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47948201
2021-12-07, 10:41 PM
It seems like everyone and their lover has done one of these, but most of the time they end up too powerful (straight up combining the defining features of both changelings and winged tieflings) or kinda nonsensical, in my opinion (abyssal chicken's "bad flier" trait makes sense mechanically, but logically taking off should be way more difficult than gliding, and one hour of disguise self is, while certainly useful for specific plans, a bit limiting for what I personally imagine succubi doing)

So, here's my attempt to take the most prominent features of succubi across D&D editions and squeeze them into a 5e race that doesn't overshadow the other options too hard.


Ability Scores: Cha +2; Dex +1. Succubi are lithe and very charming.

Size: Medium

Speed: 30 ft.

Creature Type. You are a Fiend.

Darkvision. You have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.

Flight. Bat-like wings give you a flying speed of 30 feet. You can't use your flying speed while you wear medium or heavy armor. (If your campaign uses the variant rule for encumbrance, you can't use your flying speed if you are encumbered.)
Each round, you can only ascend 5 feet for every 30 feet of flying speed you have. You can fly for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, and regain the use of this trait when you finish a short or long rest. A round does not count towards this limit if your altitude decreases by at least 5 feet and does not increase.

Change Appearance. As an action, you can magically transform into a humanoid form, your natural appearance, or something inbetween. You decide what you look like, but you cannot change your height or weight by more than ten percent, and you can make only minor changes to your voice. Your equipment doesn't change in appearance, size, or shape. Without wings, you lose the ability to fly, but none of your other game statistics change. You revert to your true form if you die.

Fiendish Magic. You can cast charm person once with this trait. You can substitute physical contact with the target for the spell's verbal component. You regain the use of this trait when you finish a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for this spell.

Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and one other language of your choice.



I can imagine a world where the only ability score bonus is Charisma, but Dexterity made too much sense to leave out (5e succubi have super high values in both stats, and the flavor text is pulled straight from the infamous 3.4e book Savage Species)

I did consider giving some natural armor bonus or fire resistance, and maybe a skill proficiency or two (enemy succubi always have those), but that felt too powerful and seemed like it'd be stepping on other races' toes a bit.

Darkvision basically feels like a necessity for a fiend, and the fiend type... Uh, yeah. Neither of these are super huge traits, but they certainly are there, and have their uses (darkvision especially)

Flight is a design challenge for anyone who makes a race like this. It basically does two things: trivializes low-to-the-ground natural/manufactured obstacles, and trivializes melee enemies. By imposing turn and height limits, it becomes much harder to just fly over a wall or across a lake, and if you want to fly away from enemies, be prepared to either spend your first turn still in their range, or eat into your action economy by starting combat with a Dash--and don't expect to spend every encounter airborne, or you might not be able to fly when you really need to.

If you want to get into the royal ball, or the governor's office, or the paladin's pants, then hiding your fiendish features is pretty important. Changelings' shtick is being able to be anyone, anytime, so succubi should have a more limited ability to disguise themselves, but I didn't want to put an actual time limit on it (how often do you meet someone at a tavern, take them to your inn room, and part ways all in under an hour?). You can still pretend not to be the person who swindled that merchant, but if you want to get into the bank's vault, you'll have to find a worker who's pretty close in appearance to impersonate.

For magic, I would've preferred giving suggestion instead of charm person, but by this point the race already has two fairly useful features, I think, so 1st-level magic once per day. Casting via touch is meant to emulate the "charming kiss" that succubi frequently have (though it's not limited to kissing, of course). Some way to have a "draining kiss" would also have made sense, but I was worried that's too many unique features.

It would've made sense to give the option of Abyssal or Infernal languages, but most races get two, so two it is.


Too powerful? Too niche? Too unclear? Too detailed? Just right? What are your thoughts?

Breccia
2021-12-07, 10:59 PM
It's always going to be hard to make a balanced PC race that's based on a powerful/legendary monster. My feelings for flight on a level 1 character aside, this feels pretty good.

You can always rename them, by the way. "Succubus" is a powerful demon, but there could be a tiefling-like partial-demonic race with lighter versions of their powers.

Bjarkmundur
2021-12-08, 02:58 AM
Im pretty sure you nailed the experience of playing a tiefling with a succubus lineage!

Jervis
2021-12-08, 06:49 PM
It seems like everyone and their lover has done one of these, but most of the time they end up too powerful (straight up combining the defining features of both changelings and winged tieflings) or kinda nonsensical, in my opinion (abyssal chicken's "bad flier" trait makes sense mechanically, but logically taking off should be way more difficult than gliding, and one hour of disguise self is, while certainly useful for specific plans, a bit limiting for what I personally imagine succubi doing)

So, here's my attempt to take the most prominent features of succubi across D&D editions and squeeze them into a 5e race that doesn't overshadow the other options too hard.


Ability Scores: Cha +2; Dex +1. Succubi are lithe and very charming.

Size: Medium

Speed: 30 ft.

Creature Type. You are a Fiend.

Darkvision. You have superior vision in dark and dim conditions. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.

Flight. Bat-like wings give you a flying speed of 30 feet. You can't use your flying speed while you wear medium or heavy armor. (If your campaign uses the variant rule for encumbrance, you can't use your flying speed if you are encumbered.)
Each round, you can only ascend 5 feet for every 30 feet of flying speed you have. You can fly for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, and regain the use of this trait when you finish a short or long rest. A round does not count towards this limit if your altitude decreases by at least 5 feet and does not increase.

Change Appearance. As an action, you can magically transform into a humanoid form, your natural appearance, or something inbetween. You decide what you look like, but you cannot change your height or weight by more than ten percent, and you can make only minor changes to your voice. Your equipment doesn't change in appearance, size, or shape. Without wings, you lose the ability to fly, but none of your other game statistics change. You revert to your true form if you die.

Fiendish Magic. You can cast charm person once with this trait. You can substitute physical contact with the target for the spell's verbal component. You regain the use of this trait when you finish a long rest. Charisma is your spellcasting ability for this spell.

Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and one other language of your choice.



I can imagine a world where the only ability score bonus is Charisma, but Dexterity made too much sense to leave out (5e succubi have super high values in both stats, and the flavor text is pulled straight from the infamous 3.4e book Savage Species)

I did consider giving some natural armor bonus or fire resistance, and maybe a skill proficiency or two (enemy succubi always have those), but that felt too powerful and seemed like it'd be stepping on other races' toes a bit.

Darkvision basically feels like a necessity for a fiend, and the fiend type... Uh, yeah. Neither of these are super huge traits, but they certainly are there, and have their uses (darkvision especially)

Flight is a design challenge for anyone who makes a race like this. It basically does two things: trivializes low-to-the-ground natural/manufactured obstacles, and trivializes melee enemies. By imposing turn and height limits, it becomes much harder to just fly over a wall or across a lake, and if you want to fly away from enemies, be prepared to either spend your first turn still in their range, or eat into your action economy by starting combat with a Dash--and don't expect to spend every encounter airborne, or you might not be able to fly when you really need to.

If you want to get into the royal ball, or the governor's office, or the paladin's pants, then hiding your fiendish features is pretty important. Changelings' shtick is being able to be anyone, anytime, so succubi should have a more limited ability to disguise themselves, but I didn't want to put an actual time limit on it (how often do you meet someone at a tavern, take them to your inn room, and part ways all in under an hour?). You can still pretend not to be the person who swindled that merchant, but if you want to get into the bank's vault, you'll have to find a worker who's pretty close in appearance to impersonate.

For magic, I would've preferred giving suggestion instead of charm person, but by this point the race already has two fairly useful features, I think, so 1st-level magic once per day. Casting via touch is meant to emulate the "charming kiss" that succubi frequently have (though it's not limited to kissing, of course). Some way to have a "draining kiss" would also have made sense, but I was worried that's too many unique features.

It would've made sense to give the option of Abyssal or Infernal languages, but most races get two, so two it is.


Too powerful? Too niche? Too unclear? Too detailed? Just right? What are your thoughts?

The fly speed is kind of annoyingly worded. Winged Teiflings exist and are lorewise often descended from Succubi. There’s no logical reason for a actual succubus to have worse flight. Yes i know “balance” but for my money the problem is with the rules for flight having no counter instead of giving things a fly speed, the game needs more options for ranged enemies and ways to counter flight. My homebrew solution has always been to require Concentration checks to not fall out the sky when you take damage as if concentrating on a spell, this applies to monsters to but dragons failing a con save is purely a theoretical concept in my experience. The other features are fine.

Speaking as a person who has and still is trying to create rules for playable dragons, making a powerful monster work as a player character just kind of doesn’t work. Not as a race anyway. You either make a race that’s OP or so nerfed it feels bad to play. For my money I’d take a leaf out of the Strixhaven UA’s book and make them a race as subclass that gets some features at level 1 out the gate and trades subclass features for racial traits.

47948201
2021-12-08, 09:13 PM
Yeah, the flying restrictions are pretty wordy and kinda awkward. I actually rather like the Concentration check idea for how simple it is. It doesn't drastically change what designs the DM is allowed to use, but it certainly makes flying a riskier prospect in a believable way. Thinking about it, another solution is to impose disadvantage on attack rolls (and maybe give advantage to enemy saves?) while you're flying, since attacking while your wings are flapping is tough, and waiting for the right moment in your wings' cycle might make the difference between getting a clean shot and missing that opportunity. I don't know that I'd jump to putting only a coordination-based restriction on a succubus, who'd tend to have way more Dex than Con, but just throwing it out there.



You can always rename them, by the way. "Succubus" is a powerful demon, but there could be a tiefling-like partial-demonic race with lighter versions of their powers.

