I need a level 20 Wizard concept to fight a level 20 monk

[BoutsofInsanity]

Good Morning Playgrounds. I need a level 20 Wizard who is going to participate in a variety 1 versus 1 fights against a level 20 Monk.

I'm weak compared to the knowledge the collective has for building the most versatile caster.

I don't need a full build. But the following would be helpful.


Some good items
Some strong staple spells you would use in the conflict - I don't need a full list, but there are definitely spells I don't know about that would matter.
Base tactics you would plan to use


Assumptions going into the fight

WOTC content - No EGTW, Acquisitions Inc, MTG content
No artifacts
1 legendary item, 2 very rare items, 2 rare items, uncommon items
It's reasonable to assume the wizard has at this point gained access to most spell scrolls to make their spell book.
The monk and wizard both know the fight is coming
Yuan-ti is not allowed


The Duel


The fight might take place in the following locations, an open field, a white close together room, a massive forest with a ruined castle in the middle
It might be a single fight or it might be a 3 rounder with a short rest after each bout
The Wizard has not had prep time for Wizard shenanigans like Simulacrum cheese.
Edit* - Duel ends when either character is dead or unconscious and at 0 hit points. Or leaving the dueling area.


I think that's it. Let me know what you got. -

[Mastikator]

Can wizard cast wish to win the duel?

[Xihirli]

Good Morning Playgrounds. I need a level 20 Wizard who is going to participate in a variety 1 versus 1 fights against a level 20 Monk.

I'm weak compared to the knowledge the collective has for building the most versatile caster.

I don't need a full build. But the following would be helpful.


Some good items
Some strong staple spells you would use in the conflict - I don't need a full list, but there are definitely spells I don't know about that would matter.
Base tactics you would plan to use


Assumptions going into the fight

WOTC content - No EGTW, Acquisitions Inc, MTG content
No artifacts
1 legendary item, 2 very rare items, 2 rare items, uncommon items
It's reasonable to assume the wizard has at this point gained access to most spell scrolls to make their spell book.
The monk and wizard both know the fight is coming
Yuan-ti is not allowed


The Duel


The fight might take place in the following locations, an open field, a white close together room, a massive forest with a ruined castle in the middle
It might be a single fight or it might be a 3 rounder with a short rest after each bout
The Wizard has not had prep time for Wizard shenanigans like Simulacrum cheese.


I think that's it. Let me know what you got.

Forcecage (cage) and then summon things inside the forcecage to fight the monk.
Shadow Monk is the only kind that can escape a forcecage, so feel free to pick up the Light cantrip so they only get one try at it.

Gear magic items and feat choices toward winning initiative and CON saves. The monk's win condition is to win initiative and stun-lock you.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Can wizard cast wish to win the duel?

No. Sorry I should have added that to the rules. We aren't trying to cheese a technicality win.

And I forgot to add. I'm sure the Monk will be using Page 195 of the PHB "contests in combat" to attempt disarming or stripping off items if they can.

[Phhase]

Robe of the Archmage and anything else to increase your spellpower always helps. Hold/Dominate Person and any other highly potent single-target lockdown is always very valuable. Forcecage is essentially an instant win, unless the monk can teleport out of it. You'll definitely want Shield. Time Stop into Delayed Blast Fireball + Fireball is potent. Maybe having some mundane bombs to light up and drop by their feet in Time Stop too would be good.

If you can hit a paralyze, then having a vial of Purple worm venom to make the most of the guaranteed crit would be good. 24d6 poison damage is no joke (unless they're a frog).

Flight, of course.

Depending on how permissive your DM is, Gaseous Form into invading the monk's lungs and choking them could be lethal.

Invisibility.

Dimension Door is a certainty, you'll need to make space.

Mental Prison could be good.

Psychic Lance is a great idea, especially if you know the Monk's name so you can fire the Lance from cover.

Blindness/Deafness.

Finger of Death.

Disintegrate.

Metamagic Adept into Twinspell + Dragons Breath on a familiar and yourself.

Might want the War Mage feat or War Wizard to make sure your concentration is good.

If you really wanna be mean, combine Divination Wizard with Plane Shift and send the Monk somewhere nasty, like the Negative Energy Plane or Carceri.

Since Monks make lots of melee attacks, an Abjuration wizard with Magic Initiate to get Armor of Agathys could be good. Big fat agathys upcast + blade ward and arcane ward and you've got tons of cold damage going out.


Honestly, Wizard has so many ways to screw up a single target. Just stay out of reach and they're pretty much dead. Especially if you're a Divination Wizard.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Robe of the Archmage and anything else to increase your spellpower always helps. Hold/Dominate Person and any other highly potent single-target lockdown is always very valuable. Forcecage is essentially an instant win, unless the monk can teleport out of it. You'll definitely want Shield. Time Stop into Delayed Blast Fireball + Fireball is potent. Maybe having some mundane bombs to light up and drop by their feet in Time Stop too would be good.

If you can hit a paralyze, then having a vial of Purple worm venom to make the most of the guaranteed crit would be good. 24d6 poison damage is no joke (unless they're a frog).

Flight, of course.

Depending on how permissive your DM is, Gaseous Form into invading the monk's lungs and choking them could be lethal.

Invisibility.

Dimension Door is a certainty, you'll need to make space.

Mental Prison could be good.

Psychic Lance is a great idea, especially if you know the Monk's name so you can fire the Lance from cover.

Blindness/Deafness.

Finger of Death.

Disintegrate.

Metamagic Adept into Twinspell + Dragons Breath on a familiar and yourself.

Might want the War Mage feat or War Wizard to make sure your concentration is good.

If you really wanna be mean, combine Divination Wizard with Plane Shift and send the Monk somewhere nasty, like the Negative Energy Plane or Carceri.

Since Monks make lots of melee attacks, an Abjuration wizard with Magic Initiate to get Armor of Agathys could be good. Big fat agathys upcast + blade ward and arcane ward and you've got tons of cold damage going out.


Honestly, Wizard has so many ways to screw up a single target. Just stay out of reach and they're pretty much dead. Especially if you're a Divination Wizard.

Well, poison and fireball are probably not going to be the best moves as the Monk has evasion, and immunity to poison. The planeshift auto win is good, and the hilariously over tuned force cage of course is absolutely ridiculous though.

[Xihirli]

I wouldn’t bother with any damage dealing spell that uses DEX unless you are a diviner. Monk will probably add 11 to DEX, 10 to WIS, 8 to CON, 5-7 to STR, 5-7 to CHA, and 5-7 to INT saves. They are incredibly likely to have the Scarab that gives them advantage, and monks don’t take half of successful DEX saves. Even assuming a DC of 25, a monk will probably succeed any DEX or WIS saves.

[Eldariel]

How broad is the "Simulacrum cheese" clause? Is this one of those "character pops into existence at the start of the fight and has no prior actions taken"? Can the Wizard have e.g. familiars, homunculi, Animate Dead skeletons, Wish > Find Greater Steed, Planar Bound minions, Mage Armor, Mind Blank, etc. up? This obviously affects how e.g. Necromancer or Conjurer would stack up. Either way, it seems to me like the best bet, as with all these random arena fights, is:
- Diviner (make the Monk's Initiative crap or take a high roll for yourself, either should largely suffice)
- Good no-save options
- One good start is casting Wish -> Simulacrum (copy yourself or the Monk, either is probably fine); this probably narrowly beats out Shapechange as while Shapechange would probably let you win fairly easily, Wish -> Simulacrum lets you put a more bull**** thing like Forcecage + Wall of Light/Faithful Hound/whatever + Pyrotechnics into play more quickly.
- Don't forget that Monk on this level has Astral Projection: you probably should figure out how that works WRT this arena (do they lose by "ring out" if they Project; can they start the fight as a Projection thus ensuring they can't die or does their physical body have to be in the ring?)

If you wanted more style, you could go Illusionist and just Wish -> Mirage Arcana and abuse the **** out of Malleable Illusions and Illusory Reality (all the while spitting out Major Images from 6+ slots for even more funzies). But realistically, winning Initiative is the most important part and Diviner is the best option to that end (considering War Wizard is just lousy in general). After that you have an array of options ranging from Maze to Shapechange to Wish -> whatever to Forcecage to Wall of Force to Telekinesis to Bigby's to...whatever, really. Shapechange into e.g. Ancient Brass Dragon would most likely let you win the melee fight.

You obviously do want Lucky, Alert & Res: Con (the same as every Wizard ever) with lots of Dex, Int & Con (15/15/15/8/8/8 is a fine loadout and races that give bonuses are nice) and depending on the wording (does the character exist before the fight?) you could use Metamagic Adept: Extend Spell to have e.g. Mind Blank and Foresight without wasting slots (and obviously Subtle Spell is always nice; the Monk may have Counterspell from items and even if they don't, there's Silence and such).

EDIT: Oh yeah and something like best of 3 with SRs each definitely means you should consolidate power in the first encounter; e.g. Wish -> Simulacrum followed by other sources of extra minions. You could Forcecage the Monk and spend the hour casting useful spells that make the subsequent fights easier (e.g. Contingency, Animate Objects, etc.) before you kill them.

[Phhase]

Banishment could be good. It's Charisma save (same as planeshift), which is unlikely to be strongest for a Monk.

Oh yeah, and Shapechange is massive too. Consider this: Shapechanging into a ghost allows you to go ethereal at will and use the Possession ability, an instant win on a Charisma save.

[Eldariel]

Banishment could be good. It's Charisma save (same as planeshift), which is unlikely to be strongest for a Monk.

I'd assume Maze is better. Monk has Diamond Soul so they have at least +6 to all saves as well as the ability to reroll them meaning they aren't that poorly off even for their poor saves, but spells like Maze simply have no saves.

If you need damage, Spirit Shroud from a high level slot followed by Scorching Ray is likely your best bet (short of Magic Missile with Evoker bull****) unless you use Shapechange; attack rolls are generally more reliable vs. Monks than save-or-Xs and you can get fairly substantial bonuses.

EDIT: Just beware, the Monk can have an item like Rod of Absorption to stop direct spells (this includes Maze but not Forcecage); you can either disarm them with e.g. Telekinesis first or you can just focus on area effect spells (Cloud of Daggers at the intersection + Forcecage for example is a fairly reliable blender unless they can drop size; against a very small opponent you need to use some other constant AoE like Wall of Fire, Wall of Light, Faithful Hound or whatever).

[Chaos Jackal]

This doesn't need to go to much depth.

The ways you have to disrupt or kill the monk are innumerable. Depending on the monk's subclass and terrain some of the following might not apply, but generally the majority will work. You can shut them down with flight and leave them with few if any useful options, you can trap them inside a wall and throw in a DoT effect, you can maze them and take your free turns to set up, you can summon stuff and teleport away, you can obliterate them completely with a Hexvoker or just make them autofail against something horrible with a Diviner, you can turn the entire place into your own personal playground with an Illusionist, you can just make yourself immune to damage with invulnerability or make yourself nearly unhittable with a Bladesinger and then hack them up... the list goes on.

So, let's look on the easier and much shorter part. What options they have for beating you. Fortunately, that's easy. They need to win initiative and then either burst you down in one turn or stunlock you and beat you over a few more.
Thus, you're looking first and foremost into ways to win initiative. So don't dump Dex. Alert is the obvious pick. War Magic gets Int to initiative. Diviner can just give the monk a 3. Sentinel Shield, Weapon of Warning and the Dragon-Touched Focus give you advantage to initiative.
With a combination of these your odds of losing initiative are very low, but just in case they do manage to go first, let's cover the other base too. Stunning Strike. You said you don't have time for preparing "shenanigans", but if you're allowed a contingency then something like greater invisibility or dimension door with a relevant trigger can just negate their turn. If you don't have that, your AC is pretty good with shield and mage armor and you can use something like the Barrier Tattoo to make yourself really hard to hit. Resilient, War Magic, Lucky, the Transmuter's Stone, Diviner and others can, without much difficulty, make you highly unlikely to fail a Con save.

To sum it up, a combination of some of the above defenses pretty much negates the monk's sole win condition, and your own win conditions are numerous and way harder for them to counter. Pick what suits you more.

[qube]

Hold/Dominate Person and any other highly potent single-target lockdown is always very valuableAgainst monks?
Monks get proficiency, high wisdom, and pseudo-advantage on their saving throws (1 ki point: reroll).

I'd certainly prepare
See invisibility, or true sight, or whatever. For 4 ki points monks become invisible and resistant to virtually all damage(except force). That might be something to keep in mind :smallamused:
misty step (you know, grappling?)

I would possibly also prepare powerword kill. At most the monk will have about 160 hp (d8, amulet of health. without said item ... I doubt the MAD monk will have much hp over 125 ). An evoker with magic missle, followed by a PWK should do the trick.

Oh, and there's IIRC a feat that gives you the ability to get metamagic. Subtle Spell - they'll never expect it :)

[stoutstien]

I like monks but honestly but if neither has the option to be pre-buffed before going in the monk is going to get obliterated unless they go first, get lucky with SS spam, and get lucky with damage rolls. The only clear options I see is if they go kensei and have favorable terrain where they can use a bow and kite the wizard or long death to hopefully just win by attrition but hardly a sound strategy. I would say shadow for silence but not that subtle is available via a feat that wouldn't work.

