Do intelligent magic items have souls?

[Particle_Man]

Let’s say an intelligent magic weapon, ego and alignment and all, meets their doom at the feelers of a rust monster, or being dropped into Mount Doom, or even simply sundered. Ok the physical item is toast. Is there any soul that goes on to the appropriate outer plane? Could the item be reincarnated (and would it be as a living person, like a halfling, or as another intelligent magic item, like a shield perhaps)? Resurrected?

I figure it is likely DM’s call with a dash of Rule of Cool, but was wondering if there was an official (or quasi-official) ruling.

[Bronk]

Let’s say an intelligent magic weapon, ego and alignment and all, meets their doom at the feelers of a rust monster, or being dropped into Mount Doom, or even simply sundered. Ok the physical item is toast. Is there any soul that goes on to the appropriate outer plane? Could the item be reincarnated (and would it be as a living person, like a halfling, or as another intelligent magic item, like a shield perhaps)? Resurrected?

I figure it is likely DM’s call with a dash of Rule of Cool, but was wondering if there was an official (or quasi-official) ruling.

No... Intelligent items are treated as constructs, which are called out under the construct type as "Since it was never alive, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected."

That would be pretty neat though.

[Thurbane]

There was a spell, in an online article, that put part (or all) of someone's soul into a magic item to make it intelligent. Those items might be a special case.

Can't find the link right now, think it was FR related...

This is what I was thinking of: Nybor's Psychic Imprint (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20041215a). Doesn't work exactly how I remember - seems to generate a recreation of the target's mind, rather than transferring any of its soul.

[Gruftzwerg]

If you want an Intelligent Item with a soul, the solution is Polymorph Any Object cheese.

PAO can turn creatures into objects but has the following restriction:

A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell.
Magic items aren't affected by this spell.

But it doesn't restrict you that a creature can't be turned into a magic item. Creatures are still legal targets to be affected by this spell and magic items are still object = a valid target form.

Now, this doesn't mean that you can turn your buddy into a magical longsword +5. Since the spell doesn't give you the permission to give the object specific magical abilities. But an Intelligent Item is still legal by RAW.

If you don't wanna turn evil by turning creatures into magic items (at least I as DM would consider this as "evil"), you can use Simulacrum/Ice Assassin instead of real creatures. (but that would conflict with the purpose of items with a soul I guess..)

[Powerdork]

Consider the link between soul integrity, Hit Dice, energy drain, raising, and experience point expenditure.

My headcanon (and that's all I'm claiming it to be since I don't have the memory to cite sources backing it up) is that when someone engages in techniques of artifice to seal magic into an object or permanency or anything else, they're using a shaving from their animating force to do it.

Wish I could be more helpful with actual book pages.

[ShurikVch]

In D&D 3.X, to have a soul for a creature is a rule - not exception
Thus, if the item in question don't have the Soulless trait - then yes, it have a soul
After all, intelligent magic items are qualify for the Petitioner template - and what is Petitioner if not one of forms of soul?

[CIDE]

IIRC (AFB they're in storage) it's called out that while Warforged can be raised their soul or whatever they have is never seen in any afterlife. Which implies that they don't have a soul in any traditional sense. If the living constructs don't have one I don't reasonably see how (mostly) non-living constructs would.

[hamishspence]

If I remember rightly, the Living Construct trait removes a lot of the things that suggest soullessness about regular Constructs - such as immunity to necromancy effects.

So anything that normally requires a soul - the Trap the Soul spell, being Sacrificed and having their soul used for XP, and so on, works on a Warforged.

[Quertus]

If you want an Intelligent Item with a soul, the solution is Polymorph Any Object cheese.

PAO can turn creatures into objects but has the following restriction:


But it doesn't restrict you that a creature can't be turned into a magic item. Creatures are still legal targets to be affected by this spell and magic items are still object = a valid target form.

Now, this doesn't mean that you can turn your buddy into a magical longsword +5. Since the spell doesn't give you the permission to give the object specific magical abilities. But an Intelligent Item is still legal by RAW.

If you don't wanna turn evil by turning creatures into magic items (at least I as DM would consider this as "evil"), you can use Simulacrum/Ice Assassin instead of real creatures. (but that would conflict with the purpose of items with a soul I guess..)

