“Good” tier 3 characters

[Spo]

Starting a new campaign at level 12. We were given the option to continue using characters we played in our Rime campaign but my hero has completed her journey (and also I’m druided out having played 3 different subclasses at various levels).

I never started a campaign at tier 3 before and want some advice from you guys. I have played to lvl 20 before (Mad Mage).

I'm not looking for "what is the most optimized mix" - but really I'm wondering about what classes really shine at this tier and which ones just don't hold interest in later levels. (Yes, multiclassing is allowed if you have some ideas on a fun mix.)

Besides no druids, I’ll add no monks bc I’ve played Open hand and shadow ones before and while they were fun, I want something different.

Again, I'm mostly interested in things like "Monks really come into their own in Tier 3" or "Barbarians don't really evolve, just more numbers, so Tier 3 isn't anything special" or "Bladesingers really can't keep up with weapon attacks, so a different wizard subclass will keep it's identity better" or "eldritch knight is finally firing on all gears at those levels". And all of the above is just made up samples - I'm looking for people with actual play experience at those levels for what they saw work well.

Thank you for your attention in this request.

[nickl_2000]

Typically the Barbarian and Ranger are the worst in tier 3.
You are getting a few more spells for the ranger and slightly increased abilities, but overall you are just not getting anything all that exciting.


I like the Rogue as a skill monkey in Tier 3. With Evasion at 7, 4 expertised skills, and reliable talent at 11 you really are going to do great things with your skills and you will not be failing very much. Put it on an arcane trickster, people get disadvantage saving against your spells when they can't see you (really easy since your lowest stealth score can easily be 23 at this point). You also have 3 ASIs to play around with compared to others only getting 3. If you want to be even more of a skill monkey you can take the skill expert or the skilled feats.



As an artificer starting in tier 3, you can instantly replicate stat boosting magic items (Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, Headband of Intellect) and you get access to more at 14. With the guarantee of those items, it opens up some interesting build options with stats that you wouldn't be able to do starting at level 1.

[KorvinStarmast]

Are you starting with any magic items?

I have found, in the Tier 3 and Tier 4 one shots, that monks are quite fun and good. you have enough ki to do a variety of things at that point. Open Hand and Sun Soul are the two I like best but I've not tried the Mercy Monk yet.

My champion fighter, half orc, did well in Tier 3. He was sword and Sword and Board, defensive fighting style, kinda tanky. Shield Master before Crawford backpedaled and the whole nerf happened. :smallfurious: If I were to rebuild him I might go with Sentinel.

Lore Bard: I had no idea how effective she'd be. She plays as a support. If your role is as a support, Lore Bard is very hard to beat. Cutting words and Bardic Inspiration (recharge on a short rest) magic secrets, but be careful about loading up on too many spells that inflict the charmed condition. We found quite a few foes in Tier 3 immune to it. Take Slow, take Blindness/Deafness, boost you casting stat as far as you can to help the spells land/take effect. If you are allowed to pick an uncommon item, I'd suggest the Cittern that is the bard instrument. Nice suite of features.

Wizard: the range of spells you can put together is nice. I don't think any class won't be good in tier 3, tailor the Wizard to fit your party.

Our Sorcerer/Warlock in Tier 3 had the benefit of a strong magic item (staff of power) so I can't speak to his base effectiveness without items.

I've watched every paladin I played with in Tier 3 games or one shots be excellent. Devotion, Ancients, and Glory stand out.

Ranger Gloom Stalker: the 11th level feature where a miss can be rolled again is sweet. If you add the lucky feat, or the Sharpshooter feat, you get some pretty nice damage bursts. The spell list is OK and provides some flexibility that I saw, in play, as being far better than the pooh poohing you read on this board. Into Tier 4 I can't comment on. I wish Ranger Capstones had more oomph.

Are you allowed to Multiclass?

Lastly: my only experience in Tier 3 Rogue was with a swashbuckler who, after level 13, MC'd into Warlock. Very effective. But I think a straight up Rogue 12, if you expect to get to 13 and unlock "Use Magic Device" might be a great change of pace from Druid in terms of play style. I like the Rogue/Thief kit, having played a ton of rogues and thieves in all of the editions I have played. (Only played one in this edition, need to stretch the muscles).

[Khrysaes]

Are you allowed to Multiclass?

My first questions as well. Also, do you want to?

Many caster classes can be fun. At 14 the hexblade has armor of hexes, i think is the name, from level 10. Coversely a bard gets magical secrets at 10. You can start as a bard with find greater steed if thats what you wanted to do.

I like artificer and rogue at 12 too. Artificer has 4 attunement slots, spell storing item. Level 10 infusions. Can be fun.

Most of my characters multiclass so if you can or want to. You can get some fun characters.

[Bobthewizard]

Wizards and bards start to pull away from other classes at these levels. Chronurgy is probably best from 10-13, then illusionist at level 14. Nuclear wizard is great if your DM follows RAW for magic missile, but most don't.

Straight hexblade is really good at level 11. Half-elf with elven accuracy, devil's sight, great weapon master, thirsting blade, eldritch smite and life drinker brings a lot of damage.

Fighters start to shine at these levels. That third attack makes a big difference for them. Possibly EK 11 then go wizard or sorcerer for more slots for shadow blade. One level of wizard lets you use a staff of power if you get a choice in your magic items.

Paladins are great at any level, but their lack of good ranged options put them behind some paladin multiclass builds at these levels.

There are some multiclass builds that shine at this tier. Hexblade 2/Paladin 2/ Swords bard 6+ would have CHA based extra attack and a lot of smites. Or if you have good stats, you can drop the hexblade levels for more bard levels.

Echo knight 3/Hexblade X is a lot of fun.

Battlemaster 3/Shadow monk would be fun at these levels but you said no monk.

So many possibilities.

