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Arkynata
2021-12-06, 05:25 PM
Hiya! This thread is about Warlocks and how I want to try and homebrew the class to better mesh with my setting as well as better reflect the diversity of pact magic that the different patrons suggest. It is a bit of continuation of a previous thread where Kane0 offered to help me with this, but of course anyone who wants to are free to join in.

Okay, the problem I see with the class it is that the PHB Warlock is so focused on Eldritch Blast that it defines the class to a large extent. To me that is an issue because, in my opinion, only a few of the patrons would offer a pact that is about raw, unsubtle power.

What I'd like to have to compliment this is the following:

An Archfey subclass that focuses on charm magic and illusions

A Great Old One subclass that focuses on corruption, warping minds and bodies alike

A Celestial subclass that focuses on personal sacrifice to save others

If that wasn't enough I also would like to have some kind of full spellcaster classes with a bit of Warlock flair.

One would be the Wizard (and/or Cleric) who delves into forgotten secrets and makes a pact for greater power, perhaps some kind of variation on the UA Arcane Theurge?

A spellcaster that is focused on using blood and lifeforce to cast spells, stealing life, converting blood to arcane power. Fueled by endless hunger, nomnomnom.

Right...

I know it is quite broad and a bit unfocused, but any ideas? :]

Kane0
2021-12-06, 05:53 PM
Alright so probably best to narrow things down a bit. You mentioned in your other thread that you're alright with the broad mechanics of the Warlock, does that mean we can keep the chassis intact and adjust the specifics? Like we still have patron with features at the same levels, pact magic and mystic arcanum, pact boon and invocations?

Assuming the above is true, we can save ourselves a lot of work by keeping existing material and adjusting how they work together, like restricting certain spells and invocations to certain patrons to enforce the theme of each one and avoid situations where the fiend warlock and the celestial warlock all have 90% the same spells, invocations and boon.

Adjusting things to not revolve around eldritch blast as much is easy. Same thing as above, but we could also introduce new cantrips and invocations for other purposes and adjust existing ones to work with other cantrips and not just EB.

Arkynata
2021-12-06, 06:03 PM
Alright so probably best to narrow things down a bit.

Yes, if there's anything that strikes your fancy more than the rest then let's just start with that shall we?


You mentioned in your other thread that you're alright with the broad mechanics of the Warlock, does that mean we can keep the chassis intact and adjust the specifics? Like we still have patron with features at the same levels, pact magic and mystic arcanum, pact boon and invocations?

Yeah. Though I would like to see some variations that have more more utility based spellcasting with perhaps broader spell selection and more spell slots. A good pick for that might be the Archfey, and model it a bit on fey innate magic that already exist, like pixies for example.


Adjusting things to not revolve around eldritch blast as much is easy. Same thing as above, but we could also introduce new cantrips and invocations for other purposes and adjust existing ones to work with other cantrips and not just EB.

Yupp! As well as perhaps having one or more of the subclasses simply forgoing EB entirely.

Bjarkmundur
2021-12-06, 06:07 PM
If we do the same as we did with the Workshopped Ranger, we're going to have a very good, but maybe a bit -stiff- chassis that each DM can then tweak to his likings. +


For conflict resolution purposes, I suggest we allow levels which has "choose one of the following class features". Sorta like what Kane0 did with the Generic Classes warrior, where you could choose Danger Sense or Brutal Critical or whatever. It just means we'll spend less time arguing about how to use some specific design space, and more time actually constructing a class.

First order of business is just establish a baseline?

1d8 Hit Die
Light Armor
One Weapon
2 Skills, (more skills will come from invocations and patrons)
Eldritch Blast as a SUBCLASS FEATURE
and NO GENERIC SPELL LIST.



Spell List
Instead of a spell list we could say:

- Each patron comes with his own fully fledged thematic spell list you can choose from. Other spells will have to come from invocations.

or

- Each patron gives access to two spell schools, and you can choose spells of that school from either the Sorcerer or Warlock spell list. Other spells come from invocations.



Grod had a very good Spell-Less Warlock we can pillage. We could even just use it completely and just add a gazillion more invocations. It really did need some more invocation options anyways.

Arkynata
2021-12-06, 06:13 PM
For conflict resolution purposes, I suggest we allow levels which has "choose one of the following class features". Sorta like what Kane0 did with the Generic Classes warrior, where you could choose Danger Sense or Brutal Critical or whatever. It just means we'll spend less time arguing about how to use some specific design space, and more time actually constructing a class.

