Snarl Endgame Theory

[geekdadsarcade]

This may sound crazy, but hear me out. The gods need a new color the Snarl doesn’t have in order to trap it. It’s pretty clear Redcloak isn’t going to play ball on behalf of the Dark One to add purple to the other colors. Fortunately, there is another new color we haven’t seen yet…

Banjo.

[BloodSquirrel]

Thor already knows about Banjo, so if that was workable, he'd have gone with that.

(I'm still rooting for the MitD to be some sort of divine creature that will be able to contribute).

[Jason]

Banjo is not yet powerful enough to offer his clerics 9th level spells.

[geekdadsarcade]

Banjo is not yet powerful enough to offer his clerics 9th level spells.

Not powerful enough... yet...

Banjo and Giggles have a pantheon started over on Orc Island. It's just a matter of time.

[Fyraltari]

Not powerful enough... yet...

Banjo and Giggles have a pantheon started over on Orc Island. It's just a matter of time.

Until the orcs switch god again? I agree.

[elros]

I apologize if it has been covered by another thread, but I wonder if 9th level spell slot from an elemental creed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html) could work. I think of it like colorless (https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Colorless)mana.

[Emanick]

I apologize if it has been covered by another thread, but I wonder if 9th level spell slot from an elemental creed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html) could work. I think of it like colorless (https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Colorless)mana.

This is a really interesting question that I don’t remember being addressed before. I genuinely don’t know how that would work. Do those spells have quiddities? Are they just a mixture of the three primary ones?

[InvisibleBison]

I apologize if it has been covered by another thread, but I wonder if 9th level spell slot from an elemental creed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html) could work. I think of it like colorless (https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Colorless)mana.

I can't imagine that would work. The non-theistic clerics derive their power from various powerful elementals, who presumably were created by the gods. Thus, the spells cast by non-theistic clerics would be of one of the three known quiddities (or perhaps a mixture of all three), which wouldn't be useful for sealing the Snarl.

[faustin]

The Snarl origin story as told by Lord Shojo was never meant to be 100% accurate. Just like the origin of the goblin race.

For example, what about the undestroyed world with the ocean witnessed by both Blackwing and Laurin through the rifts?

[gnomish dwelf]

This may sound crazy, but hear me out. The gods need a new color the Snarl doesn’t have in order to trap it. It’s pretty clear Redcloak isn’t going to play ball on behalf of the Dark One to add purple to the other colors. Fortunately, there is another new color we haven’t seen yet…

Banjo.

That's almost genius... But you are wrong, Banjo lost his followers to the new god of slapstick... That's the new colour that will save everyone!

[geekdadsarcade]

That's almost genius... But you are wrong, Banjo lost his followers to the new god of slapstick... That's the new colour that will save everyone!

I'm willing to bet Banjo and Giggle's pantheon will be a new color.

[gnomish dwelf]

I can agree to that

[Morquard]

Banjo was created by a follower of the northern gods (Elan) so even if he has any quididity, it would be yellow.

The Dark One is specifically a new color, because his followers where not followers of ANY of the established pantheons.

Let's be honest, if Banjo was going to be the solution, we'd have seen him do more than be a joke in the last 1000 strips or so (the first 100 don't count).

[gnomish dwelf]

Banjo was created by a follower of the northern gods (Elan) so even if he has any quididity, it would be yellow.

The Dark One is specifically a new color, because his followers where not followers of ANY of the established pantheons.

Let's be honest, if Banjo was going to be the solution, we'd have seen him do more than be a joke in the last 1000 strips or so (the first 100 don't count).

What about giggles?

[Morquard]

What about giggles?

We've seen Giggles been anything less than a joke in the last 1000 strips?

Let's be honest, if someone worshipping a hand-puppet could solve the god's billennia-old problem, you really think nobody on the trillions of previous worlds would have come up with it yet?

[gnomish dwelf]

We've seen Giggles been anything less than a joke in the last 1000 strips?

Let's be honest, if someone worshipping a hand-puppet could solve the god's billennia-old problem, you really think nobody on the trillions of previous worlds would have come up with it yet?

touche, touche indeed sir, you win the debate

[Emanick]

We've seen Giggles been anything less than a joke in the last 1000 strips?

Let's be honest, if someone worshipping a hand-puppet could solve the god's billennia-old problem, you really think nobody on the trillions of previous worlds would have come up with it yet?

To be fair, even in that vast amount of time (probably more like millions than trillions, though I guess we don’t have much data on which), it’s entirely possible that literally nobody has tried this specific thing before. It is kind of nuts.

[danielxcutter]

Considering that making Banjo and Giggles relevant to this would essentially make the entire goblin subplot thing completely meaningless, no it probably won’t happen and I sure hope it never does.

[Synesthesy]

I apologize if it has been covered by another thread, but I wonder if 9th level spell slot from an elemental creed (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0995.html) could work. I think of it like colorless (https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/Colorless)mana.

The problem is that for sealing the Snarl you need 4 colors, and colorless mana is, well, colorless.

[faustin]

There are two current possibilities:

- Redcloak having a (dying) epiphanic moment where he realizes everything he did for the sake of the Plan was in vain, and agrees to Durkon's demands with a final 9 level spell.
- Banjo and Giggles gaining self-awareness and divinity through worship and rewarding their "maker" Elan with their own quiddity.

At this point, I don't know which one is the less likely.

[Morquard]

There are two current possibilities:

- Redcloak having a (dying) epiphanic moment where he realizes everything he did for the sake of the Plan was in vain, and agrees to Durkon's demands with a final 9 level spell.
- Banjo and Giggles gaining self-awareness and divinity through worship and rewarding their "maker" Elan with their own quiddity.

At this point, I don't know which one is the less likely.