[Dork_Forge]

Some of my favourites for Tier 3 (from play and DMing):

Soulknife Rogue, take Dueling with the fighting style feat to up your damage a touch, your skill monkeying is near unchallenged

Psi Warrior Fighter, plenty of Psi dice at these levels, with the ability to fly and act as both spike damage and party tanking. If you're looking for maximum options then grab Fey Touched or something for the teleport

Artificer, any of them really the core class alone is great in Tier 3 (and all Tiers) and the subclasses are all fully online before Tier 3

Mercy Monk w/Healer feat, damage, control, healing the whole package

[DigoDragon]

Chronurgy

Nuclear wizard

I have not heard of these build terms before. Could you give me a quick high-level of what these are?

[Chaos Jackal]

Since you're asking about how particular classes fare in tier 3+, I'll exclude specific multiclassing suggestions, though there might be mentions otherwise. I'll also, per your request, exclude druids and monks.

Barbarians and rangers have pretty poor scaling going into tier 3, largely getting just numbers or even less than that. With rangers at least you can look at some subclass features and higher spell levels (you're getting summoning among other things) but barbarians get the shaft. Brutal Critical is extremely weak and takes up a lot of design space. Many subclass features are just minor improvements over older stuff. Rage damage scales poorly, and until you get infinite uses its usage increase is also slow. While powerful in tier 1, barbarians gradually get weaker through tier 2 and just fall off a cliff in tier 3.

Rogue's Reliable Talent is a case of what you want. If you do care about skills, it's solid in tier 3. If not, well, better go with something else.

Fighter's third attack is the best way for a martial to scale into tier 3, but after that they don't really get anything until lv17 with the second Action Surge, which is OK, and the fourth attack at lv20, but those are quite a way off. Taking a fighter to 11 or 12 (for one last ASI) is a good case for a martial class, but after that multiclassing is a good idea. Eldritch Knights in particular benefit greatly from wizard levels. Rune Knights and to extent Psi Warriors are the cases where taking more than 11-12 levels offers something substantial, as their features actually get a good boost later on.

Paladins and artificers make for pretty good and flavorful picks if taken into tier 3. For the most part, both gain solid boosts both from their base class and their subclass, scaling well into higher levels. Improved Divine Smite is no third attack but it's not peanuts either, find greater steed is really good, higher level smites (and spells) are always welcome and the actual features are often nothing to scoff at either.

Artificers do rely a bit on your DM handing out items or allowing you to craft them, but worst case scenario you can gear yourself up with infusions (if anything, in a low item game Replicate Magic Item could make a big difference) and Spell-Storing Item combined with things like the homunculus gives you excellent action economy, while the subclass features generally won't disappoint.

As for full casters, those in general will be good in tier 3 regardless of class.

Warlock is finally getting that third slot, and while Mystic Arcanum is weaker than actual slots it still gives you access to high-level spells (and you get some good ones like mass suggestion and forcecage), in addition to some nice invocations and, depending on the subclass, potentially a decent feature or two.

Clerics get flak for a lack of high-level features, but they still get high-level spells that they automatically know, and while their list isn't nowhere near the wizard's they do have some heavy hitters (see heroes' feast, summon celestial, planar ally and regenerate, plus a few in 8ths and 9ths).

Sorcerers are really feeling their limited spell selection at this point so if you're not willing to deal with that you can look elsewhere, but otherwise they also have access to some really good spells, they finally have a decent number of metamagics and they have the points to put them to use, so you can pull off some crazy if limited in number shenanigans.

Bards get even more Magical Secrets, which at these levels means things like simulacrum or magic jar, their own higher level spells and the ever-increasing numbers of Inspiration and Expertise. Other class features might or might not satisfy, but overall the package is more than good.

And finally, the wizard's massive spell list continues to shine, with many of the best spells in the game being more than enough to make them excellent in tier 3. Tier 3 is also the level where some of the best subclasses are fully unlocked, like the chronurgist, the evoker (in particular the Hexvoker build) and the illusionist, who gets permanent, concentrationless, morphable major images and later on Illusory Reality allowing you to do... potentially anything you want, really.


I have not heard of these build terms before. Could you give me a quick high-level of what these are?
Chronurgy is a wizard subclass from Explorer's Guide to Wildemount. Among others it gets Int to initiative and the ability to store spells into motes that they can hand to others too. Anyone can use the motes to cast said stored spells as an action, allowing for some weird and powerful interactions (like casting Leomund's tiny hut in combat, for example).

As for the nuclear wizard, it refers to a build using the Evoker school multiclassing with a level of Hexblade for Hexblade's Curse. Later augmentation with two fighter levels for Action Surge is optional but desirable. The build's signature is extremely high and nearly unavoidable nova through the combination of Hexblade's Curse, Empowered Evocation and upcasting magic missile, but it is otherwise still a high-level wizard build, only one level behind in spell progression (if you take fighter levels you'll probably grab them after you get 9ths), with all the shenanigans and versatility a high level wizard can bring to the table.

Here's a link to a full guide for one. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23998967&postcount=170)

[Burley]

I theory crafted a Warforged Paladin of Devotion and it really started to pop off at levels 10+. A heavy-armor melee fighter with a healing pool, dispel magic and +Cha to attack rolls? It's not flashy, but it's consistently good at what it does.

(I named it The Unit, and it talks in the third person: "This unit requires maintenance." And, it's coin operated, 'devoting' itself to whomever paid the daily fare.)

[Bobthewizard]

I have not heard of these build terms before. Could you give me a quick high-level of what these are?

Chronurgy (http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/wizard:chronurgy) is a subclass in Explorers Guide to Wildemount. It's level 10 ability is bonkers.

Nuclear wizard is a hexblade 1/ evocation wizard x that uses the RAW ruling that both empowered evocation and hexblade curse add to each magic missile, even if they target the same creature. So a 3rd level magic missile changes from 5d4+5 to 5d4+45. Most DMs won't allow it but some people say it is correct by RAW. Here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23998967&postcount=170)'s Ludic Savant's version.

