(PF1) Potential cleric VMC option (PEACH)

[Shpadoinkle]

I've always kinda had a problem with the cleric class, as-is. Clerics of different gods all have access to the exact same spell list, and there's not a whole lot to differentiate a cleric of, say, the god of strength and warfare from a cleric of the god of agriculture and livestock from a cleric of the god of thieves and assassins. In a pinch, they could just prepare appropriate spells and be almost as good as the others at whatever task you set them. I was never real happy about this.

Then someone at Paizo came up with the Variant Multiclassing rules in Pathfinder, and this ALMOST works for what I want the cleric to be. It works conceptually, but mechanically I'm still not satisfied with something like that.

Basically, the VMC rules in Pathfinder go, you sacrifice every other feat you'd normally get from level advancement, and in exchange you get class features from your chosen multiclass without actually taking levels in it. Which I think is actually a great concept, the execution leaves a lot to be desired. Like, by level 7, you channel energy as a level 1 cleric (this is practically useless at this point,) you have the granted powers of one domain, and you can spontaneously convert prepared spells to cure or inflict spells. (But evidently you can't cast them at all if you're a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer? Unless you have an archetype or something grants access to them.)

Anyway, my proposed change to this is that VMCing as a cleric just... grants you a domain. You have the domain powers and domain spell slots as a cleric of your level, even if you can't normally cast spells, like if your primary class is fighter. Want to be a fighter who's a cleric of the god of thieves? Then you get the Trickery domain's abilities (Bluff, Disguise, and Stealth become class skills, etc.) and at level 1 you can, once per day, cast Disguise Self. At level 3 you can also cast Invisibility once per day, etc. etc.

Would this work alright or am I overlooking something that would make this overpowered?

[Shpadoinkle]

Is this really THAT terrible of an idea, or is it just so boring that nobody has anything to say?

[Tzardok]

My "problem" is that your problem (you don't like that clerics of different deities aren't different enough) and your solution (you put domains on non-cleric classes) don't seem to have anything to do with each other. I mean, what's that supposed to do? Does a fighter with the Fire domain do a better job at symbolizing a priest of a fire deity (for example, Pele) than a cleric with the Fire domain?

To me, a solution for your stated problem would be returning to 2e. In 2e, there wasn't a spell list for clerics. Instead there were a bunch of spell lists called spheres, and every deity granted a selection of those spheres, and a cleric's spell list was all spheres granted by their deity together. Domains are the "simplyfied" version of that. Leaning stronger into domains, making them deeper and more meaningful, sounds like a better solution than weakening their meaning by spreading them to other classes.

[Shpadoinkle]

I mean, what's that supposed to do? Does a fighter with the Fire domain do a better job at symbolizing a priest of a fire deity (for example, Pele) than a cleric with the Fire domain?

Well, using this system, if you're a cleric of the god of fire, you're PROBABLY going to go with a build that's fire themed. A wizard with mostly fire spells, or a fighter who takes feats that allow him to fight with torches, or an alchemist who throws flasks of alchemists' fire.



To me, a solution for your stated problem would be returning to 2e. In 2e, there wasn't a spell list for clerics. Instead there were a bunch of spell lists called spheres, and every deity granted a selection of those spheres, and a cleric's spell list was all spheres granted by their deity together. Domains are the "simplyfied" version of that. Leaning stronger into domains, making them deeper and more meaningful, sounds like a better solution than weakening their meaning by spreading them to other classes.

Frankly that's kinda what I was going for here, but streamlining the process via the VMC rules instead of writing a bajillion subclasses (or archetypes, in PF terms) for it, OR assigning 'spheres' to literally every divine spell in the game. A rogue who's a cleric of the god of thieves gets some spells to help him do thieving stuff, or if he's more of an enforcer, legbreaker type he might be a cleric of the god of strength, so he'd get powers and spells from the Strength domain, etc.

As I said, the problem I have with the cleric class as-is is that clerics of wildly different deities can theoretically just prepare different spells tomorrow and be as good at whatever as clerics of the god whose portfolio includes that. Why can a cleric of a god of peaceful study and knowledge cast stuff like Bull's Strength? Why can a cleric of the god of pillage and plunder cast Plant Growth? These aren't the best examples, I admit, but I don't know how else to clarify my point.

If you don't agree with my point, or don't like it, that's fine. I'm asking about the mechanical repercussions, not how much you like or agree with my positon.

[nonsi]

I think you might find THIS (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=18777415&postcount=13) useful.

[Shpadoinkle]

I think you might find THIS (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=18777415&postcount=13) useful.

Making half a dozen new subclasses is exactly what I'm trying to AVOID with this idea.

[nonsi]

Making half a dozen new subclasses is exactly what I'm trying to AVOID with this idea.

Remember that in homebrewing, everything is optional.
The basic stuff is more than enough. You can disregard Priest Variants altogether and you'd still have more than enough to work with.

You could optionally include Exorcist for the holy man part and Healer for the Healbot. They're simple, straight forward and deep within theme.

[Shpadoinkle]

I'm not interested in adding new classes, and that's not what this thread is about. I am specifically asking for feedback, in regards to balance, on the idea in the original post.

[nonsi]

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Unless you fully flesh out your vision, you'll not have enough to go on for the long run and you'll leave too much work for anyone who'd want to adopt your solution.
For a worthwhile feedback, you'd have to specify what each level-feat would grant from each class.
I predict that the value-for-money will be quite asymmetrical - according to which class pays the feat toll for which class-abilities.

[Shpadoinkle]

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Unless you fully flesh out your vision, you'll not have enough to go on for the long run and you'll leave too much work for anyone who'd want to adopt your solution.


I don't understand what it is you're not understanding or need clarification on. You use the variant multiclassing rules (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Classes/character-advancement/#Variant_Multiclassing), in which you give up every other 'level' feat you'd normally get (sacrificing the ones you'd get at level 3, 7, 11, etc.) and in exchange you gain the domain powers of a given domain, as well as one casting of each spell in that domain per day, with your total character level being treated as your cleric level for these purposes. A fighter 6/rogue 4 is treated as a 10th level cleric for these abilities.

If that's not clear enough, then I cannot for the life of me fathom how else I could possibly explain it any more clearly.

[nonsi]

Oh, I get in now.
Must've read your post when I was tired and didn't quite understand what you meant by "VMCing". I've been out of the loop for quite a while and it took me some time to connect the dots.
Anyway, Tzardok's observation is correct. You have issues with the Cleric class and your solution is to allow other classes to cherry-pick from the Cleric (... and other classes). That doesn't add up as something that would fix your issues.
If you want to diversify clerics, allow adding (more or less evenly spread) anywhere from 2 to 4 extra domains along the way to level 20.
That would of course make the CoDZilla problem even worse. That's why I propose disallowing Divine Power and Righteous Might at the very least.

[Shpadoinkle]

That would of course make the CoDZilla problem even worse.

Yes, it would, which is why I'm not doing that and instead came up with the idea in the first post.

I'd also like to point out that you still haven't answered the question I asked in the first post.

[Morphic tide]

Okay, so if I understand things correctly, your problem is that the default Cleric list causes "Cleric" to dictate what the character is, rather than "Of X", correct? This is a rather dramatic issue because Clerics actually do have a general core function as healers and backup frontline, to be a Cleric inherently means access to decent armor and healing magic, and leaving the casting to Domains... Causes there to end up being a lot more Domains printed to expand the list, avoiding which being the cause for the creation of Subdomains in PF1e.

My own suggestion would be having the Cleric's slots follow a 1+1/1+2/2+2/2+3 progression, where they still get five of each per day as per usual, but the *default* general list slots do not surpass the Domain slots. To facilitate this, they could furthermore gain bonus Domains to have some variety in filling the additional slots, but in a way still fundamentally tied to their Deity. Official PF1e deities seem to generally possess five Domains to choose from, so 6th/12th/18th for additional Domains would be a regular progression eventually covering all of them.

This makes it so that while they do get to have a good deal of general slots, the Domain spells make up a very large part of their spells/day, making it nearly mandatory to operate in line with what the Domains do to be properly effective. A Cleric of Gorum, with Glory, Strength, and War, is going to have a vastly easier time participating in Grand Beatstickery than a Cleric of Pharasma, as it takes 18 Wisdom to get one bonus 4th-level slot for Divine Power, and a second is going to take 26. Doesn't force the majority, but does end up occupying a very large portion.

[Shpadoinkle]

Okay, so if I understand things correctly, your problem is that the default Cleric list causes "Cleric" to dictate what the character is, rather than "Of X", correct?

That about sums it up, yeah.

What you've proposed is an interesting solution I actually like a lot... I've pondered the idea of a 'domain only cleric' before, but I felt like that would be TOO restrictive.

The option you've come up with still emphasizes domains, and which god you follow matters a lot more than it does for a core RAW cleric, but it still allows clerics to access their list of general spells, just fewer of them per day (not counting spell completion items like scrolls or wands or staves.)

I still feel like 'cleric' shouldn't so much be a class in itself, but rather something more like a profession a character has, and maybe invests something into (such as feats) in exchange for god-granted powers (like domain powers and spells.) But your idea seems like a good compromise.

[nonsi]

I'd also like to point out that you still haven't answered the question I asked in the first post.


>> Anyway, my proposed change to this is that VMCing as a cleric just... grants you a domain. You have the domain powers and domain spell slots as a cleric of your level, even if you can't normally cast spells
. . .
>> Would this work alright or am I overlooking something that would make this overpowered?

Since domains are far from equal (given spells of a given level are far from equal), then the choice of one domain might give you a reasonable result, while choosing another domain might result OP.