Druid/rogue

[MThurston]

Can an ape get sneak attack from a thrown rock?

[Unoriginal]

Can an ape get sneak attack from a thrown rock?

Nope, rocks are not among the weapons to which sneak attack applies.

[Gurgeh]

By strict RAW, no. Sneak Attack requires you to use a finesse or ranged weapon. While the Ape's rock attack is a "ranged weapon attack", that doesn't mean that the rock itself is a ranged weapon; all thrown weapon attacks are "ranged weapon attacks" even though most thrown weapons are melee weapons, after all.

That said - I wouldn't consider it beyond the pale for a DM to rule in favour of wild shaped sneak attacks, provided they're clear that it is a deliberate departure from the printed rules.

[MThurston]

By strict RAW, no. Sneak Attack requires you to use a finesse or ranged weapon. While the Ape's rock attack is a "ranged weapon attack", that doesn't mean that the rock itself is a ranged weapon; all thrown weapon attacks are "ranged weapon attacks" even though most thrown weapons are melee weapons, after all.

That said - I wouldn't consider it beyond the pale for a DM to rule in favour of wild shaped sneak attacks, provided they're clear that it is a deliberate departure from the printed rules.

Sneak Attack doesn't say it can't be a strength based attack. Just ranged weapon attack.

[MThurston]

Rock. Ranged Weapon Attack

[sambojin]

Yes. This even applies to ranged wildshape weapons that don't do any damage, like a Dilophosaurus's venomous spit and a Giant Spider's web, as you only need to hit the enemy (not do damage), for Sneak Attack to apply.

No, I don't know what type of damage it is doing, but it'll be magical by Moon 6.

[Bobthewizard]

Sneak Attack doesn't say it can't be a strength based attack. Just ranged weapon attack.


Rock. Ranged Weapon Attack

Ranged weapon attack does not automatically mean it is a ranged weapon. Sneak attack requires "The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon." A rock is not a ranged weapon. It is an improvised weapon.

There are melee weapons and ranged weapons. There are melee weapon attacks and ranged weapon attacks. Melee weapons can be thrown to make a ranged weapon attack but that does not make them a ranged weapon.

However, your DM could rule that a rock most closely resembles a sling and therefore allow you to use the sling statistics, which would make it ranged weapon and capable of sneak attack.


Sometimes Characters don’t have their Weapons and have to Attack with whatever is at hand. An Improvised Weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead Goblin.

Often, an Improvised Weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the GM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her Proficiency Bonus.

An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the GM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee Attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.

[Derges]

Sometimes Characters don’t have their Weapons and have to Attack with whatever is at hand. An Improvised Weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead Goblin.

Often, an Improvised Weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the GM’s option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her Proficiency Bonus.

An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the GM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee Attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.


The ape's rock attack is not 1d4 and has its proficiency baked into the attack roll (ie not "At the GM's option", it is +5 by RAW). Isn't that a decent case for it not being improvised when used by an ape?

[elyktsorb]

Ranged weapon attack does not automatically mean it is a ranged weapon. Sneak attack requires "The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon." A rock is not a ranged weapon. It is an improvised weapon.

There are melee weapons and ranged weapons. There are melee weapon attacks and ranged weapon attacks. Melee weapons can be thrown to make a ranged weapon attack but that does not make them a ranged weapon.


I'm gunna call shenanigans. Firstly, this implies a 'rock' is a melee weapon, when it most certainly is not, in every sense a rock would normally be considered an improvised weapon.

Even then, the statblock for an ape says that for them, a rock is a ranged weapon attack, not an improvised weapon attack as some items state. When you assume the form of the ape, you can make ranged weapon attacks with a rock. ergo, for Ape's a rock is a ranged weapon. Heck, I'll say that the rock 'should' be an improvised weapon attack, but clearly someone didn't think about that when designing.

Should you be able to make a ranged weapon attack with a rock as a person normally? Maybe, but technically that is defined as making an improvised weapon attack so there's no maybe about it.

Tho this also seems like a moot point. If you really want sneak attack ranged weapons as an ape, just carry javelins around and don't morph them into your animal form when you wild shape, since an Ape is arguably a form that could use one. (And I don't want to hear about how apes can't actually throw things, the statblock says it can throw a rock 25ft, i'd say it can throw a javelin) seems like it would be easier to convince your dm of that than if rocks are a ranged weapon. (which I believe they are for creatures with stat blocks that say they are, is it dumb to restrict it that way? yes, but so are a lot of things in 5e)

strike that, reverse it, I'm dumb

[Gurgeh]

Sneak Attack does not apply to "Ranged Weapon Attacks", it applies to attacks made with a weapon that has the Finesse or Ranged property. The distinction may seem pedantic, but it matters.

You can't use Sneak Attack with javelins because they do not have the Finesse or Ranged properties. The same applies to most other thrown weapons in the PHB (trident, spear, light hammer, hand axe, for instance). Thrown weapon Sneak Attacks are possible, RAW, if you use daggers or darts, since they have the Finesse property (and in the darts' case, they are also a ranged weapon).

As I said before - I think it is entirely reasonable for a DM to rule that Sneak Attack might apply to some natural or improvised weapon attacks, but the ruling would be exactly that: a ruling that overrides the game rules as they're printed in the books.

EDIT: The rock is not a ranged weapon. It is not even a weapon in the way that a shortsword or a quarterstaff or a glaive are. It is part of a monster's statblock and has no weapon rules at all. It has no properties. Monsters and NPCs do not use the same rules as PCs.

[EggKookoo]

The ape's rock attack is not 1d4 and has its proficiency baked into the attack roll (ie not "At the GM's option", it is +5 by RAW). Isn't that a decent case for it not being improvised when used by an ape?

I'm going to agree with this. The rock is a ranged weapon for the ape. Sneak attack away!

[Chronic]

As someone said before, monster and npc profile doesn't use weapon rules, they do not use the pc rules and have a unique stat block. So by raw, no sneak attack.

[MThurston]

As someone said before, monster and npc profile doesn't use weapon rules, they do not use the pc rules and have a unique stat block. So by raw, no sneak attack.

Why would they not use the rule. The rule is the same for a PC. To hit, weapon damage and weapon/damage type.

Monster use the same rules as PCs. State plus Prof. Damage plus ability.

Rock is listed as a ranged weapon.

The guy that said only piercing ranged applies is wrong. Thrown Weapon is a thrown weapon. I rogue that can use improvised items as weapons can use their Sneak Attack it they throw it. As long as they have advantage or someone is within 5 ft of the target.

[Unoriginal]

Monster use the same rules as PCs.

No, they don't. A monster's statblock isn't the same as a PC's character sheet. A monster's attack is part of their statblock.

For example, monsters have specific Multiattacks rather than Extra Attack. Meaning that a Druid with 5 level of Fighter won't have 3 attacks if they're Wildshapped as a Black Bear.


Rock is listed as a ranged weapon.

It isn't. The Ape's Rock attack is listed as a ranged weapon attack. It isn't the same.

[Gurgeh]

Once again - no, that is not what the rules say. The Ape's stat block does not stat out an entry for a rock with weapon properties. The rock is not a Ranged weapon, it is not a weapon at all. It is the name of an attack that the Ape is capable of making.

Some of this is down to the confusing way that 5e's combat rules are worded. The specific phrase "Ranged Weapon Attack" does not imply that a Ranged weapon is involved, it literally just means "Ranged attack that is not a Spell Attack" (since every attack is either a Spell Attack or a Weapon Attack).