[Burley]

Chronurgy (http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/wizard:chronurgy) is a subclass in Explorers Guide to Wildemount. It's level 10 ability is bonkers.

Nuclear wizard is a hexblade 1/ evocation wizard x that uses the RAW ruling that both empowered evocation and hexblade curse add to each magic missile, even if they target the same creature. So a 3rd level magic missile changes from 5d4+5 to 5d4+45. Most DMs won't allow it but some people say it is correct by RAW. Here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23998967&postcount=170)'s Ludic Savant's version.

Empowered Evocation says you can add Int to one damage roll of an evocation spell. So, that's only one of the missiles, not each, even if they hit simultaneously on one creature, its still (X) separate missiles.
Hexblade's Curse works, though. That's bonus damage on each missile. I'll hafta remember that one...

[J-H]

I believe the exploit comes from someone saying that you make one damage roll for all of the missiles and apply that roll equally to the damage from each. 1d4x5 + 5 vs 5d4+5, etc.

[Burley]

I believe the exploit comes from someone saying that you make one damage roll for all of the missiles and apply that roll equally to the damage from each. 1d4x5 + 5 vs 5d4+5, etc.

Is there a source for this interpretation? Because D&D is almost never a multiplication game.

[Gtdead]

Empowered Evocation says you can add Int to one damage roll of an evocation spell. So, that's only one of the missiles, not each, even if they hit simultaneously on one creature, its still (X) separate missiles.
Hexblade's Curse works, though. That's bonus damage on each missile. I'll hafta remember that one...

There is ambiguity on the spell. The most simple and most correct way to apply it is to roll once and use the damage on all magic missiles, exactly the way you would do for Fireball that has a lot of similarities with MM. Empowered Evocation applies to a single roll, so you do exactly that. It just so happens that all the magic missiles use the same roll. Sage Advice supports this reading.

This is in contrast to the wording of Scorching Ray, which forces you to make an attack roll for every ray.

[Psyren]

As an artificer starting in tier 3, you can instantly replicate stat boosting magic items (Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, Headband of Intellect) and you get access to more at 14. With the guarantee of those items, it opens up some interesting build options with stats that you wouldn't be able to do starting at level 1.

+1 to Artificer as a great T3 class. You have one of the best reactions in the game with Flash of Insight, and you'll have plenty of infusions to give out for your party members that are lacking decent magic items. If magic items are common in your campaign though the artificer's effect will be diluted somewhat (although you'll likely have the most attunement slots in the party by this point as well.)

[Spo]

These are all excellent and insightful ideas. I’m playing an artificer in my other game so it’s nice to see that he has potential.

Suggestions about warlocks is going to have me breaking open some books today.

Multi classing is allowed so please keep suggestions coming with that information in mind. I’m finding all these comments VERY interesting and helpful. Thanks!!!

[J-H]

What level do you expect to get to, and what do you expect to face? At 15, a Chain Pact Warlock can get Hold Monster at will against outsiders/elementals/etc. That's a lot of free 5th level castings, and when it hits, it's good for the rest of the party.

[KorvinStarmast]

Multi classing is allowed so please keep suggestions coming with that information in mind. I’m finding all these comments VERY interesting and helpful. Thanks! The Pseudo Paladin might appeal to you. You start at Fighter 5 Cleric 7. (Offers spells like Death Ward and Banishment, revivify, etc).
You have two attacks.
When you level up to 13 you can go to Fighter 6 or Cleric 8 for the ASI/Feat.
When you level to 14 you do the same again.
I'd suggest Battle Master for the flexibility the maneuvers offer.
Any old cleric will do, but I am partial to Life, Light, Arcana, and Grave.
Just make sure that one of your ASI, fighter or cleric, gets you Wisdom to 18 so that you start with 18 wisdom. (Yeah, you want the spells to land when you are debuffing the enemy or they need to make a save. A ranged cantrip like Toll the Dead is handy.
The vHuman build starts as F1, and I'd take Res Wisdom for the +1 Wis and Proficiency in the save. (You end up with proficiency in Str, Con, and Wis: a nice package).

[Gtdead]

Kudos to Chaos Jackal for at least mentioning Cleric!

It beats most vanilla builds at ranged DPR in T3 (yes really!), although he is a bit limited in range (60 ft fully effective range up to 150). Try a combination of Zombies throwing Magic stones and summon celestial upcasted to lvl 6. Action economy works out perfectly and it's extremely slot efficient. You are also left with a free action to do something, like a cantrip, dodge or hopefully activate items.

SG is still very relevant for closed spaces, divine word can trivialize even deadly++++ fights against the types of enemies where it's applicable and it scales with the difficulty of the encounter. Against an easy encounter it's not worth it. Against 10 pitfiends it's a no brainer.

Party wide immunity to fear thanks to heroes feast which takes away a very important feature of dragon's abilities.

You also get to play with different subclasses. Arcana may allow you to get Wish if you reach T4, Life becomes effectively immortal thanks to Disciple of Life Regenerate. Others too that I can't think about now. Or perhaps one more, Antimagic War Cleric. Counters all magic, gets resistance to non magical BPS. Anyone called for a Bearbarian? Still a lvl 17 build though :(.

#makeclericgreatagain

[Eldariel]

Well, the generic tier list is something like:
1. Wizard
2. Bard
3. Druid
4. Cleric
5. Warlock
6. Sorcerer
7. Paladin

With some subclasses leading to small shifts, but this is the point where Wizard casting begins overtaking other casters hard with Bards staying in the tow thanks to Magical Secrets. Wizard subclasses also have some awe-inspiring abilities on level 14: Convergent Future & Illusory Reality are particular standouts. No other class really comes close.

This is also where high power casting begins coming in making casters in general cleanly outstrip noncasters in terms of all roles. We have week-long Planar Bindings, an array of summons, Simulacrums, Magens, etc.

