Unearthed arcana's Level-Independent Xp awards and Experience is a River

[VladtheLad]

So rereading Unearthed arcana's Level-Independent Xp awards, I wondered if it does fix the experience is a river issue? Or is it still always in your best interest to craft as much as possible?
Also if you used them would you change the tables of magic item xp costs and spell xp costs? The cost progression seems kinda wonky.

[Powerdork]

"Experience is a river" is a direct consequence of the fact that someone who's behind in level because they've been spending XP or dying a lot gets more XP than their higher-level party members, to make up for the increased challenge, relative to the others, and as a catch-up mechanic.

Further, the experience point threshold to gain a new level pre-epic is always the experience point difference between the two previous levels, plus 1000 XP. Thus, it always takes slightly more XP to gain a level if you're ahead, and slightly less XP to gain a level if you're behind. However, if everyone receives fixed XP rewards, then the gulf between someone who spends XP to pay costs and someone who does not will only ever grow, so the effect does diminish.

This does mean that the character with less XP will always be holding the party back (since either the encounters are dialed down to be appropriate for the new APL, or the character's capabilities aren't scaled to the high-level encounters, such as those found in a published adventure) unless the total costs they've paid provide more value to the party than the opportunity cost of not having those fancy late-game class levels.

[Fizban]

"Experience is a river" isn't a bug, it's a feature. The xp rewards don't accidentally let people catch up, it's there because characters are expected to die and be raised and have to catch up (though 3.5's massively jacking up the death penalties hugely screws this up, as I broke down a little while back), so the DM doesn't have to massively de-level the entire campaign. You're not expected to "spend" all or even most of your "WBL" on crafting, the crafting xp cost is merely there to explain why it can't be done infinitely and to give you little delay compared to the rest of the party.

I'm curious as to where all the sudden interest in "fixing" xp progressions is coming from. It's one of the least problematic and most ignored systems in the whole game to begin with

[Gnaeus]

But aside from that, the gold value tends to be worth way more than the level. Assume you are party level 8, so crafter is level 7 with 7000 available xp and 19000 gold. Assume that you have craft wondrous items. So you use your 19kgp and 1540 xp to craft 38000 GP worth of items. A level 7 with 38000 GP of items is almost always better than a level 8 with 19000. You actually have enough left over to craft your 3 party members up to 38000 GPworth. A party with 3 8th levels and a 7th level and 152000 GP of items is VASTLY more powerful than one with 4 8ths and 76k. This is even more true in a world lacking magic mart so the original wealth by level is poorly optimized and in effect semi random. This does assume downtime availability or some trick to avoid crafting times. Clearly a level 7 wizard who crafted 1 first level scroll and is 1 xp shy of leveling is worse than a wizard 8. It is generally very very difficult to craft yourself down by more than a single level. And since WBL builds in some wealth for consumables/treasure charts tend to exceed WBL, it isn’t impossible to exceed the numbers above. And of course that assumes that the items you need are craftable, but especially in a cooperative party where the wizard has scrolls and wands, cleric has wondrous items and one of the other characters has arms/armor you can generally craft a pretty high % of party wealth.

Edit. Math error. As a 7th level crafter in an 8th level party you would have level 8 starting WBL, which is 27000 crafted to 54000. Costing 2160 xp. Otherwise still true.

[VladtheLad]

"Experience is a river" is a direct consequence of the fact that someone who's behind in level because they've been spending XP or dying a lot gets more XP than their higher-level party members, to make up for the increased challenge, relative to the others, and as a catch-up mechanic.

Further, the experience point threshold to gain a new level pre-epic is always the experience point difference between the two previous levels, plus 1000 XP. Thus, it always takes slightly more XP to gain a level if you're ahead, and slightly less XP to gain a level if you're behind. However, if everyone receives fixed XP rewards, then the gulf between someone who spends XP to pay costs and someone who does not will only ever grow, so the effect does diminish.

This does mean that the character with less XP will always be holding the party back (since either the encounters are dialed down to be appropriate for the new APL, or the character's capabilities aren't scaled to the high-level encounters, such as those found in a published adventure) unless the total costs they've paid provide more value to the party than the opportunity cost of not having those fancy late-game class levels.

Hmm, that is fine, if you want for crafting to cost sth in the long run then its a fine variant. Also note the nature of the xp table is such that the higher level you go the less a specific xp expense matters.
I don't disagree with anything you are saying though.


"Experience is a river" isn't a bug, it's a feature. The xp rewards don't accidentally let people catch up, it's there because characters are expected to die and be raised and have to catch up (though 3.5's massively jacking up the death penalties hugely screws this up, as I broke down a little while back), so the DM doesn't have to massively de-level the entire campaign. You're not expected to "spend" all or even most of your "WBL" on crafting, the crafting xp cost is merely there to explain why it can't be done infinitely and to give you little delay compared to the rest of the party.

I'm curious as to where all the sudden interest in "fixing" xp progressions is coming from. It's one of the least problematic and most ignored systems in the whole game to begin with

Experience is a river is good if you want for lower levels to catch up to higher, but even the variant in arcana uneathed allows for this in a way. You might not be able to catch up exactly but the difference essentially becomes smaller. Dying at 10th level for example wont even matter at level 20 unless you are really unlucky and you miss the level up for a few xp.
Again with the normal experience system you are incentivised to craft constantly, no?
The way I understand it both systems have their pros and cons, its totally up to what you prefer.
My questions are about wether crafting is still highly incentivised, though it seems it is not and wether the craft/spell xp costs could use some twiking.

[VladtheLad]

But aside from that, the gold value tends to be worth way more than the level. Assume you are party level 8, so crafter is level 7 with 7000 available xp and 19000 gold. Assume that you have craft wondrous items. So you use your 19kgp and 1540 xp to craft 38000 GP worth of items. A level 7 with 38000 GP of items is almost always better than a level 8 with 19000. You actually have enough left over to craft your 3 party members up to 38000 GPworth. A party with 3 8th levels and a 7th level and 152000 GP of items is VASTLY more powerful than one with 4 8ths and 76k. This is even more true in a world lacking magic mart so the original wealth by level is poorly optimized and in effect semi random. This does assume downtime availability or some trick to avoid crafting times. Clearly a level 7 wizard who crafted 1 first level scroll and is 1 xp shy of leveling is worse than a wizard 8. It is generally very very difficult to craft yourself down by more than a single level. And since WBL builds in some wealth for consumables/treasure charts tend to exceed WBL, it isn’t impossible to exceed the numbers above. And of course that assumes that the items you need are craftable, but especially in a cooperative party where the wizard has scrolls and wands, cleric has wondrous items and one of the other characters has arms/armor you can generally craft a pretty high % of party wealth.

Edit. Math error. As a 7th level crafter in an 8th level party you would have level 8 starting WBL, which is 27000 crafted to 54000. Costing 2160 xp. Otherwise still true.

So you are saying the core system strongly incentivises crafting? Or am I missing sth?

[Gnaeus]

So you are saying the core system strongly incentivises crafting? Or am I missing sth?

You asked if it was always in your interest to craft as much as possible. Not always always, but almost always. The benefits overwhelmingly outweigh the level. The exception being if you are crafting some negligible amount that happens to keep you from leveling at a key time.