[Unoriginal]

OP, is multiclassing on the table for either combatants?


You can shut them down with flight and leave them with few if any useful options, you can trap them inside a wall and throw in a DoT effect, you can maze them and take your free turns to set up, you can summon stuff and teleport away, you can obliterate them completely with a Hexvoker or just make them autofail against something horrible with a Diviner, you can turn the entire place into your own personal playground with an Illusionist, you can just make yourself immune to damage with invulnerability or make yourself nearly unhittable with a Bladesinger and then hack them up... the list goes on.

Gotta love when people vaguexplain their way into victory because "magic can do that".

None of the options you listed will KO a lvl 20 Monk by themselves or leave them helpless. A precise strategy using some of those things could beat a lvl 20 Monk, perhaps, but it's certainly not as easily as this post here imply.

Flying does not protect against a lvl 20 Monk who is prepared for it. Summoning does not protect against a lvl 20 Monk, period. A Diviner or an Illusionist can deploy a couple nasty tricks, sure, but to beat a lvl 20 Monk you need more than a few nasty tricks. And I'd be curious how an Hexvoker could obliterate them.

[Phhase]

prepare powerword kill

Oh right. That spell exists. Yeah, just use that.

Also ask your DM about the feasibility of bringing a Symbol or a Glyph of Warding (Lets you double up Concentration) in a bag of holding.

[BoutsofInsanity]

This doesn't need to go to much depth.

The ways you have to disrupt or kill the monk are innumerable. Depending on the monk's subclass and terrain some of the following might not apply, but generally the majority will work. You can shut them down with flight and leave them with few if any useful options, you can trap them inside a wall and throw in a DoT effect, you can maze them and take your free turns to set up, you can summon stuff and teleport away, you can obliterate them completely with a Hexvoker or just make them autofail against something horrible with a Diviner, you can turn the entire place into your own personal playground with an Illusionist, you can just make yourself immune to damage with invulnerability or make yourself nearly unhittable with a Bladesinger and then hack them up... the list goes on.

So, let's look on the easier and much shorter part. What options they have for beating you. Fortunately, that's easy. They need to win initiative and then either burst you down in one turn or stunlock you and beat you over a few more.
Thus, you're looking first and foremost into ways to win initiative. So don't dump Dex. Alert is the obvious pick. War Magic gets Int to initiative. Diviner can just give the monk a 3. Sentinel Shield, Weapon of Warning and the Dragon-Touched Focus give you advantage to initiative.
With a combination of these your odds of losing initiative are very low, but just in case they do manage to go first, let's cover the other base too. Stunning Strike. You said you don't have time for preparing "shenanigans", but if you're allowed a contingency then something like greater invisibility or dimension door with a relevant trigger can just negate their turn. If you don't have that, your AC is pretty good with shield and mage armor and you can use something like the Barrier Tattoo to make yourself really hard to hit. Resilient, War Magic, Lucky, the Transmuter's Stone, Diviner and others can, without much difficulty, make you highly unlikely to fail a Con save.

To sum it up, a combination of some of the above defenses pretty much negates the monk's sole win condition, and your own win conditions are numerous and way harder for them to counter. Pick what suits you more.

The Wizard doesn't get to come in with Contingency pre-buffed.

I'm unsure if Wish/Similacrum combo is allowed. For now we can assume it's allowed, but if it's one of those just "Pure Busted Combo's" then it might be off the table if the fight get's run a couple of times.

Broom of flying handles flight. Don't assume flight autowins.

Banishment doesn't auto win because the Monk comes back.

Assume technical wins don't work. We aren't trying to trick a victory. We are trying to actually win within the spirit of the fight.

Assume the DM is going to allow things like Grapples, Chokes, Disarming, Shoves and so forth.

Blade Singer seems like an incredible choice here. Being able to fight for a total of 6 minutes seems good.

[Dork_Forge]

Realistically, just be as well rounded as you can be. Despite some of the 'conventional wisdom' floating around here, you're not going to get a surefire strategy against a Monk you know nothing about. Their defenses are too well rounded, their offense varied and that's before you get to the bevy of magic items they can choose to negate what you throw at them.

Just aim to be as well rounded as you can be, because it's all you can really do.

And for those touting Forcecages and similar ways to lock down Monks, Misty Step is a feat away and multiple magic items provide teleportation.

Edit: I will say that your best hope is to avoid melee range at all costs

[stoutstien]

The Wizard doesn't get to come in with Contingency pre-buffed.

I'm unsure if Wish/Similacrum combo is allowed. For now we can assume it's allowed, but if it's one of those just "Pure Busted Combo's" then it might be off the table if the fight get's run a couple of times.

Broom of flying handles flight. Don't assume flight autowins.

Banishment doesn't auto win because the Monk comes back.

Assume technical wins don't work. We aren't trying to trick a victory. We are trying to actually win within the spirit of the fight.

Assume the DM is going to allow things like Grapples, Chokes, Disarming, Shoves and so forth.

Blade Singer seems like an incredible choice here. Being able to fight for a total of 6 minutes seems good.
I'd probably take abjur over bladesinger if you are going to just face tank(wouldn't advise this) . 45 ward points have a good chance to eat a nova even if you lose in the coin flip. The Ward isnt something you have to worry about not being up. Also you aren't locked out of most armor and shields so your passive AC will probably be higher.

The spells that stands out to me would be telekinesis and crown of stars.

[Unoriginal]

I like monks but honestly but if neither has the option to be pre-buffed before going in the monk is going to get obliterated unless they go first, get lucky with SS spam, and get lucky with damage rolls. The only clear options I see is if they go kensei and have favorable terrain where they can use a bow and kite the wizard or long death to hopefully just win by attrition but hardly a sound strategy. I would say shadow for silence but not that subtle is available via a feat that wouldn't work.


If we take a lvl 20 Wizard with a common amount of CON, like 16, it means 142 HPs.

With average damage from a lvl 20 Monk, that means 15 attacks landing.

If the Monk has a +3 weapon (as the rules of the contest allow), that's 11.

So in order to win, and assuming the Monk did the wise thing and got a +3 weapon or equivalent, OP needs to be able to beat the Monk before they get hit 11 times.

[Eldariel]

The big thing that is currently somewhat underestimated are the magic items. Legendary + 2 Very Rares + 2 Rares is huge.

Legendaries in particular include completely game-altering items:
- Ring of Three Wishes/Luckblade: The only way a Monk can gain power comparable to that of a Wizard and the option you should fear the most. Note that Wishes cast from items can't even be countered.
- Deck of Many Things: Potentially able to give completely gamebusting options (also self-KO).
- Cubic Gate: The summon function can be fairly combat-warping since there's no real limit to what you can do with 3 Gates. Lots of DM adjudication.
- Some minionmancy like Ring of Djinni Summoning, Horn of Valhalla, Iron, Scroll of Tarrasque Summoning, and Gold Canary Figurine of Wondrous Power. Mostly not that important but Horn of Valhalla generates an average of 18 berserkers, which can be a bit of a hassle to deal with even if they aren't very threatening, and Djinni have some annoying abilities.
- Spell Gem: They could get e.g. Shapechange this way.
- Talisman of Ultimate Evil/Pure Good: DC 20 save-or-die with 120' range isn't that impressive but it's something to keep in mind.

Add to this e.g. Cube of Force and Rod of Absorption and it's no longer quite as trivial; these don't make the Monk stronger than the Wizard but they give the Monk some of the Wizard's toys (as it happens, spending your Legendary on Ring of Three Wishes or Luckblade is probably a good idea - this frees your 9th level slot up for Shapechange while still letting you Wish bull****). Obviously both will have e.g. Weapon of Warning or Sentinel Shield since Initiative bonuses are great.


And yes, obviously combine Forcecage with e.g. Pyrotechnics or Fog Cloud to ensure that the Monk can't teleport out easily without burning at least one of their magic items on an unreliable Teleport.

[stoutstien]

If we take a lvl 20 Wizard with a common amount of CON, like 16, it means 142 HPs.

With average damage from a lvl 20 Monk, that means 15 attacks landing.

If the Monk has a +3 weapon (as the rules of the contest allow), that's 11.

So in order to win, and assuming the Monk did the wise thing and got a +3 weapon or equivalent, OP needs to be able to beat the Monk before they get hit 11 times.

Lol. My from the hip estimate was 10
successful attacks or 6 with Sharpshooter, assuming no disadvantage, so nice to see I wasn't to far off. Why I think kensei is the best bet. Stacking the subclass's +3 on something like an oathbow and burning ki on turning near misses into damage they could catch the wizard on the back foot.

[Dork_Forge]

If we take a lvl 20 Wizard with a common amount of CON, like 16, it means 142 HPs.

With average damage from a lvl 20 Monk, that means 15 attacks landing.

If the Monk has a +3 weapon (as the rules of the contest allow), that's 11.

So in order to win, and assuming the Monk did the wise thing and got a +3 weapon or equivalent, OP needs to be able to beat the Monk before they get hit 11 times.

And this is assuming that it's one of the fairly few Monks that don't have damage increases built in, mix in the chance of Stun hitting and the best bet is to avoid getting hit as much as possible if they don't win initiative, the Monk will have the advantage in a drawn out fight.

[Eldariel]

And this is assuming that it's one of the fairly few Monks that don't have damage increases built in, mix in the chance of Stun hitting and the best bet is to avoid getting hit as much as possible if they don't win initiative, the Monk will have the advantage in a drawn out fight.

Unless the Wizard casts Shapechange, in which case they can bleed the Monk out of ki with Legendary Resistances on top of high Con bonuses to safeguard against stunning strike. It might actually be fun to beat the Monk in melee just to show how hopeless it is for them.

With Ring of Three Wishes you could even Simulacrum yourself with Shapechange still available letting your Simulacrum win the first fight with Shapechange and then you can Wish for another Simulacrum for the second one if doing multiples.

[Segev]

If you had a means of bypassing the casting time, I would strongly recommend mirage arcane (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Mirage%20Arcane#content), but I suspect casting it ahead of time is cheating. That said, if you're an illusionist wizard, and IC cheating is acceptable without it being also considered OOC cheating, you could cast mirage arcane ahead of time to encompass the arena, from well outside of it if needs be. Make the illusion look just like reality when you do. Then, when you get into the fight, use Malleable Illusions to change the illusion. Now the interior of the arena is whatever terrain you want it to be. You can keep changing it, too. I believe word of the creators is that RAI is that creatures can actually drown in illusory lakes, so make it an aquarium and see if he remembered water breathing gear.

On flying, the spell might be a good thing to have prepared as a fallback, but it requires Concentration, and so you're better off getting a Broom of Flying or a carpet of flying for yourself. Since you have no preparation, I will assume using planar binding a few days in advance to pact with one or more fiends, elementals, or celestials you'll bring in with you is off the table. Otherwise, I'd recommend a beefy flying mount.

Regardless of anything else, the monk is almost certainly going to be using direct attacks. Only a couple of subclasses get AoEs. Therefore, you will want mirror image (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Mirror%20Image#content) and probably mislead (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Mislead#content).

Depending on how strict the "no preparation" rules are, major image (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Major%20Image#content) can be made permanent when cast with a 6th level slot. An image of you that follows you around - or better yet, multiple of them - would be great. If you're an illusionist, you can use Leomund's secret chest (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Secret%20Chest#content) to store major images of, say, individual coins, and call it up into the arena and start turning them into illusions of you with Malleable Illusions.

Then you cast greater invisibility if you're not using your concentration for something else.

Because shadow monks can be extremely stealthy, you'll want to have your familiar in a form that is as good at Perception as possible, and have it constantly ready to start looking around for him. If he turns out not to be a stealthy character, so much the better, but you should be prepared for it. Alternatively, be prepared to cast flock of familiars (from the Lost Laboratory of Kwalish, an adventure module; there's a thread on it somewhere around here. Second level, conjures 3 familiars with better sensory-sharing range, but I think it does require concentration).

If you find yourself pinched for spells prepared with all the contingency spells you want, pack a few scrolls of the more niche spells. This will let you have 1-3 castings of spells that could be game-changers without wasting spell prep slots on them if they turn out to be useless.

For some concentration-free pseudo-allies, pick some elementals or the like that you'd like to summon with conjure elemental, and use a Hat of Disguise or Disguise Self to look like the monk. This works best if the monk is hiding. Cast one of the conjuration spells that requires concentration to maintain control over the creature, arrogantly and rudely command it to hunt down a person who looks like you do, then go hide/turn invisible/something and drop your disguise and the concentration on the spell. Now, there's an angry elemental, fiend, or similar that is out for revenge against somebody who looks like the monk and will probably spitefully avoid hunting for the guy "the monk" told him to look for (i.e. you). You may need to make sure your Charisma(Deception) is reasonably well-trained for that to work, especially if you try doing it 2-3 times in a row to fill the area with dangerous monsters hunting the monk. Invisible stalkers are pretty good for this, though; once you lose concentration on it, they can pick their own quarry, and almost certainly will pick "the guy who summoned me," who will be the monk. (Check with your DM in advance about whether they go off of appearance, or if they have a magical identifying means that lets them just know YOU summoned them no matter what you look like.)

