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Lostintransit
2007-11-19, 04:33 PM
Okay, well here is an idea me and my gaming group came up with for the History Monks of the Discworld. Anyone who has read thief of time has an idea what I'm on about.

I've posted it here to see what people think. The basic thoughts behind it were; a trade off, guaranteed flurry as per a regular monk, to be replaced with the time splicing. A number of the monks abilities became special abilities gained at later levels. All feedback welcomed. (try to keep it constructive though!)

(I must point out that the knowledge (time) skill is, as of yet, a campaign specific skill, as we are using it to see if the monks know what is supposed to happen at certain times. Sort of like a Deus Ex Machina)

EDIT: added a Time Feat at level 1 and changed splicing to slicing, also circular reincarnation to aging.
EDIT:Changed Time Feats to Time Training.
EDIT: Added Text regarding bonus type, haste clause, and attacks with unarmed while splicing.
EDIT: added slow clause, no longer time bonus.
EDIT: Added bits to Enlightenment - spend time points to re-roll
EDIT: added Upsidazi to Time Training.
EDIT: added a bit of background info.
EDIT: added craft(Bonzai Mountains) as a class skill.
EDIT: added Time Focus as a 2nd level abilitly, put in losing unspent points.
EDIT: Added in Wisdom of History ability.
EDIT: added class restriction clause thanks to a heads up on mass +Xd6 damage classes. (now removed due to other fixes)
EDIT: added in more clauses with Time slicing, change a number of stance abilities.
EDIT: changed the number of attacks generated by Djim. Editted some abilities further.

History Monk

The secret order of the History Monks is one of the Discworlds most important Sects. They have a responsibility to see history follows the right track, as set out in the huge lead-bound History Books - 20,000 of them, ten feet high, with printing small enough to need a magnifying glass to read. "When people say "it is written" - it is written here."

The main role of the monastery is to ensure anything relating to time, happens at all. Unfortunatly on the discworld people's perception of time affects its flow on the Disc, and the Monks must ensure this does not become a problem, by, as an example, taking some time from the middle of the ocean ('how much time does a codfish need?') and putting it in a busy Ankh-Morpork workshop with a deadline to meet.

They also frequently need to enter the world, to take a more direct hand in events. It is for this reason that a number of monks have been trained as ninjas. Many of them have since been retrained by Lu-Tze, who believes most problems can be sorted out without resorting to martial arts.

The main source of their control, lies in Oi-Dong, located High in the Ramtop mountains. This is were time is managed by means of spinning cylinders called "procrastinators", which look like Tibetan prayer wheels.

Abilities: Wisdom is the most important ability for a History Monk as it determines how many Time points they get each day, it also effects a number of other class abilities. Strength, Dexterity and Constitution are not as important but will play a major part if the character is going to be fighting alot near the front ranks.
Alignment: Lawful Neutral.
Hit Die: D8

Class Skills
The history Monks Class skills (and the Key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int),Craft (Bonzai Mountains) (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Jump (Dex), Knowledge (Geography) (Int), Knowledge (History) (Int), Knowledge (Time) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), and Tumble (Dex)
Skill points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) X 4
Skill points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int Modifier

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Time Slicing(1st Djim), Okidoki, Time Training

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+3|Evasion, Time Focus

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+3|Time Slicing(2nd Djim)

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Time Training

5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Shiitake, Wisdom of History

6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+5|Time Slicing(3rd Djim)

7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+5|Uncanny Dodge

8th|
+6/+1|
+2|
+6|
+6|Time Training

9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+6|Time Slicing(4th Djim)

10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+7|
+7|Chang-fu

11th|
+8/+3|
+3|
+7|
+7|Improved Evasion, Wisdom of History

12th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+8|
+8|Time Slicing(5th Djim), Time Training

13th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+8|
+8|Circular Aging

14th|
+10/+5|
+4|
+9|
+9|Improved Uncanny Dodge

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+9|
+9|Time Slicing(6th Djim), Torro-fu

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+10|Time Training

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+10|Enlightenment

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+11|Time Slicing(7th Djim), Wisdom of History

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+11|Zimmerman's Valley

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+6|
+12|
+12|Deja-fu, Time Training[/table]

Class Features

Weapon and Armour Proficiency: History Monks are proficient with all simple weapons and all light martial weapons. They are also proficient with the Kama, Nunchaku, Sai and Siangham. History Monks are not Proficient with any armour or shields - in fact, many of the History Monks special powers require unfettered movement.
When wearing armour, using a shield, or carrying a medium or heavy load, a History monk loses his Time Slicing, Time Training, Torro-fu and Deja-fu abilities.
Time Slicing (Ex): A History Monk is taught from early training to manipulate the flow of time around them. A well trained History Monk can slice time so fine that they can act faster than the eye can follow.

At the start of each day the History monk generates a number of time points, the number of time points generated is equal to the History Monks level x his Wisdom modifier. Whenever the History monk generates more time points he loses any time points not spent during the previous day.

When unarmoured and unencumbered the History Monk can spend these time points to activate any level of Djim he has reached. Each Djim costs a number of time points to activate equal to its level (So a 6th level Djim would cost 6 time points, for example.) The benefits granted by a Djim last until the start of the History Monks next action. A character can only have one Djim active at any one time, but is allowed to freely change between the different levels of Djim at the start of each of his actions.

To activate a Djim takes no time at all, but a History monk can do it only during his action (see Initiative, page 136 of PHB), not in response to someone else's action. A History Monk can't, for example, activate a Djim when attacked in order to get the increased AC, although the extra AC would be a benefit if he had activated his Djim earlier in the round, before the attack was made.

Any attacks made while a Djim is Active may only be made with unarmed strikes, Kama, Nunchaku, Sai and Siangham. While Time Slicing a History Monk loses all benefits granted by the Haste spell and all penalties gained by the Slow spell.

While a Djim is active, the Time Monk gains a number of benefits due to his highly accelerated speed. He gains a bonus to armor class, attack and damage rolls, and reflex saves, and his speed increases. Additionally, when making a full attack action, he gains a number of additional attacks at his full attack modifier. See the table below for the exact benefits gained at each Djim level.

{table=head]Djim Level|Attack and Damge Bonus|AC Bonus|Ref Save Bonus|Movement Bonus|Additional Attacks

1st|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+30Ft|
+1

2nd|
+2|
+2|
+2|
+60Ft|
+1

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+90Ft|
+2

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+120Ft|
+2

5th|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+150Ft|
+3

6th|
+6|
+6|
+6|
+180Ft|
+3

7th|
+7|
+7|
+7|
+210Ft|
+4[/table]

Okidoki (Ex): Okidoki is a Strange martial art taught to all Monks at the History Temple, it mainly focuses on using the Monks own body for attacking rather than relying on weapons. This is abilitiy functions exactly like the Unarmed Strike ability of a Monk.
Time Training (Ex): As a History Monk learns to control their Time manipulating powers, they pick up useful skills that can help them further. On attaining 1st level, and at every four levels thereafter (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th), a history Monk gains a Time Feat of his choice from among the following options.

Stance of the Coyote (Ex): The History monk may spend two time points to negate any effects from falling and to land on their feet after falling.

Stance of the Moon (Ex): The History monk needs to only sleep for four hours to gain the benefits of a full nights sleep, or twelve hours to gain the benefits of a Full days rest.

Closing of the Flower (Ex): The History Monk may erase his presence from the world, people will forget him, pictures of him will disappear and his name will vanish from records. If the history monk spends 24 hours in meditation doing nothing else, he may upon completion of his meditation, have all existence of him removed. The Monk may choose up to one item or person per History monk level to remain unaffected by this ability. If a sentient creature is targeted by this ability it is allowed a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 History Monk level + Wisdom Mod) to remember them still. The character is unaware of the attempt to earse the History Monk's presence. Gods or other such powerful creatures and any other History Monks remain unaffected by this ability.

Stance of the Monkey (Ex): The History Monk becomes adept at using even the smallest Slice to his advantage, protecting him from danger. When unarmoured and unencumbered, the History Monk adds his Wisdom modifier (if any) to his AC. This Bonus applies even against Touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses this bonus when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armour, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load. The History Monk also generates two less time points from his total maximum allowed. This ability does not stack with any other abilty that grants your wisdom modifier to AC.

Tung-pi (Ex): The History monk is immune to all forms of environmental damage. The History Monk also generates one less time point from his total maximum allowed.

Stance of the Mountain (Ex): The History Monk can draw strength from Time itself, mending his wounds. A History Monk can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to twice his current History Monk level each day, and he may spread this healing out among several uses.

Stance of Surprise (Ex): Whenever the History Monk is called upon to make an Initiative Check, he may spend two time points to get a bonus to the roll equal to his History Monk level.