Sounds neat!



First order of business is just establish a baseline?

1d8 Hit Die
Light Armor
One Weapon
2 Skills, (more skills will come from invocations and patrons)
Eldritch Blast as a SUBCLASS FEATURE
and NO SPELL LIST


Looks good :)



Spell List
Instead of a spell list we could say:

- Each patron comes with his own fully fledged thematic spell list you can choose from. Other spells will have to come from invocations.

That's the option I'd go for, yes. It'd also (possibly) allow us to give a patron stronger features in expense for a more limited spell list (and vice-versa).

Bjarkmundur
2021-12-06, 06:17 PM
Here's Grod's (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?569312-Spell-Less-Warlock-Redesign)

Mechanically, Grod really has it all. What do you feel like is missing from his version of the warlock?

The first thing I'd suggest pillaging is the two cantrips each patron gives you:



The Archfey: Druidcraft, Minor Illusion
The Celestial: Resistance, Spare the Dying.
The Fiend: Control Flames, Thaumaturgy.
The Great Old One: Message, Thaumaturgy.
The Hexblade: Thaumaturgy, True Strike.
The Raven Queen: Guidance, Message
The Undying: Blade Ward, Resistance


Do you have any idea how you want to set up the player's relationship with his patron? To really get the flavor and thematics you kinda have to include something, right? Something like how the Oaths are presented?

Kane0
2021-12-06, 08:13 PM
Yeah good point, Grod's spell-less warlock harkens back to the 3rd ed Warlock, that might be worth using in its own right.

However, for arguments sake lets just see what we can get away with just by tinkering with what is already Published

HP: 1d8 (as PHB)
Armor & Weapons: Light & Simple (as PHB)
Saves: Wis and either Cha or Int (see below)
Skills: Two from Arcana, Deception, History, Intimidation, Investigation, Nature, and Religion (as PHB)

Level 1: Otherworldly Patron, Pact Magic
Level 2: Invocations (2)
Level 3: Pact Boon
Level 4: ASI
Level 5: Invocation (3)
Level 6: Patron Feature
Level 7: Invocation (4)
Level 8: ASI
Level 9: Invocation (5)
Level 10: Patron Feature
Level 11: Mystic Arcanum (6th)
Level 12: ASI, Invocation (6)
Level 13: Mystic Arcanum (7th)
Level 14: Patron Feature
Level 15: Mystic Arcanum (8th), Invocation (7)
Level 16: ASI
Level 17: Mystic Arcanum (9th)
Level 18: Invocation (8)
Level 19: ASI
Level 20: Eldritch Master

Pact Magic is as normal, you have one 1st level slot at level 1 that refreshes on a short or long rest. You get an extra slot at levels 2, 11 and 17 which increase to 2nd level slots at 3rd, 3rd level slots at 5th, 4th level slots at 7th and 5th level slots at 9th. The only difference I suggest is that the Warlock decides their casting stat (and corresponding saving throw proficiency) at level 1 between Charisma and Intelligence, which they cannot change afterwards. This gives some flexibility between the mage that is given magic (and can thus lose it like a cleric) vs a mage that is taught magic (and is fundamentally theirs like a wizard or sorcerer). Some patrons might only allow one or the other!

Your cantrips and spells known are drawn from the warlock list and the number known doesn't change from the PHB, however we're going to cut the Warlock spell list back significantly. Only a select few spells will be universal between all warlocks, it's the Patrons that will expand the list available to you significantly. We could potentially do the same with boons as well, adding a few spells to the list too. Now because this is your class fantasy, this will largely come down to you and what you think all warlocks should get access to vs only some warlocks should get access to.

Invocations conceptually are the same, you pick from a list and they have requirements. Some give you more casting, some give you utility effects, some give you proficiencies, damage output, riders, whatever. What we are going to do is modify those requirements and some of the effects. Like spells only a few invocations will be universal, most will be locked behind either Patron or Pact chosen, and again the details will largely fall on you to specify. Invocations that enhance Eldritch Blast will be changed to apply to any cantrip that deals damage

Mystic Arcanum and Eldritch master remain unchanged too.

The Patrons will be mostly unchanged apart from what spells and invocations they unlock for use. The Fiendlock will still give you THP and Hurl Through Hell, the GoOlock telepathy and the Feylock Charm. Unless you think something there doesn't match up then we can make changes to specific patrons and their features but I think keeping them as-is keeps our workload low and compatibility with published material high.