Of all the things PCs can do, why would you call *this* out as evil? Or does "stabbing things with swords" also make PCs evil in your world?

[Gruftzwerg]

Of all the things PCs can do, why would you call *this* out as evil? Or does "stabbing things with swords" also make PCs evil in your world?

I don't think that you are going to find many free willing creatures that want to become your "intelligent magic ego extension"^^.

As such, forcing a creature (to become your magical posession) is imho evil.


"stabbing things" is not automatically evil. But stabbing someone "who doesn't want" to fight is. And so is "enslaving for no other reason than selfishness" evil in most d&d cultures. Evil evil evil !! ;)

But if you should find free willing test subjects, that's a different thing^^

[Quertus]

I don't think that you are going to find many free willing creatures that want to become your "intelligent magic ego extension"^^.

As such, forcing a creature (to become your magical posession) is imho evil.


"stabbing things" is not automatically evil. But stabbing someone "who doesn't want" to fight is. And so is "enslaving for no other reason than selfishness" evil in most d&d cultures. Evil evil evil !! ;)

But if you should find free willing test subjects, that's a different thing^^

You were just assuming that they were unwilling. That answers my question.

Although… acting against the choices of the individual is generally Lawful, not Evil.

[Tzardok]

Although… acting against the choices of the individual is generally Lawful, not Evil.

So, does that mean that demons ask for permission before raping and murdering you?

[loky1109]

So, does that mean that demons ask for permission before raping and murdering you?
Generally, yes. But, you in most cases don't understand what happens, and give this permission.

[Troacctid]

There are multiple ways for an item to become intelligent, and at least some of them are the direct result of an embedded soul, often belonging to an individual who forms the basis for the item's personality. Examples include docents, which claim to be ancient quori preserved in item form, and that one double scimitar from "Shadows of the Last War," which contains the soul of a Valenar horse. So, yes, it's possible for intelligent items to have souls, although they may merely be acting as receptacles for the souls of others.

[Vaern]

Intelligent items kind of blur the line between creature and object. I'm fairly certain that whether spells would affect it as a creature falls squarely in Rule 0 territory.
However, as pseudo-creatures they are considered constructs which means garden variety resurrections won't work. If they did, though, reincarnate brings the target back as a creature of the same creature type. A hypothetical reincarnated magic item would come back as a construct.
IIRC, there are spells in Spell Compendium to bring back outsiders and undead, which otherwise can't be revived. It wouldn't be too far of a leap to homebrew something that can bring a construct back.

[Tzardok]

I think there already is one. Maybe in Savage Species

[Particle_Man]

I don't think that you are going to find many free willing creatures that want to become your "intelligent magic ego extension"^^.

As such, forcing a creature (to become your magical posession) is imho evil.


"stabbing things" is not automatically evil. But stabbing someone "who doesn't want" to fight is. And so is "enslaving for no other reason than selfishness" evil in most d&d cultures. Evil evil evil !! ;)

But if you should find free willing test subjects, that's a different thing^^

Mind you with a high enough ego score it could be the intelligent magic item that runs the show.

[Necroticplague]

Could the item be reincarnated (and would it be as a living person, like a halfling, or as another intelligent magic item, like a shield perhaps)? Resurrected?
No. Such spells have 'target:dead creature touched.' Objects are not creatures, so are not valid targets, regardless of lack of integrity.

Even if we grant that being intelligent makes the item a creature, still no. Because an intelligent item is a Construct, who cannot die. They are instead destroyed.

In fact, I beleive that what the srd has to say on dying is very enlightening on this.

Dead

The character’s hit points are reduced to –10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.
So, something that dies has it's soul leave its body (unless it is of a type whose body and soul are one unit). Thus, things that don't die-constructs and undead- never invoke this clause. So, their souls don't leave their body. Ergo, either their souls are stuck when they're destroyed, or they lack them altogether.

Given how caging a soul is typically something reserved for very expensive materials, or relatively potent magics, I'm more inclined to go with the latter, instead of thinking you can permanently cage a soul just by reanimating and killing a zombie.