The problem with Serini

[Hardcore]

The order want Serini as an ally, right? That can only happen by persuasion, right?
Rouges are good at lies and deception, right?
Serini is Rouge, and likely a good one.
Given her thinking it would make sense for her to betray the order to xykon.
Can the Order ever be sure she won't be an unreliable ally that stab them in the back?

[hungrycrow]

The Order can be sure that Serini is an unreliable ally because she explicitly refused to be an ally and also is currently attacking them. Other than that though, I don't see why she'd want to turn them over to Xykon. That would probably lead to the fight she very much wants to avoid.

[Peelee]

Given her thinking it would make sense for her to betray the order to xykon.

I can't possibly see how that would make any sense at all.

[elros]

The two members of the OOTS least likely to be fooled by someone are Haley and Belkar. Considering both of them are with Serini, I see zero chance of her fooling both of them.

[Squire Doodad]

The order want Serini as an ally, right? That can only happen by persuasion, right?
Rouges are good at lies and deception, right?
Serini is Rouge, and likely a good one.
Given her thinking it would make sense for her to betray the order to xykon.
Can the Order ever be sure she won't be an unreliable ally that stab them in the back?

If Serini decides to join the party, it's most likely it is because she decides all 9 of them together would stand a chance against Xykon.
If Serini were to betray the party after joining them, it would most likely be leaving the minute everything goes to hell instead of sticking around until the end.
It would not be any form of sabotage, as her endgoal is keeping the Gate, her body, Sunny, and the rest of the world safe in that order, followed by destroying Xykon. Betraying the order to Xykon would risk all of those, and if she decides the Order has to go away, she can do it herself, like she is now.
If it's the actual final showdown and things go south, I doubt she would try to flip sides or hinder the party in any way outside of getting out of dodge.

Serini gets nothing out of Xykon actually winning, and even less out of betraying the Order to Xykon. She doesn't work for him, and hates his guts. She's scared of him, but that doesn't mean she wants to throw bodies in his direction as a treat.

[Psyren]

Serini is Rouge, and likely a good one.

I actually think they're about to make up.

[Emanick]

If we’re going solely by in-comic testimony, then the problem with Serini is that she “sucks.” Seems simple enough, albeit not the conclusion I would have drawn.

[Peelee]

I actually think they're about to make up.

Is she going to make them blush?

[KorvinStarmast]

I can't possibly see how that would make any sense at all. That's at least two of us.

The two members of the OOTS least likely to be fooled by someone are Haley and Belkar. Considering both of them are with Serini, I see zero chance of her fooling both of them. Concur.


If Serini decides to join the party, it's most likely it is because she decides all 9 of them together would stand a chance against Xykon.
If Serini were to betray the party after joining them, it would most likely be leaving the minute everything goes to hell instead of sticking around until the end.
It would not be any form of sabotage, as her endgoal is keeping the Gate, her body, Sunny, and the rest of the world safe in that order, followed by destroying Xykon. Betraying the order to Xykon would risk all of those, and if she decides the Order has to go away, she can do it herself, like she is now.
If it's the actual final showdown and things go south, I doubt she would try to flip sides or hinder the party in any way outside of getting out of dodge.

Serini gets nothing out of Xykon actually winning, and even less out of betraying the Order to Xykon. She doesn't work for him, and hates his guts. She's scared of him, but that doesn't mean she wants to throw bodies in his direction as a treat. Said what I was thinking, thank you.

Is she going to make them blush? Wait, is she a rogue or a rouge? :smallconfused:

[Lord Torath]

Rouges are good at lies and deception, right?Rouges are good at covering things up!

[Peelee]

Rouges are good at covering things up!

And Serini is a halfling, so you could even call her a compact.

[BloodSquirrel]

The order want Serini as an ally, right? That can only happen by persuasion, right?
Rouges are good at lies and deception, right?
Serini is Rouge, and likely a good one.
Given her thinking it would make sense for her to betray the order to xykon.
Can the Order ever be sure she won't be an unreliable ally that stab them in the back?

