Earliest Entry to Fiend of Possession?

[Wombles]

Hello,

We are starting a new campaign at level 5, i was wondering if it was at all possible to have any levels of FoP at this point?
And if so, how many?

I plan to be a silent character just possessing my friends weapons and enhancing them or animating random things in the room when i get high enough level to move objects

Thank you.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A character with Hide and Knowledge (Arcana) as class skills in one of their classes and Able Learner (meaning human or changeling, since you probably don't want a ton of LA) who contracts lycanthropy for the bonus HD. You'll need Otherworldly to count as an outsider, Human Heritage to qualify for lycanthropy, and some way to get the [Evil] subtype, such as the rituals in Savage Species. Put ranks in Hide and Knowledge (Arcana) using your animal HD skills. Take a level in fiend of possession, adding skill ranks in the above skills. Now cure your lycanthropy and keep the PrC.

[Wombles]

A character with Hide and Knowledge (Arcana) as class skills in one of their classes and Able Learner (meaning human or changeling, since you probably don't want a ton of LA) who contracts lycanthropy for the bonus HD. You'll need Otherworldly to count as an outsider, Human Heritage to qualify for lycanthropy, and some way to get the [Evil] subtype, such as the rituals in Savage Species. Put ranks in Hide and Knowledge (Arcana) using your animal HD skills. Take a level in fiend of possession, adding skill ranks in the above skills. Now cure your lycanthropy and keep the PrC.


This seems ~mildly~ convoluted; but thank you for the idea!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Since this requires three feats, you'll need flaws or some way to get additional feats (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?400840-List-of-Feat-Granting-Items-Locations-Grafts).

[Wombles]

Im not my DM is going to allow "my character gained and lost lycanthropy so i could cheese my way into this class that has nothing to do with lycanthropes" as a backstory though

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Im not [sure] my DM is going to allow "my character gained and lost lycanthropy so i could cheese my way into this class that has nothing to do with lycanthropes" as a backstory thoughHe doesn't have to do that just so he could gain the PrC, though it could easily be a result of a series of events that just happen to equate to the above. He has a weird ancestral history, where he is a direct line from a number of odd creatures, which is why he counts as both a human and an [Evil] outsider, and he gained lycanthropy from somewhere and adventured to find a way to cure it. He did, but not until he gained power, unlocking other bits of his genetic legacy. Perhaps the outsider was a fiend of possession itself.

Now he can make it his goal to find and destroy the lycanthrope that attacked him (and possibly killed someone close to him), as well as his awful outsider ancestor -- perhaps the ghost of a pit fiend or something.

[Wombles]

He doesn't have to do that just so he could gain the PrC, though it could easily be a result of a series of events that just happen to equate to the above. He has a weird ancestral history, where he is a direct line from a number of odd creatures, which is why he counts as both a human and an [Evil] outsider, and he gained lycanthropy from somewhere and adventured to find a way to cure it. He did, but not until he gained power, unlocking other bits of his genetic legacy. Perhaps the outsider was a fiend of possession itself.

Now he can make it his goal to find and destroy the lycanthrope that attacked him (and possibly killed someone close to him), as well as his awful outsider ancestor -- perhaps the ghost of a pit fiend or something.

Well, that's hard to argue with, i'll just have to try do the level path break down to see what im actually at at level 5.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Is your DM actually okay with early-entry tricks?

[Wombles]

Is your DM actually okay with early-entry tricks?

Probably not, i was looking for more of a straightforward path / race suggestions that give me the evil / outsider types with low hd and LA penalties

[Thurbane]

I think the usual answer for this one is a Diabolus (Dragon Compendium) with the Divine Minion template. LA +2, no RHD.

[Wombles]

I think the usual answer for this one is a Diabolus (Dragon Compendium) with the Divine Minion template. LA +2, no RHD.

So that would be LA+2
ECL 3 - (some class with +2 will save)
ECL 4 - (second level of above class)
ECL 5 - (Some other class with +2 will save)
ECL 6 - First level of FoP?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I think the usual answer for this one is a Diabolus (Dragon Compendium) with the Divine Minion template. LA +2, no RHD.How is LA +2 getting in early? That sounds like 2 levels late, to me.

[Thurbane]

How is LA +2 getting in early? That sounds like 2 levels late, to me.