If you throw a javelin at someone, you are making a Ranged Weapon Attack, but the javelin is not a Ranged weapon - it is a Melee weapon with the Thrown property. If you make an unarmed strike, you are making a Melee Weapon Attack, but this does not mean that your fists or feet or knees are Melee weapons (because they are not weapons at all).

It seems like you've made this topic expecting to be told "yes" and feel the need to push back against everyone who is telling you "no". I feel I ought to stress that I am not giving you these answers to ruin your day, I'm giving them to you because they are what the rules say - and please remember that I am attaching the important caveat of "if your group disagrees with the rules, it is okay to modify them".

I also don't understand what you're saying in some cases; nobody in the thread has mentioned "piercing" at all, and your follow-up message seems to be alluding to a house rule or DM ruling, which is fine on a table-by-table basis, but is not relevant to a rules question.

[EggKookoo]

I'm reversing my position on this. The ape can't sneak attack with a thrown rock. But it's not because the rock weapon type isn't specified in the ape's statblock.

You can derive a weapon type from the mechanics that govern it. Or, more specifically, if you can derive a weapon type from the mechanic that governs it, it's reasonable and not really a houserule to do so. What I mean is, if a creature makes a weapon attack, and you dissect the attack bonus and it's clear that the creature uses its Dexterity as the modifier, you can safely say it's either a finesse or ranged weapon (for a melee weapon attack or ranged weapon attack respectively). If the ape used its Dex for it's rock attack, then it would meet the qualifications for sneak attack. But based on the numbers, the ape uses its Strength. This means the rock, for the ape, is a melee weapon with the thrown property.

[Xihirli]

OP, why ask the question if you reject every answer you don't like?

[DigoDragon]

Monsters and NPCs do not use the same rules as PCs.

This is something I had to learn when I switched up from 3.5 to 5e. An ape throwing a rock is no more a weapon than a creature that shoots out spines. It's an attack the animal does, but it really isn't a weapon in the same sense that a PC uses. I would say that no, it doesn't count for a Sneak attack.

[EggKookoo]

This is something I had to learn when I switched up from 3.5 to 5e. An ape throwing a rock is no more a weapon than a creature that shoots out spines. It's an attack the animal does, but it really isn't a weapon in the same sense that a PC uses. I would say that no, it doesn't count for a Sneak attack.

See, I disagree here. It's pretty clear to me from looking at the numbers that the rock is a melee weapon with the thrown property. It doesn't matter that it's not explicitly labeled as such. Just as we know the ape is proficient with that attack because the attack modifier works out to be its Strength mod plus what would be the Proficiency Bonus for a creature of that CR. It all adds up.

A PC can't just pick up that rock and get the benefit that the ape can, that's true. For a PC, the rock is an improvised weapon. So in that sense, yes, the rock is not a weapon the same way it is for a PC. But if the ape grabbed a sword and started hitting you with it, that would be an improvised weapon for the ape (+Str to hit, no proficiency, damage = 1 + Str).

NPCs do have access to some features denied PCs, just as PCs have features denied to NPCs. Natural armor is a floating bonus added to many monster ACs, which is meant to represent some kind of bonus to AC along the same lines as regular armor is for PCs and some NPCs. There's no single value for the natural armor bonus, and we can imagine there is a variety of such just as different regular armor sets provide different bonuses to PC AC. They could have written it out as "natural light armor (+2)" or "natural heavy armor (+5)" or whatever, but there was no real need to and it would have just cluttered things up. An ape's AC works out to be 10 + its Dex mod of +2, and it has no natural armor. Meanwhile an owlbear's AC is 13 despite having a Dex mod of +1, so we know it has a natural armor value of +2 somewhere in there.

[sambojin]

So, being specifically skilled at throwing rocks at heads, or weak points, doesn't carry over in wildshape? Considering all the things that do.

Is it an attack with a ranged weapon? Yes. It says it is a "Ranged Weapon Attack".

Is this broken? No. It's pretty lightweight. A single 25/50' ranged attack for 1d6+3+SA damage. Pretty tame.

And even on the heavyweights of it being a Frilled Deathspitter at Moon 2/ other Druids 4, or Giant Spitting Lizard at Moon 6 (probably the only decent damage ranged attacks in the wildshape line-up), it's pretty inconsequential. A 2lvl dip for something that has very few hit points, or a 6lvl dip for something that does magical *poison* attacks that are regularly resisted or immuned against. Deathspitter has a 15/30' ranged attack, so only within 15' for advantage, and the Spitting Lizard a 30' ranged twin-attack. So, ummm, not exactly long ranged either for targets. You'd mostly stay in normal form in almost every case if decent +SA was what you wanted to do. Or do melee combat with either form to use the free HP and either 3xmultiattack or grapple-on-hit +tail-slap reaction.


A Moon 2/ BM 3-6 mix is a lot scarier than wildshape+SA, without worrying about semantics of "what is a Ranged Weapon? And an Attack with it?". 2x Attacks and Superiority Die uses adds a lot more than "must have advantage or cluster around the enemy for +xd6 damage on weak shooting form's attacks". Meh, give the multiclass Rogues some fun. I'm more worried about the on-call familiars from wildshape giving them help-action advantage, than the very few wildshape forms with ranged attacks giving them a sprinkle of extra d6's of damage every once in a while.

[Bobthewizard]

Rock is listed as a ranged weapon.

No. Rock is listed as a 'ranged weapon attack', not a 'ranged weapon'. There is a difference in 5e. If every ranged weapon attack is considered a ranged weapon then you could throw your greatsword and get sneak attack.

When you throw a melee weapon, you make a ranged weapon attack, but it is still a melee weapon with the thrown property and not a ranged weapon. Ranged weapons are listed in the players handbook in the weapon table. Some melee weapons can be thrown and used to make ranged weapon attacks but that does not make them ranged weapons.

I can't find anywhere in the rules that says a rock is a ranged weapon, just that the ape can make a ranged weapon attack with the rock.

Again, if you are the DM and you want it to work, I think you can let it work. If you are the player trying to convince your DM, I don't think your argument is RAW. You can only ask that they treat it like a ranged weapon.

[EggKookoo]

Just as a reminder, while an actual MM ape can't sneak attack, a druid/rogue wildshaped into an ape retains weapon proficiencies and is certainly capable of sneak attacking as long as it meets the weapon requirements. As was mentioned upthread, this means it could use a sling. So in that sense, yes, the wildshaped druid/rogue/ape can sneak attack with "a rock."

[sambojin]

Even a magic one, from the Magic Stone cantrip.

Then you get down to semantics of, "So does an Ape need to use a Sling to use a magic pebble from the cantrip, or is a magic pebble also a small rock? Considering it's irrelevant and the sling is better in every way anyway".

And "Why aren't they just wildshaping into a Frilled Deathspitter, or Jaculi, or Warhorse, or Constrictor Snake if they want a decent CR1/2 or swim speed form anyway?".

I love this forum, in so many ways...

[Keravath]

Here are the actions from the ape stat block

Multiattack. The ape makes two fist attacks.
Fist. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d6 + 3) bludgeoning damage.
Rock. Ranged Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, range 25/50 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d6 + 3) bludgeoning damage.

They have two possible attacks. Fist and Rock. A Fist is a Melee Weapon Attack while a Rock is a Ranged Weapon Attack. However, the Fist is NOT a Melee Weapon and the Rock is NOT a Ranged Weapon. They are either natural weapons (fist) or an improvised weapon with which the creature is proficient (rock).