Speaking as a person who has and still is trying to create rules for playable dragons, making a powerful monster work as a player character just kind of doesn’t work. Not as a race anyway. You either make a race that’s OP or so nerfed it feels bad to play. For my money I’d take a leaf out of the Strixhaven UA’s book and make them a race as subclass that gets some features at level 1 out the gate and trades subclass features for racial traits.
I actually have tried a succubus warlock subclass once, which was an interesting experience for a longer campaign, but for now I was going for this sort of explanation:

"A very small number of succubi are, for one reason or another, closely tied to and considered native to the Material Plane. They are still immortal, but must eat, breathe, and sleep as humanoids do. Such individuals tend to be far weaker--both physically and magically--than their extraplanar cousins. It is theorized that this is because they must fuel and utilize their own "magical furnaces", rather than being able to draw upon the energy from the Lower Planes. The description provided here is of such a native succubus."

I figure, it takes a very certain anatomical structure for a man-sized creature to fly, and "humanoid plus wings" ain't it. Fiendish Codex I suggests a demon's muscles (and biology in general) are partly fueled by Abyssal magic, which is an easy explanation for "true" extraplanar fiends. Nerf the magic, and you nerf the body, too.

Composer99
2021-12-08, 10:02 PM
You can always rename them, by the way. "Succubus" is a powerful demon, but there could be a tiefling-like partial-demonic race with lighter versions of their powers.

They could be alu-fiends (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Alu-fiend), which were offspring of succubi and mortals.

Bjarkmundur
2021-12-09, 07:04 AM
The fly speed is kind of annoyingly worded. Winged Teiflings exist and are lorewise often descended from Succubi. There’s no logical reason for a actual succubus to have worse flight. Yes i know “balance” but for my money the problem is with the rules for flight having no counter instead of giving things a fly speed, the game needs more options for ranged enemies and ways to counter flight. My homebrew solution has always been to require Concentration checks to not fall out the sky when you take damage as if concentrating on a spell, this applies to monsters to but dragons failing a con save is purely a theoretical concept in my experience. The other features are fine.

Speaking as a person who has and still is trying to create rules for playable dragons, making a powerful monster work as a player character just kind of doesn’t work. Not as a race anyway. You either make a race that’s OP or so nerfed it feels bad to play. For my money I’d take a leaf out of the Strixhaven UA’s book and make them a race as subclass that gets some features at level 1 out the gate and trades subclass features for racial traits.


Con save to fly and races a Subclasses! I'm in love with this.

Jervis
2021-12-10, 09:31 PM
Con save to fly and races a Subclasses! I'm in love with this.

Thanks. I should really write down my list of Fly house rules. Most of them are things like the concentration requirement to stay airborn if you’re hit and limits on mobility in constrained spaces. I also added a Fly skill A La pathfinder to let you pull of tricky things like flying in hostile weather and pulling off difficult maneuvers, though the latter I rarely use. It’s why I generally allow fly speeds in my games, it gives more counter play for both players and monsters. I’ve experimented with disadvantage on ranged attack rolls but i’m not sure if I like it.

Bjarkmundur
2021-12-11, 11:31 AM
I would love to see the entire thing. It would have an immediate effect on my campaign, in a pretty cool way, to suddenly introduce flying enemies and allies. Especially since we're moving into more high-fantasy after new-years. I guess you have everything figured out regarding flying mounts :D

Jervis
2021-12-12, 05:24 PM
I would love to see the entire thing. It would have an immediate effect on my campaign, in a pretty cool way, to suddenly introduce flying enemies and allies. Especially since we're moving into more high-fantasy after new-years. I guess you have everything figured out regarding flying mounts :D

Actually yeah for flying mounts I mostly have more fleshed out rules for forcing a creature of their mount, replacing a mounts fly and concentration checks with your handle animal check, and some miscellaneous other options. You know what I’ll just post a write up of what it be been using later tonight. I’d like to get some community feedback on it.

Magicspook
2021-12-20, 03:02 PM
I feel like it it too strong still and also too convoluted; it needs trimming down further. Ask yourself: what is the ESSENCE of a succubus? Is it really necessary for her to fly? Is a bonus to dex really needed? Is darkvision essential?

My advice for makkng a race is to add two features, one stronger than the other, where only one is useful in combat and the other is utility or social based. Ask youself which behaviour you want to stimulate from players. In this case, I'd say the shapeshifting and charming parts are what makes a quintessential succubus, not the darkvision or flight. If you refuse to lose the wings, get rid of the charming feature (because that one is useful in combat).

Btw: try to avoid heaping convoluted if-thens onto your features, like the components of charm person and the rising speed for flying. Chances are, they won't come up, will only be annoying as you keep having to look them up or will be forgotten about. Just go all in; 30ft flying speed and the charm person simply requires no components (or make it a simple save-or-charm ability like fey presence).