoralizing it could be to the remaining Good people. Thus, the suffering he instills, and the misery he spreads goes far beyond the actual people he murders directly or lands he conquers into a widespread abandonment of Good in the face of inexorable Evil.

It's basically Piccolo's whole deal.

[Oromin]

That logic isn't sound though. There's an afterlife, after all, and the souls can be saved if the world is destroyed. The only people who suffer from that (as opposed to going where their alignment would dictate) are the dwarves, and it doesn't seem like their predicament is particularly common knowledge since Malack didn't know of it (from strip 737). But even discounting that, Xykon tormenting the world forever (remember, she just said that he was unbeatable) is not inarguably better than oblivion. Being tortured for eternity certainly seems worse than death, and while this is obviously hyperbole, it's just a matter of determining how bad things need to be in order for it to be worse than oblivion.

Ummm... Could we table this discussion please? It's getting uncomfortably close to "When is suicide an acceptable answer to your problems?" At least for me. Or maybe I should just stop reading the thread...

[schmunzel]

Everything! Everything they know that she doesnt. She doesnt have the bigger picture. A bigger picture that might change her point of view if she knew.

The point ist they havnt said anything meaningful yet.

The only two having said anything of substance were the two Paladins - and they were not able to sway her for reasons I can understand.
I agree with the foreposters that she needs some emotional back up - like the story of oChul being rescued from the Lich by V (and better not the full story) or (and) Sunny being friends with Elan and getting healed.

As much as I like a good old chekhov's cauldron - I cant see what it would accomplish. The poison will wipe the characters memory at the plots discretion
- making the old Lady forget who she is thus denying us exposition or a (tedious?) history lesson - meh
- making the old Lady forget her fear of Xykon ? - that sounds cheap to me.
- have Belkar fall in for comedic relieve? - that might happen ...


An emotional argument like, say, embodying what the Scribble could have been if they hadn't broken up? Because I gotta say, I like that idea.

that

I fail to see how she will adopt that line of thought though - unless Belkar starts raging right now - what will emotionally tie the order to the (other) order?

sch

[bunsen_h]

People can judge Serini for her actions, but I want to point out the following ways Serini has been traumatized:

She saw Kraagor get erased by the Snarl. Although it is not stated, I suspect the Order of the Scribble tried to resurrect Kraagor, and their failure to do so likely makes Serini fear the Snarl more than anything.

I'm not sure if it's possible in OotS-world for someone to be resurrected if their body is completely gone. Rich has said that True Resurrection doesn't exist here, since it would reduce the significance of such a death. And I don't think we've encountered any mention of the Wish spell (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm), which is the level of magic needed to recreate a destroyed body.


Another one you can count me out for, although I find it less implausible than any "Belkar's death won't involve him actually, really dying" theories.

I'm not confident about it, but the Oracle's phrasing not saying anything specific about dying does suggest that it may be a weird prophecy-fulfilling thing rather than a straightforward event. Story-wise, I'm am confident that it will be a heroic end, with Belkar knowingly sacrificing himself so others will survive.


I would imagine that the single most obvious and easiest place to look outside of the dungeon is probably not as deceptive as it might first appear.

It's an octuple bluff!

Hang on, the rock faces with the doors are literally a double bluff (https://www.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/bluff/). Hm.


The thing is, it's really weird that Redcloak has not realized there is a teleport trap. The doors are far too close to each other. At some point you'd have to wonder how the different dungeons don't just merge or run into each other.

It's achievable mundanely by having a long hallway behind each door, diverging from the cliff faces, so the dungeons are spread out in the region.


Noone who wasn't already getting tortured for eternity in the "bad afterlives".

And not "eternally", since Rich has described the process of souls gradually merging into the stuff of the outer planes

[DaOldeWolf]

They don't need her to stop to tell her things, they are talking a lot, they are just not telling her anything important, is not that they aren't having oportunities to that.

That is the detail, most of what they know requires a more in depth talking to actually serve a purpose. Its like that time when Roy knew about Durkon´s exile being over but bringing it up with no context served no purpose. Spewing random information they know sounds like a poor solution. They know nothing about what she knows and how she thinks. That is the whole point in engaging in meaningful conversation. So far, she doesnt seem interested in hearing what they have to say.


The point ist they havnt said anything meaningful yet.


What is the point of meaningful truths if there is no engagement? Dont tell me that you expect to change someone´s mind without it.

[dancrilis]

Rich has said that True Resurrection doesn't exist here, since it would reduce the significance of such a death.


I don't believe that is accurate.


And more to the point, True Resurrection is a terrible, narrative-wrecking spell that should not exist, as it has no real purpose for players who die in battle (as they can almost always be returned via simple Resurrection) and only ever comes in to play to undo plot points. I prefer to simply treat it as "not available" to everyone, and I don't want to waste any panel time explaining why.

(Also, with regards to the Gating a Solar thing: The "fair trade" price a Solar would ask for resurrecting an evil dragon would simply be the mother dragon's own life—because that would be a Good act of self-sacrifice, and the Solar would approve of that. There's no reason to think the mother dragon would be willing to pay that price...and even if she was, she would insist on punishing V first, since her son was relatively weak.)

'Not available to everyone' is not the same as 'not available to anyone', and he effectively confirms that a Solar could do it - further Haley believes it exists (panel 7 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html)) and makes reference to it again in panel 5 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html).

[Vikenlugaid]

Yup. The only thing the Order is trying to force Serini to do is freakin' listen to them for a damn second. Unfortunately, Serini doesn't think they have anything useful to say (and frankly, she has little reason to suspect they were told stuff by literal gods), so she'll likely struggle to the bitter end. Let's hope she'll fail.
I think the order could try better to tell her things, even while fighting, I mean, Durkon and Minrah kept giving arguments to Redcloak while they were fighting, here the order is only saying "listen to us, we are important!!" Without saying anything, they could use all of those words saying something at least: "the gods have told us really important things!!", "If Xykon is not stopped they will destroy the world!!", "We need to turn the goblin to our side to beat the Snarl for good"... You know, things that Serini could actually react at.

[Metastachydium]

I think the order could try better to tell her things

Perhaps, but do take into consideration that by the time they realised they are dealing with Serini,
1. the two members of the Order that would have been the best suited to explain things were incapacitated and
2. they got Serini restrained so they thought they have more time to bring things up organically.
Once Serini broke loose, things started happening fast enough that I can't blame them for not shouting perfectly informative concise infodumps at her.

The Durkon/Minrah/Redcloak thing is not a perfect analogy either, since that was a bad plan they planned for. Here they were ambushed by someone they didn't know was alive.

(Also, you went through the trouble to dig up my post from all the way back to page 3? I'm honoured.)

[schmunzel]

That is the detail, most of what they know requires a more in depth talking to actually serve a purpose. Its like that time when Roy knew about Durkon´s exile being over but bringing it up with no context served no purpose. Spewing random information they know sounds like a poor solution. They know nothing about what she knows and how she thinks. That is the whole point in engaging in meaningful conversation. So far, she doesnt seem interested in hearing what they have to say.

What is the point of meaningful truths if there is no engagement? Dont tell me that you expect to change someone´s mind without it.

... To be fair there was an engagement. ...