Barbarian & Monk are notable in that their offense doesn't evolve. Ranger too but they begin getting fairly nice spells so they kinda get away with it (not Full Caster-good but the next best thing). Rogues also kinda plateau, getting their last relevant ability in Reliable Talent and then scaling very little. Fighter is similar: level 11 is their last useful level before Tier 4 (barring few subclasses that get something neat on 15). This means that multiclass noncasters generally outstrip single-class and single-class casters generally outstrip multiclass.

Swords Bard finally gets to play a proper swordmage with buff spells out of Magical Secrets. Bladesinger too gets nice buffs with 2nd tier cantrips and 6th+ level buffs. Overall, if you wanna play a character who uses weapon attacks, it's hard to do better than those two.

Sorcadin finally begins to come online so if you want to try something like that, this is where it might work (though it's still decidedly a half-caster).

[J-H]

Monk defenses evolve with proficiency on all saves, which is pretty good, and barbarians become hard to kill. The zealot barbarian in my game is essentially impossible to kill via hit point damage unless it's some very large amount of damage all at once.

[Sigreid]

Haven't played it, but that's the tier where the drakewarden rangers look like they come into their own. Including being able to use their dragon as a flying mount.

[LudicSavant]

Empowered Evocation says you can add Int to one damage roll of an evocation spell.

Yep! And Magic Missile is one damage roll. (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/557820938402947072)


So, that's only one of the missiles, not each, even if they hit simultaneously on one creature, its still (X) separate missiles.

Conjure Barrage fires multiple missiles too, that doesn't mean you roll more than once for it.


Is there a source for this interpretation?

Yep! It's both in the Player's Handbook, and has been re-confirmed by the devs of the game every time someone's asked (as demonstrated in the link above).

It may seem intuitive to some to assume (with no source for that interpretation, I might note) that separate projectiles = separate rolls, but that's not actually a rule in the game. Quite the opposite, in fact. The rule in the book is that spells capable of hitting multiple creatures simultaneously roll once -- the number of targets/projectiles/whatever is irrelevant.

If you're wondering why Scorching Ray is different, it's because it follows the general rules for Attack rolls (which are sequential, not simultaneous). This means that it synergizes with different mechanics than Magic Missile does (for example, it'll work with Spirit Shroud, can critically hit, etc).

[Khrysaes]

With milticlassing,
2 paladin, 1 hexblade, and x bard or sorcerer you can have 5th level spells, smites, and cha to attack and damage. I would go bard over sorcerer, and drop hexblade if you want to start with the level 10 magical secrets and end with the 18th level ones. Less sad, better casting.

An 2 hexblade/10 illusion wizard gets medium armor, silent image at will in an invocation and another useful one. Can be done with 12 wizard too, with eldritch adept feat.

A mark of warding dwarf abjuration wizard with eldritch adept armor of shadows gets unlimited tho for their arcane ward and armor of agathys to be prickly. Can be 2 warlock/10 wizard too, hexbale again gives medium armor proficiency.

Mark of healing halfling, 1 life cleric/x wizard. A lot of new spells for the wizard with life cleric boost and heavy armor proficiency

2 tempest cleric / 10 scribe wizard. Can do LOTS of maximized lightning or thunder damage by combining the scribe 2 feature and tempest cleric 2 feature. Im not sure if its lighting or thunder of the top of my head.

2 stars druid/most casters, i lke arcane cleric. Gets the star buff to concentrationn, which is nice. I use ludic savants arcana cleric and mark of sentinel human as the base for this. Its in the eclectic build thread, first post.

Giftlock, also in that thread, celestial warlock + pact of chain +gift of everliving ones for lots of self healing.

4 fey ranger/8 samurai. I know you wont get the 11th level third attack, but you get some damage bonuses from fey ranger and the favored enemy option from tashas, and double your wisdom bonus to persuasion. If you take any thing to get you shalleleigh you can use your wisdom bonus to attack and hit. I think you can do the gunkata/bow builds of ludic savant in this too.

Gloomstalker ranger + shadow monk 6. Invisibility and teleportation in darkness.

Swords bard 8 hexblade 1 battlemaster 3. This is all about getting dice to use on short rests with cha based melee or bow attacks. You need pact of blade for bow. Needs 5 swords bard 3 battlemaster to get the dice on short rest. Rest to taste. If you can, the spelless ranger variant 2 from really old ua adds more.

Artificer 2 or 3/ bladesinger x. Bladesinging can be done with guns. Arti provides proficiency, arti 2 repeating weapons, arti 3 battlesmith for int to attack and damage. Can be done with pure wizard and the gun proficiency feat.


Peace cleric 6, Shepard druid 6. Summon durable summons and use peace cleric to swap them around and swarm bad guys.

[sithlordnergal]

I'd say T3 is where the Paladin/Sorcerer really shines the brightest. At this point you should have access to 3rd level Sorcerer spells, all of the Paladin auras you want, and access to a 5th level spell slot. You haven't quite reached the point where your spell casting out-preforms your melee attacks at this point, so you have a reason to use melee attacks, but you're not a slouch when it comes to casting.

[DigoDragon]

My only experience with any high level 5e characters that almost hit Tier 3 is bard and druid. I will echo those that say bard is fun at high level-- expertise, secrets, alternative uses for bardic inspiration, and a bunch of really interesting subclasses make it a class that you can play a few times and never feel it is too "samey".



Chronurgy is a wizard subclass from Explorer's Guide to Wildemount.

As for the nuclear wizard, it refers to a build using the Evoker school multiclassing with a level of Hexblade for Hexblade's Curse.

Thanks!

[Saelethil]

Battle Master 11/Swashbuckler x would be a a very fun character that should keep up pretty well. Not necessarily top tier but 3 attacks, a little sneak attack, a boosted initiative, expertise, and plenty of mobility should make you pretty potent. Assuming the game would be starting at 10 I would probably start at Fighter 7/Rogue 3 then bring Fighter up to 11 before finishing with Rogue.