There's been a few instances where Redcloak has struggled with either the Plan or his decisions or his alliance with Xykon.
There has been no instances of Banjo/Giggles not being a joke dreamed up by a lone bard. (discounting the first 100 or so strips)

I can tell you which of the two I find less likely. :)

[Nymrod]

There are two current possibilities:

- Redcloak having a (dying) epiphanic moment where he realizes everything he did for the sake of the Plan was in vain, and agrees to Durkon's demands with a final 9 level spell.
- Banjo and Giggles gaining self-awareness and divinity through worship and rewarding their "maker" Elan with their own quiddity.

At this point, I don't know which one is the less likely.

I know it will never happen but any number of mind-affecting spells V has access to could compel Redcloak to use a 9th level spell slot.

[woweedd]

Hm...No. No, the plot is not gonna be resolved by a joke character who has been of actual importance exactly once.


I know it will never happen but any number of mind-affecting spells V has access to could compel Redcloak to use a 9th level spell slot.
Wouldn't actually help long-term. They'd need to KEEP spot-welding the Rifts as they show up, which means they'd need to get the goblins as a whole on their side.

[Nymrod]

Hm...No. No, the plot is not gonna be resolved by a joke character who has been of actual importance exactly once.


Wouldn't actually help long-term. They'd need to KEEP spot-welding the Rifts as they show up, which means they'd need to get the goblins as a whole on their side.

Once Thor has proof of concept, everything changes though.

Oh and once that happens, the Dark One's best negotiating position is to kill Redcloak so he has no divine caster capable of 9th level spells on the material. Then the gods have to negotiate directly with him.

[Peelee]

Once Thor has proof of concept, everything changes though.

Oh and once that happens, the Dark One's best negotiating position is to kill Redcloak so he has no divine caster capable of 9th level spells on the material. Then the gods have to negotiate directly with him.


What? All TDO one has to do is stop granting him spells, and bam, same.situarion without killing one of the highest level clerics in the world, who also happens to serve him. Assuming he even could just up and kill Reddie - if that were something the gods could do with impunity, one might imagine Xykon would have been smitten some time ago.

[InvisibleBison]

Oh and once that happens, the Dark One's best negotiating position is to kill Redcloak so he has no divine caster capable of 9th level spells on the material. Then the gods have to negotiate directly with him.

Killing Redcloak is unnecessary. If the Dark One wants Redcloak to be unable to cast 9th level spells, he just needs to order Redcloak to inflict enough negative levels on himself to drop to 16th level.



Assuming he even could just up and kill Reddie - if that were something the gods could do with impunity, one might imagine Xykon would have been smitten some time ago.

I'm pretty sure the main reason the gods don't generally go around killing mortals is because doing so would violate the Dumb God Laws. Since the Dark One hasn't signed onto the Dumb God Laws Agreement, the only thing stopping him from killing mortals is the threat of another god retaliating in some way. This obviously wouldn't apply if he killed Redcloak.

[Nymrod]

And we really don't even know what exactly the Snarl is doing anyway, what with the world within the Rift. So I somehow don't think the actual endgame is to seal the Rifts.

[Emanick]

Assuming he even could just up and kill Reddie - if that were something the gods could do with impunity, one might imagine Xykon would have been smitten some time ago.

Adding on to what InvisibleBison said, it's possible that the Dumb God Laws (not to mention the basic structure of reality in the OOTSverse) allow gods to kill their own followers without repercussions - rather like how Roy was allowed to attack "his own" high priest during the Godsmoot. In that case, it would be perfectly possible for TDO to kill Redcloak while not being able to just divinely shank Xykon.

[mehs]

That's almost genius... But you are wrong, Banjo lost his followers to the new god of slapstick... That's the new colour that will save everyone!


eh doesn't really matter. Rival rules remember? Banjo will grow in power to match his brother even if Banjo doesn't do anything.

[Squire Doodad]

I'm willing to bet Banjo and Giggle's pantheon will be a new color.

To be fair, given the rules we've had described (for instance, the Elven Pantheon), Banjo would most likely be Yellow-derived as Elan is a Northerner, and therefore Giggles would also be Yellow.
Alternatively, they're both Blue, because it only began getting worshippers from Southern Orcs.


Regardless, the central plotline is not going to be resolved by a joke character in a way such that the entire plot is irrelevant.

[pearl jam]

Regardless, the central plotline is not going to be resolved by a joke character in a way such that the entire plot is irrelevant.

OR IS IT?

DUN DUN DUN! :elan: :roy:

[brian 333]

OR IS IT?

DUN DUN DUN! :elan: :roy:

Are you implying that the new quiddity's color will be pastel brown-scale?

[pearl jam]

If I say it out loud it won't happen. :roach:

[geekdadsarcade]

I still feel like this is a solid callback, and a good way to resolve the plot when things go sideways using standard action movie rules:


Establish conflict
Heroes work towards defeating evil by acquiring MacGuffin.
Things go horribly wrong, and our heroes look defeated.
Heroes get the MacGuffin at the last minute, but it doesn't work or is lost forever.
It looks like evil will triumph.
Callback to previous plot element provides alternate solution at the last possible second.
Heroes triumph and good defeats evil forever.
(Or did they?...)

[faustin]

Killing Redcloak is unnecessary. If the Dark One wants Redcloak to be unable to cast 9th level spells, he just needs to order Redcloak to inflict enough negative levels on himself to drop to 16th level.




I'm pretty sure the main reason the gods don't generally go around killing mortals is because doing so would violate the Dumb God Laws. Since the Dark One hasn't signed onto the Dumb God Laws Agreement, the only thing stopping him from killing mortals is the threat of another god retaliating in some way. This obviously wouldn't apply if he killed Redcloak.

Why would The Dark One need to kill his cleric to stop him from casting? The power comes from him, not Redcloak. He can turn off the mojo tap any moment.

[hamishspence]

Not exactly - not unless Redcloak has "grossly violated the code of conduct".