Uniquely useful in 1 v 1 vs. a monk, because it runs off of Intelligence saving throws (still not reliable, but likely lower than his others), is phantasmal force. Because it's just you, the monk, and the DM, you can tell the DM what you really cast, but describe it as whatever spell effect the monk is seeing. This one does require concentration, so don't plan to stack it with anything ELSE that requires concentration. Phantasmal killer (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantasmalKiller.htm) might also work similarly as you describe some horrifying beast you summon up, but it gives you less creative control and allows a Wisdom save, which the monk is likely to pass.

Finally, you'll want to keep magic missile and power word: kill on hand. Sleep may be a valid fallback, if your high level spells are exhausted by the time power word: kill would have been relevant. As long as you can see him, magic missile WILL damage him. Whittle him to less than 100 hp, and then use power word: kill on him. Whittle him further down, and upcast sleep as high as you can, and that will put him out, too, if you can't use power word: kill.

[Mastikator]

Unless the Wizard casts Shapechange, in which case they can bleed the Monk out of ki with Legendary Resistances on top of high Con bonuses to safeguard against stunning strike. It might actually be fun to beat the Monk in melee just to show how hopeless it is for them.

With Ring of Three Wishes you could even Simulacrum yourself with Shapechange still available letting your Simulacrum win the first fight with Shapechange and then you can Wish for another Simulacrum for the second one if doing multiples.

Shapeshange doesn't let you use legendary actions if you assume a form that has that. (also true for true polymorph) BUT it is still a great way of tanking a whole lot of stunning strikes and damage.

[Chaos Jackal]

The big thing that is currently somewhat underestimated are the magic items. Legendary + 2 Very Rares + 2 Rares is huge.

Legendaries in particular include completely game-altering items:
- Ring of Three Wishes/Luckblade: The only way a Monk can gain power comparable to that of a Wizard and the option you should fear the most. Note that Wishes cast from items can't even be countered.
- Deck of Many Things: Potentially able to give completely gamebusting options (also self-KO).
- Cubic Gate: The summon function can be fairly combat-warping since there's no real limit to what you can do with 3 Gates. Lots of DM adjudication.
- Some minionmancy like Ring of Djinni Summoning, Horn of Valhalla, Iron, Scroll of Tarrasque Summoning, and Gold Canary Figurine of Wondrous Power. Mostly not that important but Horn of Valhalla generates an average of 18 berserkers, which can be a bit of a hassle to deal with even if they aren't very threatening, and Djinni have some annoying abilities.
- Spell Gem: They could get e.g. Shapechange this way.
- Talisman of Ultimate Evil/Pure Good: DC 20 save-or-die with 120' range isn't that impressive but it's something to keep in mind.

Add to this e.g. Cube of Force and Rod of Absorption and it's no longer quite as trivial; these don't make the Monk stronger than the Wizard but they give the Monk some of the Wizard's toys (as it happens, spending your Legendary on Ring of Three Wishes or Luckblade is probably a good idea - this frees your 9th level slot up for Shapechange while still letting you Wish bull****). Obviously both will have e.g. Weapon of Warning or Sentinel Shield since Initiative bonuses are great.


And yes, obviously combine Forcecage with e.g. Pyrotechnics or Fog Cloud to ensure that the Monk can't teleport out easily without burning at least one of their magic items on an unreliable Teleport.

While I largely agree with this, the problem with items (as you yourself pointed out for a couple scenarios) is that you can't really counter them; there are too many items, some of them are just that strong, and since there's no disjunction in 5e you can't just break them all and laugh maniacally. And since effects like those of the Ring of Three Wishes can actually threaten you if you just pop into existence and don't have clones, contingencies and simulacrums, winning initiative becomes even more crucial. Not surprisingly, this does bring the Diviner even more on the forefront, cos Portent is just that good. But honestly, if the whole thing goes into a wish race, I don't think classes are that relevant anymore. They matter, but not as much.

Honestly, in the face of such a scenario, best bet is probably to optimize for initiative, grab a couple fighter levels for Action Surge, wish for a simulacrum and try to OTK (the Rod of Absorption, assuming they have it, needs a reaction, so you might be able to). Generally, initiative becomes ever more important the crazier items and shenanigans we assume are allowed, so in the end a Diviner build with a Rod of their own and the ability to shut down the strongest and most likely to be copied through enemy wish tricks (like disintegrate or teleportation for forcecage and dispel magic or whatever for things like shapechange) is probably as close to ideal as you'll ever get. Even a wizard, especially with next to no preparation allowed, can't account for every single item and spell in the game.

[JackPhoenix]

If you can hit a paralyze, then having a vial of Purple worm venom to make the most of the guaranteed crit would be good. 24d6 poison damage is no joke (unless they're a frog).

Besides being a joke to a level 10+ monk, poison has no interaction with paralyzation, being save- rather than attack- based.

[Dork_Forge]

Unless the Wizard casts Shapechange, in which case they can bleed the Monk out of ki with Legendary Resistances on top of high Con bonuses to safeguard against stunning strike. It might actually be fun to beat the Monk in melee just to show how hopeless it is for them.

With Ring of Three Wishes you could even Simulacrum yourself with Shapechange still available letting your Simulacrum win the first fight with Shapechange and then you can Wish for another Simulacrum for the second one if doing multiples.

There is no clear winner here, there is no 'casters are just better!' here.

The Monk has superior:
-HP
-AC
-Mobility
-Defenses

It is immediately uphill for the Wizard to compensate for these things with spell choices, and to do so in a prudent fashion because they will hurt with each resource burned more than the Monk will.

Ring of three wishes is cheese and amusing. Why on Earth would you assume the Monk wouldn't have one? A Rod of Absorption?

There's so many magic items of such high level on the table here that you can't just assume something will work how you want it to, especially when literally nothing is known about the Monk.

The Shapechange over confidence, and I label it as such because you used the term 'helpless' against a build you know nothing of, shows that readily. You assume you can just bleed the Monk dry of Ki? At level 20? That's a lot of Ki, and that's before considering that the Monk might, and probably should, have a Ki DC 22 and back up Ki from a belt of Dragon hide.

In a situation like this all we can do is give OP reasonable expectations and general advice, there's no reason to assume this will be a stomp on either side,but both sides can certainly take the win.

[DarknessEternal]

20 Con, Tough, Moderately Armored.

Magic Missile as Spell Mastery.

On turn 1, cast Invulnerability. Now you have 10 minutes worth of Magic Missiles to win.

That's the gist. Need other spells to guarantee you win, but it is a guarantee. There's no way for a Monk to win this fight.

[Dork_Forge]

20 Con, Tough, Moderately Armored.

Magic Missile as Spell Mastery.

On turn 1, cast Invulnerability. Now you have 10 minutes worth of Magic Missiles to win.

That's the gist. Need other spells to guarantee you win, but it is a guarantee. There's no way for a Monk to win this fight.

Stun? There's going to be a turn where you have to cast something get around Invisibility, they could just have access to Shield or a similar effect...

[J-H]

20 Con, Tough, Moderately Armored.

Magic Missile as Spell Mastery.

On turn 1, cast Invulnerability. Now you have 10 minutes worth of Magic Missiles to win.

That's the gist. Need other spells to guarantee you win, but it is a guarantee. There's no way for a Monk to win this fight.

This is a good answer that negates some strategies. I would add See Invisibility, as the monk will probably use Empty Body to become invisible and resistant to all non-force damage for a minute of combat.

Problem: Stunning Strike requires a hit, not dealing damage. Invulnerability requires Concentration, and if SS lands, you lose Concentration on Invulnerability and you're probably dead.

[JackPhoenix]

Mostly not that important but Horn of Valhalla generates an average of 18 berserkers.

Unless you're a level 20 monk, in which case you're limited to 10.5 berserkers, because you lack proficiency with either medium armor or all martial weapons to use the bronze or iron horn.

[Xihirli]

There is no clear winner here, there is no 'casters are just better!' here.

The Monk has superior:
-HP
-AC
-Mobility
-Defenses


None of these are a guarantee for monks. Monks are harshly limited in which magic items they can take to up their AC. Wizards have a number of ways to get access to good armor, Monks will cap their AC at 20 or 21 with the +2 WIS book, 23 with those gauntlets and that's a pretty expensive input for AC when you're up against a class that is not known for their attack rolls. And wizards have access to the Shield spell, Mirror Image, Blink, and other concentration-free buffs.
Monks passively have better mobility, but again their are spell choices that let us rival this. And the only monk that gets flight is the 4 elements one. I don't think you'll face that.
And it's harder to get good CON or HP-boosting feats on a monk than a wizard. Monk needs those ASIs more. An abjurer will have more hp than a monk with the same CON score, and increase that dearth of hp with every abjuration spell they cast.
If you want to optimize a wizard for defense and keep-away, you have more options than monks do. Sure, a monk is faster, but if only one of you can go up...

[KorvinStarmast]

1. Get the Alert feat.
2. Max Dex and Int.
3. Be a Diviner, so that you have portent.
4. Win Initiative. If he wins initiative you are probably stun locked.
5. If you shapechange consider dragons that do force damage or radiant damage with their breath. I think a few of the gem dragons do that. And your CON saves are pretty good.
6. Dagger of warning: initiative boost.
7. Consider Prismatic Sphere as a way to annoy him. :smallbiggrin: (Non concentration)
8. Robe of the Arch Magi: boosts to spell save DCs.
9. Hold Person. Problem with that is that you can make the first one land with portent but I am not sure you'll be able to do enough damage and do enough "your roll is this low number" iterations before the monk saves.
10. Level 18 at will spells: misty step and shield.
12. Or, be a bladesinger. Take that boost to AC however you can get it. And hope that the dice are kind.

Gear magic items and feat choices toward winning initiative and CON saves. The monk's win condition is to win initiative and stun-lock you.

Banishment could be good. It's Charisma save (same as planeshift), which is unlikely to be strongest for a Monk. Planeshift requires touch, does it not? I'd not want to get that close. Banishment would be a bit better.

Oh yeah, and Shapechange is massive too. Consider this: Shapechanging into a ghost allows you to go ethereal at will and use the Possession ability, an instant win on a Charisma save. Now that's hilarious. :smallbiggrin:

[Dork_Forge]

None of these are a guarantee for monks. Monks are harshly limited in which magic items they can take to up their AC. Wizards have a number of ways to get access to good armor, Monks will cap their AC at 20 or 21 with the +2 WIS book, 23 with those gauntlets and that's a pretty expensive input for AC when you're up against a class that is not known for their attack rolls. And wizards have access to the Shield spell, Mirror Image, Blink, and other concentration-free buffs.
Monks passively have better mobility, but again their are spell choices that let us rival this. And the only monk that gets flight is the 4 elements one. I don't think you'll face that.
And it's harder to get good CON or HP-boosting feats on a monk than a wizard. Monk needs those ASIs more. An abjurer will have more hp than a monk with the same CON score, and increase that dearth of hp with every abjuration spell they cast.
If you want to optimize a wizard for defense and keep-away, you have more options than monks do. Sure, a monk is faster, but if only one of you can go up...

You seem to have missed the entire point of what I said. It is a given that the Monk is superior in those ways, because they're given by the core class. Here is the piece of my post you didn't quote:



It is immediately uphill for the Wizard to compensate for these things with spell choices, and to do so in a prudent fashion because they will hurt with each resource burned more than the Monk will.


And your response to my post was to then list spell choices and other non-core Wizard build choices. What you're saying is not disagreeing with me, it's proving my point.

And for the record, assuming that flight will immediately invalidate a Monk is unwise, I mean one of the flying races is an ideal Monk or there's a raft of items available.

Again, there's no clear winner here.

[Amnestic]

With regards to Magic items, some considerations:

Legendary:-
Blackstaff (Dragon Heist)
Cloak of Invisibility
Robe of the Archmagi
Ring of 3 Wishes/Luckblade
Staff of the Magi

VR:-
+3 Arcane Grimoire (Tasha's)
Animated Shield
Belt of Fire Giant Strength - somewhat unorthodox, admittedly, but if they're going to try to take your stuff or grapple you, this gives you significant defense against their skill checks.
Horn of Valhalla - Probably best to avoid this unless the monk is also using magic items that can summon. Shenanigans may occur otherwise, and it is meant to be a duel between characters not duel between magic items.
Tome of Clear Thought - doesn't cost attunement slot, straight +2 Int.

