PDA

View Full Version : Question about summoning with gate...



Xavier00
2007-11-19, 11:32 AM
Is it possible to summon someone else using gate by traveling to another plane before casting gate? It says you can summon a specific extraplanar creature. Do people count as extraplanar creatures if you are on another plane, or does it mean you can only summon outsiders?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-11-19, 11:35 AM
Any creature not on its native plane acquires the extraplanar subtype.


Extraplanar Subtype: A subtype applied to any creature when it is on a plane other than its native plane. A creature that travels the planes can gain or lose this subtype as it goes from plane to plane. Monster entries assume that encounters with creatures take place on the Material Plane, and every creature whose native plane is not the Material Plane has the extraplanar subtype (but would not have when on its home plane). Every extraplanar creature in this book has a home plane mentioned in its description. Creatures not labeled as extraplanar are natives of the Material Plane, and they gain the extraplanar subtype if they leave the Material Plane. No creature has the extraplanar subtype when it is on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow.

Aquillion
2007-11-19, 02:09 PM
Wait, wait. By that wording, whether or not a creature has the extraplanar subtype depends on whether or not it is currently on its homeplane, not on whether or not the person who wants to Gate it is on its homeplane. So, in other words, if you want to Gate in a Solar it has to be someplace away from home before you Gate it, not after.

That's stupid, and it's obviously not their intention (they meant to look for things in the book that have 'extraplanar' listed, and ignored what the word actually meant), but that's what the RAW says... something that is currently on its home plane is not extraplanar and cannot be pulled out by Gate.

Fuzzy_Juan
2007-11-19, 02:27 PM
Wait, wait. By that wording, whether or not a creature has the extraplanar subtype depends on whether or not it is currently on its homeplane, not on whether or not the person who wants to Gate it is on its homeplane. So, in other words, if you want to Gate in a Solar it has to be someplace away from home before you Gate it, not after.

That's stupid, and it's obviously not their intention (they meant to look for things in the book that have 'extraplanar' listed, and ignored what the word actually meant), but that's what the RAW says... something that is currently on its home plane is not extraplanar and cannot be pulled out by Gate.

No no...they mean a subject is considered an 'extraplanar' creature in regards to the plane you are currently on. In the case of gate, then extraplanar creature depends on the plane you are summoning the target to.

Anyone not native to the plane you are currently on may be summoned via the gate. However, the place where it breaks down is in the astral realm or any other 'transitory realm'...while in such a realm, noone is native, but noone is considered 'extraplanar' because these transitory planes touch all planes. By the hard wording, while on such planes, one may not summon anything via a gate because there would be no 'extraplanar' creature to summon. That is, since the planes touch everywhere, everyone is 'native' to the transitional planes, therefore, no gate will allow a summon of them.

Now...an open gate allows free travel between any plane (I think)...even among natives...so while a creature may not be able to be 'summoned' there may not be any reason why they can't just wander through by their own choice.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-11-19, 02:33 PM
However, the place where it breaks down is in the astral realm or any other 'transitory realm'...while in such a realm, noone is native, but noone is considered 'extraplanar' because these transitory planes touch all planes. By the hard wording, while on such planes, one may not summon anything via a gate because there would be no 'extraplanar' creature to summon. That is, since the planes touch everywhere, everyone is 'native' to the transitional planes, therefore, no gate will allow a summon of them.


Can you provide a reference to this hard wording of yours?

The Astral Plane is still considered a plane, RAW.

Xavier00
2007-11-19, 06:17 PM
So could a wizard do something like put up fire resist, plane shift to the elemental plane of fire, and then gate in any enemy who can't plane shift and doesn't has fire immunity to kill them (give them a task of something like "guard this area of the elemental plane of fire for a day). This seems kind of cheap as it will kill most non-spellcasters without giving them any kind of saving throw or anything (that's wizards for you though, I guess).

greenknight
2007-11-19, 06:39 PM
So could a wizard do something like put up fire resist, plane shift to the elemental plane of fire, and then gate in any enemy who can't plane shift and doesn't has fire immunity to kill them

Gate only works on extraplaner creatures, and a creature isn't considered to be extraplaner while it's on it's native plane (or on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow). Therefore, Gate only works on creatures which travel the planes, which usually means they do have some way of plane shifting.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-19, 06:46 PM
I like that interpretion, if only because it shuts down the titan loop. If titans can only be gated in if they are not on their home plane, then they won't have access to their gate ability (as that is the only ability they have that would allow them to have been on another plane of existence, aside from their own).

