Advice for Fighter (BM) Crossbow build

[Aeoulus]

Is it more optimized to go 20 fighter or to get 3 gloomstalker?

For higher levels do you keep using hand crossbow?

[Aeoulus]

As well, for feats after getting cbe and ss are there any that are especially useful? I was thinking lucky

[Mastikator]

3 levels of warlock (hexblade) for hex, improved pact weapon (unless dm lets you have magic weapon of your choice) lets you add proficiency bonus and 1d6 necrotic damage to every attack. Assuming no magic weapon and IPW handcrossbow:
+9 to hit, 2d6 + 22 damage, x6 first turn, x7 second turn, x4 third turn = 493 total damage/3 turns (assuming you cast hex and action surge first 2 turns)
not accounting for crits (but you can and should be half elf, take elven accuracy in charisma! with ~27% chance to crit per attack)
against AC 10, 492 damage first 3 rounds
against AC 16, 471 damage
against AC 22, 357 damage

If your DM allows it then you should also use the subclass echo knight, unleash incarnate would let you do 4 additional attacks in the first 2 turns assuming 18 con, damage per 3 rounds would then be

against AC 10, 608 damage first 3 rounds
against AC 16, 582 damage
against AC 22, 441 damage

pretty good nova damage, just for fun against a tarrasque (ac 25, hp 676) assuming someone else is tanking/being eaten alive it would 8 turns without sharpshooter and 10 turns with to solo it. And only 49 bolts lol

[Aeoulus]

3 levels of warlock (hexblade) for hex, improved pact weapon (unless dm lets you have magic weapon of your choice) lets you add proficiency bonus and 1d6 necrotic damage to every attack. Assuming no magic weapon and IPW handcrossbow:
+9 to hit, 2d6 + 22 damage, x6 first turn, x7 second turn, x4 third turn = 493 total damage/3 turns (assuming you cast hex and action surge first 2 turns)
not accounting for crits (but you can and should be half elf, take elven accuracy in charisma! with ~27% chance to crit per attack)
against AC 10, 492 damage first 3 rounds
against AC 16, 471 damage
against AC 22, 357 damage

If your DM allows it then you should also use the subclass echo knight, unleash incarnate would let you do 4 additional attacks in the first 2 turns assuming 18 con, damage per 3 rounds would then be

against AC 10, 608 damage first 3 rounds
against AC 16, 582 damage
against AC 22, 441 damage

pretty good nova damage, just for fun against a tarrasque (ac 25, hp 676) assuming someone else is tanking/being eaten alive it would 8 turns without sharpshooter and 10 turns with to solo it. And only 49 bolts lol

For IPW, you can only get this on the hand crossbow if it's magical right?

[Burley]

Technically, your pact weapon is created by your Pact of the Blade feature. If you want to make an existing weapon into your pact weapon, yes, it must be a magical weapon.

Improved Pact Weapon gives the bonus to attack/damage and allows you to have a non-melee pact weapon.
HOWEVER! It does specifically omit Hand Crossbow from possible non-melee weapons: "Finally, the weapon you conjure can be a shortbow, longbow, light crossbow, or heavy crossbow."
I'm assuming it's because the Hand Crossbow is a light weapon and they don't want you dual-wielding with pact weapons, but I dunno the minds of the designers.

[Mastikator]

For IPW, you can only get this on the hand crossbow if it's magical right?

With IPW you make your own +1 magical weapon and it automatically becomes your hexblade pact weapon. Another important bit is that it's a magic weapon that you don't have to attune to. So you can have 3 other magic items attuned plus your magic weapon of your choice. What's funny is that if you replace sharpshooter with gwm and crossbow master with tough or whatever it's an equally viable melee build

With point buy half elf (+2 charisma, +1 dex, +1 con) Starting abilities
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 8
WIS 12
CHA 17

ASIs
Fighter 4 => elven accuracy (+1 charisma, super advantage on charisma)
Fighter 6 => +2 charisma
Fighter 8 => sharpshooter
Fighter 12 => crossbow master
Fighter 14 => +2 con
Fighter 16 => +2 con or a feat, like lucky

Final stats
STR 8
DEX 14
CON 18/20
INT 8
WIS 12
CHA 20

[Burley]

With IPW you make your own +1 magical weapon and it automatically becomes your hexblade pact weapon. Another important bit is that it's a magic weapon that you don't have to attune to. So you can have 3 other magic items attuned plus your magic weapon of your choice. What's funny is that if you replace sharpshooter with gwm and crossbow master with tough or whatever it's an equally viable melee build


You may be taking some leaps with logic here, so, can I clarify?
Pact Weapon lets you summon and store a weapon in hammer-space. It doesn't supersede normal magic weapon attunement rules. If you're using a magic weapon and also made it your pact weapon, you'd still need to be attuned to it to benefit from the magic weapon's magic properties. But, you could still benefit from the Pact Weapon bonuses without attuning to the weapon. (But, you already went through all the rituals to make it a pact weapon, so, you're prolly gonna attune to it, anyway?)

