New DMs and casters dilemma

[Gudrae]

I've recently found myself playing a game with a player that has chosen to let our forever DM have a break. He's done some things very well and I've been really enjoying it, but I think a sentiment I've been mulling over has been confirmed. I think one shouldn't play a caster (or at least a full caster) with a new or less experienced DM. It really feels like they don't quite know how react or challenge the party having reliable magic. Has anyone else gotten a similar feeling? Thoughts?

[False God]

No, how else is the DM going to improve?

Like, I think all players, regardless of class or build, should take into account the capabilities of the DM and try to help them improve, not by completely removing elements they're struggling with, but by helping them get better at handling those elements.

If you think the DM is having problems, talk to the other players and get them to help out.

Magic is pretty tame in 5E. I've done far worse with a well-tuned Barbarian or Smite-happy Paladin than most casters I've played with.

[Gudrae]

I don't really deny the "How else is he going to improve?" angle. Its more of a, "If he's just starting, does he really need the added headache of magic at the start?" Particularly if he rarely touches casters.

[Leon]

Its on the player to not try to break a game even if they could, many people can play casters without doing so with or without new DMs

[Kenny_Snoggins]

I've recently found myself playing a game with a player that has chosen to let our forever DM have a break. He's done some things very well and I've been really enjoying it, but I think a sentiment I've been mulling over has been confirmed. I think one shouldn't play a caster (or at least a full caster) with a new or less experienced DM. It really feels like they don't quite know how react or challenge the party having reliable magic. Has anyone else gotten a similar feeling? Thoughts?

A few tips for tuning down magic users if you are a DM

-- Be strict on spell rules. Many spells only target humanoids (so almost no monsters), creatures and not objects, require costly components etc. Be strict about it. Also don't be lax about handedness like having a free hand for somatic components
-Lots of spells are shut down hard by not being able to see the target. Use your movement to cast and get back into full cover, the usefulness of spell casters will be greatly reduced.
-- Design the lair in an advantageous way. The main door could open over a ledge that goes over difficult terrain/lava/whatever, and have a glyph or other DM handwave thing that creates silence or darkness around the door.
--Have reinforcements arrive from behind the main axis of attack. They will probably hit the casters first

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think a lot of new GMs go through a stage of struggling to challenge the players. They're not confident yet in their ability to build encounters, and they don't want to be jerks, so they err on the side of safety. Give them constructive feedback if asked, try not to take advantage of things, and enjoy a more laid-back game for a bit. They'll get the hang of things soon.

[Gudrae]

Leon - Its on the player to not try to break a game even if they could, many people can play casters without doing so with or without new DMs


And I agree with you whole heartedly. I frankly thought I was making one of my least optimized characters ever (though thematically appropriate for the setting), and have made it a point to be slow to cast anything. It still feels like he is looking at me saying "I didn't know how I was gonna get that information to you and you did it yourself instantaneously." or him spending 10-15 mins drawing out a map for a combat we will need for 1/2 a round. I've taken to doing party tactical (more like theatrical) positioning that has little, and many times no effect on the combat just to let it last a bit longer. However, as soon as a spell come out it feels like a win button.

While he seems fine with the way combat is going, when I do out of combat utility its beginning to feel like the entire planet is quaking to prevent spells from having their expected effects. Alternatively as written he looks at me like "I had no idea that was even a thing."

Its also another thing for me as a relatively experienced caster player to knowingly tone down my casting, and something a might different to look across the room at the newer caster player that is excitedly looking at what he can do and say "you might go easier on the baddies," while sitting in front of the DM.



Kenney_Snoggins - A few tips for tuning down magic users if you are a DM

-- Be strict on spell rules. Many spells only target humanoids (so almost no monsters), creatures and not objects, require costly components etc. Be strict about it. Also don't be lax about handedness like having a free hand for somatic components
-Lots of spells are shut down hard by not being able to see the target. Use your movement to cast and get back into full cover, the usefulness of spell casters will be greatly reduced.
-- Design the lair in an advantageous way. The main door could open over a ledge that goes over difficult terrain/lava/whatever, and have a glyph or other DM handwave thing that creates silence or darkness around the door.
--Have reinforcements arrive from behind the main axis of attack. They will probably hit the casters first


I would totally not mind having components and handedness be more of a thing, though admittedly my character spends most of his time totally unarmed. As for seeing my target I could see this being a bit more of a factor but relatively easy to over come in this particular setting, being as we are on boats a good chunk of the time. Lair design would also be great, but he hasn't really taken much liberty with terrain for staged battles even when not on boats. The reinforcements and caster targeting thing I have actually thought of and have been rather hoping he might think about doing it.