Jayabalard
2007-11-19, 07:15 PM
Gate only works on extraplaner creatures, and a creature isn't considered to be extraplaner while it's on it's native plane (or on a transitive plane, such as the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, and the Plane of Shadow). Therefore, Gate only works on creatures which travel the planes, which usually means they do have some way of plane shifting.This interpretation doesn't make any sense to me. It seems pretty clear that the frame of reference is your current plane, so the term "extraplanar" means anything that would be extraplanar on your current plane.


So could a wizard do something like put up fire resist, plane shift to the elemental plane of fire, and then gate in any enemy who can't plane shift and doesn't has fire immunity to kill them (give them a task of something like "guard this area of the elemental plane of fire for a day). This seems kind of cheap as it will kill most non-spellcasters without giving them any kind of saving throw or anything (that's wizards for you though, I guess).The call can be for an immediate task, which lasts for 1 round per level, or for something contractual... if you want them to do something that takes longer than that, you have to strike a bargain with them; while I don't see any explicit rules as to how this works, it seems pretty clear that the called creature has some control over what it's price is (reference to "livestock" here (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsFtoG.html#gate)), and that you have to come to an agreement. Somehow I think that the asking price for anyone called in such a fashion would be pretty much unpayable, so you wouldn't be able to strike a deal for a contractual task... which means that you're probably limited to immediate tasks.

So it seems like this would have limited effectiveness, since you'd have to be able to put them in a situation that would kill them very quickly (guard x for a day wouldn't work)

Aquillion
2007-11-19, 07:22 PM
No no...they mean a subject is considered an 'extraplanar' creature in regards to the plane you are currently on. In the case of gate, then extraplanar creature depends on the plane you are summoning the target to.I know that that's what they meant to say. But that isn't what it says. The relevant section of the Gate spell is worded as follows:


The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect).A creature that is snugly secured in its home plane does not have the extraplanar subtype and therefore is not extraplanar. Sure, it would be extraplanar after you gated it out... but as the spell is worded, you can't, because Gate only calls extraplanar creatures.

It doesn't say 'call a creature from another plane of existence' (although that's clearly what they intended to say), nor does it say 'call a creature that will have the extraplanar subtype when it arrives'. It says 'call an extraplanar creature', and creatures currently in their home planes very definitely do not satisfy this requirement.

While I wouldn't try and argue that this is the intended meaning, I can see some justification for this; it's plain that there is some bond between creatures and their home planes, and that it's easier to move things to their home planes than it is to move things away from them (see Dismissal, say). The commonly-accepted interpretation of Gate makes no sense--why would the spell only be able to pull things into places where they don't belong? That's just bizarre.

Interpreting it to mean that it can only pull in 'loose' creatures who are not in their home planes at the moment (and are therefore 'dimensionally untethered' in the same way that makes them vulnerable to Dismissal) makes a lot more sense, thematically.

greenknight
2007-11-19, 07:39 PM
This interpretation doesn't make any sense to me. It seems pretty clear that the frame of reference is your current plane, so the term "extraplanar" means anything that would be extraplanar on your current plane.

Lots of the RAW don't make any sense. Personally, given that the Extraplaner type is so transitive, I think it should apply to creatures with the Outsider type. But regardless of what either of us think, the spell does specify extraplaner creatures, which happens to be a creature subtype with some very special rules as to when it applies.


I like that interpretion, if only because it shuts down the titan loop. If titans can only be gated in if they are not on their home plane, then they won't have access to their gate ability (as that is the only ability they have that would allow them to have been on another plane of existence, aside from their own).