So for some examples:
All-Warlock cantrips: Blade Ward, Chill Touch, Friends, Mage Hand, Message, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Sword Burst, True Strike
Fiend Patron cantrips: Control Flames, Fire Bolt, Friends, Green-Flame Blade

All-Warlock spell list (1st): Burning Hands, Cause Fear, Charm Person, Detect Evil and Good, Expeditious Retreat, Protection from Evil and Good, Thunderwave, Unseen Servant
Fiend Patron extra spells (1st): Armor of Agathys, Command, Hellish Rebuke, Searing Smite

All-Warlock Invocations (without level requirements): Agonising Blast (+Cha to cantrip damage), Armor of Shadows, Eldritch Sight, Eldritch Spear (double spell attack range), Eyes of the Rune Keeper, Repelling Blast, Thief of Five Fates (one free cast, then the rest using pact slots)
Fiend Patron Invocations: Beguiling Influence, Devil's Sight, Fiendish Vigor, Mask of Many Faces or Misty Visions (not both)

BerzerkerUnit
2021-12-07, 01:30 AM
Hiya! This thread is about Warlocks and how I want to try and homebrew the class to better mesh with my setting as well as better reflect the diversity of pact magic that the different patrons suggest. It is a bit of continuation of a previous thread where Kane0 offered to help me with this, but of course anyone who wants to are free to join in.

Okay, the problem I see with the class it is that the PHB Warlock is so focused on Eldritch Blast that it defines the class to a large extent. To me that is an issue because, in my opinion, only a few of the patrons would offer a pact that is about raw, unsubtle power.

What I'd like to have to compliment this is the following:

An Archfey subclass that focuses on charm magic and illusions

A Great Old One subclass that focuses on corruption, warping minds and bodies alike

A Celestial subclass that focuses on personal sacrifice to save others

If that wasn't enough I also would like to have some kind of full spellcaster classes with a bit of Warlock flair.

One would be the Wizard (and/or Cleric) who delves into forgotten secrets and makes a pact for greater power, perhaps some kind of variation on the UA Arcane Theurge?

A spellcaster that is focused on using blood and lifeforce to cast spells, stealing life, converting blood to arcane power. Fueled by endless hunger, nomnomnom.

Right...

I know it is quite broad and a bit unfocused, but any ideas? :]

I have a bunch of warlock patrons I've written up (https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1I0VueNYDmZXxzo7vNj4vFx1rQdGtnPwE?usp=sharing). Feel free to use any you like as inspiration or whole cloth.

Arkynata
2021-12-07, 04:52 AM
Here's Grod's (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?569312-Spell-Less-Warlock-Redesign)

Mechanically, Grod really has it all. What do you feel like is missing from his version of the warlock?


It is an interesting take on the class and it certainly allows for greater freedom in making the patrons feel unique from one another. It removes pact magic altogether, and even though I wasn't not a huge fan of it myself I am not sure how that'd hold up. I do feel like it is a more coherent concept.




The first thing I'd suggest pillaging is the two cantrips each patron gives you:



The Archfey: Druidcraft, Minor Illusion
The Celestial: Resistance, Spare the Dying.
The Fiend: Control Flames, Thaumaturgy.
The Great Old One: Message, Thaumaturgy.
The Hexblade: Thaumaturgy, True Strike.
The Raven Queen: Guidance, Message
The Undying: Blade Ward, Resistance



Thumbs up!


Do you have any idea how you want to set up the player's relationship with his patron? To really get the flavor and thematics you kinda have to include something, right? Something like how the Oaths are presented?

Well, how I would like to play it is to "formalize the contracts" a bit. The pact gives a Warlock power in exchange for something (be it loyalty, their soul, a blood sacrifice, you name it) but the power is not infinite. It is enough for the Warlock to grow into (i'e some kind of level cap), but eventually they need to renegotiate for a continuation.

That way the player has some time where they can act completely free, and the DM does not have to involve the patron unless they really want to. But they are still relevant and the players should still heed their wishes, otherwise they'd have to bargain far more for their next X levels of contract. Or they could seek out a new patron (likely enraging their former one). This could also be the case when the original patron is fairly weak, like some lesser devil, and they are unable to offer more power so instead they direct them to their superiors: "You know kid, maybe it's time you met the big boys, huh?"