Youre probably right though Im not inclined to listen to people shooting arrows at my behind either so I happily havnt blamed anyone for it, yet :)

sch

[Vikenlugaid]

Perhaps, but do take into consideration that by the time they realised they are dealing with Serini,
1. the two members of the Order that would have been the best suited to explain things were incapacitated and
2. they got Serini restrained so they thought they have more time to bring things up organically.
Once Serini broke loose, things started happening fast enough that I can't blame them for not shouting perfectly informative concise infodumps at her.

The Durkon/Minrah/Redcloak thing is not a perfect analogy either, since that was a bad plan they planned for. Here they were ambushed by someone they didn't know was alive.

(Also, you went through the trouble to dig up my post from all the way back to page 3? I'm honoured.)
Yeah, is not a fatal mistake, but still Haley shouting "listen to us!" in this strip strikes me as terribly repetitive.
Haley is smart and charismatic, and she should understand pretty well this "i don't trust anyone" mood, please...

[Hurkyl]

I'm not sure if it's possible in OotS-world for someone to be resurrected if their body is completely gone. Rich has said that True Resurrection doesn't exist here, since it would reduce the significance of such a death. And I don't think we've encountered any mention of the Wish spell (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm), which is the level of magic needed to recreate a destroyed body.
In #0634, Director Lee explains that V will not be allowed to duplicate any divine magic via Wish or Limited Wish.

[Ruck]

Can't speak for Daniel, but I do think there are things we learned.

For example. we learned that Serini's belief that the paladins/order can't beat Xykon arises from Xykon beating her and her friends, rather than any any sort of real assessment of the Order or Paladin's abilities.

And from the fact that Xykon killed arguably her two strongest teammates, could've killed her, and that even though she considers herself the weakest member of the Scribble, she still managed to subdue the paladins effortlessly and had the upper hand on the Order for a while.


Well, most of the defendants were saying she had some sort of actual plan and her reasoning was solid.

That’s not really the case.

Her reasoning for not wanting the Order and the Paladins around is certainly solid. She may have underestimated their capabilities, but "I'm not willing to risk the Gate being blown, and these groups of people have blown Gates before; therefore, I want them out of here" is perfectly valid.


I'm not confident about it, but the Oracle's phrasing not saying anything specific about dying does suggest that it may be a weird prophecy-fulfilling thing rather than a straightforward event. Story-wise, I'm am confident that it will be a heroic end, with Belkar knowingly sacrificing himself so others will survive.

The thing I keep coming back to is-- I buy this reasoning if someone had paid for a prophecy and asked the Oracle "When will Belkar draw his last breath?" The Oracle does have a history of answering in overly technical fashion ("In his throne room") or in a vague manner that isn't necessarily useful ("posthumously").

But nobody asked the Oracle that. He just keeps making cracks about how Belkar is going to die, using metaphorical language, then more or less explicitly tells Roy so. I don't see why he would do all that if Belkar isn't going to die-- the Oracle practically gets a kick out of the thought of Belkar dying.

[Hurkyl]

And from the fact that Xykon killed arguably her two strongest teammates, could've killed her, and that even though she considers herself the weakest member of the Scribble, she still managed to subdue the paladins effortlessly and had the upper hand on the Order for a while.
She might even know that a Sapphire Guard paladin soloed their entire party! Twice!


Her reasoning for not wanting the Order and the Paladins around is certainly solid. She may have underestimated their capabilities, but "I'm not willing to risk the Gate being blown, and these groups of people have blown Gates before; therefore, I want them out of here" is perfectly valid.
Right. My position on that has always been "I can tell her I'm not convinced, but I can't tell her she's wrong".

[Liquor Box]

The problem with this, as others have noted, is that it severely underestimates the amount of damage that Xykon can do if he wins. Like, lets say that the Gods aren't able to destroy the world for whatever reason, Xykon takes the Gate, destroys Redcloak's plan but gets full control over it all.

We're talking about an epic-level Lich having control over the Snarl, a creation that's so powerful that even the Gods are terrified of battling it.

Sure, maybe he'll be nothing more than a garden variety despot, it'd be nice to imagine that. But the upper bound of things that Xykon could do with that power involves me referencing the expansion to an Obsidian game. In Neverwinter Nights 2: Mask of the Betrayer, there's an evil path that's... honestly one of the most terrifying things a player character in a video game can become.

The expansion starts off with your character being afflicted with a curse that's destroying your body and soul, and can only be sated by either consuming the souls of spirits (or the living eventually), or by trying to maintain as much control over it as possible while not indulging. If you do indulge, the things you start devouring the souls of don't just become spirits or, you know, people, but also demi gods. And then the wrecked form of the old God of Death. And if you do everything right, at the end of the game, you can fully merge with that hunger inside of you, fully unlocking its power in the complete destruction of everything that has ever harmed you, or could ever harm you. Even Kelemvor, the (rather nicer) current god of death can only banish you from his realm, and when a divine host of gods try to hunt you down... not all of them come back, and their claims of victory ring hollow.

There's a great Lets Play of the game that goes down that path, if you'd like to know more. (https://lparchive.org/Neverwinter-Nights-2-Mask-of-the-Betrayer/)

Serini suffers from a serious lack of imagination when it comes to the amount of damage that Xykon could do. And if there's one thing that this comic has made clear about Xykon, it's this: Do not underestimate the big bad Lich, either his cunning or cruelty, and I see no compelling reason why he would ever stay content with ruling a single world.

There's so much in the question of whether Xykon ruling the world would be better or worse than the Snarl destroying it.

There's a huge amount of question of what might happen if Xykon rules. Would he be overthrown sooner or later, or at all. Would he be able to blackmail the gods like Redcloak intends, or even become a god like the Dark One did?

There's also all the value judgments of whether there are fates worse than death. Whichis such a loaded discussion that I think it better not to have.

[Wraithfighter]

Her reasoning for not wanting the Order and the Paladins around is certainly solid. She may have underestimated their capabilities, but "I'm not willing to risk the Gate being blown, and these groups of people have blown Gates before; therefore, I want them out of here" is perfectly valid.

Sure, if all you care about is preventing a gate from being destroyed and not the whole, you know, reason why the gate being destroyed would be bad. If Xykon were to use the power of the Gate to massacre everyone on the planet, turn them into a host of evil abominations and use the world as a launching point for an invasion of other planes of existence, using the Snarl itself to destroy entire Heavens worth of people, would Serini be going "Welp, I did my part to prevent the Gate from being destroyed, not my fault"?

That viewpoint you're describing is just... myopic. Serini's aware of the power of the Snarl, she's aware that an entire freakin' pantheon got devoured by it, she knows Xykon wants the Gate, she knows that Xykon is an Epic-level Lich Sorcerer, she has to factor in the sort of potentially insane things that Xykon could do with the gate into her planning.

(and no, this is not "therefore she should destroy the gate", just that a low chance of success is infinitely preferable to zero chance of success)


The thing I keep coming back to is-- I buy this reasoning if someone had paid for a prophecy and asked the Oracle "When will Belkar draw his last breath?" The Oracle does have a history of answering in overly technical fashion ("In his throne room") or in a vague manner that isn't necessarily useful ("posthumously").