If a character with the tavern brawler feat picks up a rock to throw it then they can add their proficiency bonus to the attack because it is an improvised weapon. There is no need to assume that the rock must be a Ranged Weapon just because an ape is proficient with it.

TL,DR: Just because an monster makes a Ranged Weapon Attack with some object does not make that object a Ranged Weapon. Ranged Weapons are listed in the PHB on page 149 plus anything that a DM decides is a Ranged Weapon - so RAW, rocks do not qualify.

[Keravath]

Even a magic one, from the Magic Stone cantrip.

Then you get down to semantics of, "So does an Ape need to use a Sling to use a magic pebble from the cantrip, or is a magic pebble also a small rock? Considering it's irrelevant and the sling is better in every way anyway".

And "Why aren't they just wildshaping into a Frilled Deathspitter, or Jaculi, or Warhorse, or Constrictor Snake if they want a decent CR1/2 form anyway?".

I love this forum, in so many ways...

Maybe they aren't a moon druid? An ape is only CR 1/2 so is available to any druid at 4th level.

[sambojin]

They were all CR1/2 forms, or available to all druids at lvl4, assuming they've seen one. Backstory it in :)

(Druids spend their days observing animals and plants. It's a gimme, that one. And everyone has seen a warhorse, and probably a constrictor snake too. Frilled Deathspitters, less so, unless your druid circle tends to take extra-planar trips with their heirophants to learn about dinosaurs and stuff. Maybe some Jaculi are simple, if you're from the right place, or travelled there at one point in your Druidic education in the Forgotten Realms)

An Ape with even +4-5d6 to their rocks at lvl11, Druid4(or Moon2)/Rogue7-9 with those huge 19HP and AC12, is nothing. It's barely worth considering on a two level dip from Rogue. You could be doing the same with a hand crossbow, but better.

Honestly, if you ever get to Druid 7, and grab Polymorph, and transform into a Giant Ape, have your sneak attack I reckon. You wasted 1-3+ Rogue levels that could have been druid levels getting there, so whatever man. Have fun!

[GooeyChewie]

I think @Gurgeh summed it up best in saying that the difference between a "ranged weapon attack" and an "attack with a ranged weapon" sounds pedantic, but actually makes a difference in the case of Sneak Attack. It's not immediately clear in reading, but the term "ranged weapon attack" should be read as "(ranged) (weapon attack)," not "(ranged weapon) (attack)." That is, it's a weapon attack made at range, not an attack made with a ranged weapon.

The ape's rock attack does not have a weapon stat bock associated with it. By RAW, this attack does not carry with it any weapon properties. A player familiar with the rules can easily enough back into how WotC came up with the numbers for the attack, but that's not the same as having them written.

In order to use sneak attack with the rock attack, you will need to convince your DM to make a ruling that the rock is a weapon with the "ranged" property. As a DM, I would rule that the rock is a weapon with the "thrown" property, and thus would not let you use it in conjunction with sneak attack. Then again, I would also rule that using wildshape to turn into an ape does not automatically arm you with a rock, and that using this ability requires you to have or quickly obtain a rock (which I would allow as an object interaction on most terrains).

[MThurston]

I think @Gurgeh summed it up best in saying that the difference between a "ranged weapon attack" and an "attack with a ranged weapon" sounds pedantic, but actually makes a difference in the case of Sneak Attack. It's not immediately clear in reading, but the term "ranged weapon attack" should be read as "(ranged) (weapon attack)," not "(ranged weapon) (attack)." That is, it's a weapon attack made at range, not an attack made with a ranged weapon.

The ape's rock attack does not have a weapon stat bock associated with it. By RAW, this attack does not carry with it any weapon properties. A player familiar with the rules can easily enough back into how WotC came up with the numbers for the attack, but that's not the same as having them written.

In order to use sneak attack with the rock attack, you will need to convince your DM to make a ruling that the rock is a weapon with the "ranged" property. As a DM, I would rule that the rock is a weapon with the "thrown" property, and thus would not let you use it in conjunction with sneak attack. Then again, I would also rule that using wildshape to turn into an ape does not automatically arm you with a rock, and that using this ability requires you to have or quickly obtain a rock (which I would allow as an object interaction on most terrains).

So if you take Tavern brawler can you use it as an improvised ranged attack.

Also Sharpshooter would work.

And Sneak Attack isn't cemented in Dex. A Str based rogue can us str to attack. Sneak Attack doesn't say Dex has to be used at all.

A Hexblade Rogue could use Cha in their attack and get Sneak attack.

[sambojin]

And, from the weapons table, there are only "Simple Ranged Weapons" and "Martial Ranged Weapons".

Nothing in Sneak Attack specifies what type of Ranged Weapon Attack it must be. It just needs to be an attack with a Ranged Weapon.

The Ape's Rock is a Ranged Weapon. It says it, right there. A Ranged Weapon Attack. Not Simple, not Martial, but still a Ranged Weapon.

So, Sneak Attack works. 🙄

(Are you saying that wildshape form's melee attacks aren't Melee Weapon Attacks? Even though all sage advice and general play examples and even magical items printed have shown them to be so. As in, a Pally/Druid *can* smite in wildshape, etc.)

[GooeyChewie]

So if you take Tavern brawler can you use it as an improvised ranged attack.
As the DM, I would rule yes, but there wouldn't be any real benefit to it. I would rule that the attack already includes your proficiency modifier, and as a ranged attack you are not close enough to use the grapple portion of the feat. I would rule that you could use the rock for a improvised melee weapon attack and get the benefit of the bonus action grapple. To be clear, this is how *I* would rule it, not what's written, so it's best to check with your DM.


Also Sharpshooter would work.
The first two parts of Sharpshooter (no disadvantage for long range and ignoring half and three-quarters cover) only require a ranged weapon attack, so they certainly work by RAW. The last part (-5 to hit, +10 to damage) requires an attack with a ranged weapon. By RAW the rock does not count as a ranged weapon, so you would need your DM to rule that it does to use this part of Sharpshooter with the rock. I would rule that the rock has the Thrown property and is not a ranged weapon, so I would not allow it.


And Sneak Attack isn't cemented in Dex. A Str based rogue can us str to attack. Sneak Attack doesn't say Dex has to be used at all.

A Hexblade Rogue could use Cha in their attack and get Sneak attack.
True, and I was not claiming otherwise. Sneak Attack requires the weapon have Finesse or be a ranged weapon, regardless of what ability score you end up using for the attack. In order to use Sneak Attack with the rock, your DM will need to rule that the rock fulfills one (or both) of those two qualifications. I would not do so as DM.


EDIT:

The Ape's Rock is a Ranged Weapon. It says it, right there. A Ranged Weapon Attack. Not Simple, not Martial, but still a Ranged Weapon.
A "Ranged Weapon Attack" is a weapon attack made at range, not an attack made with a ranged weapon. For example, throwing a hand axe counts as a "ranged weapon attack," but a hand axe is still considered a melee weapon and thus you cannot sneak attack by throwing it. The ape stat block does not specify what type of weapon the rock is, and thus your DM would have to make a ruling declaring it finesse and/or a ranged weapon in order for you to sneak attack with it.

Personally I think the most sensible ruling is that the rock is a melee weapon with the thrown property. Ruling that it is a ranged weapon necessitates that you also rule that it either has the finesse property or a special property making it strength-based, since ranged weapons default to Dex. But that's just *my* ruling; you should check with your DM.