Arkynata
2021-12-07, 05:06 AM
Yeah good point, Grod's spell-less warlock harkens back to the 3rd ed Warlock, that might be worth using in its own right.

However, for arguments sake lets just see what we can get away with just by tinkering with what is already Published

I concur.


The only difference I suggest is that the Warlock decides their casting stat (and corresponding saving throw proficiency) at level 1 between Charisma and Intelligence, which they cannot change afterwards. This gives some flexibility between the mage that is given magic (and can thus lose it like a cleric) vs a mage that is taught magic (and is fundamentally theirs like a wizard or sorcerer). Some patrons might only allow one or the other!

Like it!


...Cantrips, spell lists, invocations, etc...

Sounds good.


The Patrons will be mostly unchanged apart from what spells and invocations they unlock for use. The Fiendlock will still give you THP and Hurl Through Hell, the GoOlock telepathy and the Feylock Charm. Unless you think something there doesn't match up then we can make changes to specific patrons and their features but I think keeping them as-is keeps our workload low and compatibility with published material high.

Yeah that's fine, with a good framework reflavoring the patrons could be as easy as just swapping spells on a list.



So for some examples:
All-Warlock cantrips: Blade Ward, Chill Touch, Friends, Mage Hand, Message, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Ray of Frost, Sword Burst, True Strike
Fiend Patron cantrips: Control Flames, Fire Bolt, Friends, Green-Flame Blade

All-Warlock spell list (1st): Burning Hands, Cause Fear, Charm Person, Detect Evil and Good, Expeditious Retreat, Protection from Evil and Good, Thunderwave, Unseen Servant
Fiend Patron extra spells (1st): Armor of Agathys, Command, Hellish Rebuke, Searing Smite

All-Warlock Invocations (without level requirements): Agonising Blast (+Cha to cantrip damage), Armor of Shadows, Eldritch Sight, Eldritch Spear (double spell attack range), Eyes of the Rune Keeper, Repelling Blast, Thief of Five Fates (one free cast, then the rest using pact slots)
Fiend Patron Invocations: Beguiling Influence, Devil's Sight, Fiendish Vigor, Mask of Many Faces or Misty Visions (not both)

Maybe add in something celestial themed and an alternative damage source to complement Burning Hands and Cause Fear as combat spells. Maybe Guiding Bolt, Inflict Wounds and/or Color Spray? Fire and fear seems a bit too fiendish to fit every patron. So maybe we could either add some fitting option for each patron, or find a spell that is more neutral?

Bjarkmundur
2021-12-07, 07:37 AM
Well, how I would like to play it is to "formalize the contracts" a bit. The pact gives a Warlock power in exchange for something (be it loyalty, their soul, a blood sacrifice, you name it) but the power is not infinite. It is enough for the Warlock to grow into (i'e some kind of level cap), but eventually they need to renegotiate for a contInuation

This would work well as a table. Many classes and races have thematic tables that can be safely ignored if the DM and Player wish to. So each patron could have a "quest list" that serve to guide the DM and the player in the direction of what kind of services the warlock is able to provide for his patron.

"You've pledged your service to so-and-so in exchange for power. At yay-and-yay intervals your patron might expect an offering from you, to maintain your ongoing contract. Each yada-yada, roll 1d8 on the Celestial Patron Offering Table"

This could be things like "kill this creature and spend a short rest offering it's eye to your patron" or "hold a sermon at a local temple praising the divinity of your patron" etc etc. This is all just fluff that can be ignored, but serves the same function as the oaths of giving the player some direction or background for howmhis subclass becomes his characters identity.

Bjarkmundur
2021-12-07, 07:44 AM
Aww man we're sticking with pact magic? I was really hoping for more at-will kind of magic :(

Something like the equivalent of a half-caster (could be pact magic) and then each patron would give stuff like "you can cast _______ at will, as if it was cast with a spell slot of a level equal to half your warlock level, rounded up" or something.


Maybe I'll get the fantasy of "at will magic" fulfilled with the "Patron Blast"

Arkynata
2021-12-07, 09:43 AM
Aww man we're sticking with pact magic? I was really hoping for more at-will kind of magic :(

I'm not a huge fan of Pact Magic either, but I think it works fine. Grod's rework is rather drastic and I am not sure if we'd need to go that far. Personally I am not as much interested in the mechanical "at-will caster" aspect of the class as much as the class fantasy of making a pact with esoteric powers and/or seeking forbidden knowledge.