But nobody asked the Oracle that. He just keeps making cracks about how Belkar is going to die, using metaphorical language, then more or less explicitly tells Roy so. I don't see why he would do all that if Belkar isn't going to die-- the Oracle practically gets a kick out of the thought of Belkar dying.

...mostly agreed. I do think that folks are too eager to try to rules lawyer the prophecy about Belkar because he's a fun character and has developed a lot and we don't want to see him die. 99.9% odds, right now, are that there's no shenanigans going on, Belkar's gonna for-real die soon.

...

That said.

The Oracle's a butthole. Sure, he's a butt because he knows that everyone he interacts with is going to hate him eventually, but that's usually because he's such a prick to them beforehand that they start hating him out of retaliation.

I'm just saying, I'm willing to reserve a 0.1% chance that the Oracle's screwing with us for the lols.

Yes. With us. Through the fourth wall. Because of course he would, that dink.

[Larsaan]

Haley is smart and charismatic, and she should understand pretty well this "i don't trust anyone" mood, please...

Serini hasn't actually said that she distrusts them, though. All she's done is call them stupid.

[Liquor Box]

They don't need her to stop to tell her things, they are talking a lot, they are just not telling her anything important, is not that they aren't having oportunities to that.

Why would they start blurting things like that out? They tried to communicate and she didn't answer. Now she's attacking them. They have no way of knowing this whole construct some members have made to justify Serini's actions. There's no reason for the Order to think that if only Serini had some key information she might change her mind.

I don't think it will be any of those sorts of key information that changes Serini's mind. I think it will be making her see that Xykon was able to defeat the Scribblers because they didn't stick together and he picked them off one by one. The Order is stronger because they are a group, and stronger still because they work with others. And Serini is perpetuating that mistake right now by resisting working with anyone else - as a group they could beat Xykon.

But that would involve her confronting the possibility her pushing to split up the Scribblers was actually a bad move, something that she might struggle to do.


Serini hasn't actually said that she distrusts them, though. All she's done is call them stupid.

Yes, this. The Order has no way to know why Serini has suddenly attacked them. They'd be entitled to simply kill her, and they certainly wouldn't ant to work with her anymore if it wasn't required for the story.


And from the fact that Xykon killed arguably her two strongest teammates, could've killed her, and that even though she considers herself the weakest member of the Scribble, she still managed to subdue the paladins effortlessly and had the upper hand on the Order for a while.

You asked what we learned - what we learned was that Serini's opinion that the order/paladins couldn't beat Xykon arose from her view he was unbeatable because he beat her and her friends, not because of anything specific about the Order.


Whether that opinion is a reasonable one to hold it is a different question. And the answer is that it clearly isn't. Serini set up an encounter designed to play on the Order's precise weaknesses, ambushed them by surprise with a host of allied monsters, had an unlikely degree of luck with the Order's save rolls and still managed to lose.

[pyrefiend]

Why would they start blurting things like that out? They tried to communicate and she didn't answer. Now she's attacking them. They have no way of knowing this whole construct some members have made to justify Serini's actions. There's no reason for the Order to think that if only Serini had some key information she might change her mind.

I agree with this. I'd also add that, given the strangeness of Serini's actions (from the Order's perspective) it's not clear that they should trust her with secrets about the Gates—at least until they figure out what her deal is. If I were Haley, I'd seriously suspect that Serini had been charmed by Xykon or something.

[Vikenlugaid]

Serini hasn't actually said that she distrusts them, though. All she's done is call them stupid.

"I decide who is on my side"


Why would they start blurting things like that out? They tried to communicate and she didn't answer. Now she's attacking them. They have no way of knowing this whole construct some members have made to justify Serini's actions. There's no reason for the Order to think that if only Serini had some key information she might change her mind.

I don't think it will be any of those sorts of key information that changes Serini's mind. I think it will be making her see that Xykon was able to defeat the Scribblers because they didn't stick together and he picked them off one by one. The Order is stronger because they are a group, and stronger still because they work with others. And Serini is perpetuating that mistake right now by resisting working with anyone else - as a group they could beat Xykon.


That's why I used the verb "try". I am not saying it will work, bit at least they could try.
And yes, they tried to communicate... That's my point, they only said her "listen to us!" They never told her anything, that's not really communication.

And you said another thing that Haley could have said "Xykon is winning because your team was broken" Haley doesn't even know if Serini knows about Xykon defeating the other Scribblers.

God, they didn't even tell her "we are not here to take the gate, we want to stop Xykon"... They totally suck.

Serini doesn't have any reason to stop fighting them.


I agree with this. I'd also add that, given the strangeness of Serini's actions (from the Order's perspective) it's not clear that they should trust her with secrets about the Gates—at least until they figure out what her deal is. If I were Haley, I'd seriously suspect that Serini had been charmed by Xykon or something.
If Haley thought that, then the more reason to tell her (and therfore, tell Xykon) that the gods will destroy the world if Xykon gets the gate. Xykon is a vicious bastard but he doesn't want the world destroyed, he would look for another way to rule it instead.

[Ruck]

Whether that opinion is a reasonable one to hold it is a different question. And the answer is that it clearly isn't.

Clearly isn't? I don't think that's clear at all. It might be wrong, but it's reasonable, considering Xykon dispatched the most powerful members of the Scribble, plus the Order's previous attempts to stop Xykon resulting in failure and destroyed Gates (as well as, in one case, the death of the party leader).

[Wraithfighter]

And you said another thing that Haley could have said "Xykon is winning because your team was broken" Haley doesn't even know if Serini knows about Xykon defeating the other Scribblers.

...huh.

Uh, question. How much does the Order know about Xykon's interactions with Lirian and her Gate, or him battling Dorukan?

Because they learned about Lirian from the Azurites, whose only knowledge was basically just "...uh, something happened there, maybe we should subcontract these jobs out to rangers or something next time".

And Dorukan, they didn't even know about him heading in there, and while "Dorukan lost the fight" can be inferred, for all the Order knows, there wasn't even a fight in the first place, Dorukan had a heart attack and Xykon moved in.

Just wondering if I missed anything on those fronts.

[Thermophille]

If Haley thought that, then the more reason to tell her (and therfore, tell Xykon) that the gods will destroy the world if Xykon gets the gate. Xykon is a vicious bastard but he doesn't want the world destroyed, he would look for another way to rule it instead.

:xykon: Welp, sounds like the last few decades of work have just been a massive waste of time. I'm off.

[Liquor Box]

That's why I used the verb "try". I am not saying it will work, bit at least they could try.
And yes, they tried to communicate... That's my point, they only said her "listen to us!" They never told her anything, that's not really communication.

And you said another thing that Haley could have said "Xykon is winning because your team was broken" Haley doesn't even know if Serini knows about Xykon defeating the other Scribblers.

God, they didn't even tell her "we are not here to take the gate, we want to stop Xykon"... They totally suck.

Serini doesn't have any reason to stop fighting them.

Why would the 'try'? They have no reason to think that she's attacking them because she thinks they don't have important knowledge.

They had no reason to say "Xykon is winning because your team was broken" because they had no way of knowing that Serini was attacking them because her and her friends got curb stomped. The paladins know, because Serini told them, which is why Lien made the point.