(Are you saying that wildshape form's melee attacks aren't Melee Weapon Attacks? Even though all sage advice and general play examples and even magical items printed have shown them to be so. As in, a Pally/Druid *can* smite in wildshape, etc.)
Any melee attack which is not a spell attack is a "Melee Weapon Attack." Even unarmed (not wildshaped) attacks are "Melee Weapon Attacks." The reason Smite does not work with unarmed attacks by RAW is not because they aren't Melee Weapon Attacks, but because Smite adds damage "in addition to the weapon's damage" and unarmed strikes are not made with a weapon*. My understanding is that the attacks in beast stat blocks count as "natural weapons" (similar to Tabaxi claws or Minotaur horns), which is what allows you to smite with them.

*Personally I don't like that rule and would allow a player to choose unarmed fighting and smite with their fists as a Paladin.

[Unoriginal]

And, from the weapons table, there are only "Simple Ranged Weapons" and "Martial Ranged Weapons".

Nothing in Sneak Attack specifies what type of Ranged Weapon Attack it must be. It just needs to be an attack with a Ranged Weapon.

The Ape's Rock is a Ranged Weapon. It says it, right there. A Ranged Weapon Attack. Not Simple, not Martial, but still a Ranged Weapon.

Sneak Attack applies to ranged weapons. Not Ranged Weapon Attacks. The Ape's Rock is a ranged weapon attack, not a ranged weapon.

If your Rogue/Fighter multiclass throw a greatsword, can they Sneak Attack with it?



(Are you saying that wildshape form's melee attacks aren't Melee Weapon Attacks?

They're melee weapon attacks, but they are not melee weapons.

[Bobthewizard]

And, from the weapons table, there are only "Simple Ranged Weapons" and "Martial Ranged Weapons".

Nothing in Sneak Attack specifies what type of Ranged Weapon Attack it must be. It just needs to be an attack with a Ranged Weapon.

The Ape's Rock is a Ranged Weapon. It says it, right there. A Ranged Weapon Attack. Not Simple, not Martial, but still a Ranged Weapon.

So, Sneak Attack works. 🙄

(Are you saying that wildshape form's melee attacks aren't Melee Weapon Attacks? Even though all sage advice and general play examples and even magical items printed have shown them to be so. As in, a Pally/Druid *can* smite in wildshape, etc.)

It says 'ranged weapon attack', not 'ranged weapon'.

'Ranged weapon attack' is a type of attack. 'Ranged weapon' is a type of weapon. They are different things.

There are melee and ranged weapons. Ranged weapons are a type of weapon that uses DEX, while melee weapons use STR unless they have the finesse property. A melee weapon can be thrown to make a 'ranged weapon attack', but that does not turn it into a 'ranged weapon'.

Sneak attack requires either a finesse or ranged weapon.

Rocks are neither a 'ranged weapon' nor 'finesse' so cannot use sneak attack, unless the DM rules that throwing a rock is sufficiently close to using a sling that they allow it to be a ranged weapon.

But just by RAW, a rock is not a ranged weapon, even when it is thrown.

[JNAProductions]

RAW? No. Ranged Weapon Attack is not the same as an attack with a Ranged Weapon.
RAI? Probably not-you can determine, from the statblock, that the rock is statted as if it's a thrown weapon using Strength, similar to a Javelin, which ALSO does not qualify for Sneak Attack.

As a DM, I'd probably stick to RAW here. I did have a player in one of my groups take Grod's Thug (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?573380-Thug-(Strength-Rogue-Archetype)) as a gestalt Druid//Rogue to be able to Sneak Attack with most any Wildshape form, but that comes with an opportunity cost.

I'll also echo Xihirli here-if your mind is already set and you're going to reject any answer that doesn't align with your predetermined one, why post the thread?

[JackPhoenix]

The first two parts of Sharpshooter (no disadvantage for long range and ignoring half and three-quarters cover) only require a ranged weapon attack, so they certainly work by RAW. The last part (-5 to hit, +10 to damage) requires an attack with a ranged weapon.

On that note (to highlight the difference), Sharpshooter works the opposite way when shooting Magic Stones from a sling: It's a spell attack, so the first 2 parts don't apply, but it's made with a ranged weapon, so the 3rd part does. When throwing the stones by hand instead, Sharpshooter doesn't apply at all, because the stone in itself is not ranged weapon.

[DigoDragon]

It doesn't matter that it's not explicitly labeled as such.

My opinion is that it greatly matters if we're looking at it in terms of the Rules as Written.

You could technically throw any weapon on the equipment list. This action is considered a "ranged weapon attack". However it is not the same as a ranged weapon. If I picked up a bow and swung it like a bat, it would be called a "melee weapon attack", but the bow is not a melee weapon. It is an important distinction.

Only the weapons specifically listed as either a ranged weapon or a melee weapon with the thrown property will count for a sneak attack when thrown. Everything else would fall into the improvised catagory. A rock is not listed on any weapon table, so by RAW it would not qualify for SA.

[EggKookoo]

You could technically throw any weapon on the equipment list. This action is considered a "ranged weapon attack".

You use your Dex for making attacks with ranged weapons. Not (necessarily) for ranged weapon attacks. If you pick up a melee weapon with the thrown property and throw it, you make an attack with a melee weapon but make a ranged weapon attack. You use your Str for the modifier, or maybe Dex if it has the finesse property. If the weapon lacks the thrown property, you still use your Str even if it possesses the finesse property (such as a rapier).

The ape uses its Str for its rock attack. So it looks like its making an attack with a melee weapon despite making a ranged weapon attack. It not explicitly said if the rock has the thrown property (for the ape), but the fact that the ape adds its proficiency bonus to the attack roll, and deals more than 1d4 damage, means it's not an improvised weapon (even if it would be for a PC).

My conclusion is that specifically for the ape, a rock is a melee weapon with the thrown property, and it is proficient with it. It is not a ranged weapon.


Only the weapons specifically listed as either a ranged weapon or a melee weapon with the thrown property will count for a sneak attack when thrown. Everything else would fall into the improvised catagory. A rock is not listed on any weapon table, so by RAW it would not qualify for SA.

Just a quick clarification -- SA can be done with a ranged weapon (not a ranged weapon attack), or a weapon with the finesse property. The thrown property is not involved for SA qualification. This is why the ape can't do it -- it's a melee weapon with the thrown property, but that (presumably) lacks the finesse property.

[Joe the Rat]

. You use your Str for the modifier. If the weapon lacks the thrown property, you still use your Str, even if it possesses the finesse property (such as a rapier).
Now I just need to figure out how to throw a rapier without imposing disadvantage. It would certainly be unexpected.

[nickl_2000]

Let me ask this with RAW/RAI aside. Is there harm in giving sneak attack damage on this to a Rogue/Druid?

The Ape is a CR 1/2 creature with 19 hp and 12 AC and only does 1d6+3 to hit. So AC and HP really aren't breaking anything. For a Mood Druid to you access to this at level 2 for a non-moon Druid you get it at level 4.

So you are a Moon Druid 2/Rogue X. You are doing less damage than a rogue of the same level (1d8 for a weapon, likely +4/+5 to hit, and an extra 1d6 sneak attack damage) averaging 4.5 damage per round less damage. In return you are getting 19 hp on a 12 AC creature. With only 12 AC 19 hit points is basically nothing. It's two attacks against you (or 1 spell attack) that are likely to hit because 12 AC sucks. You also get 2 Druid cantrips and 3 level 1 Druid spells that you can cast when not wildshaped. However, to do this you need to focus on Wisdom, a skill that isn't often one of a Rogues top picks.