Also, I'll repeat that you can't use a Hand Crossbow, at all, as your Pact Weapon.

[Aeoulus]

So potentially a 1 dip into hexblade for hex and curse benefits

Or 3 into hex and use 2handed magic crossbow for ipw?

[Gtdead]

The hexblade dip is something that I have theorycrafted too and looks potent. A straightforward way to do it is to get the 3rd attack and then transition into hexblade, using the superior advantage generation abilities of warlock in combination with elven accuracy. It's an interesting way to increase the versatility of the character too.

Another idea for low magic settings that reach lower levels would be a forge cleric dip, allowing the fighter to get a good concentration ablity (bless) that can be activated with action surge, and give him a +1 weapon. You can dip at lvl 6 or 7

And lastly, the gloomstalker dip for extra attack in the first turn which can generate advantage too, although it's a bit less reliable than hexblade.

[Mastikator]

You may be taking some leaps with logic here, so, can I clarify?
Pact Weapon lets you summon and store a weapon in hammer-space. It doesn't supersede normal magic weapon attunement rules. If you're using a magic weapon and also made it your pact weapon, you'd still need to be attuned to it to benefit from the magic weapon's magic properties. But, you could still benefit from the Pact Weapon bonuses without attuning to the weapon. (But, you already went through all the rituals to make it a pact weapon, so, you're prolly gonna attune to it, anyway?)

Also, I'll repeat that you can't use a Hand Crossbow, at all, as your Pact Weapon.

Pact weapon:
"You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it. You are proficient with it while you wield it. This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage."

No ritual. You make a weapon from nothing.

I think you may be confusing it with this:

"You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest."
You take an existing magic weapon and turn it into your pact weapon via ritual. But we're not doing that.

IPW:
"[...]

In addition, the weapon gains a +1 bonus to its attack and damage rolls, unless it is a magic weapon that already has a bonus to those rolls."

We're not using a magic weapon that already has a +1, we're making a weapon that counts as a +1. Doesn't say you auto-attune to it or anything, but we benefit from it as if it was a +1. So it's attunement free +1 any-weapon that you just make as an action. Another way of looking at it is concentration free always active magic weapon on any mundane weapon.

[Catullus64]

Of the two options put forth in the original post, I would say that the three-level foray into Gloom Stalker offers more. The high-level Fighter benefits you're giving up are just that: very high level, and thus only relevant to a small slice of your playtime.

Depending on the exact starting level, I might even suggest starting as a Ranger; more skill proficiencies, and I consider Dexterity saves better than Constitution on a non-primary caster, particularly a shooting-focused character. If you're Dex-focused, then you won't miss Heavy Armor proficiency.

I say this assuming at least a moderate starting level, because otherwise you're delaying access to Extra Attack by a fair bit. But a Gloom Stalker ranger, with lots of damage kickers and Crossbow Expert, will still be doing handsome damage without it.

Consult with your DM about how strictly they run the interactions between the rules on a Hand Crossbow, specifically the need for a free hand to load it. Depending on the DM's position, the best loadout may be Heavy Crossbow + Hand Crossbow, Two Hand Crossbows, Single Hand Crossbow, Or Hand Crossbow + Sword. If your DM is going to be tight on Rules-as-written, and you can't afford a large bandolier of Hand Crossbows, then single Hand Crossbow is your best bet.

[Aeoulus]

Pact weapon:
"You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it. You are proficient with it while you wield it. This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage."

No ritual. You make a weapon from nothing.

.

But it has to be a melee weapon then, right?

[stoutstien]

Is it more optimized to go 20 fighter or to get 3 gloomstalker?

For higher levels do you keep using hand crossbow?

Depends on end point in the campaign and speed of progression really. Fighter is solid until after the third attack comes online but is hit or miss depending on subclass until the 4th attack at 20. Battle Master especially has a fairly sharp diminishing returns as you gain more maneuvers but always ones you didn't already pick.