1) The Order doesn't know very much about Serini's thinking, because she's refused to talk with them. They have every reason to think that she opposes Xykon, and no reason to think that she would work with him.

2) There's no reason for her to betray them to Xykon. She doesn't want them fighting Xykon at all because she thinks they'll wind up destroying the gate in the process (her thoughts on this are not very well developed- more on that in a moment). There's really no scenario that I can think of where betraying them to Xykon makes it less likely that this outcome will occur, especially given her stated belief that Xykon will easily beat them anyway. She'd just be making it more likely that Xykon finds out about her or that the Order winds up acting out of desperation. Keep in mind that she didn't attack the Order because they were about to ambush Xykon- she was just following through on a pre-existing plan of hers that she decided on well before they entered the dungeon.

3) A lot of what has become accepted as "her thinking" on this forum is a construct of this forum, not the Serini we see in the comic. Serini, in the comic, is acting irrationally, and most of her plans and positions clearly haven't been thought through. In order to try to represent Serini as being more rational and calculating than she actually is, people have invented a lot of reasons and arguments that Serini herself has not expressed, even when given the opportunity. The Serini we see in the comic is not a coldly rational schemer; she's prone to emotional outbursts, block-headed stubbornness, and short-term thinking. When V asked why she didn't respond to their sending, she didn't outline some concern that if they knew she was alive they might get captured by Xykon and he would interrogate the information out of them, she said that they were dumb and stupid and she didn't want to talk to them.

It isn't in Serini's nature at all to pretend to agree to work with them before betraying them to Xykon. Doing that would require her to consider the idea that they might defeat him at least strongly enough to pretend to believe that it's true and help them plan for it, and she's in the mental space right now where such a thought cannot be entertained at all.

[BloodSquirrel]

If it's the actual final showdown and things go south, I doubt she would try to flip sides or hinder the party in any way outside of getting out of dodge.


On the one hand, I want to say that she would probably hang back and intervene if the Order starts actually heading toward the gate (Which Roy has already decided that they won't do, at least not on purpose). On the other hand, as of the last strip, I think she might just be so afraid of Xykon that she would panic and either hide or leave the gate behind and never look back. I don't think she has the courage to face Xykon at all right now, even under the intention of helping him (Especially seeing as he's likely to kill her just for funsies either way).

[Riftwolf]

Um

I doubt Serini would betray the Order to Xykon. She's going through a lot of trouble to stop *anyone* getting harmed by Xykon, and if the Order goes to fight Xykon Serini likely won't even be in the room.

Unless your logic train is 'the order is gud and Serini is attacking them so Serini is def bad' which is going to be hard to argue against.

[KorvinStarmast]

And Serini is a halfling, so you could even call her a compact.
Obligatory groan. (But I liked it!)

[Jason]

Serini has the same problem Redcloak does: she is invested in her plans for emotional reasons and is unwilling to change her plans when presented with evidence that workable or even superior alternatives exist.

Redcloak feels that if he changes his plans now he will lose his justification for past atrocities he has committed, and he's willing to commit new atrocities, like trying to murder someone who offers alternatives, in order to keep them.

Serini is deathly afraid of Xykon and feels she is inferior to the other gatekeepers whom he defeated, and so she is desperately trying to avoid another direct confrontation with Xykon, to the point of being willing to let him win.

V had this problem too. So did Tarquan, Nale, and Miko, for that matter. It seems to be kind of a theme in the comic.

[littlebum2002]

Is she going to make them blush?

Maybe instead she will contour to the Order's way of thinking.

[Peelee]

Maybe instead she will contour to the Order's way of thinking.

Maybe she's born with it.

[Lord Torath]

Maybe she's born with it.Maybe it's lies. It's probably lies.

[brian 333]

Maybe she's born with it.

Maybe it's Makebelieve.

[elros]

Serini has the same problem Redcloak does: she is invested in her plans for emotional reasons and is unwilling to change her plans when presented with evidence that workable or even superior alternatives exist.

Redcloak feels that if he changes his plans now he will lose his justification for past atrocities he has committed, and he's willing to commit new atrocities, like trying to murder someone who offers alternatives, in order to keep them.

Serini is deathly afraid of Xykon and feels she is inferior to the other gatekeepers whom he defeated, and so she is desperately trying to avoid another direct confrontation with Xykon, to the point of being willing to let him win.

V had this problem too. So did Tarquan, Nale, and Miko, for that matter. It seems to be kind of a theme in the comic.
It appears Roy is a character who made that mistake, but then grew as a character.
-When he taught Xykon 1-on-1 on the zombie dragon, he was not in a position to win but he insisted on fighting because he felt he had to fulfill the oath and defeat Xykon.
-After Durkon died, Roy went the other direction and was willing to quit until Belkar shamed him to continue.
-Roy refused to believe vampire Durkon was evil, despite Belkar pointing out that he is.

It is a credit to Roy that he learned from each of those experiences, and now is a better leader.

Similar growth can be seen with Haley, Elan, Belkar, and the other members of OOTS.

[littlebum2002]

I think Elan needs to start singing "How do you solve a problem like Serini?"

[brian 333]

I think Elan needs to start singing "How do you solve a problem like Serini?"

No Showboating on the forums: let's call the whole thing off.

[BloodSquirrel]

Yeah, we need to start a new thread. This one started on a terrible foundation.

[pearl jam]

It's true. No amount of concealer can hide it.

[TRH]

So time to take some cleansers to this thread and start over?

[BloodSquirrel]

Yeah. Try one with a little more polish.

[Peelee]

No need to go rogue over a simple misspelling, I think we can gloss over it.

[Emanick]

No need to go rogue over a simple misspelling, I think we can gloss over it.

Let's not put lipstick on a pig. Really, let's face it: I don't think anyone needs to highlight how the beauty of this thread has been reduced to powder.

[Peelee]

Let's not put lipstick on a pig. Really, let's face it: I don't think anyone needs to highlight how the beauty of this thread has been reduced to powder.

Well now I just want to curl up and dye.

[brian 333]

Well now I just want to curl up and dye.

Too much static already to simply brush this off. We need to highlight the important strands so we can get to the roots of the issue and achieve a permanent solution.

[BloodSquirrel]

Can we just stop now? This thread has been under the shadow of this joke for too long.

[Robots]

Rouges are good at lies and deception, right?
Serini is Rouge, and likely a good one.

like the bat

[gnomish dwelf]

Having the capacity to do something (being a rogue) does not mean having the desire to do said thing (betraying them to Xykon), alignment more than class determines this and she will probably join them for good if she does join them, your fallacy is a non sequitur, and I say this respectfully.

[KorvinStarmast]

Having the capacity to do something (being a rogue) does not mean having the desire to do said thing (betraying them to Xykon), alignment more than class determines this and she will probably join them for good if she does join them, your fallacy is a non sequitur, and I say this respectfully. Is that a response to the OP?

To respond to yours: personal motives, more than alignment, determine who she will or won't join.

[gnomish dwelf]

Is that a response to the OP?

To respond to yours: personal motives, more than alignment, determine who she will or won't join.

yeah I was answering the op... and well yeah, personal motives are relevant to what she will do but they are more relevant than class too and and they are shaped by alignment...

[ComicSansSeraph]

Can we just stop now? This thread has been under the shadow of this joke for too long.
How can we makeup for all these puns?

[Darth Paul]

How can we makeup for all these puns?

Too late, the best bet now is some kind of concealer.

[TRH]

How can we makeup for all these puns?

It doesn't seem that bad at first blush.

[gnomish dwelf]

I get the general outlook of these jokes but not their cause.

[Forum Explorer]

I get the general outlook of these jokes but not their cause.

Someone misspelled Rogue as Rouge

[gnomish dwelf]

Someone misspelled Rogue as Rouge

Thanks for enlightening me, for I always pun on the similiairty of the words, next to the Crimson Cutthroat I give you the Scarlet Sage and the Rouge Rogue. Its an excellent mnemonic to know what is what.

[Hardcore]

In my defense I blame auto-correct.

[gnomish dwelf]

In my defense I blame auto-correct.

To err is human, but I am a dwelf.