Upsidazi (Ex): The History Monk has become adept at reacting to abnormal time situtions, allowing him to react almost instantly to anyone manipulating time. The History Monk is immune to all effects from time based spells and acts normally during any such situtions. The History Monk generates two less time points from his total maximum allowed.

Evasion (Ex): This ability functions exactly like the Evasion ability of a Monk.
Time Focus (Ex): One of the most useful techniques the History Monk learns is to store his own personal time, allowing him to use it when the situation requires. Whenever a History Monk generates time points he may keep up to his wisdom score of unspent time points and add these to his newly generated time point total.
Shiitake (Ex): This Martial art teaches the History Monk to use his great wisdom to predict the effects of attacks. The History Monk may, instead of using the relevant modifier, use his Wisdom Modifier for all Fortitude and Reflex saves.
Wisdom of History (Ex): As a History monk studies in Oi-Dong, they gain a deeper understanding of the universe. On attaining 5th level, and at every level marked thereafter (11th and 18th), a History Monks Wisdom Score increases by +1. These increases stack and are gained as if through level advancement.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): This ability functions exactly like the Uncanny Dodge ability of a Barbarian.
Chang-fu (Ex): This Martial art teaches that little can stand against the ravages of time, even gods will eventually fade away. A History monk of 10th level or higher ignores all Damage reduction and Hardness.
Improved Evasion (Ex): This ability functions exactly like the Improved Evasion ability of a Monk.
Circular Aging (Ex): As a History monk learns to control time, his understanding of death and its effects increases, until he reaches a level of understanding that grants him eternal life. A History Monk of 13th level or higher, never take penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any such penalties already taken however remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, but the History Monk will not die of old age. The History Monk also becomes immune to all mundane Diseases and all (Magical and Mundane) Poisons.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): This ability functions exactly like the Improved Uncanny Dodge ability of a Barbarian.
Torro-fu (Ex): This martial art allows the History monk to move so fast he doesn't even appear as a blur. A number of times per day per point of Wisdom modifier the History monk has, he may act as if under the efffect of a Time Stop Spell. The History monk may keep up any Time Slicing he has during the rounds, spending time points as normal.
Enlightenment (Ex): The History Monk has reached a state of understanding for all things. The History monk can comunicate with anything that has an Intelligence of 3 or higher in its native tongue.
Also whenever the History Monk rolls a D20, he may spend three time points to re-roll the dice, picking and keeping whichever of the two results he prefers.
Zimmerman's Valley (Ex): A History Monk of 19th level or higher can safely reach Zimmerman's Valley. When a History Monk Time Slices, every round after the first that he continues to use the same Djim, costs him three time points less. For example if he used the 7th level Djim then for the first round it would cost him seven time points then on the second and subsiquent rounds it would cost him only four time points. The cost of a Djim can never be taken below one.
Deja-fu (Ex): This martial art is a legendary technique that only few have ever known. To anyone observing the History Monk it appears as if he is standing stock still yet his opponents are feeling the effects of blows. A master in this art is actually attacking his opponents from the past, his mastery of time is such that he is pulling his opponents body through different speeds of time. While Time Slicing the History monk may, as a Full round action, perform a Deja-fu attack. This attack is the same as the History monks regular full attack action, but may target any opponent within a single move action away and line of sight. The History Monk does not move during the attack and remains in exactly the same spot. As long as the History monk would of had sufficient movement to reach his target, it may be attacked.

puppyavenger
2007-11-19, 06:12 PM
um Lu-Tze andlobsong definetly aren't lawful.

Alex12
2007-11-19, 06:26 PM
You should give them a new History-Monk-only magic item called a timespinner. It'd be a self-charging device that stores Time Points (and maybe have a timestealer ability or something)

Nebo_
2007-11-19, 06:37 PM
I don't think that Stance of the Monkey shoule be a time feat. That, or it should come before level 4.

Lostintransit
2007-11-19, 06:38 PM
Well I know their are exceptions to the rules in terms of Lu-Tze and Lobsang, but one was so enlightened nothing he did could be considered chaotic and the other was an incarnation of time so by default had special circumstances apply!

But thats not the point the real question is, what about the rules themselves, do they seem ok? to good? to bad? thats the crux of the issue!!:smallsmile:

EDIT: double post! oh and why don't you think it should be a time feat? If given as standard it makes them slightly to powerful we thought....

DracoDei
2007-11-19, 07:11 PM
The way it worked in the books Zimmermans valley would have been Time Stop that last for... oh... about 10 minutes per time point spent! :smallcool: (but probably requires about 10 to 30 points to activate before you can start spending for the duration)

Nebo_
2007-11-19, 08:50 PM
Having really bad AC for the first four levels would be pretty frustrating for a player. It wouldn't be overpowered at all to give it to them at level 1.

DracoDei
2007-11-19, 08:55 PM
Also it isn't Circular REINCARNATION it is CIRCULAR AGING. (Serial Reincarnation is what people who can't quite get the hang of Circular Aging do, the abbot was one of these).

tyckspoon
2007-11-20, 12:57 AM
In the printing of the book I have, the ability is time slicing, as in 'cutting it close'. Each passing second is cut into finer and finer bits, and the skill is in fitting yourself into those microseconds. Of course, the History Monks do a lot of splicing as well, it's just usually more in the style of taking a chunk of time out of the middle of a prehistoric ocean and dropping it into the present day where people need it.

Other than that this looks pretty nice. I was concerned when I saw the 'lose time points generated' clauses on some of the special abilities, but you were generous enough with the time points that those probably won't be a problem. It'd be fun to work up a prestige class based on this concept.. except you seem to have covered most of it already.

Lostintransit
2007-11-20, 06:05 AM
Well I'm glad people seem postive so far about it! I can see what you mean about the low AC being a problem at early levels, so I'm tempted to add a Time Feat at 1st level, allowing the player more choice.

Also the splicing thing may just have been the part i took it from, will change to slicing! Any other thoughts?

levi
2007-11-20, 07:07 AM
I really like the flavor. Unfortuantly, I haven't read enough of the series to have encountered Time Monks yet. The abilities also seem to be quite good, which is ok, because monks are generally considered weak.

I do have a few critiques though. Firstly, is it really justified to have all the abilities be Extraordinary. These guys seem pretty Supernatural to me. Does the source material explicitly state whether Time Monk abilities should count as magical or not? If not, I suggest that to be in line with the rest of DnD, the abilities that are clearly beyond normal martial arts be changed to Supernatural abilities.

Secondly, I think the use of the term Feat for the Time Feat abilities could be a poor choice. They are a selection of class features, not Feats. Standard practice with classes that have a choice of abilites like this is to use some other term (such as "special ability" for the Rouge, or "combat style" for the Ranger) and reserve the use of "Feat" to refer to actual Feats.

Finally, the higher levels of Time Slicing may get overpowered when combined with bonus damage, such as that from Sneak Attack. Bonus damage dice are always a concern when granting a character additional attacks.

Other than that, not much to complain about. Looks like a fun class to play, especially from a flavor perspective.

Lostintransit
2007-11-20, 07:31 AM
I really like the flavor. Unfortuantly, I haven't read enough of the series to have encountered Time Monks yet. The abilities also seem to be quite good, which is ok, because monks are generally considered weak.

I do have a few critiques though. Firstly, is it really justified to have all the abilities be Extraordinary. These guys seem pretty Supernatural to me. Does the source material explicitly state whether Time Monk abilities should count as magical or not? If not, I suggest that to be in line with the rest of DnD, the abilities that are clearly beyond normal martial arts be changed to Supernatural abilities.

Secondly, I think the use of the term Feat for the Time Feat abilities could be a poor choice. They are a selection of class features, not Feats. Standard practice with classes that have a choice of abilites like this is to use some other term (such as "special ability" for the Rouge, or "combat style" for the Ranger) and reserve the use of "Feat" to refer to actual Feats.

Finally, the higher levels of Time Slicing may get overpowered when combined with bonus damage, such as that from Sneak Attack. Bonus damage dice are always a concern when granting a character additional attacks.

Other than that, not much to complain about. Looks like a fun class to play, especially from a flavor perspective.

Well the Time feat name can be changed it was mainly a placeholder till I thought of another name. (Such a Time Training) As for the State of their special abilities being Ex, it is because their powers are not magical their are techniques derived from the teachings of Times lover (I.e an anthropomorphic personification) and as such follow the laws of time. It seems to fit in with the idea of what the monks can do, (I.e magic doesn't stop them using their powers for example)

Well the Djim's were the thing I was most unsure about, due to the high number of attacks at higher levels, but it still seems to be managable (Also as you need to be lawful to take levels in this class, you couldn't stack it with sneak attack as rouges have to be chaotic!)

The most time points I managed to generate at level 20 were just short of 300, which gives you about 60-70 rounds per day of level 7 Djim. (okay that was a character with a wisdom of 39 but hey!)

levi
2007-11-20, 08:09 AM
Well the Time feat name can be changed it was mainly a placeholder till I thought of another name. (Such a Time Training)

It's not a big deal. It's just that consistant use of terminology facilitates clearer rules and ease of gameplay.