They have no reason to say "We don't want the gate, we want Xykon", because they have know way of knowing Serini thinks they might want to destroy the gate.

All they know about Serini is that she didn't answer when they tried to message her, and now she has attacked them. How many rounds have there been in this fight? How many since they figured out who she is? They've probably known she is alive for less than a minute. The idea that they should have guessed some pretty improbably reasoning from her, with no information at all, and then said exactly the right thing to defuse her, is a bit ridiculous.


Clearly isn't? I don't think that's clear at all. It might be wrong, but it's reasonable, considering Xykon dispatched the most powerful members of the Scribble, plus the Order's previous attempts to stop Xykon resulting in failure and destroyed Gates (as well as, in one case, the death of the party leader).

It's reasonable to say that Xykon would probably beat the Order. But I don't think it is reasonable to conclude that he is "unbeatable, period".

Serini doesn't appear to actually know anything about the Order's abilities. Her conclusion doesn't seem to arise from any assessment of them. Based on what we've seen, there's a good chance she doesn't even know that the Order has tangled with Xykon before, but it she did know that then she'd probably know they;ve beaten him once.

She does know that they are an entire party of 7 though, and that alone is a good reason to think they might be more powerful than Dorukon or Lirian (or her) individually.

I'd have no objection if Serini had said "having observed you and having seen what Xykon can do, I think he'd beat you nine times out of ten". That would be reasonable. But instead she's saying he's literally unbeatable, based only on the fact that he beat someone stronger than her. That is not reasonable.



Just wondering if I missed anything on those fronts.
I don't think you missed anything. While everyone has been careful to judge Serini's actions only on what she appears to know, it seems that same generosity is not being extended to the Order.

[pyrefiend]

If Haley thought that, then the more reason to tell her (and therfore, tell Xykon) that the gods will destroy the world if Xykon gets the gate. Xykon is a vicious bastard but he doesn't want the world destroyed, he would look for another way to rule it instead.

I just don't think there's been enough time for Haley to come up with this kind of calculated response. The Order expected (reasonably, I think) that Serini would be an ally. Then, about half a minute ago, Serini started attacking them without explanation. Given that, I think that maybe Haley's had time to quickly work through some salient possibilities (e.g. enchantment by Xykon) but I don't think she's had time for much more than that. She just knows that she's got to subdue Serini so she can figure out what is going on.

[DLcygnet]

Great callback!
5 stars, will laugh again.

Wait... is how Serini gets her comeuppance - by getting amnesia potion spilled on her? Then nobody will know where the gate is....

[Ruck]

It's reasonable to say that Xykon would probably beat the Order. But I don't think it is reasonable to conclude that he is "unbeatable, period".

Serini doesn't appear to actually know anything about the Order's abilities. Her conclusion doesn't seem to arise from any assessment of them. Based on what we've seen, there's a good chance she doesn't even know that the Order has tangled with Xykon before, but it she did know that then she'd probably know they;ve beaten him once.

She does know that they are an entire party of 7 though, and that alone is a good reason to think they might be more powerful than Dorukon or Lirian (or her) individually.

I'd have no objection if Serini had said "having observed you and having seen what Xykon can do, I think he'd beat you nine times out of ten". That would be reasonable. But instead she's saying he's literally unbeatable, based only on the fact that he beat someone stronger than her. That is not reasonable.

Ehh, I think we're just splitting hairs over matters of degree now. I suppose it depends if you think she means "literally unbeatable, by anyone, ever," which I don't think she believes, given that she still expects him to eventually be toppled (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html) even if he takes the Gate. "No one, anywhere, any time, has a chance to ever beat Xykon" wouldn't be reasonable. "This group of people here, you do not have a chance to beat Xykon," is reasonable, even if it's wrong.

(And while as a poker player, I appreciate quantifying the difference between "0% chance" and "10% chance," I think most people would still say "no chance" even if they meant "a slim chance." Especially in the heat of the moment here, where Serini is probably not doing EV calculations on the Order vs. Xykon-- she's just trying to convince Lien and O-Chul not to go up against Xykon because she believes that by far the most likely outcome is that they lose, and too often when they lose they jeopardize her Gate's defenses.)

[RatElemental]

In #0634, Director Lee explains that V will not be allowed to duplicate any divine magic via Wish or Limited Wish.

I'm not sure where you're going with that. That was for the duration of the soul splice, and recreating a destroyed body is not duplicating divine magic but rather a listed approved use of a wish spell.

[danielxcutter]

Ehh, I think we're just splitting hairs over matters of degree now. I suppose it depends if you think she means "literally unbeatable, by anyone, ever," which I don't think she believes, given that she still expects him to eventually be toppled (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html) even if he takes the Gate. "No one, anywhere, any time, has a chance to ever beat Xykon" wouldn't be reasonable. "This group of people here, you do not have a chance to beat Xykon," is reasonable, even if it's wrong.

(And while as a poker player, I appreciate quantifying the difference between "0% chance" and "10% chance," I think most people would still say "no chance" even if they meant "a slim chance." Especially in the heat of the moment here, where Serini is probably not doing EV calculations on the Order vs. Xykon-- she's just trying to convince Lien and O-Chul not to go up against Xykon because she believes that by far the most likely outcome is that they lose, and too often when they lose they jeopardize her Gate's defenses.)

I'm more inclined to put more weight on her statements now, when she's under too much pressure to construct elaborate justifications.

The best comparison I can come up with is Tarquin, though possibly there might be others - he was a smooth talker and provided a coherent argument when everything was going well for him, but during the last fight that facade broke down and we saw what really mattered, his core motivation so to speak. I think there was a relevant post about that from the Giant?

I won't say that her arguments are universally flawed or that she's completely talking out her ass, but I wouldn't really put much stock into her philosophy and logic. And honestly I prefer that. I mean seriously he butchered one of her old friends, went on to her and came close to doing the same, and then used her diary to move on to another of her old friends and then killed him too.

It's like when Roy "heroic to levels that most Paladins wish they were" Greenhilt almost crumbled in the pyramid when Belkar told him the news - Vaarsuvius was MIA, and Durkon - his best friend, second-strongest party member, and the entire lynchpin of his plan for defending Girard's Gate against the Vector Legion - had been turned into a vampire thrall. And Serini didn't have anyone or anything to put her back on track like Roy did.

[Gurgeh]

I'm not sure where you're going with that. That was for the duration of the soul splice, and recreating a destroyed body is not duplicating divine magic but rather a listed approved use of a wish spell.
Hurkyl was responding to Bunsen's question about whether or not Wish existed in the setting; the IFCC stipulations aren't the point, the fact that they called the spell out by name are.

[Liquor Box]

Ehh, I think we're just splitting hairs over matters of degree now. I suppose it depends if you think she means "literally unbeatable, by anyone, ever," which I don't think she believes, given that she still expects him to eventually be toppled (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html) even if he takes the Gate. "No one, anywhere, any time, has a chance to ever beat Xykon" wouldn't be reasonable. "This group of people here, you do not have a chance to beat Xykon," is reasonable, even if it's wrong.