If you are a Druid X/Rogue 2 added in 1d6 extra damage from a thrown rock is nothing compared to anything that the Druid can cast (or other wildshape forms for a Moon Driud).


I guess my overall opinion here is that RAI/RAW aside, this doesn't have a significant impact on the game in any real way. So RAF to me says Yes.

[EggKookoo]

I guess my overall opinion here is that RAI/RAW aside, this doesn't have a significant impact on the game in any real way. So RAF to me says Yes.

In general I agree. It's probably fine to break the rules here. I would do so by declaring that, for the ape, the rock has the finesse property. I would also clarify that this works partly because the base damage for the rock is 1d6; the same as a dagger. So it's unlikely to break anything. But I would be less inclined to do this with a heavier rock that dealt more damage. Which kind of works narratively anyway -- the ape is specifically using a rock on the small end for this kind of thing.

[JNAProductions]

Let me ask this with RAW/RAI aside. Is there harm in giving sneak attack damage on this to a Rogue/Druid?

The Ape is a CR 1/2 creature with 19 hp and 12 AC and only does 1d6+3 to hit. So AC and HP really aren't breaking anything. For a Mood Druid to you access to this at level 2 for a non-moon Druid you get it at level 4.

So you are a Moon Druid 2/Rogue X. You are doing less damage than a rogue of the same level (1d8 for a weapon, likely +4/+5 to hit, and an extra 1d6 sneak attack damage) averaging 4.5 damage per round less damage. In return you are getting 19 hp on a 12 AC creature. With only 12 AC 19 hit points is basically nothing. It's two attacks against you (or 1 spell attack) that are likely to hit because 12 AC sucks. You also get 2 Druid cantrips and 3 level 1 Druid spells that you can cast when not wildshaped. However, to do this you need to focus on Wisdom, a skill that isn't often one of a Rogues top picks.

If you are a Druid X/Rogue 2 added in 1d6 extra damage from a thrown rock is nothing compared to anything that the Druid can cast (or other wildshape forms for a Moon Driud).


I guess my overall opinion here is that RAI/RAW aside, this doesn't have a significant impact on the game in any real way. So RAF to me says Yes.

If I had a player in my game ask “Can I use SA with wildshape?” I’d say yes. I might make a feat, a subclass, or just let them have it without any homebrew besides that houserule.

If the player acted as MThurston has, though, they be told to not act like that. I’m 100% fine with homebrew or houserules for players that want to do something cool without being broken. I’m not fine with a player absolutely refusing to take no for an answer and acting generally rude.

[JackPhoenix]

You use your Dex for making attacks with ranged weapons. Not (necessarily) for ranged weapon attacks. If you pick up a melee weapon with the thrown property and throw it, you make an attack with a melee weapon but make a ranged weapon attack. You use your Str for the modifier, or maybe Dex if it has the finesse property. If the weapon lacks the thrown property, you still use your Str even if it possesses the finesse property (such as a rapier).

Not true. You use Str to make melee weapon attacks and Dex to make ranged weapon attacks. The reason why you use Str with thrown weapon is the thrown property: "If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee attack with the weapon." If the weapon lacks thrown property, you use Dex, finesse or not, but treat it as improvised weapon.


Now I just need to figure out how to throw a rapier without imposing disadvantage. It would certainly be unexpected.

There's no disadvantage, you just don't get to add your proficiency bonus (and use 1d4 instead of the weapon damage dice) unless you have Tavern Brawler.

[EggKookoo]

Not true. You use Str to make melee weapon attacks and Dex to make ranged weapon attacks. The reason why you use Str with thrown weapon is the thrown property: "If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee attack with the weapon." If the weapon lacks thrown property, you use Dex, finesse or not, but treat it as improvised weapon.

I was under the impression throwing a "thrown" melee weapon still constituted a ranged attack. Specifically a ranged weapon attack, as distinct from an attack with a ranged weapon.

For example, a paladin's Divine Smite ability can't be used when throwing a handaxe because it turns it into a ranged weapon attack, and DS specifies a melee weapon attack (not a melee weapon specifically).

[JackPhoenix]

I was under the impression throwing a "thrown" melee weapon still constituted a ranged attack. Specifically a ranged weapon attack, as distinct from an attack with a ranged weapon.

That is correct. However, the rules for Thrown property override the general rule that you use Dex for ranged weapon attack by stating you use the same ability modifier you would use to make melee weapon attack (normally Str, but other abilities may change that again: Finesse allows you to pick Dex or Str, monk allows you to use Dex if the thrown weapon is a monk weapon, etc.).

[EggKookoo]

That is correct. However, the rules for Thrown property override the general rule that you use Dex for ranged weapon attack by stating you use the same ability modifier you would use to make melee weapon attack (normally Str, but other abilities may change that again: Finesse allows you to pick Dex or Str, monk allows you to use Dex if the thrown weapon is a monk weapon, etc.).

Isn't that what I'm saying here?

"You use your Str for the modifier, or maybe Dex if it has the finesse property."

[JackPhoenix]

Isn't that what I'm saying here?

"You use your Str for the modifier, or maybe Dex if it has the finesse property."

No.

You use your Dex for making attacks with ranged weapons.

If the weapon lacks the thrown property, you still use your Str even if it possesses the finesse property (such as a rapier).

Dart exist, and due to finesse property, allows you to make ranged weapon attacks with Str on a ranged weapon.
If the weapon lacks the thrown property, you use Dex if you want to throw it, as a default ability for ranged weapon attacks.

[EggKookoo]

Dart exist, and due to finesse property, allows you to make ranged weapon attacks with Str on a ranged weapon.
If the weapon lacks the thrown property, you use Dex if you want to throw it, as a default ability for ranged weapon attacks.

Oh I see. Sure, that works.

[sithlordnergal]

Can an ape get sneak attack from a thrown rock?

Sadly no, it can't. Sneak Attack states "Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe's distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon."

Sadly a rock does not fall into either category, and the same holds true with all wild shape forms. You can't use Sneak Attack while wild shaped because there are no beasts that use ranged weapons or finesse weapons.

[EggKookoo]

Sadly a rock does not fall into either category, and the same holds true with all wild shape forms. You can't use Sneak Attack while wild shaped because there are no beasts that use ranged weapons or finesse weapons.

There's nothing that stops a druid from wildshaping into an ape, and using its own scimitar to deliver a sneak attack.

[Abracadangit]

There's nothing that stops a druid from wildshaping into an ape, and using its own scimitar to deliver a sneak attack.

Ah yes, the lesser known sequel to Air Bud -- "Scimitar Orangutan."

"Ain't no rule that says an orangutan can't sneak attack with its scimitar."

I'd watch it.

[sithlordnergal]

There's nothing that stops a druid from wildshaping into an ape, and using its own scimitar to deliver a sneak attack.

That is very true! But for the basic natural attacks, there are no sneak attacks

[EggKookoo]

Ah yes, the lesser known sequel to Air Bud -- "Scimitar Orangutan."

"Ain't no rule that says an orangutan can't sneak attack with its scimitar."

I'd watch it.

Are you ready for... THE SCIMIAN!?

[Gurgeh]

The ape uses its Str for its rock attack. So it looks like its making an attack with a melee weapon despite making a ranged weapon attack. It not explicitly said if the rock has the thrown property (for the ape), but the fact that the ape adds its proficiency bonus to the attack roll, and deals more than 1d4 damage, means it's not an improvised weapon (even if it would be for a PC).
A clarification: improvised weapons do not necessarily do 1d4 damage. The 1d4 in the rules block is specifically called out for "an object that bears no resemblance to a weapon", and there is a fair bit of wriggle room, RAW, for exactly what properties an improvised weapon should be assigned.

Further clarification from later in the thread: daggers are only 1d4, not 1d6. The 1d6 thrown weapons in the PHB are the handaxe and javelin.


Ah yes, the lesser known sequel to Air Bud -- "Scimitar Orangutan."

"Ain't no rule that says an orangutan can't sneak attack with its scimitar."

I'd watch it.
https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/023/322/legiao_p6_VNkO0Gm43CQngolqUh7jFvAYitPDuZT8rK9eLHI. jpg

[EggKookoo]

A clarification: improvised weapons do not necessarily do 1d4 damage. The 1d4 in the rules block is specifically called out for "an object that bears no resemblance to a weapon", and there is a fair bit of wriggle room, RAW, for exactly what properties an improvised weapon should be assigned.

Further clarification from later in the thread: daggers are only 1d4, not 1d6. The 1d6 thrown weapons in the PHB are the handaxe and javelin.

Appreciated on both points.

[elyktsorb]

Let me ask this with RAW/RAI aside. Is there harm in giving sneak attack damage on this to a Rogue/Druid?


I mean, other than the fact that your taking away the penalty for multiclassing a druid in general in that allowing sneak attack in wild shape makes up for the reduced creature form. Normally you'd just take a few rogue levels for the utility stuff, or a few druid levels for utility wildshape things.

Ultimately it'll be further reduced when you start running into enemies that resist non-magical attacks, since if you're leveling them equally your druid beast attacks won't be magical until 10thish level.

Rogue/Druid is pretty bad if your doing it evenly and focusing on beast wild shapes.

[MThurston]

If I had a player in my game ask “Can I use SA with wildshape?” I’d say yes. I might make a feat, a subclass, or just let them have it without any homebrew besides that houserule.

If the player acted as MThurston has, though, they be told to not act like that. I’m 100% fine with homebrew or houserules for players that want to do something cool without being broken. I’m not fine with a player absolutely refusing to take no for an answer and acting generally rude.

LOL.

Passive aggressive much!

I love the answers where they tell us that it's a weapon for a PC but it's not a weapon for a monster.

By RAW it follows the rules. By RAW dex doesn't have to be used. A rogue with an 18 Str and 12 Dex can throw the dagger with Str and get the SA. SA never in it's description ties it to a stat.

Just wanted to add this.

Range is given in () and is added to a none ranged weapon profile.

Rock on the Ape is clearly a ranged weapon attack. And it shouldn't matter where you want to finesse thise three words.

Ranged Weapon
Weapon Attack

Now I can see that people get confused when looking at ranged description but that shouldn't lead you down a rabbit hole.

Apes have an unique ability to this rocks and for them the rocks are ranged weapons.

I will concede that some DMs will have to make a choice here because they will fall into the same rabbit hole.

I'm just over here wondering how bad ass an assassin ape with magic rocks can deal unbelievable damage on the first turn of combat.

[Gurgeh]

For the last time: a "ranged weapon attack" does not necessarily mean that a ranged weapon is involved. There are no rabbit holes, it's just a matter of reading the rules for the Sneak Attack class feature, which require a weapon that has the ranged or finesse properties.

Throwing a handaxe is a ranged weapon attack using a melee weapon that has the thrown property. Do you think a rogue is able to use sneak attack with this?

Throwing a greatsword is a ranged weapon attack using an improvised weapon. Do you think a rogue is able to sneak attack with this?

By the RAW, there is no difference between these two scenarios and the Ape's rock attack, because none of the three attacks involve a weapon that has the ranged or finesse properties. None of them qualify for sneak attack, just as none of them qualify for the boost from the Archery fighting style or for Sharpshooter's -5/+10 bullet point (though all three would qualify for Sharpshooter's first two points, since they don't require a ranged weapon).

A RAW answer is not an answer about what the rules should be, or whether the rules are sensible or fair. It's about what the rules are, for better or worse. If you're going to insist on ignoring the straightforward rules being presented to you, then I don't think there's any point persisting with this topic.

To be perfectly clear: I'm not making any arguments about balance. I'm not saying it's unfair for you to try and get this benefit. I am saying that it is against the rules as they are printed in the rulebooks. If you and your DM wish to alter the rules for your game to allow it, I do not think it will cause any problems.

From a balance point of view, it's probably fine; maybe a shade overtuned at very low levels, but hardly earth-shattering. The rock does have longer short range and a larger damage die than a dart or dagger (the two thrown weapons you can use with sneak attack), but in both cases it's only slightly better, and you'd almost always get more damage as a single-classed rogue since you'll get more sneak attack dice and the benefits of better boosts from your ability modifier, proficiency bonus, and potential magic weapons.

[EggKookoo]

Rock on the Ape is clearly a ranged weapon attack. And it shouldn't matter where you want to finesse thise three words.

Ranged Weapon
Weapon Attack

That's not how it works.

As Gurgeh and many others have said, ranged weapon attack and attack with a ranged weapon are not the same thing. I don't blame anyone for not getting this at first. It's dumb terminology on the part of the game. They created "weapon attack" to contrast with "spell attack."

[GooeyChewie]

By RAW it follows the rules. By RAW dex doesn't have to be used. A rogue with an 18 Str and 12 Dex can throw the dagger with Str and get the SA. SA never in it's description ties it to a stat.
Nobody is claiming Sneak Attack is tied to Dex. Sneak Attack is tied to weapons which are classified as ranged weapons, or which have the Finesse property, or both.

•A Rogue who stabs an enemy with a dagger using Strength can Sneak Attack, because the dagger has Finesse
•A Rogue/Hexblade multiclass who stabs an enemy with a rapier using Charisma can Sneak Attack, because the rapier has Finesse
•A Rogue/Monk multiclass who bonks an enemy with a quarterstaff using Dexterity cannot Sneak Attack, because Martial Arts does not bestow the Finesse property on Monk Weapons
•A Rogue who throws a hand axe at an enemy cannot Sneak Attack, even though the attack is a Ranged Weapon Attack, because the weapon itself is not a Ranged Weapon, nor is it Finesse. The fact that this attack would use Strength is not what disqualifies it from Sneak Attack.


Rock on the Ape is clearly a ranged weapon attack. And it shouldn't matter where you want to finesse thise three words.

Ranged Weapon
Weapon Attack
It's actually:

Ranged Attack
Weapon Attack

I agree it's poorly worded. WotC uses "Ranged" in two different ways, both to describe a type of weapon and to describe a type of attack. They also use "Weapon" in two different ways, both as a type of object (noun) and to describe a type of attack (adjective). In the phrase "Ranged Weapon Attack," both "Ranged" and "Weapon" are describing the type of attack.

[MThurston]

Nobody is claiming Sneak Attack is tied to Dex. Sneak Attack is tied to weapons which are classified as ranged weapons, or which have the Finesse property, or both.