Rare:-
Cloak of Displacement - Force him to attack at disadvantage until he hits you.
Periapt of Proof against poison - again, somewhat weird choice, but it doesn't require attunement and on the offchance they use poisoned weapons or are a mercy monk, you neuter significantly. If your attunement slots are otherwise occupied by other items...
Horn of Valhalla - see above.
Amulet of Health - boost your HP+Consaves without sacrificing ASIs.
Barrier Tattoo (Rare), requires attunement - Better than mage armour, saves your ASIs from going into dex if you want them elsewhere. Useless alongside Robe of the Archmagi though.
Spellwrought Tatto 4th/5th level - it's got set DCs, but doesn't require attunement and can be any spell list. Worth a consideration if you're seeking something off-list for the fight itself, and don't want to replicate with Wish.
Ring of Spell Storing - stock up with Shields if you're trying to extend your spellslots through multiple encounters.

Uncommon:-
Broom of Flying - Concentration-less flight is very good vs. a monk. If they're smart they'll have some too, but doing so means they don't have a speed advantage anymore. No attunement.
Wand of Magic Missiles - Lets you toss out a 7th level magic missile per wand, so 9d4+9 (22.5 average) with no save*, which helps save spell slots for a PWK combo, if you are going to be doing multiple encounters.

*If the monk is smart they may have taken Spellwrought Tattoo: Shield to circumvent these, so you might need to burn a counterspell to punch through.

[Eldariel]

There is no clear winner here, there is no 'casters are just better!' here.

The Monk has superior:
-HP
-AC
-Mobility
-Defenses

None of those are true if Wizard uses their class features.


It is immediately uphill for the Wizard to compensate for these things with spell choices, and to do so in a prudent fashion because they will hurt with each resource burned more than the Monk will.

Ring of three wishes is cheese and amusing. Why on Earth would you assume the Monk wouldn't have one? A Rod of Absorption?

Obviously they would. They just wouldn't help as much; you don't get a casting of Shapechange off your Monk Simulacrum. Shapechanged Wizard will have high enough numbers to win the fight if the items are used to that end.

There's so many magic items of such high level on the table here that you can't just assume something will work how you want it to, especially when literally nothing is known about the Monk.


The Shapechange over confidence, and I label it as such because you used the term 'helpless' against a build you know nothing of, shows that readily. You assume you can just bleed the Monk dry of Ki? At level 20? That's a lot of Ki, and that's before considering that the Monk might, and probably should, have a Ki DC 22 and back up Ki from a belt of Dragon hide.

Okay, so if we have a Wizard going this route they're probably Bladesinger in which case we're looking at:
Bladesinger Shapechanged into Ancient White Dragon. The Wizard thus has:
25 AC (30 with Shield)
330 HP
+14 for 33/20/20 with an action (realistically half that since the Monk should obviously use Empty Body)
+14 Con save with access to rerolls from Lucky and Legendary Resistance
Blindsight 60'
Burrow speed, 80' fly speed, etc.

The Wizard could further cast Blink if they wanted to but I just don't see how the Monk would compensate for this with magic items. They can get high numbers on one front but who really cares? The Wizard could further augment this with items if they wanted to but the numeric difference is just such that I don't think it really matters. The Wizard should probably use a spell absorption item themselves to further ensure item-based dispel type effects don't matter.

[AvatarVecna]

It comes down to who wins initiative, I think.

Monk has Sentinel feat, and wins initiative.

Bonus Action: Step Of The Wind
Action: Luck Blade --> Wish --> Antimagic Field
Move: Move 120 ft, and presumably adjacent to Wizard.

Antimagic Field is an hour (no concentration) duration spell that shuts down basically everything. Presumably, the wizard is not going to win a punching contest with a monk without making use of either magic or magic items, so the wizard needs to get out of this antimagic field to have a chance at winning, at this point. To escape this round, the wizard needs to avoid the OA that will lock down his movement. That's a matter of attack vs AC, and not much else will really factor into it. If the wizard can't escape this round, then likely on future wizard turns, he's going to be stunned, or grappled, or both; it's just a given that the monk's attack routine will be hard to completely avoid, and anything the monk does has strong lockdown potential (especially with Sentinel feat). Therefore, the wizard needs to escape now, and he needs to do it without magic or magic items used in the escape itself.

Bladesinging is described as "an elven magic called the Bladesong", so whether it works in an Antimagic Field is debatable. Still, it's possible this is a wizard is fullplate + shield with Fighting Initiate feat for Defense style, and is rocking an objectively nonmagical AC 21. Monk probably has +11 to-hit. That's a 55% chance the monk hits, at the lowest. And to get odds this "good", the wizard needs to invest in getting to heavy armor (probably mountain dwarf with a feat?). It's not awful odds, to be sure. But "wear heavy armor" isn't usually the best anti-beatstick strategy, whereas "get an AMF" is a pretty solid anti-mage tactic/strategy.

So, since losing initiative makes the fight "55% chance at the lowest to get locked down forever", we need to not lose initiative. Alert feat and War Magic give the wizard the best chance of winning, with a maximum of Init +15 (unless we're gonna start investing in tomes), with monk at max +10. Advantage to both duelists for weapons of warning. This gives our wizard a ~79.24% chance of winning initiative, and thus having a round to do things before getting locked down by antimagic. Note: if you just fly up/teleport, the monk can hold off on the antimagic and fly up/teleport after you. He still has two other wish charges he can make use of. But still, between "55% chance at worst to get locked down forever" and "have a turn where you can do things without a monk being ALL UP YOUR ASS THE WHOLE TIME", one of those is clearly the better option.

EDIT: I guess this monk strategy doesn't work if the wizard starts more than 120 ft away (well, or a lil further if monk has race boosting speed a bit - like a Tabaxi or Wood Elf). But given that monk is already by default at disadvantage in a duel like this, I feel like having the combatants start 300+ ft away from each other is maybe a bit overly punishing to the meleer.

[Eldariel]

So, since losing initiative makes the fight "55% chance at the lowest to get locked down forever", we need to not lose initiative. Alert feat and War Magic give the wizard the best chance of winning, with a maximum of Init +15 (unless we're gonna start investing in tomes), with monk at max +10. Advantage to both duelists for weapons of warning. This gives our wizard a ~79.24% chance of winning initiative, and thus having a round to do things before getting locked down by antimagic. Note: if you just fly up/teleport, the monk can hold off on the antimagic and fly up/teleport after you. He still has two other wish charges he can make use of. But still, between "55% chance at worst to get locked down forever" and "have a turn where you can do things without a monk being ALL UP YOUR ASS THE WHOLE TIME", one of those is clearly the better option.

Diviner is probably better since setting the Monk roll to x bypasses potential Monk advantage on Initiative and such.

[AvatarVecna]

Diviner is probably better since setting the Monk roll to x bypasses potential Monk advantage on Initiative and such.

Probably yeah. That makes it your advantage vs the monk's (effectively) super-disadvantage (since any of your three portents could be an awful roll). Asusming +10 and +10 (since no +5 from War Magic), that makes the wizard's odds of going first ~91.17%.

EDIT: Depending on the exact portent and init rolls, it might be better to replace your own init with a high enough roll to win, that way you can save the really low roll to force the monk to lose a saving throw or miss on a critical stunning strike.

[Dork_Forge]

None of those are true if Wizard uses their class features.

Why do people keep cutting off my post at the list?

It's 100% true because the point I was making is that is the default for the Monk. In those areas the Wizard is behind.

The whole point is that they need to compensate for it, through spells or otherwise. That is a gap that needs to be overcome.

You saying no because they have spells or subclasses is just proving my point.


Obviously they would. They just wouldn't help as much; you don't get a casting of Shapechange off your Monk Simulacrum. Shapechanged Wizard will have high enough numbers to win the fight if the items are used to that end.

There's so many magic items of such high level on the table here that you can't just assume something will work how you want it to, especially when literally nothing is known about the Monk.

You don't get to just say obviously they would. Compensating requires resources and action economy that needs to be considered.

And please stop throwing the word Shapechange around like it's an auto win button.


Okay, so if we have a Wizard going this route they're probably Bladesinger in which case we're looking at:
Bladesinger Shapechanged into Ancient White Dragon. The Wizard thus has:
25 AC (30 with Shield)
330 HP
+14 for 33/20/20 with an action (realistically half that since the Monk should obviously use Empty Body)
+14 Con save with access to rerolls from Lucky and Legendary Resistance
Blindsight 60'
Burrow speed, 80' fly speed, etc.

The Wizard could further cast Blink if they wanted to but I just don't see how the Monk would compensate for this with magic items. They can get high numbers on one front but who really cares? The Wizard could further augment this with items if they wanted to but the numeric difference is just such that I don't think it really matters. The Wizard should probably use a spell absorption item themselves to further ensure item-based dispel type effects don't matter.

So you're conflating this to be a Monk vs a Dragon that's also a Wizard, that can't possible lose concentration?

Did I miss the part of this where your assumption was even possible? Did I skip over the part where the DM said you can assume to change into whatever you want, when the spell has the limitation of needing to have seen the creature first? Or the ruling that a dragon could still wield and use the magic items?

Or the part where the Wizard gets to Shapechange without issue?

I'm not sure this will really lead anywhere productive, my stance is 'this isn't a sure thing and you need to be careful and prepared' and yours is (from what I can tell) 'the Monk has no hope, casters are just superior to a laughable degree.'

I don't agree with you whatsoever, no do I think it would even play out that way.

[Segev]

If you do go illusionist, you also may not need mirage arcane to reshape the battlefield nearly at will. Having permanent major images and at-will silent image (from either a feat for the Misty Visions invocation, or one of your at-will first level spells) will let you have plenty of illusions scattered around the field. Hallucinatory terrain can't interfere with nor create structures, but can still do interesting things to what the area looks like and provide some good fodder for this:

Illusory Reality.

Illusory Reality allows you, as you cast an illusion or as a bonus action while the illusion lasts, cause one item in the illusion to become real for one minute. Note that it doesn't limit this to a number of uses per day nor even per illusion: you can keep making things real every turn!

Want a wall? Create a silent image of one and use Illusory Reality to make it real, or use Malleable Illusions to make your major image into a wall that you again use Illusory Reality to make real. You can't make things to hurt your monk opponent, but you could make illusory cages, walls, etc. He can run over them easily, but he still has to circumvent them.

Also, look at creation (https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Creation#content), and consider what can be done with Malleable Illusions and that spell.

[nickl_2000]

War Wizard with Alert.

You now have Dex + Int + 5 to your initiative to go first. In most PVP situations, going first is the best way to ensure a win.

Round 1: Cast Fly and fly out of range of the monk
Round 2: Use your legendary item: Scroll of Tarrasque Summoning (if the scroll is to cheesy, summon a Fire Elemental with Conjure Elemental and then immediately lose concentration freeing it)
Round 3A: Plink the monk with Magic Missiles while it is fighting the Tarrasque.
Round 3B: Conjure more and more fire elementals, slowly draining the monk of HP every time it hits one or is hit by one.

Especially since the monk is going to use their magic items to resist magic. You don't worry about it and let the creature just eat them.

[Amnestic]

Another consideration, if you're not using it on anything else, is Contingency: Dimension Door to get out of range of the monk before they can AMF via luckblade, assuming the trigger is "lose initiative" (or "another creature casts a spell", etc. etc.)

This does require a suitable fight arena though, and depending on how it's set up you could end up losing by default if you DD out of the area.

[AvatarVecna]

Another consideration, if you're not using it on anything else, is Contingency: Dimension Door to get out of range of the monk before they can AMF via luckblade, assuming the trigger is "lose initiative" (or "another creature casts a spell", etc. etc.)

This does require a suitable fight arena though, and depending on how it's set up you could end up losing by default if you DD out of the area.

It also requires you to have 10 minutes of casting pre-fight, which...


The Wizard has not had prep time for Wizard shenanigans like Simulacrum cheese.

...I'm fairly certain we don't have.

[Unoriginal]

It comes down to who wins initiative, I think.

That is true for basically all PvP in 5e.

[Amnestic]

It also requires you to have 10 minutes of casting pre-fight, which...



...I'm fairly certain we don't have.

It wasn't clear to me exactly since the OP also said:



The monk and wizard both know the fight is coming


To which I interpreted it as they know say...by the time they're prepping spells in the morning (precasting long buffs like mage armour, gift of alacrity, and Contingency in this case) but not so much as to set up a simulacrum village over weeks+weeks.

[BoutsofInsanity]

With regards to Magic items, some considerations:

Legendary:-
Blackstaff (Dragon Heist)
Cloak of Invisibility
Robe of the Archmagi
Ring of 3 Wishes/Luckblade
Staff of the Magi

VR:-
+3 Arcane Grimoire (Tasha's)
Animated Shield
Belt of Fire Giant Strength - somewhat unorthodox, admittedly, but if they're going to try to take your stuff or grapple you, this gives you significant defense against their skill checks.
Horn of Valhalla - Probably best to avoid this unless the monk is also using magic items that can summon. Shenanigans may occur otherwise, and it is meant to be a duel between characters not duel between magic items.
Tome of Clear Thought - doesn't cost attunement slot, straight +2 Int.