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm

Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

What he can do, regardless of absence code violations, at the time each day that Redcloak casts spells, is withhold his "granting of spells" - but that doesn't affect spells that have already been granted.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#grantSpells

Grant Spells
A deity automatically grants spells and domain powers to mortal divine spellcasters who pray to it. Most deities can grant spells from the cleric spell list, the ranger spell list, and from three or more domains. Deities with levels in the druid class can grant spells from the druid spell list, and deities with paladin levels can grant spells from the paladin spell list. A deity can withhold spells from any particular mortal as a free action; once a spell has been granted, it remains in the mortal’s mind until expended.

[Fyraltari]

Not exactly - not unless Redcloak has "grossly violated the code of conduct".

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm

Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).


I don't think that quote is saying that a god can't do this unless a specific code has been broken, but that they may do that and them doing that is the mostl likely result of a Cleric going against their God's philosophy.

[hamishspence]

It's the lack of a "Deprive cleric of all their powers" ability in the basic godly statblock, that suggests that a cleric's loss of powers isn't fully under the control of the deity.

If a deity for one reason or another is annoyed with their cleric, despite their cleric following the Code to the letter, they might "withhold spells" but all the other class abilities, including turning/rebuking Undead, are by default still there.

Only "Grossly violating the code of conduct" loses the cleric all the powers, and it may simply be an automatic thing that the deity does not have control over.

A deity might even want their follower to "grossly violate the Code" in an emergency situation - and they do - and the follower still loses their powers, because that's just the way powers work.

[faustin]

It's the lack of a "Deprive cleric of all their powers" ability in the basic godly statblock, that suggests that a cleric's loss of powers isn't fully under the control of the deity.

If a deity for one reason or another is annoyed with their cleric, despite their cleric following the Code to the letter, they might "withhold spells" but all the other class abilities, including turning/rebuking Undead, are by default still there.

Only "Grossly violating the code of conduct" loses the cleric all the powers, and it may simply be an automatic thing that the deity does not have control over.

A deity might even want their follower to "grossly violate the Code" in an emergency situation - and they do - and the follower still loses their powers, because that's just the way powers work.

According to the rules, Durkon (LG) shouldn't be allowed to serve Thor (CG) as a cleric.
Thor doesn't give a damn. The other deities don't seem to give a damn. Sure, it may bends the rules a little, but who cares? His cleric, his problem.

The Dim One isn't even signatory to the Covenant between deities. Are they gonna do something if he decides to strip Redcloak from his powers? Unlikely.

[Fyraltari]

It's the lack of a "Deprive cleric of all their powers" ability in the basic godly statblock, that suggests that a cleric's loss of powers isn't fully under the control of the deity.

If a deity for one reason or another is annoyed with their cleric, despite their cleric following the Code to the letter, they might "withhold spells" but all the other class abilities, including turning/rebuking Undead, are by default still there.

Only "Grossly violating the code of conduct" loses the cleric all the powers, and it may simply be an automatic thing that the deity does not have control over.

A deity might even want their follower to "grossly violate the Code" in an emergency situation - and they do - and the follower still loses their powers, because that's just the way powers work.
But isn't that precisely that ability? It sounds like an obvious "this is a warning" "and know you've officially taken this too far" set-up.

Like, deities are independent agents, right? Saying that they can't do a thing because the rule says they do it when X happens but never say they can do it otherwise seems to me to be an as overly literal reading of the rules as this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0048.html).

[Snails]

I still feel like this is a solid callback, and a good way to resolve the plot when things go sideways using standard action movie rules:


Establish conflict
Heroes work towards defeating evil by acquiring MacGuffin.
Things go horribly wrong, and our heroes look defeated.
Heroes get the MacGuffin at the last minute, but it doesn't work or is lost forever.
It looks like evil will triumph.
Callback to previous plot element provides alternate solution at the last possible second.
Heroes triumph and good defeats evil forever.
(Or did they?...)


That this formula is likely to apply I agree with.
Likely: "It looks like evil will triumph" = "The Snarl is released"

But there are other plot elements that could reappear that would make more sense. A weak imagination is not an argument.

Specifically I would name Kraagor, who was presumed killed, as a result of apparently being trapped within the Snarl's prison. IMO, Kraagor and the Snarl will have become friends, and he has been the happiest dwarf that has ever lived for the last century, moving/creating mountains with help of his more muscular buddy.

And, for the record, I made this call years and years ago, long before anyone even suggested Banjo/Giggles.

Note that the Scribble Tale includes a weird detail: Non-divine being withstand the attacks of the Snarl much better than gods. We have an explanation now via Quidity Physics, but why that Chekov's gun has been put over the mantlepiece has been ignored by most Readers.

There are many other possibilities, if you allow for the Snarl to be a character who can change. I am only naming the most likely, because I can explain odd details that have cropped up, details than Banjo does not help us with.

[Squire Doodad]

Of the scenarios that involve Redcloak dying/no purple Quiddity, Kraagor providing a "focus" for the Snarl or befriending it seems like a reasonably logical plot thread to add in comparison to Banjo being relevant.
Thinking of a scene like...
Redcloak is dead just as the last gate starts cracking in the middle of the last fight, with snarl tendrils suddenly coming out and Snarl-eyed Kraagor peering out, confused. Some sort of scenario with the party talking to him, the Snarl being revealed to be consuming worlds so it can build its own with a big dramatic THE SNARL MUST FEED! line before Durkon gets to put his diplomatifying to good use and tell Kraagor the gods might be willing to make a separate world for it to use if it means the cycle ends. Things like that.
And then, of course, Xykon interrupting and the second half of the final battle begins. The Snarl presumably has already gone back into its gate to await more information on a spare world, so Xykon remains as the final threat.

However, it still has the complications of Redcloak dying and the Purple Quiddity plotline being for nothing. THAT SAID, it also ties into several sub-subplots/questions ("the Snarl isn't doing anything unless provoked/scryed", "Kraagor fell into the portal"), while Banjo is, well, a cheap gag of a character. I'd rather have a twist that makes me say "So that's what all of those lines were about!" instead of one that makes me go "bwudduhuwhaaaaa?"
There is also an argument to be made that, if such an alternative is presented, Redcloak dying and the Purple Quiddity being pointless would make sense as nearly Redcloak's entire character is built on sunk cost fallacies.