•A Rogue who stabs an enemy with a dagger using Strength can Sneak Attack, because the dagger has Finesse
•A Rogue/Hexblade multiclass who stabs an enemy with a rapier using Charisma can Sneak Attack, because the rapier has Finesse
•A Rogue/Monk multiclass who bonks an enemy with a quarterstaff using Dexterity cannot Sneak Attack, because Martial Arts does not bestow the Finesse property on Monk Weapons
•A Rogue who throws a hand axe at an enemy cannot Sneak Attack, even though the attack is a Ranged Weapon Attack, because the weapon itself is not a Ranged Weapon, nor is it Finesse. The fact that this attack would use Strength is not what disqualifies it from Sneak Attack.


It's actually:

Ranged Attack
Weapon Attack

I agree it's poorly worded. WotC uses "Ranged" in two different ways, both to describe a type of weapon and to describe a type of attack. They also use "Weapon" in two different ways, both as a type of object (noun) and to describe a type of attack (adjective). In the phrase "Ranged Weapon Attack," both "Ranged" and "Weapon" are describing the type of attack.

It's worded to work by RAW. Which is why I believe its workable by the rules.

[EggKookoo]

I agree it's poorly worded. WotC uses "Ranged" in two different ways, both to describe a type of weapon and to describe a type of attack. They also use "Weapon" in two different ways, both as a type of object (noun) and to describe a type of attack (adjective). In the phrase "Ranged Weapon Attack," both "Ranged" and "Weapon" are describing the type of attack.

They're in a bind. Spell attack (ranged or melee) is pretty easy to understand. But the alternative is a non-spell attack, which is a clumsy way of putting it. They could say object attack but that's weird. Non-magic attack is confusing (does my +1 magical sword count as a non-magic attack?). Mundane attack has a similar problem.

I guess they could use something like default attack or normal attack, or even just attack (the way we have a bonus action and an action, which are both types of actions, instead of something like bonus and standard).


It's worded to work by RAW. Which is why I believe its workable by the rules.

What does "worded to work" mean?

[MThurston]

Nobody is claiming Sneak Attack is tied to Dex. Sneak Attack is tied to weapons which are classified as ranged weapons, or which have the Finesse property, or both.

•A Rogue who stabs an enemy with a dagger using Strength can Sneak Attack, because the dagger has Finesse
•A Rogue/Hexblade multiclass who stabs an enemy with a rapier using Charisma can Sneak Attack, because the rapier has Finesse
•A Rogue/Monk multiclass who bonks an enemy with a quarterstaff using Dexterity cannot Sneak Attack, because Martial Arts does not bestow the Finesse property on Monk Weapons
•A Rogue who throws a hand axe at an enemy cannot Sneak Attack, even though the attack is a Ranged Weapon Attack, because the weapon itself is not a Ranged Weapon, nor is it Finesse. The fact that this attack would use Strength is not what disqualifies it from Sneak Attack.


It's actually:

Ranged Attack
Weapon Attack

I agree it's poorly worded. WotC uses "Ranged" in two different ways, both to describe a type of weapon and to describe a type of attack. They also use "Weapon" in two different ways, both as a type of object (noun) and to describe a type of attack (adjective). In the phrase "Ranged Weapon Attack," both "Ranged" and "Weapon" are describing the type of attack.

It's worded to work by RAW. Which is why I believe its workable by the rules.

[JNAProductions]

It's worded to work by RAW. Which is why I believe its workable by the rules.

Can a Rogue Sneak Attack with a thrown Handaxe?

[Segev]

It actually seems to me to be a DM's call whether an Ape's rock qualifies as a ranged weapon or not. We are not given rules either way. It certainly seems to do different damage than an improvised weapon, and it does not seem to have a melee option.

[JNAProductions]

It actually seems to me to be a DM's call whether an Ape's rock qualifies as a ranged weapon or not. We are not given rules either way. It certainly seems to do different damage than an improvised weapon, and it does not seem to have a melee option.

It also seems to use Strength as its attack stat, not Dexterity, so it's likely intended as a thrown weapon. Not a ranged one.

I mean, as said before, there's not really a balance issue, far as anyone here can really tell. But "Would be fine to allow," is not the same as "RAW definitely allows this."

[EggKookoo]

It also seems to use Strength as its attack stat, not Dexterity, so it's likely intended as a thrown weapon. Not a ranged one.

The lack of a melee option is an interesting quirk. At the same time, the ape's Fist attack is identical to a melee attack with its Rock attack, so maybe they didn't provide the latter just for efficiency.

[Segev]

It also seems to use Strength as its attack stat, not Dexterity, so it's likely intended as a thrown weapon. Not a ranged one.

I mean, as said before, there's not really a balance issue, far as anyone here can really tell. But "Would be fine to allow," is not the same as "RAW definitely allows this."

Technically, you can have a thrown ranged weapon. See: Dart. Which is both thrown and finesse, ironically with finesse allowing strength to be used with it.

I don't disagree with your analysis, so much as I am arguing that it is, in fact, arguable, and really does call for a DM's adjudication.

[JNAProductions]

Technically, you can have a thrown ranged weapon. See: Dart. Which is both thrown and finesse, ironically with finesse allowing strength to be used with it.

I don't disagree with your analysis, so much as I am arguing that it is, in fact, arguable, and really does call for a DM's adjudication.

I agree.

But “Requires DM adjudication,” is not the same as “Is allowed by RAW.” Which is the OP’s stance.

[Segev]

I agree.

But “Requires DM adjudication,” is not the same as “Is allowed by RAW.” Which is the OP’s stance.

It is also not the same as, "is disallowed by RAW," and I am trying to make it clear that the RAW are unclear, rather than being binary.

[EggKookoo]

It is also not the same as, "is disallowed by RAW," and I am trying to make it clear that the RAW are unclear, rather than being binary.

The RAW is clear. I think we're really talking about RAI.

[Segev]

The RAW is clear. I think we're really talking about RAI.

I disagree. The RAW can be read such that the rock is a ranged weapon. It can also be read such that it is not. The RAW are not clear.

[EggKookoo]

I disagree. The RAW can be read such that the rock is a ranged weapon. It can also be read such that it is not. The RAW are not clear.

It's all in how you see RAW. To me, if it doesn't explicitly say a thing, it's not RAW. Which is fine -- lots of things aren't RAW. But I guess that's what RAI is as far as I can tell.

FWIW, Mearls feels it's okay to allow SA with any weapon attack that deals 1d6 or less (https://www.sageadvice.eu/sneak-attack-d6/), but I think that's just his way of saying it won't break anything.

[GooeyChewie]

We had this conversation not all that long ago regarding Shadow Blade with Booming Blade/Green Flame Blade. It was a similar situation, where the rules do not specifically say the weapon in question meets the requirement to be used with a certain feature.

You can think of it as “RAW does not allow this combination,” or you can think of it as “RAW is unclear on this combination.” But either way, the effective outcome is the same. In order to use Sneak Attack with an ape’s rock, you need the DM to rule that it works.

[Keravath]

I disagree. The RAW can be read such that the rock is a ranged weapon. It can also be read such that it is not. The RAW are not clear.

I don't think this is the case. Ranged weapons are listed on the weapons table of the Player's Handbook. That is RAW.

You can find "ranged weapon attacks" in many places in the source material - in the monster manual, attacks with ranged weapons, thrown attacks with melee weapons, thrown attacks with finesse weapons (eg dart) etc.

However, unless a person decides that RAW means every "ranged weapon attack" implies that the weapon being used is a "ranged weapon" - which is clearly NOT true since "ranged weapon attacks" can be made with ranged weapons, melee weapons and improvised weapons - then anything used for a "ranged weapon attack" can NOT be assumed to be a "ranged weapon".