As for the State of their special abilities being Ex, it is because their powers are not magical their are techniques derived from the teachings of Times lover (I.e an anthropomorphic personification) and as such follow the laws of time.

If there is a clear rationale for them being Ex in the source material, it would be a good idea to follow that. If it could be debated to go either way, aim for balance by making some abilities Su.


It seems to fit in with the idea of what the monks can do, (I.e magic doesn't stop them using their powers for example)

Actually, approximatly a third of the Monk class features are Supernatural. While many of them are not very powerful, a Monk does drop a bit in powerlevel in an anti-magic feild or other magic negating effect. The Time Monk dosn't have any such drawback.


Well the Djim's were the thing I was most unsure about, due to the high number of attacks at higher levels, but it still seems to be managable

I'm not a balancing guru, so I'm not entirely sure. I guess some playtesting would be the best way to figure it out.


(Also as you need to be lawful to take levels in this class, you couldn't stack it with sneak attack as rouges have to be chaotic!)

While it is a common misperception, the Rouge class has no alignment restrictions. Furthermore, the usually accepted view is that using Sneak Attack is not a Chaotic action, so a Lawful character cas use it without risk of an alignment shift.

There are also other sources of bonus damage that don't have even the appearance of being Chaotic, such as Skirmish, or magical weapons with an elemental property.


The most time points I managed to generate at level 20 were just short of 300, which gives you about 60-70 rounds per day of level 7 Djim. (okay that was a character with a wisdom of 39 but hey!)

When you put it that way, it does seem more reasonable.

Edit: While rereading the rules, I though of a few more things.

You should specify in Time Slicing what sort of action it is. Either a "free action" or a "swift action". That way you clearly define what sort of action it is and can remove the paragraph that explains what sort of action it is. The rules you currently have are the same as a free action, but it isn't because you've written special rules that make it "not an action", but restrict it to being used only on the Time Monk's turn. This serves no real gameplay function and only needlessly complicates matters.

Also, in Time Slicing it doesn't specify what sort of attacks may be made with the Dijim. As this ability is meant to replace the Monk's Flurry of Blows ability, it should proably be limited to Monk Special Weapons and Unarmed Attacks. As it's currently written, the character can use any sort of attack they have, including more powerful non-Monk weapons, and even odd stuff like the Warlock's Eldritch Blast.

Finally, Time Slicing doesn't specify that the Time Monk must make a full attack to gain the extra attacks. Unless this is intentional, a statement to that effect should be added. If it is intentional, I'd urge you to reconsider it, as such an ability seems really unbalanced to me.

DracoDei
2007-11-20, 08:19 AM
Well the Djim's were the thing I was most unsure about, due to the high number of attacks at higher levels, but it still seems to be managable (Also as you need to be lawful to take levels in this class, you couldn't stack it with sneak attack as rouges have to be chaotic!)
Not by the RAW, and not in any game I have every played they don't!

I also agree that the abilities should be Supernatural... not Spell-like, but DEFINITELY Supernatural.

Lostintransit
2007-11-20, 10:58 AM
It's not a big deal. It's just that consistant use of terminology facilitates clearer rules and ease of gameplay.

Sorted that now, have editted the original post to Time training!


If there is a clear rationale for them being Ex in the source material, it would be a good idea to follow that. If it could be debated to go either way, aim for balance by making some abilities Su.

Actually, approximatly a third of the Monk class features are Supernatural. While many of them are not very powerful, a Monk does drop a bit in powerlevel in an anti-magic feild or other magic negating effect. The Time Monk dosn't have any such drawback.

Lol, this was a misunderstanding, when I said a monks abilities, i meant the History Monks abilities not a regular monks abilities. The History monks, as per fluff, are not stopped in a magic field, only a complete shattering of time halts them on that plane!!


I'm not a balancing guru, so I'm not entirely sure. I guess some playtesting would be the best way to figure it out.

Not a problem, you have been very helpful even so!


While it is a common misperception, the Rouge class has no alignment restrictions. Furthermore, the usually accepted view is that using Sneak Attack is not a Chaotic action, so a Lawful character cas use it without risk of an alignment shift.

another misunderstanding I'm affraid! In our world rouges have to be chaotic, but i can see why in regular games it would be a problem.


There are also other sources of bonus damage that don't have even the appearance of being Chaotic, such as Skirmish, or magical weapons with an elemental property.

When you put it that way, it does seem more reasonable.

I completly forgot about magic weapons and elemental damage! I'm thinking of putting in a limit to monk weapons or unarmed only......


Edit: While rereading the rules, I though of a few more things.

You should specify in Time Slicing what sort of action it is. Either a "free action" or a "swift action". That way you clearly define what sort of action it is and can remove the paragraph that explains what sort of action it is. The rules you currently have are the same as a free action, but it isn't because you've written special rules that make it "not an action", but restrict it to being used only on the Time Monk's turn. This serves no real gameplay function and only needlessly complicates matters.

Its the same action as a barbarians rage class feature, hence copying the text!


[Also, in Time Slicing it doesn't specify what sort of attacks may be made with the Dijim. As this ability is meant to replace the Monk's Flurry of Blows ability, it should proably be limited to Monk Special Weapons and Unarmed Attacks. As it's currently written, the character can use any sort of attack they have, including more powerful non-Monk weapons, and even odd stuff like the Warlock's Eldritch Blast.

Finally, Time Slicing doesn't specify that the Time Monk must make a full attack to gain the extra attacks. Unless this is intentional, a statement to that effect should be added. If it is intentional, I'd urge you to reconsider it, as such an ability seems really unbalanced to me.


See above for the first part in response to attacking with weapons, as for the second part if you look at the Djim table it says that the bonus attacks are only gained when making a full attack action, hence you can only gain the attacks whgen full attacking!!

levi
2007-11-20, 11:52 AM
Lol, this was a misunderstanding, when I said a monks abilities, i meant the History Monks abilities not a regular monks abilities. The History monks, as per fluff, are not stopped in a magic field, only a complete shattering of time halts them on that plane!

I see, Extrordinary does seem to be a good fit them.


Not a problem, you have been very helpful even so!

I do what I can.


another misunderstanding I'm affraid! In our world rouges have to be chaotic, but i can see why in regular games it would be a problem.

Well, unless you specify that you're developing the content for a specific set of house rules, the assumption is that you're using baseline d20.


I completly forgot about magic weapons and elemental damage! I'm thinking of putting in a limit to monk weapons or unarmed only...

That would be consistant with the baseline Monk and is proably a good balancing technique.


Its the same action as a barbarians rage class feature, hence copying the text!

Well, so it is. Still, the Barbarian rage rules are silly. It's a free action. There is no game play difference. I don't know why the Barbarian is written that way, but you should just say it's a free action.


See above for the first part in response to attacking with weapons, as for the second part if you look at the Djim table it says that the bonus attacks are only gained when making a full attack action, hence you can only gain the attacks whgen full attacking!

Ah, silly me. I was looking at the rules text and somehow missed the part in the table. I think it might be clearer if you wrote a paragraph explaining what the benifits of a Dijim are, with a bit about referencing the table for the specific numbers. This would also allow you to reduce the vertical height of the table by reducing the length of the extra attacks sections. For instance, something like this:

While in a Dijim state, the Time Monk gains a number of benefits due to his highly accelerated speed. He gains a <type> bonus to armor class, attack and damage rolls, and reflex saves, and his speed increases. Additionally, when making a full attack, he gains a number of additional attacks at his full attack modifier. See the table below for the exact benefits gained at each Dijim level.

This would be more like the way such rules are normally worded. You should also specify a type for the bonuses granted. I put "<type>" in the above example because I'm not familar enough with the source material to make a good judgement as to what type the bonuses should be.

Also note that I specified "full attack modifier" rather than "full base attack bonus". This is because there are a number of effects (such as using Power Attack or Combat Expertise, taking a pentalty to attack due to a negative condition or dual weilding, etc.) that can make one's attack modifier different from one's base attack bonus. Also, your base attack bonus (even when "full") doesn't include your strength, size bonus, etc.

Lostintransit
2007-11-20, 12:56 PM
Well, so it is. Still, the Barbarian rage rules are silly. It's a free action. There is no game play difference. I don't know why the Barbarian is written that way, but you should just say it's a free action.

I thought there were effects that prevented you from taking free actions? Hence why I plan on keeping it as worded, unless labelled as a free action makes it easier....