I don't think it will quite solve the problem. Titans are one of the few creatures who can cast Gate as a spell-like ability, and that can be used for Planer Travel. They can hold that Gate open for 1 round / level, and it's not clear just how many creatures can travel through a Gate per round. Furthermore, creatures who travel through the Gate for this purpose don't automatically return to their home plane when the spell ends. Therefore, you might have several armies of thousands of Titans each with the Extraplaner type, nearly all of whom would still have their Gate ability available.

Chronos
2007-11-19, 09:44 PM
Ooh, wait, if the spell applies to creatures that are, at the moment of casting, off of their home planes, then this provides the ultimate counter to wizards: Just wait until one goes to hide in his Rope Trick or Magnificent Mansion or Genesis plane to rest and replenish spells, then burn a Candle of Invocation to suck him out of his hidey-hole and ambush him while he's low on resources.

deadseashoals
2007-11-19, 09:53 PM
Ooh, wait, if the spell applies to creatures that are, at the moment of casting, off of their home planes, then this provides the ultimate counter to wizards: Just wait until one goes to hide in his Rope Trick or Magnificent Mansion or Genesis plane to rest and replenish spells, then burn a Candle of Invocation to suck him out of his hidey-hole and ambush him while he's low on resources.

Unique creatures can choose to ignore the call.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-19, 10:06 PM
I don't think it will quite solve the problem. Titans are one of the few creatures who can cast Gate as a spell-like ability, and that can be used for Planer Travel. They can hold that Gate open for 1 round / level, and it's not clear just how many creatures can travel through a Gate per round. Furthermore, creatures who travel through the Gate for this purpose don't automatically return to their home plane when the spell ends. Therefore, you might have several armies of thousands of Titans each with the Extraplaner type, nearly all of whom would still have their Gate ability available.

You might, but that would require a highly unusual set of circumstances for gate-titan cheese to work. Armies of Titans roaming around off their home plane is highly unusual. A titan off its home plane has probably used its 1 gate for the day to move off its home plane. But even if only 50% of titans off their home plane have used their gate for the day, it stops the infinite combo.

Grim Greyscale
2007-11-19, 10:06 PM
Unique creatures can choose to ignore the call.

What makes a wizard suddenly more unique than any specific titan? I'm sure the titan in question feels it is very unique.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-19, 10:07 PM
What he is saying is that you can't call "that guy", you have to call "a [creature type X]". Which means the odds of even getting a wizard are slim.

Grim Greyscale
2007-11-19, 10:09 PM
What he is saying is that you can't call "that guy", you have to call "a [creature type X]". Which means the odds of even getting a wizard are slim.

It'll still be worth it for the one time in a however many million that you totally slaughter a defenseless wizard.

Chronos
2007-11-19, 10:19 PM
Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm):
The second effect of the gate spell is to call an extraplanar creature to your aid (a calling effect). By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling. Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of their own accord.That sounds to me like you can force "Larry the Archmage" through, "willing or unwilling". The construction "Deities and unique beings" seems to imply that "unique beings" means things like Bahamut: There's only one Platinum Dragon, so Bahamut doesn't need to come through if he doesn't want to.

Aquillion
2007-11-19, 11:30 PM
Gate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/gate.htm):That sounds to me like you can force "Larry the Archmage" through, "willing or unwilling". The construction "Deities and unique beings" seems to imply that "unique beings" means things like Bahamut: There's only one Platinum Dragon, so Bahamut doesn't need to come through if he doesn't want to.Now that I read it, I think that that might be what they actually meant.

It says "By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling." The only way I can really see to interpret that in light of the sentence after it is that intended for it to be able to pull 'particular beings' through as long as they aren't a unique sort of being.

But I think it would be insane to use it that way. I mean, pulling anyone you want (as long as they're 'extraplanar', however you interpret that) to your location instantly with no saving throw, as long as they're no more than twice your level, and then forcing them to do your bidding? That's insane. Even more insane than the rest of Gate, anyway.

Keep in mind that
A controlled creature can be commanded to perform a service for you. Such services fall into two categories: immediate tasks and contractual service. Fighting for you in a single battle or taking any other actions that can be accomplished within 1 round per caster level counts as an immediate task; you need not make any agreement or pay any reward for the creature’s help. The creature departs at the end of the spell....an order to 'kill yourself' can usually be accomplished within one round per caster level.