Sorry, let me clarify - early without massive amounts of cheese probably disallowed at a lot of tables. :smallbiggrin:

Also, LA buyoff is a thing in some games.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Sorry, let me clarify - early without massive amounts of cheese probably disallowed at a lot of tables. :smallbiggrin:

Also, LA buyoff is a thing in some games.The OP wants early-entry, not late-entry. Easy enough for a class with one skill as a prereq; not so much with two. Gotta get creative, and RAW the lycanthropy entry works, if nothing else.

There's a reason I asked about the DM's position on stuff like this; it might be a losing proposition no matter what.

[Paragon]

Any lesser planetouched (or Otherwordly feat), 2 (or 3) classes with good Will and Know(Arcana)/Hide as class skills (Beguiler fits the bill) and the secret ingredient Ritual of Alignment (Savage Species 148) tadaaa

[Telonius]

Okay, this will require some backtstory shenanigans. First, you need a way to be both an Outsider and have the [Evil] subtype. There are a few races that get you Outsider with 0 Level Adjustment. Neraphim (Planar Handbook) is probably the best-known, but there's another one (Glimmerfolk) from Dragon 321. Also a couple of racial classes for Tiefling and Aasimar in Savage Species.

So, you have your Outsider. What you need next is a ritual of alignment from Savage Species. These are expensive, and there's not really a good way for you to afford them by first level, if you're actually playing in a regular game with regular WBL. So, it's either TO methods of getting "free" money, or backstory shenanigans. Somebody else paid for it on your behalf. This absolutely requires DM buy-in, but there's technically nothing against the rules against it. (I used this trick in a Villainous Competition (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?406015-Villainous-Competition-3-Or-No-Holds-Barred!/page3) once - for a Fiend of Corruption, but it works for Possession just as well).

So we have our 0-LA Evil Outsider. All you need then is a Will save of +5. As long as you're not playing with the fractional saves variant, just pick three classes with good Will saves and take a level in each. You now have a base Will save of +6, meeting all of the prerequisites of Fiend of Possession. So, you could potentially get two levels of Fiend of Possession by level 5.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A thought just occurred.

It's much cheaper to start as an LA 0 outsider, then buy a casting of polymorph any object to turn yourself into an [Evil] outsider than it is to buy the ritual in Savage Species, and once you're in the class, you don't need to retain the prereqs unless the class says you do, so dispelling isn't a problem from that angle.

[Doctor Despair]

A thought just occurred.

It's much cheaper to start as an LA 0 outsider, then buy a casting of polymorph any object to turn yourself into an [Evil] outsider than it is to buy the ritual in Savage Species, and once you're in the class, you don't need to retain the prereqs unless the class says you do, so dispelling isn't a problem from that angle.

Regular old Polymorph should work for that, I think. You gain the Evil subtype. 4x8x40=1280, so you can afford this by ECL 3. You'd need an untemplated [evil] outsider of HD 3 or less to enter on time though.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It doesn't give quite as many abilities, but the ghost savage progression (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040117a) (which explicitly says you can multiclass out at any time) would get you at least some of what you're after. Just use malevolence to possess critters. Then see if the DM will allow you progress your possession abilities with fiend of possession once you qualify normally, since it's actually more fitting for a ghost to possess people than, say, a tiefling.

It...does require 4 levels with no HD, though. :smallsigh:

[ShurikVch]

Ghostwalk have two spells:
Leech Ghost Skill (Sorcerer/Wizard 5) allow to use a Ghost's skill ranks instead of your own; lasts day/CL; 100 gp materials
Demonic Blood Infusion (Cleric/Sorcerer/Wizard 6) gives you Fiendish template, Chaotic and Evil subtypes, and make you count as an Outsider for the purpose of spells and effects that affect only certain creature types; lasts hour/CL; 100 gp of materials

[mabriss lethe]

Speaking of Ghostwalk, the LA 0 Ghost template in the book changes your type to outsider. Skills and saves can come from whatever class works best. you just need to find a way to snag the Evil subtype and you're in. Though with a Base Save of +5, the earliest entry level would be 7.

Though as a ghostwalk ghost, you can accomplish some similar stuff while waiting to enter.

[Doctor Despair]

I suppose for OP's benefit, I'd also like to draw their attention to the "Hero's Weapon" build in my sig for any inspiration. It's literally what they're trying to do.

[ShurikVch]

Speaking of Ghostwalk, the LA 0 Ghost template in the book changes your type to outsider. Skills and saves can come from whatever class works best. you just need to find a way to snag the Evil subtype and you're in. Though with a Base Save of +5, the earliest entry level would be 7.

