How do you drag another person onto a mount?

[Gruftzwerg]

This side debate emerged in a recent FoM related thread.

How can a rider pick up/drag a second person onto his mount (behind or in front of him onto the horse)? (if at all)
I think this is an interesting question for a debate.

Imho depending on the situation, the ruling should/could be different:

"You" are the rider. The target you want to pick up is
1) not in action/combat (the amount of time the actions needs and the coordination ain't tracked); target is willing
2) in action/combat; target is willing and has prepared an action
3) in action/combat; target is willing but hasn't prepared an action
4) in action/combat; target is unwilling
5) is unwilling and unprepared (surprise attack)

__________________________

Here are a few thought and questions that emerged for me due to the debate.


When is "Aid Another" possible?
Who makes the actual ride check and who aids?

And is it possible to use the "grappling" rules while mounted?
The counter argument was that you need to enter the target's space.


I would like to hear some thoughts on this. I'm a bit short on time atm and will come back later. I hope that I also find some time to prepare (finding the relevant rules, checking FAQ and bla) and will add my 2cent later.

It would be nice if you could quote the rules (or book + page) you are referring to.

Further, pls try to make it obvious if you should have different opinions regarding a RAW and RAI point of view.

I already thank everybody who shows interest and invests some time into this <3

[icefractal]

In the case that the person being picked up has an action readied, it seems like they could just mount the horse (move action), possibly with a bonus for the rider helping them, but also with a penalty for mounting into a non-standard position, so I'd just say those cancel out.

For the case that they don't, I'm not sure there's a completely RAW answer. If the rider's strong enough to carry them as a normal load, I'd say that can be accomplished as a move action, like picking up an object. Don't know if that's RAW, but logically picking up a willing person shouldn't be harder than an equally large object. Would require a Ride check from the rider (Cover, DC 15, seems the closest) to keep balance while doing so.

In the case of no action and they're too heavy to just carry? I'm not even sure what kind of check would be appropriate. Not really feeling grapple for a willing target, because a skilled warrior shouldn't be harder to pull onto a horse (if they want to be pulled) than a novice one would be. Maybe just a higher-DC Ride check from the rider? Possibly Fast Mount (DC 20) with an encumbrance penalty based on how heavy the person being picked up is?

Unwilling targets would need that plus a Grapple check, IMO. But that is bending RAW a little as far as how the grapple would work.

[loky1109]

"You" are the rider. The target you want to pick up is
1) not in action/combat (the amount of time the actions needs and the coordination ain't tracked); target is willing
2) in action/combat; target is willing and has prepared an action
3) in action/combat; target is willing but hasn't prepared an action
4) in action/combat; target is unwilling
5) is unwilling and unprepared (surprise attack)

1) You succeeded.
2) Target can Mount as move or Fast Mount as free+Ride check. You can aid.
3) Target can initiate grapple with you as AoO.
4-5) You can use Improved Grab. This is only way. Via standard starting grapple you should move out from your mount into target's space. Or even you should move into target's space with your mount, but mount can't and it is auto fail.

Grapple + Mounted combat working bad. T-Rex try to grab and swallow knight from horse? Ok. It grab and swallow. Knight now is in T-Rex's stomach and simultaneously on his mount which isn't in T-Rex stomach and even in grapple. Because starting grapple doesn't end been mounted.

[smetzger]

I would use a skill check and let the player(s) choose what skill(s) they want to use for the skill check.

Most appropriate skill in my opinion would be Ride. But I could see the case for Tumble or Jump being used (especially if it is more of you pulling a Legolas maneuver to get onto the horse rather than the rider pulling you onto the horse).

[Gruftzwerg]

In the case that the person being picked up has an action readied, it seems like they could just mount the horse (move action), possibly with a bonus for the rider helping them, but also with a penalty for mounting into a non-standard position, so I'd just say those cancel out.

For the case that they don't, I'm not sure there's a completely RAW answer. If the rider's strong enough to carry them as a normal load, I'd say that can be accomplished as a move action, like picking up an object. Don't know if that's RAW, but logically picking up a willing person shouldn't be harder than an equally large object. Would require a Ride check from the rider (Cover, DC 15, seems the closest) to keep balance while doing so.

In the case of no action and they're too heavy to just carry? I'm not even sure what kind of check would be appropriate. Not really feeling grapple for a willing target, because a skilled warrior shouldn't be harder to pull onto a horse (if they want to be pulled) than a novice one would be. Maybe just a higher-DC Ride check from the rider? Possibly Fast Mount (DC 20) with an encumbrance penalty based on how heavy the person being picked up is?

Unwilling targets would need that plus a Grapple check, IMO. But that is bending RAW a little as far as how the grapple would work.
I was also looking at the Cover DC(15) to get into the right position. Not for "cover" because the rules for that restrict you from attacking (because you would be more concerned to get the cover bonus). But the DC should be the same to get into a more horizontal position to pick someone up.

Weight restriction because of carrying capacity is a valid argument (both mount and rider).
If as example, the mount is strong enough, but the rider ain't, the ride skill should be increased and you can only drag the person alongside you, not drag him onto the mount.


1) You succeeded.
2) Target can Mount as move or Fast Mount as free+Ride check. You can aid.
3) Target can initiate grapple with you as AoO.
4-5) You can use Improved Grab. This is only way. Via standard starting grapple you should move out from your mount into target's space. Or even you should move into target's space with your mount, but mount can't and it is auto fail.

Grapple + Mounted combat working bad. T-Rex try to grab and swallow knight from horse? Ok. It grab and swallow. Knight now is in T-Rex's stomach and simultaneously on his mount which isn't in T-Rex stomach and even in grapple. Because starting grapple doesn't end been mounted.
1+2 ) argee

3) can you provoke an AoO from an ally? hm..^^ arguable. But the rider should be able to initiate a grapple here.
There is no need for Improved Grab. First, you don't need to move with your entire body into the square. The rule is intended for bigger creatures who otherwise would not be able to fit into a single square, but can be abused by us without any problems. This gives you 2 options:
a) assume a similar position like cover (DC 15). This should put you upper half into the side square to enter your allies/targets space
b) enter your allies square with your mount partially. Might get a lil tight in there, but should be possible.

Finally, I would argue that the DM should invert any bonuses your ally might have to normally stop a grapple (e.g. Ability modifier). Since he doesn't try to avoid the grapple but is willing to be grappled this would work as cricumstance modifier imho.

4. Similar to 3, but the target won't help us. Thus the mount may not enter his space for free. And since the mount ain't initiating the grapple, he may not move into the targets space. Which sole leaves option "3a". Then you initiate a grapple as normal and check your and your mounts carrying capacity.

5. as "4" but the enemy loses his Dex mod to AC.



I would use a skill check and let the player(s) choose what skill(s) they want to use for the skill check.

Most appropriate skill in my opinion would be Ride. But I could see the case for Tumble or Jump being used (especially if it is more of you pulling a Legolas maneuver to get onto the horse rather than the rider pulling you onto the horse).

I think it should remain a ride check. But I think an argument can be made that, "if you have 5 ranks or more in Jump &/or Tumble, that you should get a situational stacking +2 synergy bonus for it".

[Seward]

We always used the basic "pick up an object" action for anybody who isn't resisting (that's grappling).

It should not be easier to pick up a dead body than a live, cooperating ally.

This is a move action that provokes an AOO vs the guy doing the action. (GM vary on whether the person being lifted is also at risk, as it is most often needed when somebody is bleeding out and needs to be moved...you might want to provoke an aoo via movement before doing the lift and hope he does not have combat reflexes)

We normally also allowed people to use their own actions to "get on" an ally. A second person can usually mount a larger sized steed with "get on mount" move action, although if they lack a decent ride skill, they will need hands free to grip the rider. Likewise you could grab the belt of your enlarged buddy as he walks by with a readied action and be carried that way, using your hands, not his. Same size needs more cooperation, depending on who needs hand free. Basically your options are a bridal carry, a fireman carry or piggyback, and only piggyback needs minimal involvement from carrier (but probably a full round action to set up without moving).

For enlarged humanoids, or a human carrying a halfling, just imagine a parent with a small child and all the ways they get carried.

Basically if you burn a move action, standard if using readied action, this isn't something that is terribly difficult to adjudicate, if the GM can visualize how it is happening. It's actually a bit harder to describe when one character is so strong that picking up a party member is like moving a balloon-doll of human size or a cardboard cutout...awkward but easy. That sort of thing is more likely in Pathfinder system because of the ant-haul spell, but higher level strong martials have the strength of an elephant packed into a medium sized frame, so silly-seeming things become a lot more possible.

back to OP's questions.....

"You" are the rider. The target you want to pick up is
1) not in action/combat (the amount of time the actions needs and the coordination ain't tracked); target is willing
either you have a hand free and pull them on, or you hold still and let them mount. Taking 10 or 20 as needed based on skills, strength (mountain plate dwarf with tower shield will have a harder time mounting AND be harder to pull up than 30lb halfling sorcerer with 5lb of gear and no encumbrance or Legolas with massive dex and ride skill)

2) in action/combat; target is willing and has prepared an action
If you stop, or start your turn next to them and wait before moving they can just mount with their move action.