Rare:-
Cloak of Displacement - Force him to attack at disadvantage until he hits you.
Periapt of Proof against poison - again, somewhat weird choice, but it doesn't require attunement and on the offchance they use poisoned weapons or are a mercy monk, you neuter significantly. If your attunement slots are otherwise occupied by other items...
Horn of Valhalla - see above.
Amulet of Health - boost your HP+Consaves without sacrificing ASIs.
Barrier Tattoo (Rare), requires attunement - Better than mage armour, saves your ASIs from going into dex if you want them elsewhere. Useless alongside Robe of the Archmagi though.
Spellwrought Tatto 4th/5th level - it's got set DCs, but doesn't require attunement and can be any spell list. Worth a consideration if you're seeking something off-list for the fight itself, and don't want to replicate with Wish.
Ring of Spell Storing - stock up with Shields if you're trying to extend your spellslots through multiple encounters.

Uncommon:-
Broom of Flying - Concentration-less flight is very good vs. a monk. If they're smart they'll have some too, but doing so means they don't have a speed advantage anymore. No attunement.
Wand of Magic Missiles - Lets you toss out a 7th level magic missile per wand, so 9d4+9 (22.5 average) with no save*, which helps save spell slots for a PWK combo, if you are going to be doing multiple encounters.

*If the monk is smart they may have taken Spellwrought Tattoo: Shield to circumvent these, so you might need to burn a counterspell to punch through.

Really appreciate the item list.

This is why I threw this to yall because I knew you guys would think of stuff I hadn't thought of. The Summoning Items and Rings of Wishes were stuff I didn't think about.

I'm going to say that the Wish Shenanigans violate the spirit of the duel. So we can remove from both characters the ideas of Ring of Wishes, and the summoning items.

The Wizard doesn't get to prepare in any way for the duel. They get to show up and start. We know that a Wizard with time is incredibly powerful, that's not what the exercise I'm seeking to run is trying to answer. If the Wizard makes time within the duel to cast spells with a higher casting time, that's a different story.

I'm getting a lot of really good ideas. Things I've seen that I'm going to take into account.


Shapechange
Wish into Simulacrum
Force Cage
Divination, Abjuration and Bladesinger come up a lot
Magic missile for days



I'm going to run this combat several times with different conditions on it and just throw it up on youtube I think. I've got a good one or two Monk builds but the Wizard just eluded me. I've got some staple Wizard stuff but I don't know the good spell selection at high levels along with items.

My initial hypothesis is that there are just a few spells that just absolutely over-tuned and that without those specific ones it becomes a more fair fight.Which to be fair, those spells may never show up for a Wizard in a D&D game for them to find or use. Further, it's a team game and what's good in one campaign isn't in another. I won't know till I run everything and test the hypothesis. Things I think may happen.


We are going to find out that Prismatic Wall, Force Cage, Shapechange, Wish and Simulacrum are hilariously incredibly powerful
Grappling / Item Disarming is better than we think - especially going off of Page 195 PHB top right corner "Contests in Combat"
Magic Missile into Power Word Kill is good
The Wizard will have a tough time with an opponent who has cover and the ability to disengage and harass from distance
In a straight fight with a Bladesinger or any other wizard I think the Wizard is incredibly strong if set up right.
Gloves of Soul Catching are the best item Monks have ever gotten


Ill take more stuff though. Again, not focused on the result. I'm focused on trying to get Wizard stuff locked down.

[BoutsofInsanity]

It wasn't clear to me exactly since the OP also said:



To which I interpreted it as they know say...by the time they're prepping spells in the morning (precasting long buffs like mage armour, gift of alacrity, and Contingency in this case) but not so much as to set up a simulacrum village over weeks+weeks.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. The Wizard does not have the ability to pre-cast spells. They get to start on initiative like the Monk. However, I may run some scenarios where the Wizard does get to do so. But it will have some sort of restriction on it. Like three rounds or even 10 minutes. But the Monk would get the opportunity to have something to compensate.

Obviously this isn't reflected per say in an actual game. But in an actual game there are entire parties of players, it's typically PVE with multiple fights per long rest etc... So I don't feel super bad on the ole, Wake up and walk to the dueling location and lets do this.

[Eldariel]

The Wizard doesn't get to prepare in any way for the duel. They get to show up and start. We know that a Wizard with time is incredibly powerful, that's not what the exercise I'm seeking to run is trying to answer. If the Wizard makes time within the duel to cast spells with a higher casting time, that's a different story.

The issue with this is, it really has little to do with a real D&D game. In a normal game, a Wizard who gets to level 20 will probably have had a day or two off in their lives and even without that, they've at least had few hours off on few days to cast some spells. Most of them will have way, way more since 20 levels is a long time and it only takes hours for Wizards to do most of their stuff (as opposed to days). So basically, a level 20 Wizard with no prep is a character that almost can't exist. Meaning this tests a character that basically never applies to any game. Hell, this basically bans the Necromancer subclass. Though it does of course even things out a bit.



Shapechange
Wish into Simulacrum
Force Cage
Divination, Abjuration and Bladesinger come up a lot
Magic missile for days


Pyrotechnics (or Fog Cloud/Sleet Storm but those cost Concentration meaning those apply more if you have a Simulacrum or e.g. a familiar with Ring of Spell Storing) + Blindsight is pretty sweet too, given sufficiently cramped quarters. Autodisadvantage on everything the Monk does and autoadvantage on the Wizard's attacks (Alert gets the disadvantage part even without Blindsight). This is actually nice out of combat as well; for walking around without anyone being able to use targeted abilities on you.

As for Shapechange, don't forget that you can change shape as an action. This means a Wizard can e.g. retreat underground with a burrowing form, shift into some form that regenerates or self-heals and come back unless locked down somehow. Similarly, they can of course hit'n'run the same way; burrow in, attack, burrow out. Same with flight unless enemy has a competitive fly speed (many of Monk's flight methods waste Monk's inherent speed bonus so their fly speed is often not all that).



We are going to find out that Prismatic Wall, Force Cage, Shapechange, Wish and Simulacrum are hilariously incredibly powerful
Grappling / Item Disarming is better than we think - especially going off of Page 195 PHB top right corner "Contests in Combat"
Magic Missile into Power Word Kill is good
The Wizard will have a tough time with an opponent who has cover and the ability to disengage and harass from distance
In a straight fight with a Bladesinger or any other wizard I think the Wizard is incredibly strong if set up right.
Gloves of Soul Catching are the best item Monks have ever gotten


I'm a bit surprised by the expectation that "Wizard having tough time with an opponent who has cover and ranged harassment". Spells don't care about anything short of total cover and many have plenty of range and if a Wizard can disengage even for a moment, they can start loading up on other stuff (e.g. Blink and Mirror Image are pretty nice if you have extra time and you can start doing Wish -> Simulacrums and Tiny Servants and what-have-you). Meanwhile, this is an issue I see many Monks having: most Monks can only adequately fight in melee, have no actions that go through cover, and have nothing useful to do if they can't affect the enemy after Empty Body is up (if Astral Projection isn't useful for the scenario).

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

You do realize that if the monk has access to Wish, he can create the copy of the wizard instead of himself, right?

[Eldariel]

You do realize that if the monk has access to Wish, he can create the copy of the wizard instead of himself, right?

Yes, but there are some interesting minutiae there (e.g. since the spell targets the Wizard, the Wizard can absorb it with Rod of Absorption), which make it not really a problem.

[Kornaki]

If you do something like maze, does the monk auto lose because he left the arena?

[KorvinStarmast]

If you do something like maze, does the monk auto lose because he left the arena? Giggled, I did. :smallbiggrin:

[BerzerkerUnit]

If you’re building a Wizard to counter a monk duel, There’s no way for a monk to win in any setting they can’t get initiative and attack first. And if the Wizard is immune to stuns, I’d argue no way to win period.

If you want ~interesting, Abjurer 17, Conquest Paladin 3. Armor of Agathys, Fire Shield/shadow of moil, smites with booming blade. Metamagic adept for quick spell to get Agathys back after it drops.

Round 3, monk engages, immediately takes 120 cold and 8d8 fire, no save. You take 0 damage. Even stunned your spells will remain up.



If you can get those two rounds

[BoutsofInsanity]

If you do something like maze, does the monk auto lose because he left the arena?

Answered earlier in the thread. But great question. The answer is no. We aren't going for a technical defeat. We are trying to keep within the spirit of the exercise.

Planeshifting the Monk technically does work because they don't come back.

Polymorphing the Monk into a newt and dropping them outside the bounds of the arena wouldn't count because that's not very sporting and the Monk can walk back into the arena.

[elyktsorb]

I'm curious as to what range you could have both of these characters start at that is considered fair. A monk can move 60ft (assuming a race with a base of 30ft) by level 20, and if they dash, that's 120ft, and if they also bonus action dash, that's 180ft.

Obviously starting with them 60ft apart would be advantageous for the monk who could close that distance immediately. 120ft apart could still be seen as being in the Monk's favor, as he can still attack from that distance. But at 120ft or more, a monk could also move 180 ft away, making them 300ft away, which would put him out of range for most of a wizards spells. Sure the wizard could teleport closer, but teleporting next to the Monk would be foolish as it would waste a spell and put them in melee range, and teleporting so that their 125ft away would let the monk freely move away as much as he wants again, and has cost the wizard some form of teleportation. Not to mention if he teleports he can't use another spell that turn.

So couldn't the monk feasibly always move into an advantageous position? And with the ability to run along walls and over water, and at most only takes up to 20 damage form falling, there aren't many things that could stop him from going anywhere.

In an arena this would be a moot point, but I also don't think any arena would be so big that a monk couldn't cross most of, if not all of it, in a single turn.

[sithlordnergal]

Important question, are you able to multiclass? If so, Fighter 2/Wizard 18 wins this easily. Also, are you able to use Tasha's for ability scores, and are you using Point buy? I'm going to assume no Tasha's for ability scores.

Also, with spell choices you need to consider the following:

1) Level 20 Monks are proficient with all saving throws
2) Level 20 Monks have Evasion
3) Monks are immune to Poison and the Poisoned condition



So, there are many, many excellent spells in 5e for a Wizard. But I think there are about 4 super noteworthy spells that you really want to have, and will really want to successfully cast. These are:


Feeblemind
Tasha's Mind Whip
Synaptic Static
Wish



Wish is noteworthy on its own. ITs a free spell of any level up to 8, and I highly suggest using it to create an instant Simulacrum of yourself. The other three spells are special in their own way. Feeblemind isn't exactly required, but it basically makes the other two spells easier to hit. All three of those spells use an Int save to resist, and Feeblemind sets your target's Int to 1.

If you can successfully pull off Feeblemind, then you can use Tasha's Mind Whip to effectively shut down the Monk. Its basically a lesser Slow, but its a 2nd level spell slot, deals damage, is not Concentration, and forces a Monk to decide between an Action, Bonus Action, or Movement while denying their Reaction. Given its a 2nd level spell, you can take it as one of your Spell Mastery choices.

Meanwhile Synaptic Static is good if the Monk succeeded on the Feeblemind save. Its also an Int save, its Instantaneous, and gives a -1d6 to attack rolls and ability checks. Downside is it can't work with Feeblemind, as it only effects targets with 3 Int or higher.




Classes: Fighter 2 / Order of Scribes Wizard 18

Race: High Elf

--Ability Scores--

Strength: 8
Dexterity: 16
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 16
Wisdom: 12
Charisma: 8



--ASI Spread--

+2 to Int for 18 Int
+2 to Int for 20 Int
War Caster
Toughness



--Magic Items--

Legendary Item: +3 Plate Armor
Very Rare: Staff of Power
Very Rare: +3 Shield
Rare: Amulet of Health
Rare: Ring of Protection
Uncommon: Wand of Magic Missile



---Extra Build Details---

Make sure you have Acrobatics as one of your skills, and take the levels of Fighter first. You want the Defense Fighting Style for a +1 to AC. Given the items you have, you'll have a base AC of 30, which you can increase to 35 with Shield. Even if the Monk has 22 Dex and a +3 weapon, that Monk will need a natural 20 to hit you. You can cast Blur on yourself to give the Monk disadvantage on their attack rolls. Make sure Shield and Tasha's Mind Whip are your Spell Mastery spells. I also HIGHLY recommend casting Wish for a free, instant Simulacrum.

--Some important spells to have--

Wish
Crown of Stars
Tasha's Mind Whip
Mind Sliver
Feeblemind
Synaptic Static
Blur






Class: Blade Singer Wizard

Race: High Elf

--Ability Scores--

Strength: 8
Dexterity: 16
Constitution: 15
Intelligence: 16
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 8



--ASI Spread--

+2 to Int for 18 Int
+2 to Int for 20 Int
+2 to Dex for 18 Dex
+2 Dex for 20 Dex
Resilient Constitution



--Magic Items--

Legendary Item: Robe of the Archmagi
Very Rare: Staff of Power
Very Rare: Manual of Quickness of Action for 22 Dex
Rare: Bracer's of Defense
Rare: +2 Rapier
Uncommon: Doesn't matter



--Important Spells--

Booming Blade
Blur
Wish
Crown of Stars
Feeblemind
Synaptic Static
Shadow Blade
Shield
Tasha's Mind Whip



As before, use Wish for an instant Simulacrum. Given your items and subclass, once you use Bladesong you'll have a base 28 for your AC, and can increase that to 33 via Shield. Bonus points for your Simulacrum, they'll have a 21 AC and can boost it to 26. If you can get off a Feeblemind, then just spam Tasha's Mind Whip and make sure you use Synaptic Static as well. You'll absolutely want Booming Blade since Bladesinger lets you make an Extra Attack and cast a Cantrip as part of the Extra Attack. Just duck in, smack the Monk with BB, and move out of range. You do risk an Attack of Opportunity, but you should be ok if you cast Blur on yourself and have Shield as you Spell Mastery choice.