Though as a ghostwalk ghost, you can accomplish some similar stuff while waiting to enter.
The problem with Ghostwalk Ghost is: it railroads you into either Eidolon, or Eidoloncer - you're literally incapable to take levels in other classes (otherwise, rules for the Calling and the life epiphany wouldn't make much sense)
For LA +0 Outsiders, there are Neraphim and Glimmerfolk

[Paragon]

Found out that Divine Minion of X (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) template gives you both Outsider & The subtype of the deity you fit in that X. So Divine Minion of Sebek grants you the Outsider [Evil] you need and it's LA+1. Meaning you can get 3 levels of 3 classes that grant good will save (or Beguiler2/X1 as I will do it) and you can get a level of Fiend of Possession as your 5th level hourray !

If the DM let's you buyoff that LA (at level 3 mind you) you can start at level 4 with a level of FoP and you'll catchup eventually to your party with 2 levels of FoP by level 5 :D

[Doctor Despair]

Found out that Divine Minion of X (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a) template gives you both Outsider & The subtype of the deity you fit in that X. So Divine Minion of Sebek grants you the Outsider [Evil] you need and it's LA+1. Meaning you can get 3 levels of 3 classes that grant good will save (or Beguiler2/X1 as I will do it) and you can get a level of Fiend of Possession as your 5th level hourray !

If the DM let's you buyoff that LA (at level 3 mind you) you can start at level 4 with a level of FoP and you'll catchup eventually to your party with 2 levels of FoP by level 5 :D

You need to have an alignment subtype already in order for the template to grant the Evil subtype, sadly. That's why we are suggesting Diabolus (LA+1) along with the Divine Minion template (LA+2) if you don't want to cheese it, or polymorph if you do.

[mabriss lethe]

The problem with Ghostwalk Ghost is: it railroads you into either Eidolon, or Eidoloncer - you're literally incapable to take levels in other classes (otherwise, rules for the Calling and the life epiphany wouldn't make much sense)
For LA +0 Outsiders, there are Neraphim and Glimmerfolk

There are sidebars in the book that deal with removing the Calling and the class restrictions from a game. Whether a GM will use/allow them or not is another matter, but the rules exist.

[Thurbane]

In terms of classes, Spellthief 2/Beguiler 1 (or vice versa) meets the skill and save reqs.

I also recommend advancing FoP with Uncanny Trickster, if you want to focus on being a skill monkey. It kind of sucks that FoP only gets 2 skill points/level. Downside is your FoP progression is delayed one level.

[Doctor Despair]

In terms of classes, Spellthief 2/Beguiler 1 (or vice versa) meets the skill and save reqs.

I also recommend advancing FoP with Uncanny Trickster, if you want to focus on being a skill monkey. It kind of sucks that FoP only gets 2 skill points/level. Downside is your FoP progression is delayed one level.

This issue with casting classes is that you can't easily supply casting components while you're in the weapon. That's why I used Ardent/ Dragon Shaman for some discrete, repeatable buffs at least

[ben-zayb]

If you're allowed convoluted backstories, you can be an LA+0 Outsider and go for "A Void Disciple wizard gave me the Assume Supernatural Ability feat, and PAOd me into a Barghest. I gained HD wih its Feed ability, progressed to FoP, then got my Barghest form (and extra HD) from PAO dispelled/disjoined." This presumes the extra HD from the Barghest's Feed ability also gets removed if you're no longer a Barghest.

Voila, you get 5 levels of FOP at level 5.

[SpicyBoi_Nezu]

Play as a Succubus/Incubus, use Savage Species monster class mechanic, take the "Succubus/Incubus" monster class (pg. 196) gives you +3 will, and one level in some class that gives +2 will at first level (I recommend Bard).

This allows you to take fiend of possession levels at 4th and 5th, netting you possession, curse, and magic item. No feat investment, no magic item shenanigans, no spells required, and a relatively reasonable method most any DM will approve of, especially if they approved "Fiend of Possession". Not to mention, you can use telepathy from Succubus to communicate in item form, and since you got tongues at 1st level, you can communicate with literally any intelligent creature while inside an item.

[Wombles]

Play as a Succubus/Incubus, use Savage Species monster class mechanic, take the "Succubus/Incubus" monster class (pg. 196) gives you +3 will, and one level in some class that gives +2 will at first level (I recommend Bard).