But feel free to make an argument for it :)

Bjarkmundur
2021-12-07, 10:15 AM
Nah I think you're right. The main objective is "patrons matter", it's best to focus on one thing at a time, and Kane0 has the right idea of working with what we have and make appropriate changes, rather than trying to start from scratch.

I'll go over what he's done tomorrow, I have a session tonight I need to finish prepping.

One thing I want to be really really really adamant about is to give the Invocations some keywords or categories, so we don't just end up with a giant list of stuff. Combing through things, and balancing invocations against each other is muuuuucj easier if there are categories.

Kane0
2021-12-08, 02:55 PM
Regarding eldritch blast, we could keep it basically as is as a class feature rather than cantrip but change the damage type it uses based on patron, so for example fiendlock has a fire eldritch blast, celestial radiant, etc. Then you can leave the rider invocations largely as is.
Oh speaking of invocations, rule of thumb any invocation that gives a spell once per ling rest using a pact slot should be improved to be more enticing, especially for warlocks that want to focus more on 'traditio al' spellcasting. I propose allow them to grant it once per long rest without a pact slot too.
Also, a big bundle of invocations proposed recently that could be used as additional patron-specific or pact-specific options:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?638935-Myceliumnb-s-Homebrew-Eldritch-Invocations

Bjarkmundur
2021-12-09, 03:37 AM
Agreed on allt accounts. Although we can probably make Patron Blast a bit more exciting that just "change damage type" 🤷*♂️

Can I suggest removing Agonizing Blast from the Invocation list, and use that design space to give each Patron Blast an interesting effect that is roughly equivalent to [Cha Mod] damage in power? So effectively all warlocks get one Eldritch Blast invocation for free, that has an effect that is thematic to their patron. I think this would do good things for each patrons identity, since the warlocks most used feature now becomes a tell-tale sign who his Patron is. Never again is a player at your table going to ask who's your patron, because it's obvious through your Blast effect.

Kane0
2021-12-09, 04:17 AM
Yes good idea, but probably not at level 1 for dip & power reasons. Adding a rider to EB at level 6 escapes that dip problem and comes online conveniently the very next level after you get the second ray.

Fiend: Burns in space until end of next turn, creatures moving through take damage (ala Create Bonfire)
Fey: Target moves 5' in a random direction (ala Infestation)
GoO: Target suffers -1d4 to their next save before end of next turn (ala as Mind Sliver)
Celestial: Target sheds light until end of next turn (makes it really hard to hide)
Genie: When you use your action to cast EB can also cast Control Flames/Gust/Mold Earth/Shape Water on top of that, or as a bonus action
Hexblade: Target suffers disadvantage on their next attack unless you're the target (similar to Vicious Mockery)
Fathomless: Movement reduced by 10' (ala Ray of Frost)
Undead: Target cannot heal (ala Chill Touch)

And if so then removing those cantrips from the spell lists would make sense. There are enough alternatives to work around so Warlocks still have a choice (Fire Bolt, Toll the Dead, Sword Burst, Acid Splash, Poison Spray, etc)

Arkynata
2021-12-09, 05:52 AM
I would like to try to see what happens if we completely remove EB from some of the subclasses instead of reflavoring it with a new color paint and damage type.

It'd probably free up a lot of power budget so we'd have to give the subclasses something good that they could use instead. They'd still have normal damage cantrips anyway, so I'd think it would be interesting to try and give them something that is necessarily a pure damage spell/ability.

Here's some examples that probably are not even remotely balanced (but might illustrate what I am thinking)



For Archfey:

Dazzle
Illusion Cantrip
Casting time: 1 bonus action
Range: 60ft

You assault the target with disorienting illusions. They must make a Wisdom saving throw or have disadvantage on its next attack roll.

(maybe a bit bland and probably not on par with EB when it comes to power level. But it is something that's useful in-combat and has more of a "trickery" theme to it)



For Great Old One:

Corrupt the Flesh
Transmutation Cantrip
Casting time: 1 action
Range: 60ft

You briefly allow the power of the Great Old One to touch one creature in range. Its body is subtly changed, choose either:

The target has weakness to physical damage until your next turn
or
The target can double its STR, CON or DEX modifier until your next turn

(Propably WAY too powerful, I know, I am just spitballing here. But it is a powerful spell that does not deal damage and would cement the theme of the subclass)