Ah, silly me. I was looking at the rules text and somehow missed the part in the table. I think it might be clearer if you wrote a paragraph explaining what the benifits of a Dijim are, with a bit about referencing the table for the specific numbers. This would also allow you to reduce the vertical height of the table by reducing the length of the extra attacks sections. For instance, something like this:

While in a Dijim state, the Time Monk gains a number of benefits due to his highly accelerated speed. He gains a <type> bonus to armor class, attack and damage rolls, and reflex saves, and his speed increases. Additionally, when making a full attack, he gains a number of additional attacks at his full attack modifier. See the table below for the exact benefits gained at each Dijim level.

This would be more like the way such rules are normally worded. You should also specify a type for the bonuses granted. I put "<type>" in the above example because I'm not familar enough with the source material to make a good judgement as to what type the bonuses should be.

Also note that I specified "full attack modifier" rather than "full base attack bonus". This is because there are a number of effects (such as using Power Attack or Combat Expertise, taking a pentalty to attack due to a negative condition or dual weilding, etc.) that can make one's attack modifier different from one's base attack bonus. Also, your base attack bonus (even when "full") doesn't include your strength, size bonus, etc.


I like this idea alot, I will add it as text to the Class, the type bonus will have to, of course, be Time. The reason for the full BAB attack thing is due to the Djim being based off of the Haste Spell, actualy thats a thought, I have not put in a clause against haste yet! must do that!

levi
2007-11-20, 05:39 PM
I thought there were effects that prevented you from taking free actions? Hence why I plan on keeping it as worded, unless labelled as a free action makes it easier...

You may have a point. Anyway, it's not a big deal. I though it might simplify and shorten the rules, but there may be some obscure rules interaction that I'm not aware of. Perhaps someone who knows more about this can enlighten us.


I like this idea alot, I will add it as text to the Class, the type bonus will have to, of course, be Time.

Well, there is no "time" bonus type. If you feel that it's really necessary, go ahead and use it, but be aware that inventing bonus types is usually frowned apon. You'd be just as well to use an untyped bonus. Since nothing else in the game would grant a time bonus, the end effect, stacking of the bonuses, would be the same.

As for haste, the Attack bonus is unnamed, the AC bonus is a dodge bonus, and the speed increase is an enhancement bonus. Unnamed bonuses always stack, dodge bonuses stack, so the only one that might not stack would be the speed bonus. Although, enhancement bonuses to movement are not that common, so stacking or not may never come up.

Given that most of the effects of haste are stacking bonuses, using untyped bonuses may work just as well as anything else. However, dodge bonuses to AC are negated when flat-footed or otherwise denied your Dex bonus to AC, so you may want to consider a dodge bonus for the AC and Ref buffs. This makes sense for both balance and flavor reasons.


The reason for the full BAB attack thing is due to the Djim being based off of the Haste Spell, actualy thats a thought, I have not put in a clause against haste yet! must do that!

Well, in the haste spell, after the part about full BAB, it says "...plus any modifiers...", which actually covers quite a lot.

As for not allowing stacking with haste, see the haste spell for a nice block of rules-ese that covers this and other nitty gritty details of extra attacks. It's the bit in parenthesis at the end of the second paragraph. Something similar should work well.

You may also want to consider the interaction with the slow spell.

Lostintransit
2007-11-21, 11:17 AM
Good idea about the slow spell, will add that in as well.

Will also change time bonus to un-named bonus.

So any more thoughts?

Alex12
2007-11-21, 11:28 AM
Ah, what about Time Stitching? Perhaps as a high-level skill that lets them spend Time Points to reroll a roll they just made?

I'd also suggest some sort of immunity to time-based spells (So something like Temporal Stasis would not affect them unless they wanted it to)

TheLogman
2007-11-21, 11:46 AM
I'd rule that Deja-Fu defied a Target both Dodge and Dex bonuses, since you are attacking them without them seeing either your movements or blows.

Very nice class, it seems perfectly in line with Prachet's novels, and it seems to be excellent crunch-wise as well.

Lostintransit
2007-11-21, 06:33 PM
I'd rule that Deja-Fu defied a Target both Dodge and Dex bonuses, since you are attacking them without them seeing either your movements or blows.

Very nice class, it seems perfectly in line with Prachet's novels, and it seems to be excellent crunch-wise as well.

Well firstly I'm glad you liked the class! I wasn't sure if it was to over powered but it seems to be going down well!

As for Deja-fu, I didn't want it to be to powerful, because as it stands, you can make around 10 attacks at any target with 240Ft, or a multitude of targets at 240Ft. However I do think that denying dex and dodge is characterful as the blows do come from the past.

EDIT: Qoute from Alex12; Ah, what about Time Stitching? Perhaps as a high-level skill that lets them spend Time Points to reroll a roll they just made?

I'd also suggest some sort of immunity to time-based spells (So something like Temporal Stasis would not affect them unless they wanted it to)

Well I like the idea of a re-roll skill, maybe it would work as a Time Training. As for immunity to Time spells, that seems a very good idea, Itr would free up some text in the Time Slicing section..

Any other Thoughts?

Nebo_
2007-11-21, 07:34 PM
Well I like the idea of a re-roll skill, maybe it would work as a Time Training. As for immunity to Time spells, that seems a very good idea, Itr would free up some text in the Time Slicing section..

Logsang had immunity to timestop, but that didn't really have anything to do with his training. But it would still be great to see - being in a wizard's timestop with him.

Lostintransit
2007-11-21, 07:48 PM
Logsang had immunity to timestop, but that didn't really have anything to do with his training. But it would still be great to see - being in a wizard's timestop with him.

thats exactly what I was thinking, the wizard casts time stop to get away, when suddenly the monk starts attacking him! I will add some more text as a Time Training as follows:

(Fancy name here): The History monk has become adept at reacting to abnormal time situtions, allowing him to react almost instantly to anyone manipulating time. The history monk is immune to all effects from time based spells and acts normally during any such situtions. The history Monk generates two less time points from his total maximum allowed.

Thoughts?

jindra34
2007-11-21, 07:55 PM
thats exactly what I was thinking, the wizard casts time stop to get away, when suddenly the monk starts attacking him! I will add some more text as a Time Training as follows:

(Fancy name here): The History monk has become adept at reacting to abnormal time situtions, allowing him to react almost instantly to anyone manipulating time. The history monk is immune to all effects from time based spells and acts normally during any such situtions. The history Monk generates two less time points from his total maximum allowed.

Thoughts?

Name= Temporal adaptability. and yes it looks great.

Lostintransit
2007-11-21, 08:04 PM
Name= Temporal adaptability. and yes it looks great.

Glad! however is the wording good or not? does it conform to Wotc style for DnD (i.e. does it makes sense in rule terms, would someone look at that and go huh??)

EDIT: have named it after one of the martial arts in the book: Upsidazi

DracoDei
2007-11-21, 08:29 PM
Eh... Lobsang had that ability because of who he was born as and NO other reason... if you want to include it in the class that is fine... but I would really consider NOT naming it after one of the martial arts listed in the book.

Lostintransit
2007-11-21, 08:35 PM
Eh... Lobsang had that ability because of who he was born as and NO other reason... if you want to include it in the class that is fine... but I would really consider NOT naming it after one of the martial arts listed in the book.

Huh, I'm a bit confused... I thought the point of the ability was that the monk could keep up with whatever fancy time spell was thrown around, hence the immunity, didn't think it was just a pure lobsang power.

Aslo as the class is designed to be the History monks why is naming it after a named art bad? Is it to do with the type of power, or due to some other reason??

Nebo_
2007-11-21, 09:23 PM
Because having your own time when there is no other time isn't something that the time monks can do.

Lobsang could only do it because he is the son of Time.

Total_Viking_Power
2007-11-21, 09:26 PM
Yay! Great idea :smallbiggrin: More Pratchett to the People!!!

Do you think, for the sake of good cheer, that you could throw a +4 bonus to craft(bonzai mountains) in the mix?

I cannot comment on the mechanics, but flavorwize, speaking as a zealous Discworld fan, this is spot on. Good work!

tyckspoon
2007-11-21, 09:39 PM
Because having your own time when there is no other time isn't something that the time monks can do.

Lobsang could only do it because he is the son of Time.

Timestop, and most other time-related spells, aren't the same thing as no time (somebody casting Temporal Stasis on the monk might qualify.) A Wizard using Timestop is using his magic to speed himself up to the point where outside observers appear stopped. That's exactly what a History Monk spends all his time learning to do non-magically. If he can slice well enough, he should be able to keep up with and interact with a timestopped wizard.

DracoDei
2007-11-21, 09:53 PM
Eh, true. One is a limited effect, one is a planet wide (and only for complex reasons NOT plane wide) disaster brought on by an artifact.

WrstDmEvr
2007-11-21, 10:17 PM
Great idea. I can just imagine when they go epic...

Total_Viking_Power
2007-11-21, 10:19 PM
Possibly also the salient abilities of avatars and gods could factor in here. I imagine Time (Lobsang Ludd, even) might interfere, and the DM could certainly have other forces in the multiverse have a say about the time flow on the Discworld. A sorcerer, and just about any wizard when a sorcerer exists, could probably pull something freaky off... Covering bases, here. If you think these things are viable concerns.

TheLogman
2007-11-21, 11:28 PM
Imagine the adventure hook for these guys.

Jerry, as you are setting up the delayed blast fireballs for your helpless enemies frozen in time, you see something moving out of the corner of your eye. You look again, it seems to be a smiling old man, but instead of being frozen like the rest, he is in normal time with you. Suddenly, 3 more men appear behind him, all dressed as monks. They stand there, smiling, and you feel thousands of punches buffeting you. You can't stop them, and you don't know where they come from. Suddenly, the punches stop, and the men fade, leaving only a note and a miniature mountain. The note reads: "Excuse me, I suggest that you stop messing with Time, as it makes things messy with us. This was a warning, next time, we will eliminate you. P.S. We left you a Bonsai Mountain, we hope that you enjoy it, and keep it as a reminder of us.

Lostintransit
2007-11-22, 08:39 AM
Imagine the adventure hook for these guys.

Jerry, as you are setting up the delayed blast fireballs for your helpless enemies frozen in time, you see something moving out of the corner of your eye. You look again, it seems to be a smiling old man, but instead of being frozen like the rest, he is in normal time with you. Suddenly, 3 more men appear behind him, all dressed as monks. They stand there, smiling, and you feel thousands of punches buffeting you. You can't stop them, and you don't know where they come from. Suddenly, the punches stop, and the men fade, leaving only a note and a miniature mountain. The note reads: "Excuse me, I suggest that you stop messing with Time, as it makes things messy with us. This was a warning, next time, we will eliminate you. P.S. We left you a Bonsai Mountain, we hope that you enjoy it, and keep it as a reminder of us.

I just couldn't stop laughing when I read this! It's so hilarious! But surprisingly enough, a correct representation of what I thought this class could do!

Also as tyckspoon said, the effect of time stop is to speed up the character making everyone else appear stopped, so acting during a time stop is in a nutshell what the History Monk's do!

Just for Total_Viking_Power I'm going to throw in the craft(Bonzai Mountains) skill....

I'm very glad people are enjoying the flavour a style of the class, but has anyone seen any horrid rules mistakes or overpowered/underpowered rules?

EDIT: Just had a thought as i was trying to create an actual playable History Monk, the Benefits gained from the Djim doesn't seemed to last long enough, I'm thinking it could do with a boost. I was going to change it so that a Djim lasted for as many rounds as Time points it cost to activate. The only downside to this is that you get the full benefits of the higher cost Djim's for longer and they are better... which is just a tad unbalanced! Hmm this needs some thinking....

Heliomance
2007-11-22, 01:37 PM
This is some serious awesome right here. I'm printing the build out and making puppy-dog eyes at my GM.

Lostintransit
2007-11-22, 01:44 PM
This is some serious awesome right here. I'm printing the build out and making puppy-dog eyes at my GM.

Thats great news! Well one of the reasons for making this class was to use it so playtesting would be good... I'm also planning on using it during our weekly adventure so it will be interesting to see how it works!

Small thing though, does it seem underpowered at low levels vs high powered at high levels? I'm thinking its heading that way, i made a level 5 character and he had around 23 Time points per day, so thats 10 rounds of 2nd Djim or 23 of 1st. I should probaly do some sample NPC's to see if the match up to the regular classes. (example fighter, barbarian, monk, ranger etc.)

Lostintransit
2007-11-23, 02:02 PM
Well I've added in a new ability called Wisdom ofHistory as it should slowly increase the Monks time point generation.

Now Here are some NPC style stats for History Monk's.
The following Blocks are done with the Elite Array.

Juzo Sato
Male Medium Human (History Monk 5)
HD 5D8+5 (27 HP)
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares); Time slicing (1st Djim) 60 ft. (12 squares); Time Slicing (2nd Djim) 90 ft. (18 squares)
Init: +6 (+2 Dex & +4 Feat)
AC 15/16/17; touch 15/16/17; flat-footed 13 (+2 Dex & +3 Wisdom Mod) (None, 1st & 2nd Djim respectively)
BAB +3; Grp +7
Attack Unarmed Attack +3 (1D8, 20/x2) or Time Slicing Unarmed Attack (1st Djim) +4 (1D8, 20/x2 +1) or Time Slicing Unarmed Attack (2nd Djim) +5 (1D8, 20/x2 +2)
Full-Attack Unarmed Attack +3 (1D8, 20/x2) or Time Slicing Unarmed Attack (1st Djim) +4/+4 (1D8, 20/x2 +1) or Time Slicing Unarmed Attack (2nd Djim) +5/+5/+5 (1D8, 20/x2 +2)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Okidoki
Special Qualities Time Slicing (1st & 2nd Djim), Evasion, Time Focus, Time Training (Stance of The Monkey & Stance of the Coyote), Wisdom of History & Shiitake. Generates 13 Time Points every day and can save up to 16 points that remain unspent.
Saves Fort +4 Ref +7/+8/+9 Will +7 (None, 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th Djim respectively)
Abilities Str 10(+0), Dex 14(+2), Con 13(+1), Int 12(+1), Wis 16(+3), Cha 9(-1)
Skills Concentration +9, Diplomacy +8, Hide +10, Knowledge (History) +9, Move Silently +10, Tumble +10
Feats Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Combat Reflexes
Environment Anywhere Time is manipulated
Organization History Monk's (2+ History Monks)
Challenge Rating 5
Treasure Simple monks Robe, worth 1sp
Alignment Lawful Neutral
Advancement by Class
Level Adjustment -



Juzo Sato
Male Medium Human (History Monk 10)
HD 10D8+10 (55 HP)
Speed 30 ft. (6 squares); Time slicing (1st Djim) 60 ft. (12 squares); Time Slicing (2nd Djim) 90 ft. (18 squares); Time slicing (3rd Djim) 120 ft. (24 squares); Time slicing (4th Djim) 150 ft. (30 squares);
Init: +6 (+2 Dex & +4 Feat) or +16 (+2 Dex, +4 Feat & spend 1 time point)
AC 18/19/20/21/22; touch 18/19/20/21/22; flat-footed 18/19/20/21/22 (+2 Dex, +5 Wisdom Mod & +1 Ring) (None, 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th Djim respectively)
BAB +7/+2; Grp +11
Attack Unarmed Attack +10 (1D10, 20/x2) or Time Slicing Unarmed Attack (1st Djim) +11 (1D10, 20/x2 +1) or Time Slicing Unarmed Attack (2nd Djim) +12 (1D10, 20/x2 +2) or Time Slicing Unarmed Attack (3rd Djim) +13 (1D10, 20/x2 +3) or Time Slicing Unarmed Attack (4th Djim) +14 (1D10, 20/x2 +4)
Full-Attack Unarmed Attack +10/+5 (1D10, 20/x2) or Time Slicing Unarmed Attack (1st Djim) +11/+11/+6 (1D10, 20/x2 +1) or Time Slicing Unarmed Attack (2nd Djim) +12/+12/+12/+7 (1D10, 20/x2 +2) or Time Slicing Unarmed Attack (3rd Djim) +13/+13/+13/+13/+8 (1D10, 20/x2 +3) or Time Slicing Unarmed Attack (4th Djim) +14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9 (1D10, 20/x2 +4)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks Okidoki &Chang-fu (ignores DR and hardness.)
Special Qualities Time Slicing (1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th Djim), Evasion, Time Focus, Time Training (Stance of The Monkey, Stance of the Coyote & Stance of Surprise), Wisdom of History, Uncanny Dodge & Shiitake. Generates 48 Time Points every day and can save up to 20 points that remain unspent.
Saves Fort +8 Ref +12/+13/+14/+15/+16 Will +12 (None, 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th Djim respectively)
Abilities Str 10(+0), Dex 14(+2), Con 13(+1), Int 12(+1), Wis 20(+5), Cha 10(-)
Skills Concentration +9, Diplomacy +9, Hide +15, Knowledge (History) +14, Knowledge (Time) +10, Move Silently +15, Tumble +15
Feats Improved Initiative, Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finess, Weapon Focus (Unarmed)
Environment Anywhere Time is manipulated
Organization History Monk's (2+ History Monks)
Challenge Rating 10
Treasure Simple monks Robe, worth 1sp, Amulet of Wisdom +4 & Ring of Protection +1.
Alignment Lawful Neutral
Advancement by Class
Level Adjustment -

Heliomance
2007-11-25, 04:35 AM
...yeah. I showed this to my DM, and asked him if I could play the class. He read it, and his reaction was "Not a chance in hell. This class is so broken it could beat Pun-Pun."
Running a few hypotheticals, he and a friend estimated that a History Monk 6/Some class from Complete Adventurer 1 could take down an 18th level Druid. Druids are generally considered overpowered.