If you don't stop, they need to fastmount with their ride skill, or make an attack roll to grab you or the saddle (presumably vs an easy touch DC as you are cooperating). Success with attack roll approach has them moving with you but not on the mount, basically hanging off you, needing another action by you or them to move them behind you on the mount to "ride" it.

3) in action/combat; target is willing but hasn't prepared an action
You need to use "pick up an object action", which requires a free hand and a readied action if your mount does not stop. If strong enough you can lift them into the saddle behind you. If not you can drag them with you, assuming you and mount are both strong enough to drag such weight, which should be the case barring a 6 str grey elf wizard and a heavily armored halforc or similar mismatch.

4) in action/combat; target is unwilling
This is awkward. Normally a grapple would have you entering opponent's space, you need the monster ability Improved grab to do the reverse. Kinda can't be done RAW without incapacitating said opponent first (then same as case number 3)

5) is unwilling and unprepared (surprise attack)
RAW, surprise matters only for AOO on grapple attack, it does not fix the fundamental problem of no way to grab somebody and pull them into your space as a bog-standard PC race. If this is something you want to do, GM probably has to invent a feat to allow it, possibly requiring improved grapple as a prereq although maybe if this is a mounted-only trick, use mounted combat as a prereq instead.

[Zarvistic]

I would make it a Strength check, perhaps based on weight. Then change DC for your different situations.

[loky1109]

If you don't stop, they need to fastmount with their ride skill, or make an attack roll to grab you or the saddle
Why? Target can ready move action and mount without any attack rolls or any other checks.
More, target can't fastmount if he hasn't available move action, so he anyway should ready move.

[Seward]

Why? Target can ready move action and mount without any attack rolls or any other checks.
More, target can't fastmount if he hasn't available move action, so he anyway should ready move.

Ok, right. Makes sense by RAW, just like it is weirdly impossible to grapple an enemy onto mount. It seems like it should be harder to mount a moving creature but rules don't say it is.

[Gruftzwerg]

We always used the basic "pick up an object" action for anybody who isn't resisting (that's grappling).

It should not be easier to pick up a dead body than a live, cooperating ally.
Sadly RAW disagrees here. The "pick up an item" action is defined as manipulating (e.g. picking up/ moving) items or objects. Dead bodies qualify, while creatures don't.
But as long as the ally is fully prepared and contributing, it is easier for the rider. Since the rider can just Aid Another in this situation.
But unprepared creatures may move in unpredictable ways, which may make it harder than picking up a dead body. Further, I don't think a rider can pick up or move a dead body on the ground due to reach issues.




"You" are the rider. The target you want to pick up is
1) not in action/combat (the amount of time the actions needs and the coordination ain't tracked); target is willing
either you have a hand free and pull them on, or you hold still and let them mount. Taking 10 or 20 as needed based on skills, strength (mountain plate dwarf with tower shield will have a harder time mounting AND be harder to pull up than 30lb halfling sorcerer with 5lb of gear and no encumbrance or Legolas with massive dex and ride skill)
Fully agree here. And I support the taking 10/20. As you said, some character should have a harder time to get on the mount. I mean, the party needs a good laugh and someone to pick on his ride skills xD



4) in action/combat; target is unwilling
This is awkward. Normally a grapple would have you entering opponent's space, you need the monster ability Improved grab to do the reverse. Kinda can't be done RAW without incapacitating said opponent first (then same as case number
I don't think it is a problem to enter the targets space. You don't need to enter with your full body. Remind you of large creatures. Thus, we abuse this fact by riding in a more horizontal position as depicted with the cover position. You upper body now can enter a target (enemies) space.

[Seward]

But unprepared creatures may move in unpredictable ways, which may make it harder than picking up a dead body. Further, I don't think a rider can pick up or move a dead body on the ground due to reach issues.



I grant your point makes some sense if ally is actively avoiding incoming attacks. If they are not moving (no dex bonus to AC, basically) they should be object-like-enough, or if that isn't enough for you maybe they have to be totally still (dex bonus treated as zero, like paralysis....or a dead body). And that might use an action for them of some kind.

As for reach, if you want a non-RAW but realistic mechanic, that's a ride check, probably same as using mount for cover. I've seen cowboys grab hats or ropes off ground when mounted, it seems a similar kind of move (sliding over saddle and hanging off on one side). RAW though, you have reach to every square around your mount, you and mount are treated as a single large creature with 5' reach for all purposes. So dead body by RAW is a non-issue but a live one might cause a GM to apply other mechanics, similar in concept to somebody using reach spell to hit a buddy with a cure while in melee.