(And while as a poker player, I appreciate quantifying the difference between "0% chance" and "10% chance," I think most people would still say "no chance" even if they meant "a slim chance." Especially in the heat of the moment here, where Serini is probably not doing EV calculations on the Order vs. Xykon-- she's just trying to convince Lien and O-Chul not to go up against Xykon because she believes that by far the most likely outcome is that they lose, and too often when they lose they jeopardize her Gate's defenses.)

So you think that "Xykon is unbeatable, period!" has an element of hyperbole and she just meant to say that she thought the chance of him being beaten by the paladins/Order is minimal? Perhaps, and it's certainly much more reasonable when read that way.

However, I still don't think she's well placed to make a judgment of the Order' chance against Xykon based only on Xykon's wins alone, and without knowing much about the Order's ability.

[Ruck]

I won't say that her arguments are universally flawed or that she's completely talking out her ass, but I wouldn't really put much stock into her philosophy and logic. And honestly I prefer that. I mean seriously he butchered one of her old friends, went on to her and came close to doing the same, and then used her diary to move on to another of her old friends and then killed him too.

The logic is that she doesn't want the Gate blown, and she thinks the Order and the paladins will blow the Gate before they let Xykon take it. That's still sound. The fact that part of that calculus comes from direct experience with Xykon (and knowing what he did to maybe the two most powerful people she knows) doesn't make it irrational.


However, I still don't think she's well placed to make a judgment of the Order' chance against Xykon based only on Xykon's wins alone, and without knowing much about the Order's ability.

She might not be. She certainly doesn't know as much as us, the reader, know about the growth of the Order. But the thing is, she's the guardian of this Gate, and they're here now, so she has to make the best decision she can with the information she does have. And we've already seen that she knows about the blown Gates, so we can verify that that information goes into her decisions. She almost certainly doesn't know how powerful the Order have become, and she definitely doesn't know that the gods will blow the world anyway if Xykon does take the Gate.

[Liquor Box]

She might not be. She certainly doesn't know as much as us, the reader, know about the growth of the Order. But the thing is, she's the guardian of this Gate, and they're here now, so she has to make the best decision she can with the information she does have. And we've already seen that she knows about the blown Gates, so we can verify that that information goes into her decisions. She almost certainly doesn't know how powerful the Order have become, and she definitely doesn't know that the gods will blow the world anyway if Xykon does take the Gate.

We've seen that she knows about one blown gate, and nothing indicates that she knows the Order was there. I had assumed (like most others) that she probably knew something about the others, but I'm not so sure about that anymore.

But whether she knows about the blown gates or not, she doesn't seem to know anything about the Order in particular. Which means she had a poor basis for the assumption that they couldn't beat Xykon on which her decision to attack them was based.

[Vikenlugaid]

Why would the 'try'? They have no reason to think that she's attacking them because she thinks they don't have important knowledge.

They had no reason to say "Xykon is winning because your team was broken" because they had no way of knowing that Serini was attacking them because her and her friends got curb stomped. The paladins know, because Serini told them, which is why Lien made the point.

They have no reason to say "We don't want the gate, we want Xykon", because they have know way of knowing Serini thinks they might want to destroy the gate.

All they know about Serini is that she didn't answer when they tried to message her, and now she has attacked them. How many rounds have there been in this fight? How many since they figured out who she is? They've probably known she is alive for less than a minute. The idea that they should have guessed some pretty improbably reasoning from her, with no information at all, and then said exactly the right thing to defuse her, is a bit ridiculous.



It's reasonable to say that Xykon would probably beat the Order. But I don't think it is reasonable to conclude that he is "unbeatable, period".

Serini doesn't appear to actually know anything about the Order's abilities. Her conclusion doesn't seem to arise from any assessment of them. Based on what we've seen, there's a good chance she doesn't even know that the Order has tangled with Xykon before, but it she did know that then she'd probably know they;ve beaten him once.

She does know that they are an entire party of 7 though, and that alone is a good reason to think they might be more powerful than Dorukon or Lirian (or her) individually.

I'd have no objection if Serini had said "having observed you and having seen what Xykon can do, I think he'd beat you nine times out of ten". That would be reasonable. But instead she's saying he's literally unbeatable, based only on the fact that he beat someone stronger than her. That is not reasonable.


I don't think you missed anything. While everyone has been careful to judge Serini's actions only on what she appears to know, it seems that same generosity is not being extended to the Order.

So they know Serini doesn't answer when they said "listen tu us!" and now when they got the oportunity to tell her something they just say again "listen to us!"? Do you really think that's their best move? If that didn't work in the past, how will that work in the middle of a fight?
They should try something else to say, or just don't talk at all, but to say always the same thing that they know isn't working...

And again, they are smart, they have figured out the "secret door" they could figure out something about her motivations to attack them, I mean, they KNOW that they have destroyed 2 gates, now a gate defender is attacking them and impliying that she doesn't trust them... I think a pretty obvious conclusion for them should be that she is attacking them cause she thinks they are a danger flr the gate, which is exactly the main reason.

[Liquor Box]

So they know Serini doesn't answer when they said "listen tu us!" and now when they got the oportunity to tell her something they just say again "listen to us!"? Do you really think that's their best move? If that didn't work in the past, how will that work in the middle of a fight?
They should try something else to say, or just don't talk at all, but to say always the same thing that they know isn't working...

There were two panels (note panels, not strips) between them figuring out who Serini was and that she'd got their messages, and her escaping.

In that time, V told her off for ad hominem attacks, and Hayley said there was no need to keep fighting. None of those were the same thing as their sendings. What do you think they should have said?


And again, they are smart, they have figured out the "secret door" they could figure out something about her motivations to attack them, I mean, they KNOW that they have destroyed 2 gates, now a gate defender is attacking them and impliying that she doesn't trust them... I think a pretty obvious conclusion for them should be that she is attacking them cause she thinks they are a danger flr the gate, which is exactly the main reason.
If they had a long time, they probably couldn't figure out her motivations, because her motivations don't make sense even for people who know all that we know. But they had two panels - when do you think they should have figured our her motivations?

The paladins have figured out her motivation (terror of Xykon because of what he did to her and her firends) but only because Serini basically told them.

[Vikenlugaid]

There were two panels (note panels, not strips) between them figuring out who Serini was and that she'd got their messages, and her escaping.

In that time, V told her off for ad hominem attacks, and Hayley said there was no need to keep fighting. None of those were the same thing as their sendings. What do you think they should have said?


If they had a long time, they probably couldn't figure out her motivations, because her motivations don't make sense even for people who know all that we know. But they had two panels - when do you think they should have figured our her motivations?

The paladins have figured out her motivation (terror of Xykon because of what he did to her and her firends) but only because Serini basically told them.
They figured out the secret door in one panel.
And they know for sure she won't stop if they just tell her "listen to us'", why did Haley say exactly that in the last strip? Again?
And her motivations do have sense, a lot.

[Ruck]

We've seen that she knows about one blown gate, and nothing indicates that she knows the Order was there. I had assumed (like most others) that she probably knew something about the others, but I'm not so sure about that anymore.

I think there are a lot of context clues that suggests she knows at least something about the other Gates.