TL;DR: I don't think Redcloak is going to die before Purple Quiddity plotlines get resolved. However, if he would, shenanigans involving Kraagor and/or the Snarl are more likely than anything to do with the puppets.

[Psyren]

Why would The Dark One need to kill his cleric to stop him from casting? The power comes from him, not Redcloak. He can turn off the mojo tap any moment.


Not exactly - not unless Redcloak has "grossly violated the code of conduct".

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm

Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

What he can do, regardless of absence code violations, at the time each day that Redcloak casts spells, is withhold his "granting of spells" - but that doesn't affect spells that have already been granted.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#grantSpells

Grant Spells
A deity automatically grants spells and domain powers to mortal divine spellcasters who pray to it. Most deities can grant spells from the cleric spell list, the ranger spell list, and from three or more domains. Deities with levels in the druid class can grant spells from the druid spell list, and deities with paladin levels can grant spells from the paladin spell list. A deity can withhold spells from any particular mortal as a free action; once a spell has been granted, it remains in the mortal’s mind until expended.

Just to point out - Redcloak specifically mentions that the Dark One can deny/choose not to grant him spells here: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html So the "withholding rule" appears to apply to OotS.

With that said, the most likely reading is that it applies at the moment of preparation/prayer - meaning that once Redcloak has his spell slots filled, the Dark One can't reach down and knock all the spells out of his head. This would allow Redcloak to go against TDO's wishes and help the heroes, provided he does so before he needs to pray for a refill.

The big challenge here is that, per Thor, Redcloak specifically needs to contribute a 9th-level spell slot. The chances of the heroes subduing him before he burns through all of those are pretty slim (but not zero.)

[faustin]

Note that the Scribble Tale includes a weird detail: Non-divine being withstand the attacks of the Snarl much better than gods. We have an explanation now via Quidity Physics, but why that Chekov's gun has been put over the mantlepiece has been ignored by most Readers.



The Scribble Tale, Redcloak Tale, and every example we have seen so far shows the Snarl insta-killing several non-divine characters (like Soon's wife).
Just because the Gods are more vulnerable to It doesn't mean the rest will do much better.

[Exantius]

The Scribble Tale, Redcloak Tale, and every example we have seen so far shows the Snarl insta-killing several non-divine characters (like Soon's wife).
Just because the Gods are more vulnerable to It doesn't mean the rest will do much better.

Yes. The specific quote is "Some have theorised since that the gods were even MORE vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level would have been". DnD deities have levels in the 50-70 range. So if a mortal of that ridiculously high level were to exist he might be resistant to the Snarl but that doesn't mean the level 20-something Kraagor would resist it. Personally I wouldn't put much weight on that quote; not every detail is important

As for the original topic, I think it is conceivable, but not likely, that the Banjo/Giggles cult is the resolution to the Snarl. If, for example, the orcs on the island managed to spread Giggles worship to other orc tribes, enough for Giggles to reach sentience and full divinity of a new quiddity (let's say orange since that's Giggle's color), which would then lead to Banjo reaching divinity as well (as the orcs believe in him as well, plus the rival power gain which is canon as we saw with Crystal and Haley). The lack of a 17th level cleric could be resolved by Banjo being present in the "flesh", being able to channel the orange quiddity directly

I don't say that's what will, or should, happen, but it's a fun thought experiment (plus imagine Durkon's reaction; it would be strip #561 times ten)

[brian 333]

Yes. The specific quote is "Some have theorised since that the gods were even MORE vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level would have been". DnD deities have levels in the 50-70 range. So if a mortal of that ridiculously high level were to exist he might be resistant to the Snarl but that doesn't mean the level 20-something Kraagor would resist it. Personally I wouldn't put much weight on that quote; not every detail is important

As for the original topic, I think it is conceivable, but not likely, that the Banjo/Giggles cult is the resolution to the Snarl. If, for example, the orcs on the island managed to spread Giggles worship to other orc tribes, enough for Giggles to reach sentience and full divinity of a new quiddity (let's say orange since that's Giggle's color), which would then lead to Banjo reaching divinity as well (as the orcs believe in him as well, plus the rival power gain which is canon as we saw with Crystal and Haley). The lack of a 17th level cleric could be resolved by Banjo being present in the "flesh", being able to channel the orange quiddity directly

I don't say that's what will, or should, happen, but it's a fun thought experiment (plus imagine Durkon's reaction; it would be strip #561 times ten)

Exactly! Now all we need is a level 18 orc cleric of Giggle's faith who can cast a level 9 spell because deities can't exist as deities on the mortal plane.

[Exantius]

Exactly! Now all we need is a level 18 orc cleric of Giggle's faith who can cast a level 9 spell because deities can't exist as deities on the mortal plane.

There are avatars of various deities in DnD, who don't possess the full power of the deity but a portion of it, I'm pretty sure that includes the ability to cast any spells the deity can grant. Maybe the Banjo Elan holds could serve as an avatar of Banjo or Giggles?

A bit far-fetched, yes, the lack of a cleric of sufficient power does hamper this theory. Although it wouldn't necessarily need to be an Orc cleric, any cleric with access to 9th level spells who then converted to Giggles worship, but the only cleric that strong is Redcloak so that doesn't fly either. Damn you, Durkon, for not being level 17! (the cleric level for 9th lvl spells is 17, not 18)

[faustin]

There are avatars of various deities in DnD, who don't possess the full power of the deity but a portion of it, I'm pretty sure that includes the ability to cast any spells the deity can grant. Maybe the Banjo Elan holds could serve as an avatar of Banjo or Giggles?