The hand crossbow is probably the best option if you are trying to leverage SS with as many attacks as possible to off set the attack penalty so you really have a bunch of ways to do that.

-find a way to generate advantage.
-dip forge cleric or artificer for magical weapon attack bonuses.
-more attacks. Gloom stalker, hunter, or sticking it out with fighter all have pro/cons.

[Burley]

Pact weapon:
"You can use your action to create a pact weapon in your empty hand. You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it. You are proficient with it while you wield it. This weapon counts as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage."

No ritual. You make a weapon from nothing.

I think you may be confusing it with this:

"You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon. You perform the ritual over the course of 1 hour, which can be done during a short rest."
You take an existing magic weapon and turn it into your pact weapon via ritual. But we're not doing that.

IPW:
"[...]

In addition, the weapon gains a +1 bonus to its attack and damage rolls, unless it is a magic weapon that already has a bonus to those rolls."

We're not using a magic weapon that already has a +1, we're making a weapon that counts as a +1. Doesn't say you auto-attune to it or anything, but we benefit from it as if it was a +1. So it's attunement free +1 any-weapon that you just make as an action. Another way of looking at it is concentration free always active magic weapon on any mundane weapon.

We're saying the same thing. I was just trying to fill in a couple gaps from your first description that the OP had more questions about.


But it has to be a melee weapon then, right?

Your original pact blade must be a melee weapon. If you take Improved Pact Weapon, you can also have a light crossbow, heavy crossbow, shortbow or longbow.

You can never have a hand crossbow as your Pact Weapon. It's not melee and it's not one of the 4 bows allowed. You also can't have a javelin or a boomerang or bolas or a net.

[Gurgeh]

Javelins are melee weapons with the thrown property, so they'd be okay, surely?

[quindraco]

Is it more optimized to go 20 fighter or to get 3 gloomstalker?

For higher levels do you keep using hand crossbow?

If your goal is maximum alpha strike damage, the usual formula is battle master 11/gloom stalker 3/assassin 3, and the final 3 levels are spent based on how much you want ASIs vs other benefits (like gloom stalker 5 for the spells, for example).

As for your other question, elven accuracy is a good one if you're an elf and have a plan for gaining advantage. If you're not, Resilient Dexterity is often good, but also Skill Expert can be amazing on anyone. And these are stackable - if you start with Dex 17, Elven Accuracy + Resilient Dexterity + Skill Expert (Dexterity) will get you Dex 20 plus side benefits. If you're an Assassin, Alert is basically mandatory eventually, as you need to ensure you go first.

[Sherlockpwns]

If you don’t want to do the standard crossbow expert / SS route, artificer 2 lets you go heavy crossbow and still have a shield. You give up the bonus attack, but if you go to artificer 3 (or 4 for the asi) you can also get a bonus action cannon with artillerist. While not quite as good as SS, you are still talking 1d10+stat with +3 to hit followed by whichever cannon ability you bring in as a bonus. It won’t be that far behind even if it looks less potent on paper.

The heavy crossbow does a base of 2 dmg extra and if you put the extra ASI into dex you are looking at 7 less damage vs SS but +6 better to-hit (+7 vs a non artificer assuming no magic crossbows). That difference in to-hit rolls will make you super consistent, especially with archery tacked on.

You still need crossbow expert at level 4/your first asi. Long as it happens before multi-attack you are fine.

How you split it can vary heavily.

Otherwise everyone and their mother at some point runs a hand crossbow SS/xbert. What you add to it hardly matters, it’s a top tier choice. However I’d say skip gloomstalker. The sooner you reach level 11 the better if your goal is purely damage related. A third d6+15 is a huge opportunity.

If the concern is what to do AFTER 11, it depends on the stat array and race imo. Fighter gets all those ASIs, so if you need them (because level 4 and 6 went to crossbow feats) the stat bonuses to hit will be very important for sharpshooter. Otherwise there are a ton of handy feats that you’ll miss out on or delay by going gloom. I just don’t think Gloom adds that much. The d4 on hit from ranger sometimes.. the opening salvo. That’s about it. I don’t think hunter mark mixes that well with SS, since you are gaining up an attack and have a lower than normal hit chance to begin with. Spells are always handy to have but if I were picking between 3 fighter levels between 11-20 or glooms benefit, I take 3 fighter every time.

[sithlordnergal]

Your original pact blade must be a melee weapon. If you take Improved Pact Weapon, you can also have a light crossbow, heavy crossbow, shortbow or longbow.

You can never have a hand crossbow as your Pact Weapon. It's not melee and it's not one of the 4 bows allowed. You also can't have a javelin or a boomerang or bolas or a net.

Pretty much this. You're somewhat limited with your pact weapon, and it is a major downside. The only way to get around it is with this clause in Pact of the Blade, "You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual while you hold the weapon."

So you'd need a magical hand crossbow to do it. Or you could be like me and get yourself a magical pistol via the Ild Rune. >w>

[Khrysaes]

We're saying the same thing. I was just trying to fill in a couple gaps from your first description that the OP had more questions about.



Your original pact blade must be a melee weapon. If you take Improved Pact Weapon, you can also have a light crossbow, heavy crossbow, shortbow or longbow.

You can never have a hand crossbow as your Pact Weapon. It's not melee and it's not one of the 4 bows allowed. You also can't have a javelin or a boomerang or bolas or a net.

This isnt strictly accurate. Pact weapon can only create melee weapons. Ipw can create ranged weapons from the specific list. When you summon it you choose the form it takes

However, if you have a magical ranged weapon outside that list, like a hand crossbow, then even without ipw you can turn it into the pact weapon via a one hour ritual. Doing this means your pact weapon is ALWAYS that magic weapon and you no longer choose the form upon summoning it.

[Keravath]

If you don’t want to do the standard crossbow expert / SS route, artificer 2 lets you go heavy crossbow and still have a shield. You give up the bonus attack, but if you go to artificer 3 (or 4 for the asi) you can also get a bonus action cannon with artillerist. While not quite as good as SS, you are still talking 1d10+stat with +3 to hit followed by whichever cannon ability you bring in as a bonus. It won’t be that far behind even if it looks less potent on paper.

The heavy crossbow does a base of 2 dmg extra and if you put the extra ASI into dex you are looking at 7 less damage vs SS but +6 better to-hit (+7 vs a non artificer assuming no magic crossbows). That difference in to-hit rolls will make you super consistent, especially with archery tacked on.

You still need crossbow expert at level 4/your first asi. Long as it happens before multi-attack you are fine.

How you split it can vary heavily.

Otherwise everyone and their mother at some point runs a hand crossbow SS/xbert. What you add to it hardly matters, it’s a top tier choice. However I’d say skip gloomstalker. The sooner you reach level 11 the better if your goal is purely damage related. A third d6+15 is a huge opportunity.

If the concern is what to do AFTER 11, it depends on the stat array and race imo. Fighter gets all those ASIs, so if you need them (because level 4 and 6 went to crossbow feats) the stat bonuses to hit will be very important for sharpshooter. Otherwise there are a ton of handy feats that you’ll miss out on or delay by going gloom. I just don’t think Gloom adds that much. The d4 on hit from ranger sometimes.. the opening salvo. That’s about it. I don’t think hunter mark mixes that well with SS, since you are gaining up an attack and have a lower than normal hit chance to begin with. Spells are always handy to have but if I were picking between 3 fighter levels between 11-20 or glooms benefit, I take 3 fighter every time.

Unfortunately, you still can't use a heavy crossbow and a shield since the heavy crossbow requires two hands to operate so you can't use a shield with it.

However, with the repeating shot infusion you CAN use a hand crossbow with a shield since it does not require the wielder to have a free hand to load ammunition since the crossbow magically reloads itself.

[Aeoulus]

Can a net be thrown with a bonus action? Then use action + action surge

"When you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to attack with a net, you can make only one attack regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make."

[Khrysaes]

Can a net be thrown with a bonus action? Then use action + action surge

"When you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to attack with a net, you can make only one attack regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make."

I think you need a bonus action to allow you to attack with the net. So, two weapon fighting for example, or a fighter maneuver, or something.

[Gurgeh]

Two-weapon fighting won't work with the net since it's a ranged weapon and TWF can only be used by melee weapons, but the Battle Master's Quick Toss manoeuvre would work (though since a net doesn't inflict any damage you'd miss out on the damage from the superiority die).

[Sherlockpwns]

Unfortunately, you still can't use a heavy crossbow and a shield since the heavy crossbow requires two hands to operate so you can't use a shield with it.

However, with the repeating shot infusion you CAN use a hand crossbow with a shield since it does not require the wielder to have a free hand to load ammunition since the crossbow magically reloads itself.

Oops- well the post still stands but with -2ac from original :)

Also you can throw a net (action) and if you have crossbow expert you can fire it as a bonus. That’s about as close as you can get with using a net and attacking in the same turn.