This allows you to take fiend of possession levels at 4th and 5th, netting you possession, curse, and magic item. No feat investment, no magic item shenanigans, no spells required, and a relatively reasonable method most any DM will approve of, especially if they approved "Fiend of Possession". Not to mention, you can use telepathy from Succubus to communicate in item form, and since you got tongues at 1st level, you can communicate with literally any intelligent creature while inside an item.

I thought once you started a racial class like those in Savage Species you couldn't take other classes until you were done.

"A monster character may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monster’s type and then quickly switching to a standard class"

[Doctor Despair]

I thought once you started a racial class like those in Savage Species you couldn't take other classes until you were done.

"A monster character may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monster’s type and then quickly switching to a standard class"

As I recall, it depends on which savage progression you're using; one version requires you to finish it entirely first, and another only requires that you finish it... eventually. Could be after you hit level 30 for all the rule cares. Also as I recall, the more broadly worded, unbalanced one was the earlier one, unsurprisingly enough.

[Wombles]

As I recall, it depends on which savage progression you're using; one version requires you to finish it entirely first, and another only requires that you finish it... eventually. Could be after you hit level 30 for all the rule cares. Also as I recall, the more broadly worded, unbalanced one was the earlier one, unsurprisingly enough.

Interesting, any idea where to find that rule?

Edit: Found it Looks like its for templates only though.

[Malphegor]

Just of note while I was looking up options for this, thanks to Eberron Campaign Setting having a sidebar on it all fiends with sufficiently big enough charisma already apparently get a posession ability that resembles a low level fiend of posession.

[Paragon]

Play as a Succubus/Incubus, use Savage Species monster class mechanic, take the "Succubus/Incubus" monster class (pg. 196) gives you +3 will, and one level in some class that gives +2 will at first level (I recommend Bard).

This allows you to take fiend of possession levels at 4th and 5th, netting you possession, curse, and magic item. No feat investment, no magic item shenanigans, no spells required, and a relatively reasonable method most any DM will approve of, especially if they approved "Fiend of Possession". Not to mention, you can use telepathy from Succubus to communicate in item form, and since you got tongues at 1st level, you can communicate with literally any intelligent creature while inside an item.

"A monster character may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monster's type and then quickly switching to a standard class" p152
I was so happy yu found something but then... nope

[Zarvistic]

"A monster character may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monster's type and then quickly switching to a standard class" p152
I was so happy yu found something but then... nope
The later web enhancements do allow it for some templates so perhaps your DM is willing to let you use it with monster classes too? It doesn't sound like you mean to use the fiend class for anything game-breaking.

[ShurikVch]

Note: CE or NE Petitioner have both Outsider type and Evil subtype, and - technically - LA +0; all you would need is to get the skill ranks and Will save

Overall, looks like the 4th level is the "hard limit" for entering FoP (at least, without abusing negative LA - with it, you can enter FoP below the 0th level)

[Paragon]

The later web enhancements do allow it for some templates so perhaps your DM is willing to let you use it with monster classes too? It doesn't sound like you mean to use the fiend class for anything game-breaking.

Do you happen to have the link for it ?

[Wildstag]

Note: CE or NE Petitioner have both Outsider type and Evil subtype, and - technically - LA +0; all you would need is to get the skill ranks and Will save

Overall, looks like the 4th level is the "hard limit" for entering FoP (at least, without abusing negative LA - with it, you can enter FoP below the 0th level)

Not having a level adjustment listed is NOT the same as LA +0. Doesn't look like that template is a PC template at all.

[Zarvistic]

Do you happen to have the link for it ?
Yes, it's these articles: Savage Progressions (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp)

[ShurikVch]

Not having a level adjustment listed is NOT the same as LA +0.
It is - for templates:

A template's description provides a set of instructions for altering an existing creature, known as the base creature.
The changes that a template might cause to each line of a creature's statistics block are discussed below. Generally, if a template does not cause a change to a certain statistic, that entry is missing from the template description. For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as "Same as the base creature."
If no LA was mentioned - then it's the "same as the base creature" (i. e. +0 for the template itself)


Doesn't look like that template is a PC template at all.
3.5 update booklet for Manual of the Planes don't lists them as "LA: —" - thus, a fair play for a PC...

[Paragon]

I think the usual answer for this one is a Diabolus (Dragon Compendium) with the Divine Minion template. LA +2, no RHD.