Grod_The_Giant - I think a lot of new GMs go through a stage of struggling to challenge the players. They're not confident yet in their ability to build encounters, and they don't want to be jerks, so they err on the side of safety. Give them constructive feedback if asked, try not to take advantage of things, and enjoy a more laid-back game for a bit. They'll get the hang of things soon.


And that's a little of what I'm getting at. Why not play things a bit simpler to let them get a grasp of that much power over the game first, though I don't really feel like putting this character on the bus because I have specifically been given many kudos on writing a good character. Admittedly I could probably assure him more that we are all perfectly okay with more threat. As I wrote, I am very happy with how the game is going in general.

[False God]

I don't really deny the "How else is he going to improve?" angle. Its more of a, "If he's just starting, does he really need the added headache of magic at the start?" Particularly if he rarely touches casters.

Yes. Because casters are part of the game. He should understand how they operate, not necessarily in detail but at least the basics, so that he can learn how to use them and learn how to address them when others play them.

But the table should help him, not by removing the problem entirely, but by helping him learn.

[Gudrae]

False God - Yes. Because casters are part of the game. He should understand how they operate, not necessarily in detail but at least the basics, so that he can learn how to use them and learn how to address them when others play them.

But the table should help him, not by removing the problem entirely, but by helping him learn.


Fair. I just wonder from time to time if it would be preferable on a new DM's end if the integration of magic at the beginning came from his baddies, NPCs, and magic items they might deem understandable rather than PC's.

[JackPhoenix]

Fair. I just wonder from time to time if it would be preferable on a new DM's end if the integration of magic at the beginning came from his baddies, NPCs, and magic items they might deem understandable rather than PC's.

Not really a solution. If he really feels that overwhelmed by magic, he's more likely to ignore it entirely on his side, not learning anything. Be patient, explain how the spell works when you cast it, aim for more straightforward spells and point out things that may need GM adjudication up front, perhaps out of the game, so he may be ready when it comes, perhaps even offer suggestions of a possible counterplay. Avoid being rules lawyer, but remember a GM has a lot of things on his plate already, and he can't be expected to remember every rule in the book.

"Hey, I'm thinking of picking a [spell x], the description says [y], how would you rule it? Is it OK, or should I skip it entirely?" goes a long way.

[Aliess]

What level are you playing at?
Is it low enough that you can go through all the spells you have memories at the start of the game so he at least has a heads up?

[Mastikator]

Tell your DM that it's OK if he kills the PCs.

Also new DMs should always start at level 1 IMO. Not 3, 1.

[Joe the Rat]

Just keep your shenanigans to a minimum, and things should be fine. Dole out the Strangeness slowly, and keep it to Boomstick until they get used to using the environment aggressively and taking advantage of Weird Monster Powers.


I don't really deny the "How else is he going to improve?" angle. Its more of a, "If he's just starting, does he really need the added headache of magic at the start?" Particularly if he rarely touches casters.

Turning the original question on its head, should people DM if they haven't played casters? The wide ranging effects and management is a good primer to running a world.

[yellowrocket]

Turning the original question on its head, should people DM if they haven't played casters? The wide ranging effects and management is a good primer to running a world.

That I think is more important. Knowing the options. Having seen the interactions that are available. And understanding the basic rules of it is critical to DMing a game that has them.

[Gudrae]

Aliess - What level are you playing at?
Is it low enough that you can go through all the spells you have memories at the start of the game so he at least has a heads up?



Mastikator - Tell your DM that it's OK if he kills the PCs.

Also new DMs should always start at level 1 IMO. Not 3, 1.

Currently like level 6ish. We started at level 1. I've gone through my spells with him a couple of times I think. If nothing else he is also the one currently in control of the character sheets.



JackPhoenix - Not really a solution. If he really feels that overwhelmed by magic, he's more likely to ignore it entirely on his side, not learning anything. Be patient, explain how the spell works when you cast it, aim for more straightforward spells and point out things that may need GM adjudication up front, perhaps out of the game, so he may be ready when it comes, perhaps even offer suggestions of a possible counterplay. Avoid being rules lawyer, but remember a GM has a lot of things on his plate already, and he can't be expected to remember every rule in the book.

"Hey, I'm thinking of picking a [spell x], the description says [y], how would you rule it? Is it OK, or should I skip it entirely?" goes a long way.

I'm a little curious on what spells you would put under straight forward. If you mean just damaging spells like


Joe The Rat -
Just keep your shenanigans to a minimum, and things should be fine. Dole out the Strangeness slowly, and keep it to Boomstick until they get used to using the environment aggressively and taking advantage of Weird Monster Powers.


I all ready am. My only really weird spells are water breathing and mind reading (or whatever that spell is called, I don't have a book next to me at the moment).