[Kane0]

I'm not looking for "what is the most optimized mix" - but really I'm wondering about what classes really shine at this tier and which ones just don't hold interest in later levels. (Yes, multiclassing is allowed if you have some ideas on a fun mix.)

Besides no druids, I’ll add no monks bc I’ve played Open hand and shadow ones before and while they were fun, I want something different.

Again, I'm mostly interested in things like "Monks really come into their own in Tier 3" or "Barbarians don't really evolve, just more numbers, so Tier 3 isn't anything special" or "Bladesingers really can't keep up with weapon attacks, so a different wizard subclass will keep it's identity better" or "eldritch knight is finally firing on all gears at those levels". And all of the above is just made up samples - I'm looking for people with actual play experience at those levels for what they saw work well.


Ranger drops off significantly after Tier 2, but benefits greatly when paired with Rogue and makes for a great Tier 3 multiclass. If you can throw Tasha's optional features on top that just sweetens the deal further.

Tier 3 Artificers get their hands on Spell-Storing Item which is pretty amazing, especially on top of their other mid level infusions, flash of genius and extra attunement to make use of all the magic items you find/make getting there.

Pure warlocks get their third pact magic slot at level 11, which doesn't sound like much but at Tier 3 your pact slots are at their maximum auto-upcasting strength and you start picking up mystic arcanum on top of having enough invocations to really branch out.

[Slider Eclipse]

I would like to Second the suggestion for a Multiclass of Artificer and Bladesinger Wizard as they blend together rather nicely.

an Armorer 10/Bladesinger 2 with Mobile & Fey Touched can act as a very effective crowd control as you can very cleanly run up to a key target with your 50ft movement speed (or 100ft Movement with the Tabaxi's Feline Agility Trait) and then Booming Blade them and retreat away from your squishier casters with the help of either Misty Step or Boots of the Winding Path .

Or an Artillerist/Bladesinger can run a strong support role using there Turrets and Cure Wounds to keep the party healthy, while providing the ever helpful Haste and still deal plenty of damage with a Repeating Firearm or Returning Thrown Weapon in one hand and a Staff or Wand with your Arcane Firearm Feature in the other.

Battlesmith is also a very solid option if you want a more paladin-y feel and a bonus pet as you can just pick up almost any martial playstyle and get the full effects of your Bladesinger features while also having full power in your weapon modifier. Bonus Points if you want to play as a Small Race as you could then mount your Steel Defender and charge into battle with a Lance. Only part of Bladesong you'd lose out on would be the Movement Bonus but the Steel Defender starts with 40ft movement anyway and makes a really good mount thanks to it's Reaction synergizing with Mounted Combatant to make you both borderline impossible to hit with anything that doesn't use a save.

[DigoDragon]

Yep! It's both in the Player's Handbook, and has been re-confirmed by the devs of the game every time someone's asked (as demonstrated in the link above).

It may seem intuitive to some to assume (with no source for that interpretation, I might note) that separate projectiles = separate rolls, but that's not actually a rule in the game. Quite the opposite, in fact. The rule in the book is that spells capable of hitting multiple creatures simultaneously roll once -- the number of targets/projectiles/whatever is irrelevant.

That's weird to me, but I guess if that's what the devs intended, then ok. This does mean that my spellcaster only needs to make one concentration check if they're struck by multiple missiles though. :3

[nickl_2000]

That's weird to me, but I guess if that's what the devs intended, then ok. This does mean that my spellcaster only needs to make one concentration check if they're struck by multiple missiles though. :3

Except with the damage being the total damage done to you instead of the damage from each missile.

[diplomancer]

Tier 3 is when a Sorcadin comes really online, at Pal 6/Sorc 5. Your next level will be either Pal or Sorc depending on Paladin subclass, and the rest will be Sorc. A Conquest Paladin 7/Sorc X is a force to be reckoned with.

Illusionists also love tier 3. Get enough downtime and Major Image at 6th level allows for very nice shenanigans, as does Seeming (this one without downtime, just cast it and wreack havoc with your party).

Bards have the good option of not being a Lore Bard and still getting sweet magical secrets without waiting for what it feels like a lifetime.

Coffelocks, if your DM allows them, it goes without saying, are also very happy here. At Warlock 2/Sorc 9 they are already at infinite spell slots at the maximum level they can get. Get one more level of Warlock to double your conversion efficiency, and the rest is up to you (remember, Coffelocks can't get back spell slots of level 6th and higher, at least not without taking a Long Rest and losing all thr slots they've accumulated so far, so you're probably better off not getting them at all. If you want to gish, maybe go to Paladin 2 for infinite smites, or just keep progressing as Warlock with Pact of the Blade).

Paladin is a solid single-class at this point, as are all casters; Warlocks have so many different options here that you can go basically in any direction you want.

I don't have experience with other classes at that level apart from those.

[Burley]

There is ambiguity on the spell. The most simple and most correct way to apply it is to roll once and use the damage on all magic missiles, exactly the way you would do for Fireball that has a lot of similarities with MM. Empowered Evocation applies to a single roll, so you do exactly that. It just so happens that all the magic missiles use the same roll. Sage Advice supports this reading.

This is in contrast to the wording of Scorching Ray, which forces you to make an attack roll for every ray.

So, MM and SR, as examples: They have different rules for attacks rolls (one has them and one doesn't), but I don't see why that would change how damage rolls work. The spell specifically says they're separate missiles, so you should roll separate damage.

But, I'm not trying to derail with a debate. Just... Sage Advice says some silly things sometimes and then says "I dunno, y'all. I didn't make the game, I just make sweeping rulings without much thought." Paraphrasing, of course.

[LudicSavant]

So, MM and SR, as examples: They have different rules for attacks rolls (one has them and one doesn't), but I don't see why that would change how damage rolls work.

