wish duplicating spells

[Torpin]

What level is the spell cast at, is it the base level of the spell, upcasted to 8th or casted at 9th

[Greywander]

I would say it casts the spell at (up to) 8th level. If you upcast to 9th level, then it's a 9th level spell, not an 8th level spell. Besides, it would make Wish even stronger if it upcast the spell to 9th level, and Wish is already pretty strong.

I'm not sure it actually says for sure, though. You are burning a 9th level slot, so I could see that being used as an argument for casting the spell at 9th level.

[Chronic]

I always treated it as if the spells were casted at their original level but nothing is said about that in the spell description, so it's a gm call I suppose.

[Zanos]

Crawford said it was upcast to 8th on Twitter and that makes sense to me, considering the duplication feature allows you to cast up to 8th level spells.

[ProsecutorGodot]

RAW - Unclear
RAI - Also unclear, though I recall Crawford most recently made mention that he would allow the spell to be upcast up to 8th level. He's also previously simply said "I'd let the caster decide" so it could also be 9th level if you're open to it. It's another case of "Crawford changes his mind 3 years later". Remember that Crawfords tweets are advice and not hard guidelines, you can ignore them if they don't work for you.

My ruling - I allow the spell to be upcast to 8th level, Wish being able to duplicate a spell is a sufficiently powerful effect that it's worth "losing" a bit of spell power in the trade. My opinion is that the limitation of an 8th level or lower slot isn't just a game mechanics limitation to prevent a spellcaster from picking Wish as their first 9th level spell so they now have access to all 9th level spells, but also a limitation in fiction of how even with the ability to bend reality you can only consistently squeeze out so much magic.

[PhoenixPhyre]

My ruling - I allow the spell to be upcast to 8th level, Wish being able to duplicate a spell is a sufficiently powerful effect that it's worth "losing" a bit of spell power in the trade. My opinion is that the limitation of an 8th level or lower slot isn't just a game mechanics limitation to prevent a spellcaster from picking Wish as their first 9th level spell so they now have access to all 9th level spells, but also a limitation in fiction of how even with the ability to bend reality you can only consistently squeeze out so much magic.

I agree. I default to "automatically upcast to 8th", with player option to go lower instead. But no 9th level slots.

[Lokishade]

The way I play the Wish spell duplication feature:

Effect: You get to pick from any levels between the minimum and 8. Those spells function exactly as described, except they have the casting time of one action and have only Verbal as component. Range is unlimited and no line of sight is required (covered by:"You don't need to meet any requirement in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.).

Counterspelling and spell resistances: Even if you merely created the effects of a level 1 Chromatic Orb, it is still treated as a level 9 spell for the purposes of counterspelling and spell resistances. You burned a level 9 spell slot. It's Wish.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Counterspelling and spell resistances: Even if you merely created the effects of a level 1 Chromatic Orb, it is still treated as a level 9 spell for the purposes of counterspelling and spell resistances. You burned a level 9 spell slot. It's Wish.
Seems fair, since they need to counterspell Wish, not the spell being duplicated. For spell resistance, I'm inclined to say that after the spell takes effect, it is now whatever level the duplicated effect would be and not a 9th level spell being cast.


Effect: You get to pick from any levels between the minimum and 8. Those spells function exactly as described, except they have the casting time of one action and have only Verbal as component. Range is unlimited and no line of sight is required (covered by:"You don't need to meet any requirement in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.).

This part I'm not sold on, "Requirements" is a mechanical term that doesn't encompass Range or Line of Sight. Requirements are specifically the spells components, the fact that you don't require any means that Wish will never require a Somatic or Material Component.

[Gtdead]

"When a character casts a spell, he or she expends a slot of that spell's level or higher, effectively "filling" a slot with the spell. You can think of a spell slot as a groove of a certain size--small for a 1st-level slot, larger for a spell of higher level. A 1st-level spell fits into a slot of any size, but a 9th-level spell fits only in a 9th-level slot. "

This means that a Magic Missiles upcasted to level 8 is a level 8 spell. This is further reinforced by Globe of Invulnerability spell which specifies:

"Any spell of 5th level or lower cast from outside the barrier can't affect creatures or Objects within it, even if the spell is cast using a higher level spell slot."

Wish specifies that you get to cast any spell of level 8 and lower. Magic Missiles upcasted to level 8 is a level 8 spell, so RAW, it seems you get to cast the upcasted version if you so choose. Replace MM with any spell you want.

Edit: Actually, there is a little problem with the language. RAW says "when a spellcaster casts", so with a very strict reading it requires the caster to cast a spell in order for it to be upcasted. However the second part gives a more general mechanism, so I think that the "when a character casts" is just a way of speech. We also have items and abilities that allow us to cast upcasted versions of spells. For example Wild Magic sorcerer can cast an upcasted version of MM if he rolls on the Surge table.

[Chronic]

You are not casting an 8th level magic missile, you are casting wish, and it duplicate another spell. Now whether you allow the spell to be upcasted is up to the gm but there is nothing saying the spell emulated are upcasted (nor the contrary).

[KorvinStarmast]

Crawford said it was upcast to 8th on Twitter and that makes sense to me, considering the duplication feature allows you to cast up to 8th level spells. Works for me. Burning that one level 9 slot to get level 8 spell effect...makes sense.

RAW - Unclear
RAI - Also unclear, though I recall Crawford most recently made mention that he would allow the spell to be upcast up to 8th level. He's also previously simply said "I'd let the caster decide" so it could also be 9th level if you're open to it. It's another case of "Crawford changes his mind 3 years later". Remember that Crawfords tweets are advice and not hard guidelines, you can ignore them if they don't work for you. This too.

I agree. I default to "automatically upcast to 8th", with player option to go lower instead. But no 9th level slots. *takes careful notes for next time* :smallbiggrin:

[Chronos]

If you're duplicating Magic Missile, you can duplicate a 1st-level Magic Missile, if you really want. Or you can duplicate a 2nd level one or a third level one and so on. But you can also duplicate an 8th-level magic missile, because you can duplicate any 8th-level or lower spell, and 8th-level Magic Missile falls into that category. And presumably, the 8th level version is the one you want to emulate, though there are probably some edge cases where you'd want to deliberately emulate a lower-level version (which is also allowed).

[Segev]

I just assumed it was cast from a ninth level slot, so it gets the benefits of having been so.