[Segev]

I have a rogue 1/monk 8/ranger 1 who I can outline how he'd approach a fight with a wizard, if it'll help you figure out how to set up your wizard to counter him.

There's some non-official stuff in his build, including a magic item that lets him affix silence to it ratehr than a point in space, and a race that lets him see through fog, but he also has a familiar from a feat and could get blindsight from that for his purposes. I'll try to bend it towards stuff you could build with official resources, though, too.

His basic strategy would be to pop his fog bottle (which is a reflavored eversmoking bottle; this would blind most monks as much as the wizard, but he's got a familiar from a feat and can use one iwth blindsense to help him out), then hide in the obscurement, using pass without trace if the wizard proves too good at locating him, and silence otherwise. His goal would be to get the wizard into his silence field while blinded by the smoke and grapple the wizard.

The wizard's best bet would be getting high into the air, as this monk can't fly.

[Sorinth]

I would personally go with the Harengon War Magic wizard with the Alert feat, and Res: Con. Going first and being able to avoid the stunlock should allow you to win in any number of ways.

[BoutsofInsanity]

I'm curious as to what range you could have both of these characters start at that is considered fair. A monk can move 60ft (assuming a race with a base of 30ft) by level 20, and if they dash, that's 120ft, and if they also bonus action dash, that's 180ft.

Obviously starting with them 60ft apart would be advantageous for the monk who could close that distance immediately. 120ft apart could still be seen as being in the Monk's favor, as he can still attack from that distance. But at 120ft or more, a monk could also move 180 ft away, making them 300ft away, which would put him out of range for most of a wizards spells. Sure the wizard could teleport closer, but teleporting next to the Monk would be foolish as it would waste a spell and put them in melee range, and teleporting so that their 125ft away would let the monk freely move away as much as he wants again, and has cost the wizard some form of teleportation. Not to mention if he teleports he can't use another spell that turn.

So couldn't the monk feasibly always move into an advantageous position? And with the ability to run along walls and over water, and at most only takes up to 20 damage form falling, there aren't many things that could stop him from going anywhere.

In an arena this would be a moot point, but I also don't think any arena would be so big that a monk couldn't cross most of, if not all of it, in a single turn.

That's what I'm going to try and find out. I've got a couple of arena's I want to test. One of them being a big forest that both characters start on either side of.

Another is an open field and another is an enclosed arena. Ill use the encounter distance rules from the DMG to determine starting distance.

And yes, I full expect the Monk to show up with a +2 bow and a bunch of arrows with the Sharpshooter feat.

[sithlordnergal]

That's what I'm going to try and find out. I've got a couple of arena's I want to test. One of them being a big forest that both characters start on either side of.

Another is an open field and another is an enclosed arena. Ill use the encounter distance rules from the DMG to determine starting distance.

And yes, I full expect the Monk to show up with a +2 bow and a bunch of arrows with the Sharpshooter feat.


Lol, oh if you expect them to use Sharpshooter, I fully suggest my Fighter/Wizard build. Base 30 AC via magic items, 35 thanks to Shield, Blur to give disadvantage on the attack rolls. The only way that Monk will hit you is if he gets a Crit with Disadvantage.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Important question, are you able to multiclass? If so, Fighter 2/Wizard 18 wins this easily. Also, are you able to use Tasha's for ability scores, and are you using Point buy? I'm going to assume no Tasha's for ability scores.

Also, with spell choices you need to consider the following:

1) Level 20 Monks are proficient with all saving throws
2) Level 20 Monks have Evasion
3) Monks are immune to Poison and the Poisoned condition



Straight 20 Wizard

Tasha's is absolutely fine.

Point buy to keep it fair.

One of the things that will most likely happen is if during the testing we find out that a couple of spell combos are just over tuned, we might ban them out after determining that they just immediately win. Conclusion being "Oh, well if the Wizard has access to those spells it's game over." But for now we assume the regular use of spells are allowed. Like Wish into Simulacrum may just be busted for the fight and that combo is just, over tuned. And that's ok.

I mean it's literally in Wish's description that it's the most powerful spell a Wizard can cast. It sounds to me like that's intended as a quest spell. Not something that a player just picks up. But that's setting and campaign specific and that's not what we are testing right now.


Prismatic Wall
Force Cage
Wish into Simulacrum
Shapechange

[BoutsofInsanity]

Lol, oh if you expect them to use Sharpshooter, I fully suggest my Fighter/Wizard build. Base 30 AC via magic items, 35 thanks to Shield, Blur to give disadvantage on the attack rolls. The only way that Monk will hit you is if he gets a Crit with Disadvantage.

Nothing says the Monk has to stand there and just fight. The monk might decide to run away once blur pops and wait out the timer. Using physical stealth rolls to stay ahead of the wizard in this scenario. It will depend on the Arena.

But it's straight wizard today.

[elyktsorb]

we might ban them out after determining that they just immediately win.

I mean, an Open Hand Monk could technically win in 2 turns if he goes first and can hit the Wizard twice in the first turn, provided the Wizard fails 2 Con saves in a row. 1st attack to stun the Wizard for their next turn, 2nd attack to Quivering Palm. Wizards stunned turn. On the Monk's next turn he uses his action to activate Quivering Palm, if the Wizard fails this Con save he goes straight to 0 HP.

[sithlordnergal]

Straight 20 Wizard

Tasha's is absolutely fine.

Point buy to keep it fair.

One of the things that will most likely happen is if during the testing we find out that a couple of spell combos are just over tuned, we might ban them out after determining that they just immediately win. Conclusion being "Oh, well if the Wizard has access to those spells it's game over." But for now we assume the regular use of spells are allowed. Like Wish into Simulacrum may just be busted for the fight and that combo is just, over tuned. And that's ok.

I mean it's literally in Wish's description that it's the most powerful spell a Wizard can cast. It sounds to me like that's intended as a quest spell. Not something that a player just picks up. But that's setting and campaign specific and that's not what we are testing right now.


Prismatic Wall
Force Cage
Wish into Simulacrum
Shapechange


A combo that might get banned is Feeblemind/Tasha's Mind Whip. If the Wizard successfully gets off Feeblemind, then Mind Whip is almost guaranteed, especially if you have items to boost your Spell Save DC above 22, which is very do-able. The Monk will literally have to choose between moving and attacking, and since Mind Whip is a 2nd level spell then you can just keep casting it forever.

That said, given those restrictions, I'd go with my Bladesinger build. If the Monk decides to run off for 1 minute, then that gives you time to cast spells to buff yourself. Also, the Monk is allowed to run...are you allowed to cast something like Rope Trick to hide as well? You haven't left combat, but the Monk wouldn't be able to really reach you if you climb up there. If you can use Rope Trick, just send summons after him.

[Foxydono]

Obviously there are many routes to take to handle this fight and I don't think you will lose. The 'problem' with the fight is that monks are great at saving throws. Good chance they have advantage, they are proficient in all saving throws, can re-roll, etc. Of course you can boost you spell save DC with magical items, but I don't think that's the way to go. In the end you gamble om him losing a saving throw. I'm quite sure he will take the lucky feat as well. I know I would. Also, with evasion most damage spells are not your best bet either. Some will argue to use magic missile, but a that's a one trick pony which can also be dealt with.

If you go melee, he might hit and run. Stun might also be a problem, but it all depends of course on his build, magic items and play style. As been said before, he needs 10 hits or so. To prevent this and also take advantage of the monk relatively low AC (around 20ish probably and not many ways to boost it), I suggest the following build:

Race: Half Elf
Stats: Start with 17(15+2) Int, 15(14+1) Con and 14(13+1) Dexterity. The rest don't matter much.
Feats: Proficient Con, +2 int, Lucky, Elven accuracy, Warcaster.
Class: Bladesinging Wizard
Items: Cloak of invisibility (attunement), Belt of Fire Giant Strength (Strength 25 attunement), +3 Weapon, periapt of proof against poison, glamoured studded leather +1, weapon of warning (attunement).
Spells you need: fly, haste, magic missile, shield, power word kill, misty step, dimension door and dispel magic (there are plenty of other spells worth mentioning, but I will keep it basic).

AC: 13 armor +2 dex +5 bladesinging +5 shield spell. This is a basic defense of 25, which will block most of his attacks. I'd probably cast haste on myself for 27 AC and extra movement/attack. Also, all attacks have disadvantage (watch out for lucky though).
Attack: +7 from Strength +6 prof +3 weapon = +16 to attack with triple advantage (assuming he doesn't have true sight). You have +7 Strength +5 bladesong +3 weapon = +15 to damage rolls with 3 attacks (with haste).

If you have done 60-80 damage, power word kill and end it. With warcaster, proficient con and bladesinging you have a good chance to maintain concentration. Again Lucky might foil this plan. If he runs out of combat range, try magic missile or another spell if he somehow obtained shield. Even if he hits you and you manage to fail the save DC and lucky fails , you have enough HP to last a while. If you pref high initiative, you can take alert and boots of flying instead of weapon of warning. With advantage you have a fair shot. But there is no guarantee you will win, so I prefer lucky.

Anyway, enough fun builds to try, but I think you will own the monk easy with this setup. Either ranged or melee, It's all good.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Obviously there are many routes to take to handle this fight and I don't think you will lose. The 'problem' with the fight is that monks are great at saving throws. Good chance they have advantage, they are proficient in all saving throws, can re-roll, etc. Of course you can boost you spell save DC with magical items, but I don't think that's the way to go. In the end you gamble om him losing a saving throw. I'm quite sure he will take the lucky feat as well. I know I would. Also, with evasion most damage spells are not your best bet either. Some will argue to use magic missile, but a that's a one trick pony which can also be dealt with.

If you go melee, he might hit and run. Stun might also be a problem, but it all depends of course on his build, magic items and play style. As been said before, he needs 10 hits or so. To prevent this and also take advantage of the monk relatively low AC (around 20ish probably and not many ways to boost it), I suggest the following build:

Race: Half Elf
Stats: Start with 17(15+2) Int, 15(14+1) Con and 14(13+1) Dexterity. The rest don't matter much.
Feats: Proficient Con, +2 int, Lucky, Elven accuracy, Warcaster.
Class: Bladesinging Wizard
Items: Cloak of invisibility (attunement), Belt of Fire Giant Strength (Strength 25 attunement), +3 Weapon, periapt of proof against poison, glamoured studded leather +1, weapon of warning (attunement).
Spells you need: fly, haste, magic missile, shield, power word kill, misty step, dimension door and dispel magic (there are plenty of other spells worth mentioning, but I will keep it basic).

AC: 13 armor +2 dex +5 bladesinging +5 shield spell. This is a basic defense of 25, which will block most of his attacks. I'd probably cast haste on myself for 27 AC and extra movement/attack. Also, all attacks have disadvantage (watch out for lucky though).
Attack: +7 from Strength +6 prof +3 weapon = +16 to attack with triple advantage (assuming he doesn't have true sight). You have +7 Strength +5 bladesong +3 weapon = +15 to damage rolls with 3 attacks (with haste).

If you have done 60-80 damage, power word kill and end it. With warcaster, proficient con and bladesinging you have a good chance to maintain concentration. Again Lucky might foil this plan. If he runs out of combat range, try magic missile or another spell if he somehow obtained shield. Even if he hits you and you manage to fail the save DC and lucky fails , you have enough HP to last a while. If you pref high initiative, you can take alert and boots of flying instead of weapon of warning. With advantage you have a fair shot. But there is no guarantee you will win, so I prefer lucky.

Anyway, enough fun builds to try, but I think you will own the monk easy with this setup. Either ranged or melee, It's all good.

That's the most interesting build I've seen so far. I like the uniqueness of just slugging it out.

As for Rope Trick - Since it's an hour duration I don't see why it couldn't work. I think that's fine.

[J-H]

We've seen years of whiteroom "monks are bad" discussion. Here, the best answer so far for a wizard against a monk is to cosplay as a Fighter.

I'd say the designers of 5e did a decent job making the monk a good spellcaster-hunter, and monks aren't bad like many people say they are.

[BoutsofInsanity]

We've seen years of whiteroom "monks are bad" discussion. Here, the best answer so far for a wizard against a monk is to cosplay as a Fighter.

I'd say the designers of 5e did a decent job making the monk a good spellcaster-hunter, and monks aren't bad like many people say they are.