A bit far-fetched, yes, the lack of a cleric of sufficient power does hamper this theory. Although it wouldn't necessarily need to be an Orc cleric, any cleric with access to 9th level spells who then converted to Giggles worship, but the only cleric that strong is Redcloak so that doesn't fly either. Damn you, Durkon, for not being level 17! (the cleric level for 9th lvl spells is 17, not 18)

Why do they need a cleric? The only reason Thor sent Durkon to parlay with Redcloak, is the Dark One being hostile to the other gods (therefore risk of creating a two colored Snarl).

If the God with the unique color is on board with the plan, there is no need of middle man.

[Exantius]

Why do they need a cleric? The only reason Thor sent Durkon to parlay with Redcloak, is the Dark One being hostile to the other gods (therefore risk of creating a two colored Snarl).

If the God with the unique color is on board with the plan, there is no need of middle man.

In #1143, Thor's plan is to "spot-weld" the rifts, requiring a drop of the Dark One's power in the form of a 9th level spell slot. It's a little ambiguous as to what would have happened if TDO had cooperated, but if OotS-verse deities cannot enter the world and make changes after creation (the reason why they didn't just fix the rifts in the first place) I assumed they would've needed Redcloak to channel TDO's power in any case

[Fyraltari]

OotS-verse deities cannot enter the world and make changes after creation (the reason why they didn't just fix the rifts in the first place)
They are able to enter the world and change it. They are not allowed to, to prevent the formation of a second snarl. A change made to seal the snarl forever would probably be given a pass. The reason they didn't fix the rifts in the first place os because they cannot make the fix last with just three pantheons.

[brian 333]

And for some reason, they had to wait for mortals to discover the rifts and patch them. One would think that if they could have spot-welded them without mortal intervention, they would have done so.

[Fyraltari]

And for some reason, they had to wait for mortals to discover the rifts and patch them. One would think that if they could have spot-welded them without mortal intervention, they would have done so.

I think the idea is that Gates and similar seals were tried before and always failed, so they don't even bother anymore.

[brian 333]

I think the idea is that Gates and similar seals were tried before and always failed, so they don't even bother anymore.

Maybe. I'd look for supporting evidence.

Thor specifically says he needs a 9th level spell from the new quiddity. If he could get what he needs from TDO or another deity with a fourth quiddity, directly (which is what the pro-Banjoists are claiming,) then why would he need Durkon to do anything other than let Redcloak know so that TDO will know what's going on? RC wouldn't have to do anything, or agree to anything, and the gods could do what's needed without mortal mishaps screwing up the plan.

[littlebum2002]

Not exactly - not unless Redcloak has "grossly violated the code of conduct".

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/cleric.htm

Ex-Clerics
A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons. He cannot thereafter gain levels as a cleric of that god until he atones (see the atonement spell description).

The best thing about being a Deity is that you and you alone determine what the "code of conduct" is for your followers. If TDO wants to he can just create a new commandment that says "you shall not hang out with Liches named Xykon" and then he can instantly punish Redcloak for violating it

[Peelee]

The best thing about being a Deity is that you and you alone determine what the "code of conduct" is for your followers.

Stickworld seems to operate on different rules than this.

[Fyraltari]

Stickworld seems to operate on different rules than this.

Does it?90

[Peelee]

Does it?

Third yellow hair and Odin's loopiness certainly seem to indicate that gods cannot make instant unilateral changes as their whims see fit.

[Fyraltari]

Third yellow hair and Odin's loopiness certainly seem to indicate that gods cannot make instant unilateral changes as their whims see fit.

But it doesn't seem like they are required to have a set of well defined commands they can never chanhe again.

Like that rule is in the cleric's description, not the god's right? So it seem more like a way of saying "if the player decides to do something that clearly goes against their god's ethos, like a cleric of the goddess of justice murdering a dude for money, the GM should have the god take their powers away, as a way to show displeasure with their actions."

It'd make sense that "the god wants to take the cleric's powers away" is the only factor in whether the god takes the powers away, regardless of whether the cleric has broken a specific commandment.

[Peelee]

But it doesn't seem like they are required to have a set of well defined commands they can never chanhe again.

Like that rule is in the cleric's description, not the god's right? So it seem more like a way of saying "if the player decides to do something that clearly goes against their god's ethos, like a cleric of the goddess of justice murdering a dude for money, the GM should have the god take their powers away, as a way to show displeasure with their actions."

It'd make sense that "the god wants to take the cleric's powers away" is the only factor in whether the god takes the powers away, regardless of whether the cleric has broken a specific commandment.

I don't dispute that at all. But that wasn't what I replied to. A god creating a specific commandment suddenly and then revoking the clerics powers based on that was what I replied to.

[Fyraltari]

I don't dispute that at all. But that wasn't what I replied to. A god creating a specific commandment suddenly and then revoking the clerics powers based on that was what I replied to.

But that's the same with one extra step, isn't it?

[Peelee]

But that's the same with one extra step, isn't it?

It's one extra step but the extra step makes it not the same thing. Like, if Bob kills Jeff, that's one of the thing. If Bob kills Jeff after Jeff pulled a knife on Steve, that's not the same thing even though there's one extra step.

[Fyraltari]

It's one extra step but the extra step makes it not the same thing. Like, if Bob kills Jeff, that's one of the thing. If Bob kills Jeff after Jeff pulled a knife on Steve, that's not the same thing even though there's one extra step.

Yeah, but if Bob kills Jeff after telling Jeff it's still the same thing, even though there's one extra step. You've gotta explain what difference that makes.

[Peelee]

Yeah, but if Bob kills Jeff after telling Jeff it's still the same thing, even though there's one extra step. You've gotta explain what difference that makes.

One is murder, the other is killing in defense of another. Pretty big difference there.

[Fyraltari]

One is murder, the other is killing in defense of another. Pretty big difference there.

I wasn't talking about your example I was talking about the god-stuff.

[Peelee]

I wasn't talking about your example I was talking about the god-stuff.

One is doing what Redcloak already knows and expects, the other is making up rules on the spot. He can already yank the powers, what does a weird useless justification possibly do other than add needless complexity and showcase that the rules don't actually matter?

[brian 333]

Can The Dark One remove Redcloak's spellcasting ability?

Yes.

Why should he?

That is the essential question. As a deity of Law he would have logical rules for his clerics, even if we readers don't know them or wouldn't understand them if we did. To do so because of a whim, or because he changed his mind, or because it's the easy way out of a situation he has worked to contrive would be the act of a Chaotic deity.

[littlebum2002]

One is doing what Redcloak already knows and expects, the other is making up rules on the spot. He can already yank the powers, what does a weird useless justification possibly do other than add needless complexity and showcase that the rules don't actually matter?

These are deities we are talking about.

[Peelee]

These are deities we are talking about.

...and? D&D deities and Stickworld deities are not all powerful. And Stickworld deities are explicitly shaped by beliefs. I suppose if a core tenet of Darkoneism is "he can unilaterally alter dogma at will", then sure he probably could. But I doubt that is a facet of Darkoneism, and even if it is, we have no indication of it.

[littlebum2002]

...and? D&D deities and Stickworld deities are not all powerful. And Stickworld deities are explicitly shaped by beliefs. I suppose if a core tenet of Darkoneism is "he can unilaterally alter dogma at will", then sure he probably could. But I doubt that is a facet of Darkoneism, and even if it is, we have no indication of it.

No, you're right, I'm just pointing out that, from what we've seen of the Stickverse deities, "adding needless complexity" seems to be par for the course.

[Heksefatter]

My pet theory is that the Eastern gods (Zeus and the others) are still alive in the world inside the Snarl. If the Order could establish contact, maybe the gods could access the colour green again. And WITH the Dark One, they might even be able to lock up the Snarl for good.

[Peelee]

My pet theory is that the Eastern gods (Zeus and the others) are still alive in the world inside the Snarl.

How could they have survived for so long?

[Fyraltari]

How could they have survived for so long?

On the souls of the mortals swallowed by the Snarl?

[Peelee]

On the souls of the mortals swallowed by the Snarl?

After billions of years (most likely), I would expect that "evolution" thing they talked about probably took some sort of effect. Id be amazed if they were anything remotely resembling familiar at this point.

[Millstone85]

My pet theory is that the Eastern gods (Zeus and the others) are still alive in the world inside the Snarl.
How could they have survived for so long?Because the Snarl never had any volition of its own. The eastern gods found this tangle of divine quiddities and learned to control it. Then they faked their deaths, along with the destruction of the first world.

In truth, they became the first world's only rulers, and later the rulers of a vast universe as the other gods kept creating new worlds for the eastern gods to steal.

Or at least, that's my own pet theory.

[Peelee]

Because the Snarl never had any volition of its own. The eastern gods found this tangle of divine quiddities and learned to control it. Then they faked their deaths, along with the destruction of the first world.

In truth, they became the first world's only rulers, and later the rulers of a vast universe as the other gods kept creating new worlds for the eastern gods to steal.

Or at least, that's my own pet theory.
That's actually quite an impressive theory.

Id never put any money on it, but still. Impressive.

[Emanick]

After billions of years (most likely), I would expect that "evolution" thing they talked about probably took some sort of effect. Id be amazed if they were anything remotely resembling familiar at this point.

Well, if the mortals all died after being attacked by the Snarl (implied by the X's in the eyes of mortals the Snarl kills) and the gods were nourished by their souls after the Snarl drew them in, evolution wouldn't really come up, would it? Gods don't reproduce (with exceptions, apparently (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html)), so they can't evolve. Even if they could reproduce, it's not clear to me that evolution would apply to them, because they're not necessarily made of the same kind of matter/genetic material that we are.

Of course, the difficulty here is that it's not at all clear why gods would survive the Snarl when mortals didn't (besides "duh, they're gods, so the Snarl can't actually kill them," which technically makes sense but doesn't seem like a satisfying answer from a storytelling point of view). I'm not necessarily defending this idea - it's conceivable, but not likely, IMO - just playing with it a bit.

[Fyraltari]

After billions of years (most likely), I would expect that "evolution" thing they talked about probably took some sort of effect. Id be amazed if they were anything remotely resembling familiar at this point.
I'm not following you.
Why would the Eastern Gods have evolved when the other three pantheons haven't?
:smallconfused:

[Peelee]

Well, if the mortals all died after being attacked by the Snarl (implied by the X's in the eyes of mortals the Snarl kills)
Then the gods would have died out eons ago.

I'm not following you.
Why would the Eastern Gods have evolved when the other three pantheons haven't?
:smallconfused:

Not withstanding that I was talking about the people (who's beliefs would likely change as this went on), the other three pantheons have. As a quick and dirty example, Thor's hair is no longer red. IIRC, The Giant has remarked on how they were almost certainly different far back in the past but that didn't matter for the story he was writing.

[Emanick]

Then the gods would have died out eons ago.

Is there a reason why you only quoted the first half of my sentence, and deleted the part where I speculated that the gods could absorb their souls after the Snarl drew them in? :smallconfused:

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were deliberately taking what I said out of context to make it look rather silly.

[Peelee]

Is there a reason why you only quoted the first half of my sentence, and deleted the part where I speculated that the gods could absorb their souls after the Snarl drew them in? :smallconfused:

If I didn't know better, I'd think you were deliberately taking what I said out of context to make it look rather silly.

The whole "millions to billions of years afterwards with no souls or worship or belief" thing I already covered up thread. But, if you wish, I can certainly address it again.


The whole "millions to billions of years afterwards with no souls or worship or belief" thing might pose a problem to the gods current existence.

[Squire Doodad]

No matter what, at some point or another there have been several worlds in a row where the gods blew up the world before the Snarl broke free, so during those stretches they would burn through all their reserves and probably die.

[Heksefatter]

How could they have survived for so long?

My theory is that there is a fully-functional world inside the snarl. This world allows for the gods to sustain themselves.

One possibility is that it is the first world. Another is that the snarl actually doesn't destroy as much as envelop. In that way, it could be full of the life of the previously-created world. As such, the Eastern gods could basically be functioning as the gods of the world inside the snarl.

[Peelee]

My theory is that there is a fully-functional world inside the snarl. This world allows for the gods to sustain themselves.

One possibility is that it is the first world. Another is that the snarl actually doesn't destroy as much as envelop. In that way, it could be full of the life of the previously-created world.

While not definitive, Laurin couldn't detect any life when she scanned a region of the ocean.

[Heksefatter]

While not definitive, Laurin couldn't detect any life when she scanned a region of the ocean.

True. I thought of that. But on the other hand, Blackwing saw green - indicating plant life - on the planet inside the Snarl's hole. (Link to comic below).

One possibility is that the world in there is blurred to a degree - maybe thingsmove on another time scale than the Stickworld. Or maybe it is just difficult to probe from the other side.

Also, narratively, it would be boring for there to be nothing alive in the Snarlverse or whatever is best to call it.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html

[Peelee]

True. I thought of that. But on the other hand, Blackwing saw green - indicating plant life - on the planet inside the Snarl's hole. (Link to comic below).

One possibility is that the world in there is blurred to a degree - maybe thingsmove on another time scale than the Stickworld. Or maybe it is just difficult to probe from the other side.

Also, narratively, it would be boring for there to be nothing alive in the Snarlverse or whatever is best to call it.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html

My main issue with the Eastern Gods being alive and helping out is that nullifies the entire Plight of the Goblins storyline. It ends up basically being "sucks to be them. And sucks for their loser, loner god."

[Heksefatter]

My main issue with the Eastern Gods being alive and helping out is that nullifies the entire Plight of the Goblins storyline. It ends up basically being "sucks to be them. And sucks for their loser, loner god."

Not necessarily. Let's say that my theory is correct. Then it STILL allows for the Dark One to enter into this, because if BOTH the Dark One and Eastern gods add their colour, the Snarl could be bound forever, since now the bindings on the Snarl would be five-colour, making them more real than the Snarl itself.

On top of that, it would show the mortals outdoing the gods twice over. First by showing that they were wrong about the Snarl, what it meant (it isn't really a force of pure destruction) and mortals being able to rescue gods. Secondly, by the mortals creating something that the gods couldn't, by creating the Dark One, thus making something entirely new which didn't come from the old gods.

It would add up, since the story seems to be going in the direction that the gods - even good guys like Thor - are wrong or misguided about a good deal of things, and need to listen to the mortals.

[dmc91356]

Not sure why green on the planet, which would translate to plant life, actually supports the idea that the Eastern gods are still extant on that world. Plus, Peelee presents compelling plot reasons for the Eastern pantheon to remain Snarl food.

As for the Laurin question, the easiest answer is that the world within the rifts is either from a prior campaign or something the Snarl cooked up and they didn't/aren't using psionics in that one. Thus, Laurin's psionics basically don't work there. After all, look how long it took Redcloak to figure out that they WERE using psionics in the world of OOTS.

[Heksefatter]

Not sure why green on the planet, which would translate to plant life, actually supports the idea that the Eastern gods are still extant on that world. Plus, Peelee presents compelling plot reasons for the Eastern pantheon to remain Snarl food.

As for the Laurin question, the easiest answer is that the world within the rifts is either from a prior campaign or something the Snarl cooked up and they didn't/aren't using psionics in that one. Thus, Laurin's psionics basically don't work there. After all, look how long it took Redcloak to figure out that they WERE using psionics in the world of OOTS.

It doesn't support the Eastern gods being alive. It just goes against one particular counterargument (that Laurin didn't detect life) that they couldn't.

[Peelee]

Not necessarily. Let's say that my theory is correct. Then it STILL allows for the Dark One to enter into this, because if BOTH the Dark One and Eastern gods add their colour, the Snarl could be bound forever, since now the bindings on the Snarl would be five-colour, making them more real than the Snarl itself.
But Thor already stated that with a fourth color, they can already have the Snarl bound forever. It doesn't really add anything.

On top of that, it would show the mortals outdoing the gods twice over. First by showing that they were wrong about the Snarl, what it meant (it isn't really a force of pure destruction) and mortals being able to rescue gods.
But that wouldnt be out doing the gods at all. That would just be pure happenstance of knowing one thing the gods didn't know one time. And every other thing completely relies on the gods anyway.

[Heksefatter]

But Thor already stated that with a fourth color, they can already have the Snarl bound forever. It doesn't really add anything.

But that wouldnt be out doing the gods at all. That would just be pure happenstance of knowing one thing the gods didn't know one time. And every other thing completely relies on the gods anyway.

He didn't outright say that they could bind the snarl forever. Just who knows how long it would last? In any case, a fifth colour would definitely help.

And it wouldn't just be knowing something the gods didn't. It would also be actively going into the snarlverse and rescuing the gods. Something I am pretty sure that the gods couldn't, as they are very vulnerable to the snarl.

And if the snarl ends up bound, even with the dark one, it would still demand much involvement from the gods.

[Peelee]

He didn't outright say that they could bind the snarl forever. Just who knows how long it would last? In any case, a fifth colour would definitely help.
I, for one, got the impression of "It might end at some point, but not from the Snarl" out of that line.

And it wouldn't just be knowing something the gods didn't. It would also be actively going into the snarlverse and rescuing the gods. Something I am pretty sure that the gods couldn't, as they are very vulnerable to the snarl.
....I think you're ascribing a massive amount of power to the Order here. Why would the Eastern gods not get out? What does being "vulnerable" to the Snarl mean if not in a danger sense? How would the Order be powerful enough to be able to let gods escape when the gods themselves cannot do it? Why would they even want to escape, if their world has not been destroyed and had been going on for untold millennia?