That's just what folks have been saying, it doesn't change how damage rolls work.

The rule for damaging Attack rolls is that they resolve sequentially, and you make a damage roll for each successful Attack.

The rule for spells that can damage multiple creatures simultaneously is that you make one damage roll.

There is no "separate missiles, therefore separate damage rolls" rule.

[Gtdead]

So, MM and SR, as examples: They have different rules for attacks rolls (one has them and one doesn't), but I don't see why that would change how damage rolls work. The spell specifically says they're separate missiles, so you should roll separate damage.

But, I'm not trying to derail with a debate. Just... Sage Advice says some silly things sometimes and then says "I dunno, y'all. I didn't make the game, I just make sweeping rulings without much thought." Paraphrasing, of course.

I get that it's confusing, so I will try to explain.

This is the rule for spell damage rolls.:

"If a spell or other Effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a Wizard casts Fireball or a Cleric casts Flame Strike, the spell’s damage is rolled once for all Creatures caught in the blast."

With a natural reading, you can argue that since MM is used to attack only one target, then it doesn't follow the rule. However it doesn't work that way, because if it did it would bypass all restrictions for twinning. It doesn't matter how you use the spell, it matters if it's capable of affecting more than one targets. So since MM is capable of affecting more than 1 target, you roll once, and you apply that result to any target you affect. This has been confirmed again and again by sage advice. Otherwise it completely breaks all the erratas and the rules that control twin spell.

Scorching Ray is also a spell that affects multiple targets. Why don't we do the same? Because the spell says so. It directly contradicts the rule, and since specific beats general, then we have to apply the ability to one damage roll.

Another case would be Chain Lightning. If you have abilities like Empowered Evocation, CL deals the same dice+mod damage to every target, even if it's described as multiple lightning bolts. If you could use CL to attack the same target, the same thing as MM would apply because it's a single roll.

[KorvinStarmast]

There is no "separate missiles, therefore separate damage rolls" rule. I am not sure that's right, given that you can direct each of the three to a different target. But I think it might be best not to digress into a MM thread, I believe we have a few well subscribed ones.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Just to get back to the OP, our experience has been that martials do stay viable through the end of tier 3. The one caveat I'd add is that the limiting factor is magic and our DM's (myself included) make sure the martials have the magic they need to shine. A martial with winged boots and a great magic weapon is going to be able to get where they need to go and lead in single target damage. If not they could have problems, so I'd definitely be aware of magic availability before making a choice here.

[LudicSavant]

I am not sure that's right, given that you can direct each of the three to a different target

Given that you can direct each of the three to a different target, you follow the rule on page 196 of the PHB, where it establishes how damage rolls work.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/841980415115919381/916470732094079106/unknown.png

I can assure you, there is not some hidden other rule that says "except if the spell or effect launches separate projectiles, then you roll multiple times."

[BullyWog]

Just plain evoker is great if you want to blow things up. Level 10 you get to add int modifier to evocation damage and at 14 you can overchannel for max damage

[dmartin3d]

There is ambiguity on the spell. The most simple and most correct way to apply it is to roll once and use the damage on all magic missiles, exactly the way you would do for Fireball that has a lot of similarities with MM. Empowered Evocation applies to a single roll, so you do exactly that. It just so happens that all the magic missiles use the same roll. Sage Advice supports this reading.

This is in contrast to the wording of Scorching Ray, which forces you to make an attack roll for every ray.

You are correct. Here is the relevant tweet that supports your interpretation:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/magic-missile-3-bolts/

[kingcheesepants]

That's weird to me, but I guess if that's what the devs intended, then ok. This does mean that my spellcaster only needs to make one concentration check if they're struck by multiple missiles though. :3

That's right only one concentration check. Now granted if you were hit by a Hexvokers upcasted magic missile it would be like a minimum DC 30 check but you only need to make it once, maybe with max constitution, the paladin giving you his aura, and a few items and spells that boost your saves it might even be possible to make that check.

In response to the OP. I played a Divination Wizard in a tier 3 game and it was super fun (for the most part, I'll get into it later). Wizard really comes into its own at that point, with things like long term summons, wall of force, and soon simulacrum and clone and such.

The main thing about high level wizards though is that they can very easily break a game especially if the DM isn't used to playing at higher levels. Talk to your DM if you plan to play a high level wizard because otherwise you may find the DM unprepared and unable to challenge you adequately which will lead to things like invisible counterspellers and anti magic fields all over the place and having to go on adventures in planes where magic doesn't work right and super beings that just paralyze anyone who uses a spell in their domain. It may sound like I'm exaggerating but these are all things that my DM threw at us because otherwise my character would have just cast teleport or dominate person or something and immediately solved the problem. Was this a good solution on the DMs part? No I don't think so. Those sessions felt super contrived and antagonistic against me specifically and it was only because we'd been playing for over a year at that point that I didn't just leave right then and there. But I understood where he was coming from and that he didn't want me to just bypass and solve every problem with a single spell and we had to work together to find ways to have adventures that could stand up to high level magic.

[diplomancer]

Trying to get the thread back on topic:

If I were starting at tier 3, even though there are plenty of good single-class characters, I'd definitely try a relatively "deep" multiclass (i.e, not a dip), like the previously mentioned Sorcadin. The main drawback of those multiclasses is exactly the time it takes for them to come online, so to speak; so being able to skip that time and just enjoy the multiclass would be a considerable incentive.

[Hael]

Tier3 is full caster land and gish/ multiclass land. The martials all fall off with the exception of the paladin to some extent.

This is where classes like the sorcerer really jump up the rankings and start to shine. Meanwhile top tier 1-2 casters like the cleric start to fall off a bit relatively speaking (still strong but not the best in the game anymore). Id say even the artificer falls off here (b/c its so strong in tier2 relatively speaking).

In tier 4 the relative positions mostly stay the same, its just the disparity between casters and even gishes starts to grow.

[Ogre Mage]

I only have modest experience playing in Tier 3, but in general bards, clerics, druids, paladins and wizards are very strong in Tier 3.

I have some thoughts about the subclasses in Tasha's, but this is theorycrafting. I have not played or seen any of these subclasses in play at Tier 3.

The aberrant mind and clockwork soul sorcerers look like they would be very strong as primary classes in Tier 3. The large number of bonus spells known in combination with metamagic suggest a sorcerer who has both breadth and depth.

The warlock is often dinged as a mediocre class for single-class characters (at least in Tier 2+), but a single-class genie warlock looks like it could hang in Tier 3. The limited wish ability you get at level 14 is very good.

Of course, the sorlock (Sorcerer X/Warlock 2-3) has long been a powerful multiclass. An aberrant mind or clockwork soul sorcerer 9-10 / hexblade 2-3 would unquestionably be a strong character in Tier 3.

[loki_ragnarock]

For level 12?

Paladin 2/ Bard 10

Swords Bard (easier version) or Valor Bard (harder version)

The Bardadin is pretty great; two attacks, a plethora of spell slots to turn into damage, 4 skill expertise, heavy armor, and starting with magical secrets. Normally the rub for this multiclass is that it doesn't get extra attack until level 8, but you've leap frogged over those dragging levels into the area where things are mostly just fun.

Doing it as a Sword's Bard is the easiest version; it lets you use weapons as a spellcasting focus, and though both benefit from warcaster, the Sword Bard will be fully spell ready while using sword and board. Combined with defensive flourish, you can also get a fairly astronomical AC, and - should you wish it - you can grab Shield as one of your magical secrets, and you can concentrate on Shield of Faith from your paladin levels, and you can take the Defensive fighting style as a Paladin while picking up Dueling through Sword Bard. The result? An AC in the low thirties when you need it; call this guy Sherman, because he's a tank!
Of course, no tank is complete without a cannon; paladin smite and two attacks with dueling style takes care of that perfectly well. At level 16 you get the benefit of having a flourish every round without touching your inspiration pool, so there's no reason not to go hog wild while saving your inspiration for helping people's saving throws; you got something to look forward to in the future- roughly simulating the saving throw aura of a standard paladin - but the basics of what you need are all there to start at level 12.
And you have skills, so you function outside of combat like a boss. Or double down with Athletics expertise and a Magical Secrets Enlarge/Reduce so you can mock the barbarian for not being able to grapple the adult dragon.

It's highly flexible, and solves the only two weaknesses that bards really have; dealing damage and being squishy. Generally more rounded than a Sorcadin, too.

You can also go Valor Bard, which mostly isn't as good as a in your face fighty type, but still pretty darned good at it, able to pump his AC into the mid/high twenties fairly easily. We're still waiting for his level 14 ability to come online at this point, but once he hits level 16 there's nothing stopping him from casting Blade Ward and smiting in the same round, or Vicious Mockery and smiting in the same round to get a not insubstantial at will defensive boost. Or throwing a control spell and smiting in the same turn.
It's not as glamorous as Swords Bard, and a little more complicated, but it's final ability has potential to make a very flexible combatant, indeed.

And should your party *really* want/need that saving throw bonus aura, after level sixteen you are free to drop levels into paladin to get it come level 20, letting you potentially add +5 +1d10 to your party's saves. It's less exciting than going straight bard, but even epic level enemies will have some difficulty consistently throwing effects on your party at that point.

Anyway, tier 3 is when this combination really starts to come alive. It is the sweet spot.

[sambojin]

I know you said no druids, but what about a Clockwork Sorcerer 9/ Land (grasslands) Druid 3?

+10 sorcerer spells known, +2 druid spells, totally modifiable list of lvl1/2 druid spells, more find familiar than you can shake a stick at, still has 2xlvl5 + 1xlvl6 spell slot (so you or a friend can ride around on a dragon for half the day), quite a lot of other summoning and utility, enough metamagic that you can alter those druid lvl2 slots into something useful (flaming sphere is good as another element), a couple of levels of natural recovery for more free slots, a touch of ritual casting if you have those spells prepared, and a bit of wildshape utility for exploration and hiding.

It's a bit MAD due to needing 13-14Wis, but you probably shouldn't be relying on AC for defence too much by this level anyway, you've got Con proficiency from Sorc (so a free ASI up your sleeve), and just so much more flexibility than a normal Sorc would have by this level it's amazing.

I'd suggest Wildfire Druid 3 instead of Land 3, because who doesn't like teleports on their list of things they can do?, but it might be a bit too good (or boring, if you've just played a WF druid recently).

Should play like a sorcerer, just without the traps or pitfalls, and tonnes more campaign flexibility if you don't know what you'll be facing. Which in tier 3, you often won't, and might need to bounce between combat/ social/ exploration roles a bit regardless.

[Zuras]

As far as classes I personally played/DMed for:
Fighter is amazing in Tier 3. Easily the most single target damage of any class over multiple encounters, and plenty of ASIs for interesting feats.
Paladins, Celestial and Hexblade warlocks, Rogues and Clerics are all quite solid.

Clerics can feel same-y if you played one all the way through to Tier 3, since their high level spells are pretty meh, but if you’re starting at 12, that’s not an issue.

Really, only Barbarians and Rangers seemed to feel “stuck” in T3, and Rangers have lots of multi-classing options. Since you’re starting at 12, there are lots of multi class splits that work since you skip all the awkward levels before they come on-line. Definitely recommend checking out the pseudo-Paladin builds, especially a Ranger/Cleric or EK/Cleric.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

This might depend on a DM ruling, but there's a school of thought that Bladesinger Extra Attack stacks with EK War Magic, so BS 6/ EK 7 starts to look pretty good once you're past all the levels to get it online.

[LudicSavant]

Again, I'm mostly interested in things like "Monks really come into their own in Tier 3" or "Barbarians don't really evolve, just more numbers, so Tier 3 isn't anything special" or "Bladesingers really can't keep up with weapon attacks, so a different wizard subclass will keep it's identity better" or "eldritch knight is finally firing on all gears at those levels". And all of the above is just made up samples - I'm looking for people with actual play experience at those levels for what they saw work well.

Thank you for your attention in this request.

Multiclassing starts to look attractive to the likes of Eldritch Knights and Battle Masters after level 11 or 12. Yeah, they get another extra attack at level 20, and only level 20, but... geez, that's a long ways away, and you'll have it for only 1 level (by contrast, casters will have level 9 spells for four levels). A few of the later Fighter subclasses have better excuses to stick around in their class for longer, but the PHB ones are topheavy.

The Barbarian kinda starts forgetting to scale their damage and options around here, sadly. Also, as you face higher and higher level foes, they're more and more likely to have access to options that get around Rage defenses (e.g. stuff that isn't just walking up to you and bopping you in the face with B/P/S damage).

Tier 3 is when casters start getting their Conspicuously Big Guns, the biggest of which is of course Simulacrum, which ranges from "absolutely broken" by RAW to "merely the best spell in the game" if you use the dev-stated RAI restrictions. This spell basically allows you to turn gold and time into spell slots and action economy and other resources at a rate that is frankly a complete steal.

Even without that, there's other things coming on like Summon Celestial (which hits as hard as a decent-but-not-super-optimal martial all on its own, on top of the rest of your action economy), Contingency (which can use a slot from last week, action economy free), Crown of Stars, Forcecage, Wall of Force, and so much more. And no shortage of powerful class and subclass features, either.

Bards start picking up their Magical Secrets, and can steal any of those big tricks for themselves (including Simulacrum and Contingency).

Sorcerers start slowing down their spell progression for some reason (seriously, they get 11 spells known over their first 10 levels, and only 4 spells known over their last 10 levels) just as the Wizard's starting to pick up steam in a big way.


Just plain evoker is great if you want to blow things up. Level 10 you get to add int modifier to evocation damage and at 14 you can overchannel for max damage

Agreed. Also, Tier 3 Evoker's good not just for blowing things up, but control too -- you can do some very interesting things with Sculpted Sickening Radiance, Sculpted Wall of Stone, Sculpted Wall of Ice, etc. Even Sculpted Fireball means you can make tactical party formations work that normally wouldn't. Evocation isn't just the school of Fireball, it's the school of walls, too.

And it's just gotten better and better with supplements. For example, the new ice spell in Fizban's is especially powerful with Sculpt Spells.

[Corey]

I just put together a Paladin 6/Hexblade 1/Echo Knight 3 for a West Marches server where I was allowed to start a character at Level 10.

The Paladin inherently gets 2 attacks. The Echo Knight adds a third one, plus the occasional Action Surge. Hexblade doubles crit chance, which is nice for Paladins, and keeps the STR requirement down to 13.

Hexblade and Echo Knight do conflict in their desire to use bonus actions, and having lowish STR detracts from what otherwise might be nice potential as a grappler (including giving opponents disadvantage on Strength checks). But the damage and survivability have been pretty nice.

With that start, there are a lot of ways to go. Sorcerer for spell slots would be an obvious choice; also, even 1 level of Sorcerer could give Shield and so on. Another level of Fighter gives an ASI. Another level of Warlock gives a couple of invocations. Etc.

I'm not sure which Paladin subclass would be best. I took Devotion, but I'm not in love with it.

[Khrysaes]

I just put together a Paladin 6/Hexblade 1/Echo Knight 3 for a West Marches server where I was allowed to start a character at Level 10.

The Paladin inherently gets 2 attacks. The Echo Knight adds a third one, plus the occasional Action Surge. Hexblade doubles crit chance, which is nice for Paladins, and keeps the STR requirement down to 13.

Hexblade and Echo Knight do conflict in their desire to use bonus actions, and having lowish STR detracts from what otherwise might be nice potential as a grappler (including giving opponents disadvantage on Strength checks). But the damage and survivability have been pretty nice.

With that start, there are a lot of ways to go. Sorcerer for spell slots would be an obvious choice; also, even 1 level of Sorcerer could give Shield and so on. Another level of Fighter gives an ASI. Another level of Warlock gives a couple of invocations. Etc.

I'm not sure which Paladin subclass would be best. I took Devotion, but I'm not in love with it.

Anciencts is pretty good.

Also, why 13? you would need 15 if you want the heavier armor. If you don't then its fine.

[Dork_Forge]

Anciencts is pretty good.

Also, why 13? you would need 15 if you want the heavier armor. If you don't then its fine.

You need a Str 13 to MC a Paladin.

[Khrysaes]

You need a Str 13 to MC a Paladin.

Right, but i meant why 13 instead 15, the requirement for fullplate or some other heavy armor.

[KorvinStarmast]

Yeah, they get another extra attack at level 20, and only level 20, but... geez, that's a long ways away, and you'll have it for only 1 level (by contrast, casters will have level 9 spells for four levels). It makes more sense to me for that fourth attack to arrive at the beginning of Tier 4: Level 17. The other two show up at the beginning of a Tier. (5:2 atks; 11:3 atks)


Tier 3 is when casters start getting their Conspicuously Big Guns, the biggest of which is of course Simulacrum, which ranges from "absolutely broken" by RAW to "merely the best spell in the game" if you use the dev-stated RAI restrictions. This spell basically allows you to turn gold and time into spell slots and action economy and other resources at a rate that is frankly a complete steal. One failed save on a Tier 3 monsters AoE spell, breath weapon, or AoE special ability the sim often drops. It's truly a glass cannon, but while it's up and running, yes, it's quite an asset.

Bards start picking up their Magical Secrets, and can steal any of those big tricks for themselves (including Simulacrum and Contingency).
Yep, and we love them, Precious. :smallbiggrin: