Can Wyrm Wizard learn Domain spells?

[Gruftzwerg]

Wyrm Wizard can learn spells from other "classes spell-list". Even divine spells.
Now the question is, are Domain spells on the cleric class list or not?
The spell in question is Anyspell which is sole available as Domain spell.

I would say no, but I can't find anything that could confirm or deny this...
Can anyone help me to solve this riddle pls?

[Fero]

RAW the spell has to appear on some classes spell list. Domain unique spells do not appear on a class spell list and are therefore, technically, outside the scope of the "the spell research" ability. That said, if I were dming, I would allow domain exclusive spells as the intent appears to be to allow any spell and allowing any spell is balanced given the high cost of lost casting levels.

Note- if your DM does not allow you to use Wyrm Wizard for domain unique spells, you can probably back door into the same result by taking a PRC that gives you an actual domain ( Divine Oracle for example). Then, use Wyrm Wizard to learn the CC spell Substitute Domain. That should let you learn and use domain specific spells (I think).

All of that said, Anyspell and Anyspell, Greater are worded to require use of your domain spell slot. Therefore, even if you had the spell, you couldnt use it given the lack of domain slots. Again, if I were dming, I would probably allow a Wyrm Wizard to learn and use Anyspell but would put some limits on use to prevent it from getting out of hand.

[Gruftzwerg]

This is for TO build, so no DM available. I guess I will use a Domain Sorcerer (ACF) as base, but I would like to avoid the spell domain (anyspell) and rather pick another domain. I would be nice if I could get anyspell with wyrm wizard. But I guess I'm out of luck here.

[Zarvistic]

How about the divine sorcery feat from dragon 343? Costs a feat but you save levels not going into the prestige class. It's a really good feat either way tho.

[Thurbane]

Divine Crusader to the rescue:


Spells per Day: A divine crusader casts divine spells. She may only prepare and cast spells from her chosen domain (see above). Effectively, a divine crusader has a class spell list of only nine spells (one per spell level).

[Cruiser1]

use Wyrm Wizard to learn the CC spell Substitute Domain. That should let you learn and use domain specific spells (I think).
This works, but with limitations. The spell Substitute Domain (CC) allows you to "swap one of your current domains for another that your deity offers". That means you must worship a deity that offers the domain you want. Therefore, even with Substitute Domain you can't access domains that aren't offered by any deity in your campaign world, and that "Clerics of a cause" can't gain any benefit from the Substitute Domain spell at all.

[Saintheart]

Wyrm Wizard can learn spells from other "classes spell-list". Even divine spells.
Now the question is, are Domain spells on the cleric class list or not?
The spell in question is Anyspell which is sole available as Domain spell.

Ah, but it's not.

The Initiate of Mystra feat, from PGtF, specifically adds Anyspell to "your cleric spell list". Ergo, the Wyrm Wizard can learn it from a cleric with the Initiate of Mystra feat. The feat flat-out underlines that Anyspell under this feat can be cast as a regular cleric spell, not as a domain spell.

[Gruftzwerg]

Ah, but it's not.

The Initiate of Mystra feat, from PGtF, specifically adds Anyspell to "your cleric spell list". Ergo, the Wyrm Wizard can learn it from a cleric with the Initiate of Mystra feat. The feat flat-out underlines that Anyspell under this feat can be cast as a regular cleric spell, not as a domain spell.

Almost...
The problem here is as always... the Primary Source Rule..

Initiate of Mystra (feat) has no permission to create rules on a general/global level for the "cleric spell list". It creates a specific situation (by having the feat) and thus a specific exception to function.

Sadly this does not help my Wyrm Wizard build. Since I can't access specific exceptions with my ability. The ability given works under general rules (and the exceptions my build/character can provide) and can't access specific exceptions that others have. If the ability would have been keyed to "learn from somebody else" it would work. But sadly that is not the chase here.

PS: The Primary Source Rule is not always on my side.. For each time it backs me visibly up in the forum, it kills dozens of my build concepts in the background... :smallfrown:

[schreier]

What about the Divine Crusader, as mentioned above? That class spell list just consists of its domains.