She knows Xykon killed both Lirian and Dorukan, so she knows specifically that Xykon has been in pursuit of the Gates, and possibly more than that, depending on the level of detail she knows.
She knows her Gate is the last Gate, so she knows the others blew up (she probably has a monitoring device like Girard did). Given the details she knew about Soon's Gate, I suspect she has more detailed knowledge than she's let on about the others, although she still may not know the exact power level of the Order (as you mentioned, but I'll get to that in a bit).
We don't know everything the Order has sent to her, but IIRC they mentioned they are in pursuit of Xykon to stop him from getting her Gate. At the minimum, we know Girard's Gate blew up and then Serini soon after started receiving Sendings from The Order of the Stick saying they are in pursuit of Xykon, whom she already knows is after the Gates. (They might have even mentioned they did it.)
As per points 1 and 2, she may well know the details of the other Gates like she did of Soon's Gate. As per point 3, even if she doesn't know the details like she did of Soon's Gate, it would be reasonable for her to conclude, from the timeline and information she does have, that the Order had some involvement with, at the least, Girard's Gate blowing up.



But whether she knows about the blown gates or not, she doesn't seem to know anything about the Order in particular. Which means she had a poor basis for the assumption that they couldn't beat Xykon on which her decision to attack them was based.

While she doesn't know the Order's power level, Girard's Gate blowing up wasn't that long ago in comic time. If she concluded, per above, they blew it to keep it from getting in his hands, then it's easy to extrapolate that they didn't think they could take him, and not much time has passed, so why can they take him now?

(Of course, at the time they did it, they only had three party members at full strength, they had to prevent two groups of villains from getting control of the Gate, they've gotten stronger since then, and they didn't have Minrah, Lien, and O-Chul with them, either. But if you concede Serini doesn't know their exact power level, then it's unlikely she knew the Order's tactical reasons for blowing Girard's Gate to that degree.)

[Liquor Box]

They figured out the secret door in one panel.
And they know for sure she won't stop if they just tell her "listen to us'", why did Haley say exactly that in the last strip? Again?
And her motivations do have sense, a lot.

Well, seven panels, but that's not really the point. Did you think of anything they might have said instead?

Her being terrified of Xykon makes sense if you know about his beatdown of her (which the order doesn't). But it does not make sense for her to transfer that terror to the Order.


I think there are a lot of context clues that suggests she knows at least something about the other Gates.


She knows Xykon killed both Lirian and Dorukan, so she knows specifically that Xykon has been in pursuit of the Gates, and possibly more than that, depending on the level of detail she knows.
She knows her Gate is the last Gate, so she knows the others blew up (she probably has a monitoring device like Girard did). Given the details she knew about Soon's Gate, I suspect she has more detailed knowledge than she's let on about the others, although she still may not know the exact power level of the Order (as you mentioned, but I'll get to that in a bit).
We don't know everything the Order has sent to her, but IIRC they mentioned they are in pursuit of Xykon to stop him from getting her Gate. At the minimum, we know Girard's Gate blew up and then Serini soon after started receiving Sendings from The Order of the Stick saying they are in pursuit of Xykon, whom she already knows is after the Gates. (They might have even mentioned they did it.)
As per points 1 and 2, she may well know the details of the other Gates like she did of Soon's Gate. As per point 3, even if she doesn't know the details like she did of Soon's Gate, it would be reasonable for her to conclude, from the timeline and information she does have, that the Order had some involvement with, at the least, Girard's Gate blowing up.


I agree with the first three points, and the fourth is a maybe. But non of that suggests the Order can't defeat Xykon.

Indeed, if she knows as much context about all he gates as she seemed to about Soon's, then her estimation of the Order's would be greater, because she'd know they beat Xykon.


While she doesn't know the Order's power level, Girard's Gate blowing up wasn't that long ago in comic time. If she concluded, per above, they blew it to keep it from getting in his hands, then it's easy to extrapolate that they didn't think they could take him, and not much time has passed, so why can they take him now?

If we assume that she knew Xykon and the Order were at Girard's Gate (I doubt she knew Xykon was there) that would still be huge leap that it blew up because they decided they couldn't take him - especially if she knew that Dorukon's gate was destroyed after they defeated Xykon. For all she would know, Xykon might have destroyed the gate after the Order denied it to him, or he destroyed it by accident (like Lirian's). A third party (perhaps one Girard's minions) might have destroyed the gate (as she seems to know happened with Soon's gate.

And I know you don't like this sort of logic. But if her reason for thinking the Order couldn't take Xykon was because he'd consistently defeated them the past, that is what she would have said in panel five. Instead, she said that he killed her friends.

[Vikenlugaid]

The thing is, who thinks for real that the order now have even one chance of beating team evil in a fight?

Xykon killed Lirian and Dorukan in 1v1 combat, the order is a team but Xykon has a team too. At Girard's gate Redcloak kept 4/6 of the order very busy with just one spell, Oona and Greyview should be pretty powerfull, and MITD too (only Ochul knows that he is "good").

For me it's obvious that they won't win him in a fight, Xykon will be destroyed by other means.

[Liquor Box]

The thing is, who thinks for real that the order now have even one chance of beating team evil in a fight?

Xykon killed Lirian and Dorukan in 1v1 combat, the order is a team but Xykon has a team too. At Girard's gate Redcloak kept 4/6 of the order very busy with just one spell, Oona and Greyview should be pretty powerfull, and MITD too (only Ochul knows that he is "good").

For me it's obvious that they won't win him in a fight, Xykon will be destroyed by other means.

I think they have a chance based on what we've seen. The simplest answer is that they've beaten him and his team before.

As for Girard's gate, I don't think that means much. Redcloak's spell kept them busy, but didn't come close to beating them. Even though they were wounded at the start, the were still strong enough after beating that monster (and those other two demons) to beat Nale and Tarquin and his army.

Either way since them they've gained more allies (now up to 9), gained levels, and gained magic items.

so yes, putting the narrative aside, I think they'd be a chance of beating Xykon's team. I'd think Xykon would probably win, but I think the Order would have a chance.

Did you manage to think of anything Hayley should have said to Serini? You've had a whole lot more time than Hayley did.

[Larsaan]

Ehh, I think we're just splitting hairs over matters of degree now. I suppose it depends if you think she means "literally unbeatable, by anyone, ever," which I don't think she believes, given that she still expects him to eventually be toppled (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1229.html) even if he takes the Gate. "No one, anywhere, any time, has a chance to ever beat Xykon" wouldn't be reasonable. "This group of people here, you do not have a chance to beat Xykon," is reasonable, even if it's wrong.

I think it's becoming increasingly clear that Serini's line of thinking is not "Xykon winning wouldn't be so bad, therefore I won't fight him.", but "I'm desperately afraid of ever facing Xykon again, therefore I need to come up with reasons why him winning won't be so bad.". And when a person is that emotionally invested in arriving at a specific conclusion, they'll accept a lot of arguments that they'd ordinarily be much more critical of. I think, if you pressed her on it, Serini would admit that she doesn't really believe that someone will topple Xykon - that's why she came up with the backup excuse that life might possibly get better for some of the monster races.

It is a very human (for lack of a better word) thing to do, though, and I actually find myself a lot less annoyed with her now than I was two pages ago. Although at this point I think the best thing for her would be if she got tagged with one of her own tranquilizer darts, and she woke up in some nice, competent therapist's office. On a comfortable couch, with an infinite pot of tea next to her. And a beholder plushie to hug.

[Ruck]

I agree with the first three points, and the fourth is a maybe. But non of that suggests the Order can't defeat Xykon.

Indeed, if she knows as much context about all he gates as she seemed to about Soon's, then her estimation of the Order's would be greater, because she'd know they beat Xykon.

As I said, it's their own choice to destroy Girard's Gate rather than fighting Xykon that suggests it.

And if she knows about what happened at Dorukan's Gate, that works both ways. It means she also knows the Order destroyed one Gate and then... a year later or so? I forget the timeline exactly... destroyed another Gate, which brings us back to the timeline: "If they haven't gotten good enough in the year between Dorukan's Gate and Girard's Gate to come up with a Xykon strategy besides 'blow up the Gate,' how could they have gotten that good in two weeks?"


If we assume that she knew Xykon and the Order were at Girard's Gate (I doubt she knew Xykon was there) that would still be huge leap that it blew up because they decided they couldn't take him - especially if she knew that Dorukon's gate was destroyed after they defeated Xykon. For all she would know, Xykon might have destroyed the gate after the Order denied it to him, or he destroyed it by accident (like Lirian's). A third party (perhaps one Girard's minions) might have destroyed the gate (as she seems to know happened with Soon's gate.

I don't think it's a huge leap. It is possible to assume other things, yes. But this gets back to a point that's been at the genesis of the Serini debate: The people opposing Xykon have a history of destroying Gates, and Serini seems to know that wherever they go, destroyed Gates follow, and maybe she knows they're the ones doing it. Given how high she considers the stakes of her Gate, she would not want to take the chance with them doing it again.

And that's in the case she doesn't actually know what happened.


And I know you don't like this sort of logic. But if her reason for thinking the Order couldn't take Xykon was because he'd consistently defeated them the past, that is what she would have said in panel five. Instead, she said that he killed her friends.

I dunno. I see where you're coming from, but the reason I don't like that line of logic is that it presumes too much about characters acting the way we want them to act, or think they should act, or would act ourselves. But probably more relevant, she already had the gate-blowing conversation with Lien and O-Chul, and it would be redundant (probably both from her point of view and from Rich's point of view in wanting to shed further light on Serini's thinking).

[danielxcutter]

I think it's becoming increasingly clear that Serini's line of thinking is not "Xykon winning wouldn't be so bad, therefore I won't fight him.", but "I'm desperately afraid of ever facing Xykon again, therefore I need to come up with reasons why him winning won't be so bad.". And when a person is that emotionally invested in arriving at a specific conclusion, they'll accept a lot of arguments that they'd ordinarily be much more critical of. I think, if you pressed her on it, Serini would admit that she doesn't really believe that someone will topple Xykon - that's why she came up with the backup excuse that life might possibly get better for some of the monster races.

I mean she literally said “Xykon is unbeatable!” right now when she said Xykon would eventually be toppled earlier, so yeah that’s pretty much what’s going on already.


It is a very human (for lack of a better word) thing to do, though, and I actually find myself a lot less annoyed with her now than I was two pages ago. Although at this point I think the best thing for her would be if she got tagged with one of her own tranquilizer darts, and she woke up in some nice, competent therapist's office. On a comfortable couch, with an infinite pot of tea next to her. And a beholder plushie to hug.

Yes to everything in this post.

Does the beholder plushie squeak?

[Larsaan]

Does the beholder plushie squeak?

Yes. And if you pinch the eye stalks, they light up and make tiny pew pew sounds.

[Vikenlugaid]

I think they have a chance based on what we've seen. The simplest answer is that they've beaten him and his team before.

As for Girard's gate, I don't think that means much. Redcloak's spell kept them busy, but didn't come close to beating them. Even though they were wounded at the start, the were still strong enough after beating that monster (and those other two demons) to beat Nale and Tarquin and his army.

Either way since them they've gained more allies (now up to 9), gained levels, and gained magic items.

so yes, putting the narrative aside, I think they'd be a chance of beating Xykon's team. I'd think Xykon would probably win, but I think the Order would have a chance.

Did you manage to think of anything Hayley should have said to Serini? You've had a whole lot more time than Hayley did.

Redcloak is stronger now too, and that was only one spell. I mean, he can cast many more spells.
The point is he has lvl 9 spells so is very dangerous (he almost deleted Durkon in 1 round). We don't know how powerfull Oona is, but i guess is at least the average of the Order, same for Greyview.
If Xykon alone can delete half of the team really easy...
And the time when they beated him is not really "canon", I mean, Xykon only casted magic misile there XD


I have already said a ot of things Haley could tell to Serini instead of repeat "listen to us!!". And I didn't have more time than her to think it, they were sending Serini long ago, what were they going to tell her if she answered? They didn't have anything prepared? Were they going to just improvise? I don't think so. They should have a lot of things prepared to be told, specially when they destroyed gates before and they obviously need some argument well prepared to make a gate defender trust them. If that's not the case, then they totally suck. They can be that dumb to think a gate defender would trust them without any doubt.

[lcavalheiro]

You know, it strikes me we've been underestimating the potential effectiveness of "Ugh, we've cleared every entrance and none of them led to the gate. I can't believe that cheeky little halfling rogue pulled off that bluff."

And indeed, Girard pulled one like that with lead foil inside the pillar in his pyramid... and it would worked if Roy didn't have skills on Knowledge (Engineering). So, why wouldn't Serini pull anything similar to that?

EDIT: also, Serini is pulling a mix of other Order of Scribble members vision about perfect defense. She used a lot of powerful magic here to create the dungeons, as Dorukan would. She used the nature as a defense element – since the rocks prevent teleport –, as Lirian would. She found a lot of monsters to do the dirty job, as Kraagor would. Since a search is an activity which benefits from an orderly mindset, she screwed lawful ones, like Sapphire Guard, with her plans. Why wouldn't her pulling some Girard's tricks here? She is a rogue, a pragmatic class that has no qualms about using every trick they know. So yes, I really believe that entire dungeon thing is nothing but a big bluff.

[danielxcutter]

Girard's double-bluff was never the only line of defense, only the last. And stalling the intruders for any amount of time would let the Draketooths set up more nasty traps and ambushes.

[lcavalheiro]

Girard's double-bluff was never the only line of defense, only the last. And stalling the intruders for any amount of time would let the Draketooths set up more nasty traps and ambushes.

But would look after your house's keys in a cupboard if someone explicitly told you said keys were in your garage? Serini's diaries said with all letters she has encased the gate inside dungeon. Why Team Evil would look for it in other places?

[danielxcutter]

There are literally no reasons for Serini to have done that narratively besides "Girard did it something like that" and "it sounds cool", and if you ask me neither sound even remotely compelling. This isn't 8-Bit Theater.

[lcavalheiro]

And before anyone asks why I'm pulling Kraagor's gate being hidden on Kraagor's statue from a tophat, with rabbits and all magic and that, I say: do you remember when we got a look at Serini's diary and we see her drawings of Order of Scribble, she put an arrow pointing to Kraagor?

[lcavalheiro]

There are literally no reasons for Serini to have done that narratively besides "Girard did it something like that" and "it sounds cool", and if you ask me neither sound even remotely compelling. This isn't 8-Bit Theater.