In the case of a rock, it is used to make a "ranged weapon attack" - this is NOT sufficient to call the rock a "ranged weapon" as noted above. Is a rock a ranged weapon, a melee weapon, an improvised weapon or something else? Keep in mind that the rules which are applied to PCs are explicitly NOT applied to NPCs so there could be other categories of object used as weapons (alternatively, an NPC could easily be given the ability to be proficient with an improvised weapon of some sort - a PC can gain this ability with the Tavern Brawler feat so an NPC could easly be made proficient with a rock).

The bottom line is that stat used to resolve the attack, proficiency, and other characteristics of the Ape's rock attack do NOT imply that a rock is a "ranged weapon". The only "ranged weapons" defined in RAW are listed in the PHB weapons table and a rock is NOT listed there.

Can a DM decide that a rock is a ranged weapon? Absolutely.
Can a DM allow an ape to use sneak attack with a rock? Absolutely

However, RAW, a rock is not a ranged weapon. There is nothing in the rules that says it is a ranged weapon - the entire discussion here is about implications of the Ape stat block that might or might not give some idea as to RAI as to whether the rock used by an ape is a ranged weapon. The rock is not called a ranged weapon in the stat block, a rock is not listed as a ranged weapon - a rock is not a ranged weapon RAW - a rock does not qualify for sneak attack RAW.

P.S. If it were a PC with the tavern brawler feat picking up a rock - could they get sneak attack? If not why should the ape?

[Gurgeh]

Yes, that's the core of the problem. If you're speculating about what properties the rock might have if it were written up like the PHB weapons, then you're appealing to Rules-as-unwritten.

[Segev]

I mean, if we go too far down that rabbit hole, "throw rock" doesn't say it's thrown and doesn't say it uses ammo, despite the name, since the name isn't technically binding on any of the mechanics. So there may not be a rock that's actually thrown, and the ape just does bludgeoning damage by willing it to happen. :smalltongue:

[EggKookoo]

I mean, if we go too far down that rabbit hole, "throw rock" doesn't say it's thrown and doesn't say it uses ammo, despite the name, since the name isn't technically binding on any of the mechanics. So there may not be a rock that's actually thrown, and the ape just does bludgeoning damage by willing it to happen. :smalltongue:

I'm sure this isn't the first place someone has pointed out that interpreting "what really happens" through the lens of pure RAW leads to some pretty absurd results.

[Gurgeh]

Indeed. RAW discussions are not about whether the rules are sensible, they're just about what is there on the page. It doesn't necessarily lead you to a sensible destination.

My take, setting aside black-letter RAW and instead engaging on the level of rules-with-reasonable-assumptions-included, is still no go on the sneak attack because there's no grounds for a rock to be a ranged weapon or a finesse weapon.It's not finely balanced or capable of making precise strikes, and given it's capable of inflicting the same damage as deadly edged weapons despite being a blunt object it's clearly got a fair bit of mass.

I can't envision any interpretation of 5e's sneak attack rules that allows a rock to qualify without also allowing a thrown axe or javelin (or greatsword).

[BerzerkerUnit]

By strict RAW, no. Sneak Attack requires you to use a finesse or ranged weapon. While the Ape's rock attack is a "ranged weapon attack", that doesn't mean that the rock itself is a ranged weapon; all thrown weapon attacks are "ranged weapon attacks" even though most thrown weapons are melee weapons, after all.

That said - I wouldn't consider it beyond the pale for a DM to rule in favour of wild shaped sneak attacks, provided they're clear that it is a deliberate departure from the printed rules.

Emphasis mine-

Note: I don't know if a dev has commented about this and I don't care. That's not a reasonable interpretation of rules intent (again, regardless of what any author may have said). Anything with a listed range increment is a ranged weapon. Rocks are not on the list at all but can clearly be thrown with significant accuracy. I'd argue you could use "sling" and the listed range for the monkey rock. Hand axes/hatchets can clearly be thrown with significant accuracy, there is an entire sport dedicated to such throwing contests.

Should it be "anything you throw?" Not what I said. Great sword, battle axe etc do not have listed ranges, but spears, javelins, etc should all qualify for sneak attack (and Sharpshooter and Archery fighting style).

[Gurgeh]

That's not what the rules say when it comes to ranged weapons. That's what you think the rules ought to be, which is a completely different matter.

Anything with a listed range increment is a ranged weapon.
No, a weapon is a ranged weapon if it's listed as a ranged weapon in the weapons table. The rules explicitly say that every weapon is either a melee or a ranged weapon - so, implicitly, a weapon cannot be both. Your ruling would mean that someone using with a handaxe at melee range would have to either treat it as an improvised weapon (since they're using a ranged weapon to make a melee attack) or would have to attack at disadvantage (because they're making a ranged attack at a target within five feet).

If you think it is silly that ranged and melee are mutually exclusive weapon types then that is fine, and you're welcome to houserule it away and have some weapons be both - but that's not how the rules in the books work.

[EggKookoo]

I can't envision any interpretation of 5e's sneak attack rules that allows a rock to qualify without also allowing a thrown axe or javelin (or greatsword).

But allowing a wildshaped rogue in Ape form to SA with a thrown rock is cool!

[Keravath]

Emphasis mine-

Note: I don't know if a dev has commented about this and I don't care. That's not a reasonable interpretation of rules intent (again, regardless of what any author may have said). Anything with a listed range increment is a ranged weapon. Rocks are not on the list at all but can clearly be thrown with significant accuracy. I'd argue you could use "sling" and the listed range for the monkey rock. Hand axes/hatchets can clearly be thrown with significant accuracy, there is an entire sport dedicated to such throwing contests.

Should it be "anything you throw?" Not what I said. Great sword, battle axe etc do not have listed ranges, but spears, javelins, etc should all qualify for sneak attack (and Sharpshooter and Archery fighting style).

I'd just like to point out the 5e rules since that is what we are discussing - not what we might like them to be.

5e allows ranged weapon attacks with
- ranged weapons (defined as such by the table in the PHB - bows, crossbow, slings, darts, blowgun)
- melee weapons with the thrown property (axes, dagger, javelins, trident, spear etc)
- improvised weapons (with or without proficiency depending on circumstance, situation, DM judgement and PC vs NPC usage)

In addition, some of the melee weapons have the finesse property allowing them to be used with either strength or dex.

Sneak attack requires that the attack be made with either a ranged weapon or a finesse weapon.

If you say "Anything with a listed range increment is a ranged weapon." then a rogue can sneak attack with axes, javelins, tridents, light hammer, spears etc since you have now categorized them as ranged weapons while the rules clearly state them as melee weapons with the thrown property.

Anyway, RAW, a rock used by an Ape is not defined. It is an attack in a stat block. At best it could be interpreted as an improvised weapon attack with which it has proficiency (unless the DM rules otherwise which they are entitled to do but it is a house rule). A rock is not listed anywhere as a ranged weapon so RAW it is NOT a ranged weapon.

Finally, Yes, a wild shaped druid rogue using sneak attack on thrown rocks IS cool :) ... it also doesn't break game balance in any way that I can see ... so if I was running it, there is a good chance I would allow it as a house rule knowing full well that it was not RAW but fun for the player.

[dafrca]

So after reading this thread it comes down to, like most things, a GM call in the end. :smallsmile:

[nickl_2000]

So after reading this thread it comes down to, like most things, a GM call in the end. :smallsmile:

That is the answer to nearly every question you will ever have when it comes to Wildshaping.