It's not all bad news though - the friend has taken on the challenge of balancing it. It does involve reworking it as a 10-level prestige class, but I will keep you posted on updates as they occur. Next update likely on Wednesday.

Lostintransit
2007-11-25, 08:07 AM
...yeah. I showed this to my DM, and asked him if I could play the class. He read it, and his reaction was "Not a chance in hell. This class is so broken it could beat Pun-Pun."
Running a few hypotheticals, he and a friend estimated that a History Monk 6/Some class from Complete Adventurer 1 could take down an 18th level Druid. Druids are generally considered overpowered.

It's not all bad news though - the friend has taken on the challenge of balancing it. It does involve reworking it as a 10-level prestige class, but I will keep you posted on updates as they occur. Next update likely on Wednesday.

Well i'd like to say your GM really didn't read it properly seeing as he thought it could beat pun pun(ie the one stupidist thing in the game!) Also as a comparision was it a 18th level character? was it just a level 7 character or what? Also remaind him that its supposed to be used as a complete class ie 1 to 20 not taken with other levels. yes a 3rd djim is good, but check out the 10th level NPC above, to be honest he ain't that scary for a CR 10 creature... Also did you print out the newer version? the one where I added the missed out clause regarding Time points? (I hadn't copied over the bit that says you lose unspent time points at the end of the day.) that makes a big difference. Also did he optimize the character? I'd hoped people would avoid the whole mixing with other classess as its uncharacterful, apart from maybe 1 or 2 levels in a class like rouge or ranger. If people are going to mix then I should really put in a can't change 'ever' clause (Lobsang don't count as he was, well taking on a more important aspect of the same job!)

I have an idea what type of thing he was planning on mixing it with, the Fighter 'fixing' classes that do +Xd6 extra damage every attack etc.

Also I am actually using one during a game today and both my DM and the group seem to think its fine, but i suppose everyone is different!:smallbiggrin:

Thanks for the heads up though! Will add in the clause that stops people multiclassing into or out of the class, will make it more stand alone then.

Ta!

EDIT: Have added clause that stops people trying to be stupid crazy, you can now only take levels in History Monk, or not at all - no multiclassing cheating with complete warrior now! (I was always just trying to see if the class worked on its own accord.)

Heliomance
2007-11-25, 10:30 AM
No, he did read it properly. It was a 20th level character that he reckoned could beat Pun-Pun though. And he was probably exagerating a little.
The one that could beat the Druid was a 7th level character. But saying "It's not intended to be balanced if you take other classes" doesn't work - people will multiclass.
Losing unspent time points is good, but the ability that means you can carry over your wisdom score of unspent time points is not. Basically, you get so many time points a day at higher levels that they might as well not exist.

The class he was planning to mixx it with was one which he couldn't remember the name of, but that had an ability which doubled the number of attacks you could make in one round. Combine that with 3rd level Djim, and it gets silly.
The other thing that gets silly is the "sleep for vastly reduced amounts of time" one. That can combine with
- being an elf
- having a Ring of Sustenance
- And a couple of other things, to potentially give the situation "I lean against a wall for a minute and a half. I just got all the benefits of a good night's sleep." It also doen't make sense, as Lu-Tze specifically says you cannot slice whilst asleep.

As I say, one of the DM's friends has decided to attempt to balance the class, by turning it into a prestige class. This actually makes sense flavour-wise - for one thing, acolytes spend a long, long time learning before they start to get the flash time abilities. For another, the monks tend to go out into the world and recruit those who show some promise - ie, those who already have class levels.

I'm not very experienced at homebrew, but I would say restricting multiclass is probably an action that is undesirable in almost all cases. Fluff-wise, how are you going to stop someone learning a level in fighter from the party tank? Sure, you can say if they do, they can't learn any more history monk, but they've already got levels. Also, when Lobsang joined, he kept all his Thieves Guild abilities.

Kami2awa
2007-11-26, 05:45 PM
In the books, the ranks of the History Monks go up to at least 10th Djim. All we know of 10th Djim powers are that they slice time incredibly well and train in a dojo covered in sharp iron spikes on the inside.

Kyace
2007-11-27, 05:38 AM
I think most of your trouble with balance is coming from this table:

{table=head]Djim Level|Attack and Damge Bonus|AC Bonus|Ref Save Bonus|Movement Bonus|Additional Attacks

1st|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+30Ft|
+1

2nd|
+2|
+2|
+2|
+60Ft|
+2

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+3|
+90Ft|
+3

4th|
+4|
+4|
+4|
+120Ft|
+4

5th|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+150Ft|
+5

6th|
+6|
+6|
+6|
+180Ft|
+6

7th|
+7|
+7|
+7|
+210Ft|
+7[/table]

The attack bonus, the AC bonus, the reflex bonus and to a large degree, the speed bonus are all mostly ok. Being able to get 7 extra attacks, at full BAB at no less, is over powered for most players. You've made it a haste spell that stacks without asking yourself why Haste doesn't stack (or scale). 7 attacks plus the 3 for normal BAB is just insane. I would suggest making the player 1) full attack, 2) give up the Djim bonus to attack and 3) use unarmed attacks (maybe monk weapons too) to get 1 extra attack at first Djim, 2 extra attacks at third Djim, 3 extra attacks at fifth Djim and 4 extra at seventh.

Another nit pick, do to the sheer number of attacks this class gets, they don't need the improved unarmed damage that monks get.

The normal D&D party shouldn't be spending more than 10 rounds a day in combat (on average), as many time points as they get, they can spend them like candy for maximum Djim and still have plenty.

I'd give them more to spend it on and make the Time 'Feats' use more.

Some examples I would suggest:

Stance of the Coyote (Ex): The History monk never suffers any effects from falling and will always land on their feet after falling. Make them spend 1 time point per 10 feet fallen to cancel the damage.

Stance of the Moon (Ex): The History monk needs to only sleep for one Hour to gain the benefits of a full nights sleep, or three hours to gain the benefits of a Full days rest. Its been pointed out that this goes against what is said in the book.

Closing of the Flower (Ex): The History Monk may erase his presence from the world, people will forget him, pictures of him will disappear and his name will vanish from records. If the history monk spends 24 hours in meditation doing nothing else, he may upon completion of his meditation, have all existence of him removed. The Monk may choose up to one item or person per History monk level to remain unaffected by this ability. Gods or other such powerful creatures and any other History Monks remain unaffected by this ability. Bookwise, closing of the flower removes all previous knowledge of the person who became a monk, basically taking "starting anew" to a literal level. And it still wasn't perfect: Nanny Ogg certainly seemed to remember delivering him, for example.

Stance of the Monkey (Ex): The History Monk becomes adept at using even the smallest Slice to his advantage, protecting him from danger. When unarmoured and unencumbered, the History Monk adds his Wisdom modifier (if any) to his AC. This Bonus applies even against Touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. He loses this bonus when he is immobilized or helpless, when he wears any armour, when he carries a shield, or when he carries a medium or heavy load. The History Monk also generates two less time points from his total maximum allowed.Seems ok, but I'd spell out that this doesn't stack with other abilities to add Wisdom to AC.

Tung-pi (Ex): The History monk is immune to all forms of environmental damage. The History Monk also generates one less time point from his total maximum allowed.Environmental damage is vague, I'd suggest merely saying it works like the spell Endure Elements.

Stance of the Mountain (Ex): The History Monk can draw strength from Time itself, mending his wounds. A History Monk can heal a number of hit points of damage equal to twice his current History Monk level each day, and he may spread this healing out among several uses.Since you used the formula for Lay on Hands for Time Points, I'd make healing 1 HP cost 1 Time Point.

Stance of Surprise (Ex): Whenever the History Monk is called upon to make an Initiative Check, he may spend one time point to get a bonus to the roll equal to his History Monk level.Ok, make it cost a number of Time Points up to their History Monk level to grant a bonus to the Initiative Check equal to the number of Time Points spent. Otherwise, this is too much 'something for nothing'.

Upsidazi (Ex): The History Monk has become adept at reacting to abnormal time situtions, allowing him to react almost instantly to anyone manipulating time. The History Monk is immune to all effects from time based spells and acts normally during any such situtions. The History Monk generates two less time points from his total maximum allowed. For example, what happens if the History Monk enters a plane either a temporal quality unlike normal? Are they immune? Affected? What does this mean in game turns?

Lostintransit
2007-11-27, 06:45 AM
No, he did read it properly. It was a 20th level character that he reckoned could beat Pun-Pun though. And he was probably exagerating a little.
The one that could beat the Druid was a 7th level character. But saying "It's not intended to be balanced if you take other classes" doesn't work - people will multiclass.
Losing unspent time points is good, but the ability that means you can carry over your wisdom score of unspent time points is not. Basically, you get so many time points a day at higher levels that they might as well not exist.

The class he was planning to mixx it with was one which he couldn't remember the name of, but that had an ability which doubled the number of attacks you could make in one round. Combine that with 3rd level Djim, and it gets silly.
The other thing that gets silly is the "sleep for vastly reduced amounts of time" one. That can combine with
- being an elf
- having a Ring of Sustenance
- And a couple of other things, to potentially give the situation "I lean against a wall for a minute and a half. I just got all the benefits of a good night's sleep." It also doen't make sense, as Lu-Tze specifically says you cannot slice whilst asleep.

As I say, one of the DM's friends has decided to attempt to balance the class, by turning it into a prestige class. This actually makes sense flavour-wise - for one thing, acolytes spend a long, long time learning before they start to get the flash time abilities. For another, the monks tend to go out into the world and recruit those who show some promise - ie, those who already have class levels.

I'm not very experienced at homebrew, but I would say restricting multiclass is probably an action that is undesirable in almost all cases. Fluff-wise, how are you going to stop someone learning a level in fighter from the party tank? Sure, you can say if they do, they can't learn any more history monk, but they've already got levels. Also, when Lobsang joined, he kept all his Thieves Guild abilities.


Right lots of things to respond to! First off I have just played with this class during a regular Dnd setting at level 13 for a whole 8 hours (ok I was pure history monk) but it seemed fine, the gaming group enjoyed the characterfulness of the class and fun was had by all!:smallsmile:

Now in Kyace post he says higher level people 'only' fight for 10 rounds per day, what nonsense! We easily fought for a combined total of 100 rounds, not non stop I'll grant you but spaced throughout the day, before even considering rest! A clever use of resources allows us to get through the dungeons quicker.

Now onto the meat of the responses!
1) The quible regarding The stance of the moon, as worded it says you rest for only 1 hour, so if your an elf you would only need to rest for 1 hr if you had a ring of sustence its wasted because you only need to rest for 1 Hr etc. However that was the 1 thing that as a group we changed, we changed it to a regular 4 hrs (like an elf). Also it isn't time slicing per say, the time training is supposed to be little 'extras' that the monk has learnt during his training, so in this case it represents his ability to keep his body re-charged and functioning without suffering for 1/2 the usual time.

I am tempted to remove it, but I'm leaving it in for now, get a few more games and see if it becomes a problem.

2) a level 7 character, are you mad? To start with the amount of wealth a level 5 has is tiny compared to an 18th, the different power level in items dooms the monk! Also as he would only have 7HD he could be killed by save or die spells easily! Did he read the bit where the attacks have to be unarmed or with specific weapons? Did he read that if you are armoured in any way you can't time slice and can't use any time training? To gain the extra attacks you have to use a full attack action! you couldn't get close enough to the druid!! The monks AC would be so low the druid could hit it with her eyes closed! I'm not sure what class he was looking at to gain double attacks, but that sounds far more crazy.... Their is sooo many different regulations with time slicing....

3) limiting the class was the easy cop out option I know, but it solved a number of issues while I thought of ways to fix them!:smallsmile: I will take away that regulation as it is a bit crazy..

4)Kyace, did you read time slicing carefully? It says in their that you only get the bonus attacks while full attacking! using unarmed or monk weapons! that was one of the early fixes! It has always been intended that way and was pointed out on the first page!( I had not added the clause to start with!)

5) the Time training fixes.... Well they certainly are interesting, but as I pointed out, forcing a player to spend time points on every single thing is quite harsh, as a regular monk gets a number of these special abilities for free. I am tempted however to add in some of them, like the falling one but change it to 20ft per time point.

6)The stance of the monkey is basically the monks wisdom to AC clause. so yeah it need a doesn't stack with other abilities with the same text.

Thank you all for the ideas, I will update the class again and it's coming along nicely!


(Wow thats alot of exclamation marks!):smalleek:

EDIT: Nanny Ogg wasn't effected due to her being a powerful creature, as listed under the stance of the coyote ability.!

Alex12
2007-11-27, 07:55 AM
5) the Time training fixes.... Well they certainly are interesting, but as I pointed out, forcing a player to spend time points on every single thing is quite harsh, as a regular monk gets a number of these special abilities for free. I am tempted however to add in some of them, like the falling one but change it to 20ft per time point.

(Wow thats alot of exclamation marks!):smalleek:


For the falling thing, perhaps it should be something like a constant-effect catfall (psionic power, you always land on your feet and take damage as if the fall were 10 feet shorter than it actually is) and you can spend Time Points as if they were power points to lessen falls even more

Also, "Multiple exclamation marks are a sure sign of a diseased mind."-Terry Pratchett.

Kyace
2007-11-27, 08:06 AM
At level 6, a history monk's full attack looks like this +7/+7/+7 (without str or dex bonus). Lets give them a +1 flaming for the low price of 8302 gp. As these are at full BAB (better than a fighter's bab, actually), they are likely to hit for 6d6+3 (+ str bonus) damage, which averages out to 24 damage.

A level 6 monk, on the other hand, flurries for +3/+3 (without str or dex bonus) and only deals 4d6+2 with the same weapon.

So not only does the history monk deal +50% more damage assuming all attacks hit, attacks have a +20% better chance to hit than a normal monk. And it only gets worse as the history monk levels.

At level 20, a history monk full attacks for +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10 (plus str or dex). A level 20 monk attacks for +15/+15/+15/+10/+5. Heck, a level 14 history monk full attacks for +15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+10. Congrats, your level 14 history monk is empirically better, without any cheesy items, levels in another other classes, special feats, races or weapons than a monk 6 levels higher. As a bonus, the history monk's speed, reflex, AC and initiative modifier are all much better than a monk of equal level. You take a single level of rogue and all of your 10 attacks at level 20 deal +1d6 more damage.

Its not the weapons that are the problem, its the fact that you give them 10 attacks compared to a normal character's 4. A balanced class should be roughly as good as a normal class in normal situations. 100 rounds of combat a game day is not a normal situation: d&d was designed for roughly 4 encounters a day. If you spend more than 20 rounds a day in active combat, you will be hit. Monsters roll natural 20's too. 100 rounds of fair combat requires all characters to be hit at least 5 times, and likely 50 times a day. This is not what classes are meant to handle. The History Monk class, as it reads now, is by no sense of the term 'balanced' for normal D&D, I'm sorry. Its a fun class with good background, but it could use some improvement.

PS: I'm not saying if you're playing 100 rounds of combat a day, its wrong. If you are having fun, then that is all that really matters. However, you are not playing a RAW version of D&D, you are using house rules to make the game work for you. What is balanced for you in your house ruled system may not be balanced for others using RAW.

Heliomance
2007-11-27, 08:19 AM
To be fair, I believe the "can take out an 18th level druid" was with a surprise round or having won initiative - in other words, they can take the druid in one round, but if the druid hits first they are somewhat screwed.

Regarding sleeping, having read the entriy for ring of sustenance, I'm inclined to agree that they don't stack. My GM thought they did though, I don't know. However, there is nothing about needing less sleep in the books. They had to hitch a ride with a yeti because they couldn't waste the time sleeping, remember?

With the number of time points a medium-high level monk gets, forcing them to spend them on everything isn't harsh at all. Also, I would venture to suggest that Nanny Ogg, while powerful in her own way, is nowhere near as powerful as a 20th level character, and certainly not as powerful as a god.

Lostintransit
2007-11-27, 09:04 AM
At level 6, a history monk's full attack looks like this +7/+7/+7 (without str or dex bonus). Lets give them a +1 flaming for the low price of 8302 gp. As these are at full BAB (better than a fighter's bab, actually), they are likely to hit for 6d6+3 (+ str bonus) damage, which averages out to 24 damage.

A level 6 monk, on the other hand, flurries for +3/+3 (without str or dex bonus) and only deals 4d6+2 with the same weapon.

So not only does the history monk deal +50% more damage assuming all attacks hit, attacks have a +20% better chance to hit than a normal monk. And it only gets worse as the history monk levels.

At level 20, a history monk full attacks for +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10 (plus str or dex). A level 20 monk attacks for +15/+15/+15/+10/+5. Heck, a level 14 history monk full attacks for +15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+15/+10. Congrats, your level 14 history monk is empirically better, without any cheesy items, levels in another other classes, special feats, races or weapons than a monk 6 levels higher. As a bonus, the history monk's speed, reflex, AC and initiative modifier are all much better than a monk of equal level. You take a single level of rogue and all of your 10 attacks at level 20 deal +1d6 more damage.

Its not the weapons that are the problem, its the fact that you give them 10 attacks compared to a normal character's 4. A balanced class should be roughly as good as a normal class in normal situations. 100 rounds of combat a game day is not a normal situation: d&d was designed for roughly 4 encounters a day. If you spend more than 20 rounds a day in active combat, you will be hit. Monsters roll natural 20's too. 100 rounds of fair combat requires all characters to be hit at least 5 times, and likely 50 times a day. This is not what classes are meant to handle. The History Monk class, as it reads now, is by no sense of the term 'balanced' for normal D&D, I'm sorry. Its a fun class with good background, but it could use some improvement.