Narratively, she has a good reason. What is strength? It is not being weak. That was Kraagor's belief. So, how could her plan not being weak? Being make using all strong elements from everyone else plans. In theory, if a plan is made of only strong elements, said plan would be a strong plan. And about double-bluff... it was hinted that Girard and Serini have some conversation along years past the gate thing. That, and the fact Girard was a master trickster and bluffer would inspire her to think the Girard's biggest strength was his ability to bluff.

[danielxcutter]

Literally every member of the Scribblers has an arrow pointing to them (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) here, so yes I think you're grasping at straws.

[lcavalheiro]

Literally every member of the Scribblers has an arrow pointing to them (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html) here, so yes I think you're grasping at straws.

Indeed you're right at this. I had a bad memory of this drawing which leads me to remember only Kraagor had an arrow pointing to him.

[Metastachydium]

Redcloak is stronger now too, and that was only one spell. I mean, he can cast many more spells.
The point is he has lvl 9 spells so is very dangerous (he almost deleted Durkon in 1 round). We don't know how powerfull Oona is, but i guess is at least the average of the Order, same for Greyview.
If Xykon alone can delete half of the team really easy...

Good planning and a bit of lucky improvisation can go a long way. Team Evil ultimately failed to delete the two clerics who are also the lowest level members of the party. I'm not saying I wouldn't bet on Xykon from an in-universe perspective, but we know he's beatable(, period) and the Order+the Guard+Serini's crew+a defecting Monster would be a massive action economy disadvantage to work against at the very least.


And the time when they beated him is not really "canon", I mean, Xykon only casted magic misile there XD

Right? I prefer to treat the entire firts book and much everything in it as early-installment weirdness.


And before anyone asks why I'm pulling Kraagor's gate being hidden on Kraagor's statue from a tophat, with rabbits and all magic and that, I say: do you remember when we got a look at Serini's diary and we see her drawings of Order of Scribble, she put an arrow pointing to Kraagor?

Um… There's an arrow for literally everyone (and, in fact, two for Girard). Is Kraagor's Gate between Girard's buttcheeks too?

Edit: beaten to the punch with that.

[danielxcutter]

Right? I prefer to treat the entire firts book and much everything in it as early-installment weirdness..

I mean, Xykon was obviously toying with them and he didn't have FoM. Since Roy is apparently about as strong as a frost giant(possibly even with class levels!) with only a Belt of Giant Strength, the Bull's Strength that'd been cast on him before the fight would have put his Strength score in the mid-20s. Since grappling involves BAB, I don't think there even needed to be any "fudging" of the rolls for that.

[Metastachydium]

I mean, Xykon was obviously toying with them and he didn't have FoM. Since Roy is apparently about as strong as a frost giant(possibly even with class levels!) with only a Belt of Giant Strength, the Bull's Strength that'd been cast on him before the fight would have put his Strength score in the mid-20s. Since grappling involves BAB, I don't think there even needed to be any "fudging" of the rolls for that.

I guess. That still felt weird. Redcloak (who didn't even cast a spell during the fight if I remember correctly) and the (porn watching, when can I eat the heroes early-installment) Monster just slinking off despite the Order not being in any shape to deal with them (V was paralyzed, Roy weaponless, Haley and Elan were roughed up by the Symbol of Pain…) on the other hand doesn't make a lick of sense.

[bunsen_h]

Does the beholder plushie squeak?

It does not appear so. (https://www.kidrobot.com/collections/dungeons-dragons/products/dungeons-dragons-beholder-phunny-plush?variant=39397994856545)

[Metastachydium]

It does not appear so. (https://www.kidrobot.com/collections/dungeons-dragons/products/dungeons-dragons-beholder-phunny-plush?variant=39397994856545)

(Damn it. Now I want their owlbear. And their griffon. (But not their Demogorgon. I'm not sure what to make of that one.))

[RickDaily12]

And before anyone asks why I'm pulling Kraagor's gate being hidden on Kraagor's statue from a tophat, with rabbits and all magic and that, I say: do you remember when we got a look at Serini's diary and we see her drawings of Order of Scribble, she put an arrow pointing to Kraagor?

To beat this dead horse further, The statue has moved. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1211.html) If that was where the rift was, it would have been instantly exposed in the next panel, thus ruining the entire subsequent set of trickeries from the rest of the tomb- by a mere single 6th level spell.

It would be the most obvious and pathetic attempt at a Gate defense we've ever seen to date.

There is a reason Redcloak has to research his own Arcane/Divine hybrid ritual regarding the rifts, and that's because it's the only spells we know of that either seal them, or move them elsewhere.

[Metastachydium]

There is a reason Redcloak has to research his own Arcane/Divine hybrid ritual regarding the rifts

(Except he didn't have to research it.)

[pendell]

(Except he didn't have to research it.)

He didn't have to research the divine half of the ritual, no, that would be imparted by the dark one. Are we so sure he or someone like him didn't need to research the arcane half of the ritual?

Also, when did the MITD watch porn? I'm wondering if that would prove useful for the MITD speculation thread; it might be an indication that the MITD, whatever it is, is a member of a species the reproduces sexually.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Kornaki]

Also, when did the MITD watch porn? I'm wondering if that would prove useful for the MITD speculation thread; it might be an indication that the MITD, whatever it is, is a member of a species the reproduces sexually.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

He's talking about when Durkon and Hylgia slept together, and MitD watched it on a crystal ball.

[Metastachydium]

He didn't have to research the divine half of the ritual, no, that would be imparted by the dark one. Are we so sure he or someone like him didn't need to research the arcane half of the ritual?


On page no. 45 he says "The knowledge of how to warp the Gates is inherent to the Crimson Mantle. I learned it the first time I ever donned the cloak." s, though. Never noticed that before.]
He's not talking about the divine half, but rather about the Ritual.

[Sapphire Guard]

Roy beat Xykon because there was a convenient vortex nearby to throw him into. Is there much reason to believe they can do better this time? Absent narrative reasons?

What does Serini know? If she has no knowledge, then 'when the Order show up, gates explode' is damning enough. If she has full knowledge, then that's arguably even more damning, because the Order has significantly contributed to undermining Dorukan and Girard's gate defences, thanks to Elan and V, and not five minutes ago they narrowly avoided tipping off Xykon to how her shell game worked.

Xykon is not unbeatable, but the witnesses to his defeats are out of the picture. Lirian beat him, Dorukan's 'only good may pass' ward beat him, Soon beat him, and Serini's own defences are currently at least thwarting him.

The question is less 'why is Serini not listening' and more 'why should she?' The onus is on the order to prove their intentions and capabilities, given the extent of their previous failures.

[Riftwolf]

Interesting art point: the fumes from the cauldron are in most of the frames of this comic. I'm expecting something interesting to happen with it now.

[Hurkyl]

Lirian beat him, Dorukan's 'only good may pass' ward beat him, Soon beat him, and Serini's own defences are currently at least thwarting him.
Dorukan ward's is somewhat more of a stretch than the others. Xykon had already worked out how to successfully bypass it, and ultimately it was mostly his own theatrics that found him blown up before he could actually carry it out.