[Gruftzwerg]

What about the Divine Crusader, as mentioned above? That class spell list just consists of its domains.

I'm not looking for other options. The build in question is mostly set and just needs some topping^^
It's going to be a Dvati Domain Sorcerer.
I still need to decide on the domain and atm I started to lean more towards luck domain for miracle. But still tanks to everybody for your time <3

[ixrisor]

As in, the divine crusader’s spell list consists of a domain, which means that domain spells are on the divine crusader’s spell list and you can choose them for wyrm wizard

[Gruftzwerg]

As in, the divine crusader’s spell list consists of a domain, which means that domain spells are on the divine crusader’s spell list and you can choose them for wyrm wizard

Wow, thanks. That's really good to know. Maybe I will the build again now..^^

Anyway, good to keep in mind for future rule debates. Thx again for the nice finding.

[Thurbane]

Wait, the third person to mention Divine Crusader is the one that gets the thanks? :smalltongue:

[Tzardok]

Wait, the third person to mention Divine Crusader is the one that gets the thanks? :smalltongue:

The one who explained why it's usefull in a way the OP understands gets the thanks. :smalltongue:

[Darg]

To be fair, the word "effectively" doesn't imply that the domain spells are actually part of the divine crusaders spell list.

[Cruiser1]

As in, the divine crusader’s spell list consists of a domain, which means that domain spells are on the divine crusader’s spell list and you can choose them for wyrm wizard
That's one way of looking at it. :smallwink: Another is that the Divine Crusader has no spell list. Instead, choices that a particular Divine Crusader makes during character creation will add spells from a particular domain to that particular Divine Crusader's personal spell list. However that doesn't change the fact that no spells in Spell Compendium or anywhere else are inherently associated with Divine Crusader, or are listed as "Divine Crusader 1" or "Divine Crusader 9".


The problem here is as always... the Primary Source Rule. Initiate of Mystra (feat) has no permission to create rules on a general/global level for the "cleric spell list". It creates a specific situation (by having the feat) and thus a specific exception to function.
Same thing applies here. :smalltongue: Initiate of Mystra spells aren't inherent Cleric spells that are listed as such, even if the choices that a particular character makes causes those spells become part of that particular Cleric's spell list. Similarly, domain spells aren't inherently Divine Crusader spells, even if the choices that a particular Divine Crusader makes causes spells of a domain to become that particular Divine Crusader's spell list.

[liquidformat]

you could always take the Arcane Disciple feat if you have the wisdom score to back it up that is...

[Gruftzwerg]

Wait, the third person to mention Divine Crusader is the one that gets the thanks? :smalltongue:
Sorry, I was short on time as I did read your post and just thought, oh prc option and " I have no room for any more dips". I should have read it more carefully. My fault. I guess I was in a hurry there..^^


That's one way of looking at it. :smallwink: Another is that the Divine Crusader has no spell list. Instead, choices that a particular Divine Crusader makes during character creation will add spells from a particular domain to that particular Divine Crusader's personal spell list. However that doesn't change the fact that no spells in Spell Compendium or anywhere else are inherently associated with Divine Crusader, or are listed as "Divine Crusader 1" or "Divine Crusader 9".


Same thing applies here. :smalltongue: Initiate of Mystra spells aren't inherent Cleric spells that are listed as such, even if the choices that a particular character makes causes those spells become part of that particular Cleric's spell list. Similarly, domain spells aren't inherently Divine Crusader spells, even if the choices that a particular Divine Crusader makes causes spells of a domain to become that particular Divine Crusader's spell list.

Yeah I guess you are right there. There problem is that the domain spells are not part of the base spellcasting abiltiy of the divine crusader but thrives from another ability/source. I have realized the problem too..



you could always take the Arcane Disciple feat if you have the wisdom score to back it up that is...

I'm trying to avoid to take the entire domain for a single spell. And the build also already aims for another domain. Finally the build is already short on feats. Dunno if I can make room for it. But I will give the option another try and see if I can make room for it.