PS: I'm not saying if you're playing 100 rounds of combat a day, its wrong. If you are having fun, then that is all that really matters. However, you are not playing a RAW version of D&D, you are using house rules to make the game work for you. What is balanced for you in your house ruled system may not be balanced for others using RAW.

You do realise you can't actually generate a character with a +1 flaming weapon at 6th level right? you would have to get that through loot etc.

What do you mean a charcter isn't supposed to spend more than 20 rounds in combat are you mad? Are charcter get hit frequentley during a combat encounter we just have a sensible healing plan thats all.

Also we are playing RAW dnd, we use the PHB, monster manual and DMG and rarely anything else. I seriously can't see how you expect to... oh wait just realised... you mean you don't play a game of story you play a game of numbers i.e. the DMG say 4 encounters a day now stop your PC's are invincible until tomoorow! where as we play as if its real! you don't get to say to the monster go away i've had my 4 fights today, if you invade a lair and its got 60 rooms in it and you can't clear 4 then have the rest ignore you coz you had 4 fights that ain't realistic at all. That explains your crazy numbers, no one I know round here I.e. 20+ people play it like that we all play it real.

How the hell did you get 6d6? a level 6 monk deals 1D8, or 1D6 with a weapon. + an extra 1D6 if it has flaming or such. The best I could do is as follows:

Level 6 monk no level adjustment.
BAB: +4
weapon focus +1
Str bonus +5 (high roll + race)
Djim bonus +3

equals +13/+13/+13/+13 (1D8+8 20/x2) on a full attack.

a more realistic str of say +2 or +3 lowers that. you can only do it for what 6-10 rounds per day? you can't wear armour so you AC sucks, and you must stand next to your target to get the full attack off.

a 6th level fighter no level adjustment
BAB +6/+1
weapon focus +1
weapon spec +2 Dam
Str bonus +5 (high roll + race)
Magic weapon +1

equals +13/+8 (2D6+10 19-20/x2) on full attack

can wear full plate can have higher AC etc, can attack like this All day.

The way we saw it was more attacks but less often.

Hmm still needs thinking about, i may have to tone the number of attacks down.

Kyace
2007-11-27, 09:39 AM
You do realise you can't actually generate a character with a +1 flaming weapon at 6th level right? you would have to get that through loot etc. The Wealth by Level for a LVL 6 character is 13,000 gp. A +1 flaming weapon costs 8302 gp. By RAW, you can afford such a sword.

What do you mean a charcter isn't supposed to spend more than 20 rounds in combat are you mad? *sighs* I said that spending 100 rounds in combat a day was not what D&D was balanced for. To show one of the reasons why, I showed that you'd risk several critical a day if you did so. Yes, I know you have healing. Healing is a daily resource. CR is roughly balanced so that you use 1/4 of your daily resources per challenging fight.

Skipping over stuff were I was insulted and you confused the meaning of CORE with RAW.

How the hell did you get 6d6? a level 6 monk deals 1D8, or 1D6 with a weapon. + an extra 1D6 if it has flaming or such. The weapon does 1d6 damage. Flaming adds +1d6 damage for a totaly 2d6 per hit. If you have three extra attacks at full BAB, you deal roughly four times as much damage when you full attack. My mistake, I underestimated the ammount of damage you could deal with a history monk.
1d6+1d6 = 2d6
2d6 * 4 attacks = 8d6 per round at full BAB. This is roughly the same- you know what, never mind.

I see my advice isn't wanted here, silly me for trying to use mere numbers to see if the class was balanced.

Lostintransit
2007-11-27, 12:17 PM
I see my advice isn't wanted here, silly me for trying to use mere numbers to see if the class was balanced.

I'm quite confused?:smalleek: I wasn't insulting you... I was trying to understand the style of play you meant....

I understand that spending time in combat increases the chance of being criticalled, but even when you're in a combat sitution (I.e. when the DM calls for initiative) you are not always fighting a specific creature, guards maybe coming round the corner in 2 rounds etc. Hence spending around 100 rounds... You spend like 30-50 of those rounds actually 'attacking' i.e. rolling to hit, the other could involve tactical movement etc.

I do also know the difference between RAW and CORE one is rules as written the other is using the original 3 books (PHB, DMG & MM) The DMG actually states that a 'status quo encounter' is one where the PC's have to adapt to the challenge not the other way around, (They give an example of bugbears living in some hills, whatever level the PC's are the bugbears are still the same) These are the kind of worlds we play in. Also it says that 4 equal CR use around 20% each and a 5th could wipe them out but doesn't say they can't do it, or clever use of tactics, items, spells, abilities etc can't increase this number or that they must only fight 4 encounters. Nor does it specifiy how long each encounter should be, only the amount of resources it uses.

If you are using RAW then you couldn't spend all that money on a single item its over the 1/2 total limit allowed for a single item when creating a charcter above 1st level. Hence by your own arguement, not RAW.

Now I'm liking a number of your suggestions and many have made me tweek the class, the use of the Djim's is the thing I was most worried about, but having used it in play myself it does one thing well and thats about it.Our party fighter tanks it up, drawing the attention to him while I dish out heavy attacks. I agree that the number of attacks should drop though, 10 attacks is very good, even for a level 20 character.

Hopefully this post clears up the misunderstanding!

DracoDei
2007-11-27, 01:38 PM
Regarding "Closing the Flower" and Nanny Ogg: One solution might be to only make it effect people who are within 5 miles (or 10 or 20) per History Monk level for the entire process.

Lostintransit
2007-11-27, 01:51 PM
Regarding "Closing the Flower" and Nanny Ogg: One solution might be to only make it effect people who are within 5 miles (or 10 or 20) per History Monk level for the entire process.

Thats a good idea, i wasn't sure if the added effect of having a will save against the effect was better or not. what do you think?

Heliomance
2007-11-27, 02:02 PM
oh wait just realised... you mean you don't play a game of story you play a game of numbers i.e. the DMG say 4 encounters a day now stop your PC's are invincible until tomoorow! where as we play as if its real! you don't get to say to the monster go away i've had my 4 fights today, if you invade a lair and its got 60 rooms in it and you can't clear 4 then have the rest ignore you coz you had 4 fights that ain't realistic at all. That explains your crazy numbers, no one I know round here I.e. 20+ people play it like that we all play it real.

Yeah, that was actually pretty insulting whether you meant it that way or not.

Lostintransit
2007-11-27, 02:18 PM
Yeah, that was actually pretty insulting whether you meant it that way or not.

:smalleek: funnily enough I was NOT typing that in an insulting way. It just suddenly dawned on me, mid type, that people do have different styles of playing DnD but that as I'm a pretty poor at explaining exactly what I meant in writing it came out like that. Reading my post again and loooking at it from that point of view it does seem that way, but while typing it i was meerly trying to formulate my thoughts on how the numbers were achieved into words on screen. As my above post attempts to rectify.

What i meant to say was something along the lines of;

"yes in 4 encounters of equal CR per day the history monk as it stood(Then) is insanely good." and then i tried to point out "As a group and every group I know, none of them just have 4 equal Cr encounters per day, the fights are often long, messy, drawn out or surprisingly intricate. So based on my experince The history monk runs out of steam long before say, a fighter ever would."

However i would then say "Thats based just on my experince, but could you help me understand a little better?"

Now if I had taken the time to sit and ponder the post, think it through then reply in a sensible and non quick fashion, it would have come across better. (I've got to remember that the Internet is a faceless medium, and as such you cannot easily tell the friendly lines from the mean ones, as its all down to you, the individual how you read them. Where as speaking face to face you can read the subtle movements in body language etc)

All I can do is apologise to Kyace for the misunderstanding.

DracoDei
2007-11-27, 02:21 PM
Thats a good idea, i wasn't sure if the added effect of having a will save against the effect was better or not. what do you think?

No will save, except perhaps for say... 12 HD and up characters/creatures maybe. Or maybe express it as History Monk Level +3 in order to get a save. In certain campaigns it is still going to be VERY powerful. The party become the ultimate ghosts, nearly totally untracable. In a more hack-n-slash campaign, it is going to be useless, and in a campaign where the party trades on their reputation, it is going to be idiotic to even consider using.

Alex12
2007-11-27, 02:42 PM
Is the penalty for an alignment shift the same as for normal Monks?

Lostintransit
2007-11-27, 03:14 PM
Is the penalty for an alignment shift the same as for normal Monks?

I haven't added a clause against it yet but I'm pretty sure their should be a clause against it.
As for Closing the flower history monk level +3 seems fair for a HD limit. As for styles of play, they only forget the monk so the rest of the party may struggle. but if you have a group of monks their would becomes ghostlike which is what its supposed to do.