[loky1109]

. You upper body now can enter a target (enemies) space.

Again can't. You can't enter a target something that you haven't. Large creature can enter one of his squares, not one of his body parts. Medium creature has only one square and can't separate it. You just haven't "upper body" by RAW, all you have is one 5ft square (cube).
And even if you are large. Can you out one or more of your squares from your mount's space? I don't sure.

[Fouredged Sword]

Hauling and keeping a resisting person on a mount should be a grapple action. You grapple them, move yourself and your mount into their square, and then must maintain the grapple.

Your mount isn't grappled and is free to move. I would, as DM, make you pass the opponents grapple check as a ride check each round to stay mounted. Fail and you are faced with the choice to drop the person or have them drag both of you from the mount.

[Gruftzwerg]

Again can't. You can't enter a target something that you haven't. Large creature can enter one of his squares, not one of his body parts. Medium creature has only one square and can't separate it. You just haven't "upper body" by RAW, all you have is one 5ft square (cube).
And even if you are large. Can you out one or more of your squares from your mount's space? I don't sure.

A medium creature consist of 2x 5ft cubes stacked on top of each other if the creature is standing. The 5ft cube is a small creature. Just because most of the time 3.5 talks about squares doesn't change that the battlefield (and creatures/objects) is in reality 3d. But in most situations the height is not relevant (unless something is flying as example) thus the rules sole speak from squares. But we have rules for the 3rd dimension.

Thus a medium creature in a horizontal posture is covering 2 neighbor squares.

The cover action while riding describes how you cover at the side of the mount. This is something you can do in real life and in 3.5. But since we don't want the cover but sole the posture, it should only require a ride roll and not block the attack action (like when you are actively trying to cover from attacks).

[Seward]

Hauling and keeping a resisting person on a mount should be a grapple action. You grapple them, move yourself and your mount into their square, and then must maintain the grapple.

Your mount isn't grappled and is free to move. I would, as DM, make you pass the opponents grapple check as a ride check each round to stay mounted. Fail and you are faced with the choice to drop the person or have them drag both of you from the mount.

This is a pretty solid ruling, although the extra move by the mount might cause odd things with actions.

[loky1109]

A medium creature consist of 2x 5ft cubes stacked on top of each other if the creature is standing.
I need proof. As I know, all creatures in 3.5 are cube, not parallelepipeds, if 5 ft - 5 ft in all dimensions.

[Gruftzwerg]

I need proof. As I know, all creatures in 3.5 are cube, not parallelepipeds, if 5 ft - 5 ft in all dimensions.

Ok, I realized that 3.5 seems to sole use squares and that it was the 3.0 rules I was mixing em up. Sorry for that and thx for pointing me to it. (my group still often uses the 3.0 facing rules..^^)

But that still doesn't stop you (and your mount) to enter a targets space to initiate a grapple (as normal). Your mount does the movement to enter the targets space. The target has the option to make an AoO either against your mount or you (or both of you if he has Combat Reflexes).
If he fails to attack and hit you, then you can initiate a grapple as normal.

If the target is friendly, the AoO ain't needed. Further, the DM should decide if any DEX mod to AC of the ally should get inverted. Because the ally is trying to be grappled (and thus DEX should help lessen the AC and not make it harder) and not trying to avoid the grapple. The DM can book this as situational bonus to be still on RAW side.

[loky1109]

But that still doesn't stop you (and your mount) to enter a targets space to initiate a grapple (as normal). Your mount does the movement to enter the targets space. The target has the option to make an AoO either against your mount or you (or both of you if he has Combat Reflexes).

To enter targets space mount should initiate grapple itself...
Stop, stop. Mount can enter ally square. Ok, it works. Maybe.

But if you want to take enemy it doesn't.

And there is one more problem. Entering enemy's space is part of grapple, not move itself. So, to do it and not go out your mount you need mount that already is in enemy's space.

[Fouredged Sword]

To enter targets space mount should initiate grapple itself...
Stop, stop. Mount can enter ally square. Ok, it works. Maybe.

But if you want to take enemy it doesn't.

And there is one more problem. Entering enemy's space is part of grapple, not move itself. So, to do it and not go out your mount you need mount that already is in enemy's space.
You can enter an enemy's square in 3.5. It's how you use attacks with a reach of 0ft. You just can't usually end your movement in that square or pass through the square save for special conditions. If you fail to trigger one of those conditions you default to the accidently ending in an illegal square rule and are kicked back to the last legal square you passed through.

Worse comes to worse you just need your mount to use the tumble skill, or to initiate a grapple check of it's own. Pass or fail it enters the opponents square.