Is the Diabolus eligible for its lesser version from PGtF ? If so it's only LA+1 :D

[Wildstag]

It is - for templates:

If no LA was mentioned - then it's the "same as the base creature" (i. e. +0 for the template itself)


3.5 update booklet for Manual of the Planes don't lists them as "LA: —" - thus, a fair play for a PC...

Per the quote you provided, 'For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as "Same as the base creature."' The word "sometimes" means that it is not the general rule. If it were, it'd say "the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is given as 'Same as the base creature'." One uses concrete wording, the other doesn't.


Is the Diabolus eligible for its lesser version from PGtF ? If so it's only LA+1 :D

Firstly, Diabolus is already an LA +1 race. Secondly, a lesser variant would remove the Outsider type from it, which is necessary for the PrC we're focusing on.

[Paragon]

Firstly, Diabolus is already an LA +1 race. Secondly, a lesser variant would remove the Outsider type from it, which is necessary for the PrC we're focusing on.

Divine minion gives it back. But would you lose your subtype with the lesser version ?

[Elves]

and some way to get the [Evil] subtype, such as the rituals in Savage Species.
the ritual costs 50k unfortunately so doesn't work for early entry

[MaxiDuRaritry]

the ritual costs 50k unfortunately so doesn't work for early entryNot for this, but it might if you started at higher levels. IIRC, the DMG mentions that you don't actually buy all of your equipment at higher levels, and sometimes you can get your +5 vorpal greatsword when you first left home, or something. If you apportion your WBL to "buy" the ritual back when you were a 1st level peon, then fluff it as something you were born as (or developed in some other way) as part of your backstory, it might work.

[ShurikVch]

Per the quote you provided, 'For clarity, the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is sometimes given as "Same as the base creature."' The word "sometimes" means that it is not the general rule. If it were, it'd say "the entry for a statistic or attribute that is not changed is given as 'Same as the base creature'." One uses concrete wording, the other doesn't.
Not a general rule?..
Oh, come on!
What's you mean - most of templated creatures are weightless (some of tempates change weight), immobile (some of tempates change speed), and invisible (some of tempates change appearance)?
Because I'm pretty sure none of tempates have "Weight (/Speed/Appearance): as base creature" line...

[Wombles]

Alright it looks like the DM is willing to allow:
"someone paid for your ritual of gain a subtype, and now you owe them a huge favor" Rp plan, so i'll be taking my FoP first level as 4th level, whoo! (for a total of 2 levels at ECL 5)

[Thurbane]

If you're getting the subtype essentially for free, maybe go Neraph as the race? It's one of the few LA +0 Outsider races.

[Jervis]

A thought just occurred.

It's much cheaper to start as an LA 0 outsider, then buy a casting of polymorph any object to turn yourself into an [Evil] outsider than it is to buy the ritual in Savage Species, and once you're in the class, you don't need to retain the prereqs unless the class says you do, so dispelling isn't a problem from that angle.

Doesn’t Planar Chasuble give you Evil Subtype? If so that’s just a dip into Incarnate.

[Wombles]

If you're getting the subtype essentially for free, maybe go Neraph as the race? It's one of the few LA +0 Outsider races.

Even if i'm a big ugly frog-face no one will know it since i'll be possessing stuff all day.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Doesn’t Planar Chasuble give you Evil Subtype? If so that’s just a dip into Incarnate.My crystal ball says "no."

"When you wear the chasuble, you are considered a native on any plane with an alignment trait matching your chosen alignment (and gain the extraplanar subtype while on the Material Plane). While on such a plane, you ignore the effect of any alignment traits of the plane. For example, a lawful incarnate who shapes this soulmeld would be considered native to any plane with the lawful trait, including the Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia and the Nine Hells of Baator. You also gain resistance 10 to a specific energy type, based on your alignment. Chaotic incarnates gain resistance to electricity 10, evil incarnates gain resistance to acid 10, good incarnates gain resistance to cold 10, and lawful incarnates gain resistance to fire 10."

So you are considered native to a plane of your chosen alignment (and extraplanar to the Material Plane), ignore alignment traits of any plane you're "native" to, and gain energy resistance to one energy type. Binding it grants you gate 1/week.

[Thurbane]

Even if i'm a big ugly frog-face no one will know it since i'll be possessing stuff all day.

You could even fluff the ritual as awakening dormant blood in you from a Hezrou in your ancestry...

https://i.imgur.com/OyCh9ij.jpg