Joe The Rat - Turning the original question on its head, should people DM if they haven't played casters? The wide ranging effects and management is a good primer to running a world.




yellowrocket - That I think is more important. Knowing the options. Having seen the interactions that are available. And understanding the basic rules of it is critical to DMing a game that has them.

He actually has played a caster. In another game I'm in he's currently playing one at 8th level. Historically speaking he shies away from non blast spells or the most typically expected like invisibility.

After a previously poor experience I'm very reluctant to advise people on what spells they could/should use unless its essentially a one time thing.

It should probably also be restated that while this particular campaign has reminded me of my thoughts on new DMs and casters that he is not the only new DM that I have felt this way about. Admittedly a lot of the players I play with are hesitant to play full casters for thematic and/or bookkeeping reasons.

[Sorinth]

There are always times where as a DM you create what you think will be an interesting challenge and then the players do something you never anticipated and make the challenge trivial, it's more often done via magic but it just as often happens via mundane means. It obviously more likely to happen with newer DMs but it happens even with experienced ones and isn't actually a bad thing, as a DM you should probably want to reward creative thinking like that and many times it's even worth intentionally putting encounters knowing that the right spell, or creative thinking will trivialize the encounter because it's fun for the players. The harder part is doing so that every player has their own moment to shine and "win" the encounter so that it's not the one "optimized" player doing it over and over again.


Now to your point as a player I would suggest simply sticking to theme instead of just grabbing the best spells of every level. So if you are an Illusionist focus more on illusion spells and even if you have Polymorph don't have it prepared everyday. Leave it for in game party strategizing, so say I have this spell but we'd have to take a LR so that I can prepare it. Chances are the party won't LR and just go through the encounter as the DM intended, but just discussing it in game will still give the DM the opportunity to learn.

[dafrca]

I find the whole "should someone GM who has not done X in game" to be super funny.

I became the GM because none of us knew how to play this new things called D&D (later to be called OD&D). GMing having never played almost anything, then moving to Basic, then over to AD&D.... Anyway, I would have loved to have played anything first to get to know the rules.

What is my point? Your GM will be fine. support him as players and encourage him to explore the game and various elements as he GMs. If the players try and cooperate the new GM can find his own rhythm and will grow stronger. :smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

(1) Tell your DM that it's OK if he kills the PCs.

Also new DMs should always start at level 1 IMO. Not 3, 1. 1. This is hard to get across to a lot of Dm's, young and old.

2. Agree.

[yellowrocket]

I find the whole "should someone GM who has not done X in game" to be super funny.

I became the GM because none of us knew how to play this new things called D&D (later to be called OD&D). GMing having never played almost anything, then moving to Basic, then over to AD&D.... Anyway, I would have loved to have played anything first to get to know the rules.


There's a difference between being the first in the group to DM and trying to DM for a group of experienced players. That's when having played a caster is important. Understanding what they're thinking and trying to accomplish.

[dafrca]

There's a difference between being the first in the group to DM and trying to DM for a group of experienced players. That's when having played a caster is important. Understanding what they're thinking and trying to accomplish.

I get what you are saying, I am not so stupid as to think the players being experienced does not matter at all. I am saying that is not enough of a concern for me to say force the person to play a caster before allowing them to GM. I think anyone who wants to learn to be a good GM has to jump into the pool not tip toe into it. :smallbiggrin:

[Composer99]

I don't think a DM has to have played casters before DMing.

I do think that sooner or later, a DM has to reckon with what they can bring to the table. Especially if they have any plans of playing into late tier 2 and up. Not necessarily knowing all the spells, but at least knowing a few commonly-used ones and knowing that spells can suddenly change things, tactically and strategically.

(You mention spending a lot of time on boats. So imagine doing something such as, say, casting wall of stone on an enemy ship in order to capsize or sink it.)

You mention being 6th level, OP. 4th-level spells are just around the corner. You've probably not long before the training wheels have to come off.

[Gudrae]

Composer99 - You mention being 6th level, OP. 4th-level spells are just around the corner. You've probably not long before the training wheels have to come off.


I agree. This is at least in part a "When playing in future new DMs' games" as opposed to currently.



Sorinth -
Now to your point as a player I would suggest simply sticking to theme instead of just grabbing the best spells of every level. So if you are an Illusionist focus more on illusion spells and even if you have Polymorph don't have it prepared everyday. Leave it for in game party strategizing, so say I have this spell but we'd have to take a LR so that I can prepare it. Chances are the party won't LR and just go through the encounter as the DM intended, but just discussing it in game will still give the DM the opportunity to learn.


And that is the plan.

[JackPhoenix]

I'm a little curious on what spells you would put under straight forward. If you mean just damaging spells like

Not just damage. Anything that would show up in a videogame: damage, healing, defenses, buffs or debuffs. Stay away from summoning, most enchantments and illusions, and anything that requires you to pay attention to it every turn.