I did a level 16 one shot against 3 Erinyes recently with a Long Death Monk. Used Gloves of Soul Stealing, broom of flying, belt of giant's strength, and the dragonkin belt (the one that increases the DC of your Ki abilities.)

Wrecked that encounter. Wasn't even close to being threatened. I think Monks are better than they are given credit for. I think the only issue that they face is a lot of DM's do straight fights instead of adding terrain and mobility. I think that's where Monks shine.

[Segev]

We've seen years of whiteroom "monks are bad" discussion. Here, the best answer so far for a wizard against a monk is to cosplay as a Fighter.

I'd say the designers of 5e did a decent job making the monk a good spellcaster-hunter, and monks aren't bad like many people say they are.

I dunno. I think "pack illusions for defense and distraction, magic missiles to whittle him down, and power word: kill to finish him off" is a pretty solid strategy for the wizard. It may need a bit more tweaking and work to bring to every environment, but it's a solid start.

And I've never been in the "monks are uselessly weak" camp; I just think every one of their martial arts dice needs to be upped by 1 size, so they start at d6s and end on d12s.

[Amnestic]

We've seen years of whiteroom "monks are bad" discussion. Here, the best answer so far for a wizard against a monk is to cosplay as a Fighter.

I'd say the designers of 5e did a decent job making the monk a good spellcaster-hunter, and monks aren't bad like many people say they are.

When the wizard is handicapped from the start by not being able to use their spells to prepare (Contingency) and some of their options (eg. Forcecage) are deliberately excluded...sure?

[Unoriginal]

I did a level 16 one shot against 3 Erinyes recently with a Long Death Monk. Used Gloves of Soul Stealing, broom of flying, belt of giant's strength, and the dragonkin belt (the one that increases the DC of your Ki abilities.)

Wrecked that encounter. Wasn't even close to being threatened. I think Monks are better than they are given credit for. I think the only issue that they face is a lot of DM's do straight fights instead of adding terrain and mobility. I think that's where Monks shine.

I mean, as much as I love Monks, the Gloves of Soul Stealings are going to be the big game-changers here.

[Dork_Forge]

When the wizard is handicapped from the start by not being able to use their spells to prepare (Contingency) and some of their options (eg. Forcecage) are deliberately excluded...sure?

And when the Monk is a raceless, subclassless blob that won't effectively counter?

I've both never seen a Monk perform like the vocal majority on here seem to think they do, and I've never seen a Wizard perform as well as they're expected to. Far from it.

[Amnestic]

And when the Monk is a raceless, subclassless blob that won't effectively counter?

I've both never seen a Monk perform like the vocal majority on here seem to think they do, and I've never seen a Wizard perform as well as they're expected to. Far from it.

Without any subclasses factored in they have no counter vs. force cage.

As far as subclasses go, their only solution is Shadow which a) relies on there being dim light/darkness both in and around the cage, and b) relies on Shadow Step being ruled as a magical ability, which SAC does not support.

[Sorinth]

Without any subclasses factored in they have no counter vs. force cage.

As far as subclasses go, their only solution is Shadow which a) relies on there being dim light/darkness both in and around the cage, and b) relies on Shadow Step being ruled as a magical ability, which SAC does not support.

All monks can turn invisible which might mean you can't even hit them with force cage.

[sithlordnergal]

All monks can turn invisible which might mean you can't even hit them with force cage.

You can catch an invisible creature with Forcecage. It doesn't target a creature, it targets an area, and if a creature happens to be in that area then they're caught with no save needed.

[Amnestic]

All monks can turn invisible which might mean you can't even hit them with force cage.

Monks can't Hide as a bonus action, meaning a Wizard would still know where they are, and cast force cage on the area they are in.
Wizards can cast See Invisibility, and trading a 2nd level spell slot for 1/5th of the monk's ki points is an action exchange they're probably quite happy to make.

[Hael]

If the monk gets within range of a spell, its basically an automatic loss. Wizards like the diviner or chronurgist (not sure if OP allows them) + their simulacrums will just reroll or replace rolls on save or suck spells (the new spell silvery barbs just makes this worse). So like polymorph into a rat then next turn powerword kill.

So the only hope for the monk is to win initiative, and either first turn stunlock/kill or to be able to kite.

Any ruleset with prebuffs is going to make most strats impossible. B/c find greater steed will kill the kiting strat, and gift of alacrity/fortune favor/foresight or class features (warmagic/chronurgy/portent) is going to make most initiative rolls extremely unlikely.

Stunlocking is going to be almost impossible against a shapechanged monster with legendary resistances and/or an already truepolymorphed form with a ton of hps and buffs like foresight. Various clones and deathwards are also going to really stretch the action economy of a monk. Full resistances from wish will make the monks dpr completely insufficient.. I mean an abjuration wizard can simply cast spells like fireshield/armor of agathys/shadow of moil via wish/contingency/feats and between resistances and the hp ward (from both his own and the simulacrums features) this will likely guarantee the monk punching himself out before he gets through the barrier.

So I basically think its impossible. The ruleset has to be specifically tailored for the monk to have even a flicker of a chance. Various problematic spells have to be banned (wish, simulacrum, truepolymorph, shapechange, demiplane, clone, magic jar, invulnerability), various classes banned (diviner, chronurgist, abjurer), absolutely no prebuffs or spells that allow the wizard to escape and buff in peace....

[Sorinth]

You can catch an invisible creature with Forcecage. It doesn't target a creature, it targets an area, and if a creature happens to be in that area then they're caught with no save needed.

Which is why I used the word might. Yeah the wizard might throw a force cage out and catch the monk, but it's far from a guarantee that's you'll get them in the area.


Monks can't Hide as a bonus action, meaning a Wizard would still know where they are, and cast force cage on the area they are in.
Wizards can cast See Invisibility, and trading a 2nd level spell slot for 1/5th of the monk's ki points is an action exchange they're probably quite happy to make.

The monk isn't silent without taking the Hide action, but that doesn't mean you know the exact location either. Throwing out force cage without knowing the exact location is just as likely to miss. And a monk is probably also quite happy if the wizard spends a turn casting see invisibility because that's a turn they aren't casting something actually good. It's a race between the monk doing enough damage/stun locking them vs the time for the wizard to setup a killer combo. Turns spent casting see invisibility or forcing a misty step are all good turns for the Monk.

[kaervaak]

As far as I can see, there are only two monk builds that have a chance.

Aarakocra longbow sharpshooter Kensei who kites and kills the wizard over time from 600 feet away. Very few spells have a range greater than 120 feet, so as long as the monk can stay far enough away, the wizard will be challenged to deal with the constant barrage of arrows. This becomes a battle of attrition (and luck) if the wizard goes invisible, ethereal, or makes some kind of non-concentration bunker from which to cast nasty spells.

Open Palm Monk who stunlocks then one shots the wizard with quivering palm. Open palm needs to be a harengon to maximize their chance of going first. This probably still loses initiative to divination, but at least the extra +6 to initiative might over-ride portent if the rolls aren't super low. Also, the wizard will likely have resilient con, so +8 to +11 to their con saves (or more with magic items), making their chance of failing multiple con saves pretty slim.

[arnin77]

I’d say build around winning initiative - acting first will be Ki ;)

[BoutsofInsanity]

I’d say build around winning initiative - acting first will be Ki ;)

:smallcool:YYEEEEAAAHHH

[Vorpalchicken]

Which is why I used the word might. Yeah the wizard might throw a force cage out and catch the monk, but it's far from a guarantee that's you'll get them in the area.



The monk isn't silent without taking the Hide action, but that doesn't mean you know the exact location either. Throwing out force cage without knowing the exact location is just as likely to miss. And a monk is probably also quite happy if the wizard spends a turn casting see invisibility because that's a turn they aren't casting something actually good. It's a race between the monk doing enough damage/stun locking them vs the time for the wizard to setup a killer combo. Turns spent casting see invisibility or forcing a misty step are all good turns for the Monk.

RAW, the wizard knows the 5' cube that the invisible monk is in unless that monk took the Hide action. Don't feel bad, i'd say better than half the players and DMs I have played with do not understand how invisibility works in 5e.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Alright tell me what you think.

D&D Beyond Character sheet. (https://ddb.ac/characters/54918957/N9321w)

I went with Mountain Dwarf because that's consistently said to be a strong wizard race with Tasha's online.

Staff of the Magi over the Robe because of half-plate and it gives some needed offensive damaging options.

Ring of Free action over cloak of displacement to prevent the grapples, but I can switch that.

Alert feat of course.

Divination Wizard because I saw that a lot.

Spell memorization was a pain. I tried to take as many of the good options as I could while also imagining what a Wizard might want to have just in case. Got a few summoning options in there, along with Scorching ray to really fire off some rounds if the opportunity arises.

Let me know what you would change.

I think ill start with this as the base.

[Sorinth]

RAW, the wizard knows the 5' cube that the invisible monk is in unless that monk took the Hide action. Don't feel bad, i'd say better than half the players and DMs I have played with do not understand how invisibility works in 5e.

I disagree. The RAW leaves it up to the DM to determine.

Here's a thought experiment, does your character know the exact location of every creature on the planet at all times except those that are taking the hide action? Obviously not, so at what range do you suddenly become aware of the exact location of creatures? And more specifically for RAW, where does the books give that range? Let's say you are outside a building that you can't see into but you hear 2 people arguing, do you know the exact location of those 2 people, what about the 3rd person in the building that is sitting there listening to the argument but not speaking, do you know they are there and there exact location?

[Eldariel]

Alright tell me what you think.

D&D Beyond Character sheet. (https://ddb.ac/characters/54918957/N9321w)

I went with Mountain Dwarf because that's consistently said to be a strong wizard race with Tasha's online.

Staff of the Magi over the Robe because of half-plate and it gives some needed offensive damaging options.

Ring of Free action over cloak of displacement to prevent the grapples, but I can switch that.

Alert feat of course.

Divination Wizard because I saw that a lot.

Spell memorization was a pain. I tried to take as many of the good options as I could while also imagining what a Wizard might want to have just in case. Got a few summoning options in there, along with Scorching ray to really fire off some rounds if the opportunity arises.

Let me know what you would change.

I think ill start with this as the base.

For a MDwarf, that's a low Con. There's absolutely no need for Str of 13; I'd dump it into at least 16 Con though with Res: Con you could go as high as 18 (the whole point of playing a Dwarf). Also, lowish Dex is going to be a disservice in an arena and on high levels the base AC really isn't all that valuable, which is something to keep in mind: the strengths of a MDwarf are highlighted on a lower level. If going MDwarf, Moderately Armored for Shield proficiency isn't a bad idea; if you want AC, you generally should go deeper on it (the +2 Half-Plate looks extremely suspect as an item purchase otherwise).

I'd definitely always have Lucky and Res: Con before anything else; War Caster is worse than Res: Con for basically all purposes (your purpose isn't gonna be to take OAs in melee though you can take War Caster after Res: Con) and Lucky generally outperforms Warcaster. In short, I'd put a lot more points into Con and swap Warcaster and Spell Sniper for Lucky and Res: Con. Telekinetic is probably better than Observant for doubledipping AOEs (cast Cloud of Daggers VII behind the Monk, push them in, they take damage and again on their turn) and for a free "disengage".

I'll check out the spell loadout when I have the time; quick glance reveals the lack of a tactical teleportation spell like Dimension Door or Teleport, and Summon Lesser Demons, which is largely just worse than Summon Greater Demon. Also a Wizard should certainly have Absorb Elements prepared; meanwhile Mage Armor is extremely irrelevant for armored characters. There's also some overlap between the Staff spells and the Wizard spells (e.g. Invisibility is prepared in both) and Prismatic Spray is almost never a good idea. But I'll check it more closely once I have time.

[Segev]

Alright tell me what you think.

D&D Beyond Character sheet. (https://ddb.ac/characters/54918957/N9321w)

I went with Mountain Dwarf because that's consistently said to be a strong wizard race with Tasha's online.

Staff of the Magi over the Robe because of half-plate and it gives some needed offensive damaging options.

Ring of Free action over cloak of displacement to prevent the grapples, but I can switch that.

Alert feat of course.

Divination Wizard because I saw that a lot.

Spell memorization was a pain. I tried to take as many of the good options as I could while also imagining what a Wizard might want to have just in case. Got a few summoning options in there, along with Scorching ray to really fire off some rounds if the opportunity arises.

Let me know what you would change.

I think ill start with this as the base.

If you're using TCE's floating stats, I would suggest the +2 to Int and either Dex or Con.

If you're able to afford it in your item budget, you can get Oil of Slipperyness over a Ring of Free Action, and then keep the Displacement Cloak. The Oil is 8 hours of freedom of movement and no attunement.

[kazaryu]

Good Morning Playgrounds. I need a level 20 Wizard who is going to participate in a variety 1 versus 1 fights against a level 20 Monk.

I'm weak compared to the knowledge the collective has for building the most versatile caster.

I don't need a full build. But the following would be helpful.


Some good items
Some strong staple spells you would use in the conflict - I don't need a full list, but there are definitely spells I don't know about that would matter.
Base tactics you would plan to use


Assumptions going into the fight

WOTC content - No EGTW, Acquisitions Inc, MTG content
No artifacts
1 legendary item, 2 very rare items, 2 rare items, uncommon items
It's reasonable to assume the wizard has at this point gained access to most spell scrolls to make their spell book.
The monk and wizard both know the fight is coming
Yuan-ti is not allowed


The Duel


The fight might take place in the following locations, an open field, a white close together room, a massive forest with a ruined castle in the middle
It might be a single fight or it might be a 3 rounder with a short rest after each bout
The Wizard has not had prep time for Wizard shenanigans like Simulacrum cheese.
Edit* - Duel ends when either character is dead or unconscious and at 0 hit points. Or leaving the dueling area.


I think that's it. Let me know what you got. -

how many uncommon items?


regardless, the biggest thing you wanna focus on (imo) if you're building a wizard with the purpose of fighting a martial is AC. so that when should all your other plans fail, you're still rally hard to hit.

to that end: going githyanki gets you medium armor and qualifies you for the moderately armored feat...a bit redundant, yes, but worth the slot i think to be able to grab a +3 shield. (githyanki can also cast misty step without using nay components...which isn't really useful for this specific fight probably..but a free subtle misty step is nice in general imo). so its a feat slot you're spending getting a +5 to AC. with 20 dex (imo not saying to can actually get that high. this is just in theory) and robes of the archmagi+staff of power you have 15+5+5+2=27 permanent AC. and with your spell mastery you can at-will cast shield for a total of 32.

a max ability score martial with a +3 weapon using a ranged weapon can have a maximum of +16 to hit. a 32AC gives them a 25% chance to land an individual attack. and if you assume that your opponent is smart, they're actually gonna take a belt of storm giants str so they can get up to a +18 to hit on melee attacks. but even then they still only have a 35% chance to hit before accounting for disadvantage. whereas if you ignore your AC you're looking at a 20AC(15+dex) against a potential +18 to hit. not really what you want i think. (and you could potentially get higher by taking like a ring or cloak of protection.)


added benefits: obviously the staff of power itself lets you cast more spells, so your available spell list is a bit more open (even if you aren't going to actually get that far) and the robes boost your spell save DC (one of few ways to do that). the downside is that you might run into some trouble with action economy if you want to cast a spell with a costly material component (it depends if your DM will let you set the staff down to grab the component then pick the staff back up).

slight rules pitfall: you might think that you need the warcaster feat to cast anything with a somatic component. this is not true. the rules specifically allow you to use the same hand to do both the material and the somatic component. since you have your M in your hand (the staff) then your staff hand is also good for the S.

[JackPhoenix]

slight rules pitfall: you might think that you need the warcaster feat to cast anything with a somatic component. this is not true. the rules specifically allow you to use the same hand to do both the material and the somatic component. since you have your M in your hand (the staff) then your staff hand is also good for the S.

The staff is *only* good for S if the spell also has M component. If it doesn't, the staff gets in the way.

[kazaryu]

The staff is *only* good for S if the spell also has M component. If it doesn't, the staff gets in the way.

by strict RaW you're right. thank you for pointing that out. i mean, overall i'd recomend grabbing warcaster anyway which alleviates the problem altogether.

[qube]

> RAW, the wizard knows the 5' cube that the invisible monk is in unless that monk took the Hide action.

I disagree. The RAW leaves it up to the DM to determine.

Here's a thought experiment, does your character know the exact location of every creature on the planet at all times except those that are taking the hide action? Obviously not, so at what range do you suddenly become aware of the exact location of creatures? And more specifically for RAW, where does the books give that range?Sure. DMG page 243, under "Visibility Outdoors" . a clear day, you can see 2 miles, or until your view is obscured by terrain features.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Sure. DMG page 243, under "Visibility Outdoors" . a clear day, you can see 2 miles, or until your view is obscured by terrain features.

Also, if you don't have a sight line the Oddly enough DM's screen has encounter distances and audible distance that you can use to quickly determine if someone is in a detectable range.

[Vorpalchicken]

I disagree. The RAW leaves it up to the DM to determine.

Here's a thought experiment, does your character know the exact location of every creature on the planet at all times except those that are taking the hide action? Obviously not, so at what range do you suddenly become aware of the exact location of creatures? And more specifically for RAW, where does the books give that range? Let's say you are outside a building that you can't see into but you hear 2 people arguing, do you know the exact location of those 2 people, what about the 3rd person in the building that is sitting there listening to the argument but not speaking, do you know they are there and there exact location?

Of course a DM is welcome to use rule zero or guy-at-the-gym logic in their own games but this is a pvp scenerio where a DM must be as fair and by the book as possible. The invisible condition does exactly what it says it does and nothing more. If while invisible the monk moves from its original position or takes an action without first hiding (as is now possilbe without any cover thanks to invisibility) the monk's position will be known.

[Segev]

Of course a DM is welcome to use rule zero or guy-at-the-gym logic in their own games but this is a pvp scenerio where a DM must be as fair and by the book as possible. The invisible condition does exactly what it says it does and nothing more. If while invisible the monk moves from its original position or takes an action without first hiding (as is now possilbe without any cover thanks to invisibility) the monk's position will be known.

Correct. Without hiding, the invisible monk is targetable (albeit not by anything that specifically requires you to see him), and you know where he is in general. Hiding is required to obscure your location and prevent people from knowing you are where you are. You are not targetable if you are hidden from the attacker, though they can still try to drop AoEs on you by guessing. Being invisible makes it easier to hide by granting you obscurement from visual detection, meaning you don't need to find a hiding place. You can hide "in plain sight" if you're invisible because you're not in sight.

[Gtdead]

I haven't read the other posts so perhaps I may repeat some things already mentioned:

Some key points:

The most dangerous Monks are those with high speed and flight. Aarakocra, Tabaxi with winged boots etc. If you see a vhuman you shouldn't be worried too much because you have a lot of tatics.

Spell mastery: Shield. Don't even try without it. You need to stack it with Shapechange forms if you want to fight.

Prepare Forcecage but assume that the Monk has a way to get out of it. If not you have already won. Only use it if you are safe from a counter attack. If he is serious about this, he should optimize for this eventuality.

Expect the Monk to be able to close at least 120 ft distance and still be able to attack you with stunning strike. If he is Aarakocra it's 160 ft. I'm not very well versed in magical items. I'm going to assume that he won't reach 120 ft of base speed however, which is a fairly important point since a lot of Shapechange forms have that speed and can kite/chase.

DO NOT fight with forms that don't have Legendary Resistance or Stun immunity. If you do you will lose.

The best form for most Wizards is Ancient White Dragon. This is the only form you can duel in. However Monk can easily run away and kite at max Longbow range. You can use a Storm Giant Quintessent and try to fight him, but technically he can just kite you if he has increased speed from either race or items. Perhaps you can do some trick by transforming into a Planetar and closing the distance, then back into Storm Giant and shoot but it's risky. If he is a vhuman/clineage without other speed boosts, then you can easily do this.

One way to counter the 600 ft range Longbow is potion of haste. Ancient White Dragon with potion of haste has 160 base flight + haste action dash. Monk should have a lot of trouble outrunning this. Another way to do this is with a spell storing ring. You give it to your familiar and during the fight you dimension door away, make your familiar haste you and you dismiss it temporarily. RAW the Familiar doesnt lose concentration even if it's in another dimension, so you should have 9 turns to fight with a hasted dragon form. This is only useful for open space though. If it's closed then you should be able to just chase after him.

Phoenix is a form immune to stun with 120 ft range. However Monk can kill it in a duel unless you are a Bladesinger (and use Bladesong). I'm not sure how much difference items can do here however. It's better to use it if you have already dealt some damage to the Monk.

Contingency: Resilient Sphere should take care of initiative. You don't have to go Diviner but you need to act fast and not waste turns. Stunning Strike can be used to great effect.

Get the Lucky feat. If Monk manages to win initiative and you don't have contingency, Lucky is the only thing that will save you. Monk winning initiative, even in closed space, is NOT a 100% chance to win. It's more like 55% and it depends on your AC. You don't want that scenario to happen, but it's not the end yet.

While you can fight him while Empty Body is up, you can also run away and make him waste 4 Ki.

Magic Missiles will be your main way to deal damage to Monk. It goes through Missile Deflection.

Be mindful of a 4 elements monk. He can burst you down hard with Water Whip and break your concentration. Make sure to shapechange into a Legendary Resistance form asap. However if he misuses this ability then he is done for.

Increasing your proficiency through an Ioun stone sounds like the best idea to me. It works on Shapechange forms too.

A lot of forms have truesight and blindfight, make use of it if he tries to hide from you. Planetar is a good one, just make sure to stay safe. It's easy to get baited if he has increased speed.

If I think of anything else I will add.

[Amnestic]

Prepare Forcecage but assume that the Monk has a way to get out of it.

Do monks have a way to get out of it? They don't have any sub/class features which work to do so.

[Segev]

Do monks have a way to get out of it? They don't have any sub/class features which work to do so.

Shadow Step is the only one I can think of.

A monk knowing he's facing a high-level wizard and with enough meta knowledge to know that they have forcecage will likely have a Cape of the Mountebank or some similar means of teleporting, though.

[Sorinth]

I don't want to derail this thread so this will likely be the last post on the subject.

The idea that you know the exact location of an invisible creature that isn't hidding up to 2 miles away is absurd and certainly not RAW. And the encounter distance rules from the DMs Screen (If they are even RAW) are also based on sight only the Audible distance table might apply. And I say might because it's still about encounter distance and not something to be used in combat. The rules for knowing the position of an invisible creature are in the Appendix of the PHB "The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves." That's it, it's entirely up to the DM to determine whether you can hear the invisible creature moving around, at what distance you actually know the exact location, at what range you have a general location, how your perception/passive perception impacts that, etc...

[Amnestic]

Shadow Step is the only one I can think of.

Shadowstep doesn't work, because it's a non-magical teleport, per sage advice compendium.



A monk knowing he's facing a high-level wizard and with enough meta knowledge to know that they have forcecage will likely have a Cape of the Mountebank or some similar means of teleporting, though.

This does work, though they will need to make a cha save (probably at +5-6, with a reroll) vs 19-22, and if they flub they're stuck.

[Segev]

The idea that you know the exact location of an invisible creature that isn't hidding up to 2 miles away is absurd and certainly not RAW.

No-one is suggesting that it is. Encounter distance is fuzzy and up to the DM. But if the DM deems the creature could be easily seen were it not invisible, or deems it can be reasonably heard or smelt or otherwise have its presence detected if it doesn't take special care (i.e. the Hide action) to disguise its other sensory cues, then the creature's location is known.

It may refer to "sight distance" in the DM screen, but sight actually isn't a "special" sense for detection in D&D, other than it being the one required not to have disadvantage when attacking a creature or being specifically called out as necessary for some spells' targeting. Being invisible no more makes you undetectable than being silent does. It does provide total obscurement, though, making taking the Hide action possible without further need to seek such obscurement out.

[Sorinth]

No-one is suggesting that it is. Encounter distance is fuzzy and up to the DM. But if the DM deems the creature could be easily seen were it not invisible, or deems it can be reasonably heard or smelt or otherwise have its presence detected if it doesn't take special care (i.e. the Hide action) to disguise its other sensory cues, then the creature's location is known.

It may refer to "sight distance" in the DM screen, but sight actually isn't a "special" sense for detection in D&D, other than it being the one required not to have disadvantage when attacking a creature or being specifically called out as necessary for some spells' targeting. Being invisible no more makes you undetectable than being silent does. It does provide total obscurement, though, making taking the Hide action possible without further need to seek such obscurement out.

Your first paragraph is my point, by RAW it's up to the DM to determine at what distance you can reasonably be heard/smelt or otherwise detected. If the invisible creature is outside that range then you don't know their exact location regardless of whether the invisible creature took the hide action or not.

[Gtdead]

Do monks have a way to get out of it? They don't have any sub/class features which work to do so.

Shadow Monk can teleport out of it and Monk has CHA proficiency thanks to Diamond Soul. Also he may have a +CHA item to help with the saving throw.
Additionally I'm sure there are a few items that give you access to Dimension Door.

So if you put all your eggs in the same basket, you may get RNG'd to death. After all Monk wins this fight mostly by RNG. Managing to Win initiative and Stun locking, breaking Shapechange forms with stun etc.

Edit: I wasn't aware that Shadow's teleport doesn't work. But I'm assuming that he will invest in an item that gives him a chance.

[Segev]

Your first paragraph is my point, by RAW it's up to the DM to determine at what distance you can reasonably be heard/smelt or otherwise detected. If the invisible creature is outside that range then you don't know their exact location regardless of whether the invisible creature took the hide action or not.

Arguably, outside that range it isn't guaranteed that you could be seen if you were visible, either. When you start getting to these distances, noticing somebody visible becomes less than certain, and may require a perception check anyway.