The whole "god rescue" thing especially doesn't really fit anything we know currently.

And if the snarl ends up bound, even with the dark one, it would still demand much involvement from the gods.
...and?

[Jasdoif]

IIRC, The Giant has remarked on how they were almost certainly different far back in the past but that didn't matter for the story he was writing.Indeed.

...the fact that the gods are the way they are now does not preclude them having existed in some other form in the past—one that we might not have thought of as "gods." It's just that the mechanism for change isn't reproduction and evolution. Or rather, it's memetic evolution, not genetic.

EDIT: I also think you're forgetting that the gods originated "from beyond the chaos (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html)." Their initial creation and/or ascension would involve how things work in that other place, wherever that might be, and has little bearing on the story.




My main issue with the Eastern Gods being alive and helping out is that nullifies the entire Plight of the Goblins storyline. It ends up basically being "sucks to be them. And sucks for their loser, loner god."Not necessarily. Let's say that my theory is correct. Then it STILL allows for the Dark One to enter into this, because if BOTH the Dark One and Eastern gods add their colour, the Snarl could be bound forever, since now the bindings on the Snarl would be five-colour, making them more real than the Snarl itself.The Eastern Gods being available means the Dark One's involvement isn't necessary to get four quddities to seal the rifts, which will greatly appeal to multiple gods (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html).

The Eastern Gods surviving this long almost certainly means they could survive an intersnarlbellum period; and if that's the case then those gods can have their cake and eat it too by not sealing rifts until the next world, letting the current world and the Dark One die off in the interim. And if the Eastern Gods couldn't survive to the next world, then it's basically down to whether the Dark One or one of the Eastern Gods agrees to cooperate with Thor's plan first....And the Dark One is already decidedly uncooperative.

Even if there is a noticeable difference between four-quiddity and five-quiddity seals, is it really going to be anywhere near enough for the gods who are already blasé about ending worlds to change their minds over it? The interesting part about dealing with the Dark One is that it being unpalatable doesn't mean the world can do without it; introducing an alternative to the Dark One would grossly undercut that.

[brian 333]

Okay, so we completely nullify twenty years of storytelling, make the characters' decisions and growth irrelevant, and solve the main problem (literally) deus ex machina.

(Are you related to M. Night Shamalan?)

[Heksefatter]

Okay, so we completely nullify twenty years of storytelling, make the characters' decisions and growth irrelevant, and solve the main problem (literally) deus ex machina.

(Are you related to M. Night Shamalan?)

But that's not nullifying anything and making character growth irrelevant.

Let's say that the order wins and the gods somehow seal the snarl. That's the gods doing something, but not nullifying any of the things that the characters have done or achieved.

Now, let us say that my theory is correct: The Eastern gods are alive inside the snarlworld and the Order somehow gets in there and get them out. The gods, including the Dark One, seal the Snarl.

How does that invalidate character growth and decisions at all? In fact, the Order accomplishes MORE in the second option.

The only way I could see that argument holding would be if BOTH options are viewed as negating character growth and decisions, ie. if any sealing away of the Snarl done by the gods, even facilitated by the Order, is viewed as nullifying everything the Order achieved.

As for M. Night Shamalan, I have no idea who that is.

[Heksefatter]

Indeed.



The Eastern Gods being available means the Dark One's involvement isn't necessary to get four quddities to seal the rifts, which will greatly appeal to multiple gods (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1143.html).

The Eastern Gods surviving this long almost certainly means they could survive an intersnarlbellum period; and if that's the case then those gods can have their cake and eat it too by not sealing rifts until the next world, letting the current world and the Dark One die off in the interim. And if the Eastern Gods couldn't survive to the next world, then it's basically down to whether the Dark One or one of the Eastern Gods agrees to cooperate with Thor's plan first....And the Dark One is already decidedly uncooperative.

Even if there is a noticeable difference between four-quiddity and five-quiddity seals, is it really going to be anywhere near enough for the gods who are already blasé about ending worlds to change their minds over it? The interesting part about dealing with the Dark One is that it being unpalatable doesn't mean the world can do without it; introducing an alternative to the Dark One would grossly undercut that.

Actually, it doesn't mean that the gods could survive an interbellum period. It just means that the gods who were absorbed into the Snarlverse don't starve, which would make sense, if there's life there. However, a god OUTSIDE the Snarlverse, could still die of starvation. In fact, it is very likely that the gods can die of starvation outside the Snarlverse, since we have Thor saying that he's seen it and Loki seems genuinely worried that it might happen to Hel.

As for the Eastern gods ...it is possible that they just can't come out and survive if the world is torn down immediately after, as they will get no souls during the destruction of the world. However, I actually do agree with your observation about the Dark One being both unpalatable AND necessary. It is a good one. On the other hand, the gods seem blasé about destroying the world anyway and the Dark One doesn't really seem like he's about to cooperate unless something entirely new entered the game.

[brian 333]

But that's not nullifying anything and making character growth irrelevant.

Let's say that the order wins and the gods somehow seal the snarl. That's the gods doing something, but not nullifying any of the things that the characters have done or achieved.

Now, let us say that my theory is correct: The Eastern gods are alive inside the snarlworld and the Order somehow gets in there and get them out. The gods, including the Dark One, seal the Snarl.

How does that invalidate character growth and decisions at all? In fact, the Order accomplishes MORE in the second option.

The only way I could see that argument holding would be if BOTH options are viewed as negating character growth and decisions, ie. if any sealing away of the Snarl done by the gods, even facilitated by the Order, is viewed as nullifying everything the Order achieved.

As for M. Night Shamalan, I have no idea who that is.

If the gods could do as you suggest, why do they need the PCs at all? The Order Of The Stick will have been rendered irrelevant. For the story of the PCs to actually matter, they have to be active agents that solve the problem, not characters who flail around until someone else solves it.

Google M. Night and you will see a list of movies that end that way.

[pearl jam]

It's Shyamalan, though. :smallwink: