1st level spells as Rituals

[Bjarkmundur]

There was a discussion the other day on what could possibly break if all spells gained the ritual tag. What was the result of that thread? What if only 1st level spells were available as rituals?

[Amnestic]

1st level spells that would concern me if they became rituals. Some more than others.

Armor of Agathys
Create or Destroy Water
Cure Wounds(!)
Detect Evil and Good
Detect Poison and Disease
Disguise Self
Distort Value
False Life (!)
Fog Cloud
Gift of Alacrity
Goodberry(!!!)
Healing Word (!)
Hex
Jump (okay probably not a big deal)
Longstrider
Mage Armour (give it to everyone!)
Snare

[nickl_2000]

1st level spells that would concern me if they became rituals. Some more than others.

Armor of Agathys
Create or Destroy Water
Cure Wounds(!)
Detect Evil and Good
Detect Poison and Disease
Disguise Self
Distort Value
False Life (!)
Fog Cloud
Gift of Alacrity
Goodberry(!!!)
Healing Word (!)
Hex
Jump (okay probably not a big deal)
Longstrider
Mage Armour (give it to everyone!)
Snare

Detect Poison and Disease already is a ritual, so I hope you didn't have a huge concern on that one :smallbiggrin:

I believe that the conclusion is that in general it's a bad idea. However, you could pick and choose certain spells that you thought would be okay for you campaign to try.

For example, I would love to see Snare become a ritual.

[Amnestic]

Detect Poison and Disease already is a ritual, so I hope you didn't have a huge concern on that one :smallbiggrin:

Huh, so it is, musta been marked wrong in my notes.

But yes, that (and Detect Evil/Good) are low concern.



For example, I would love to see Snare become a ritual.

I wouldn't have an issue if there was a limit on how many Snares you could set at a time (=ProfBonus? Casting stat modifier? idk). I know it's sort of soft-limited by consuming the rope but that's not really a restriction once you're out of level 2.

[JohnDaBarr]

There was a discussion the other day on what could possibly break if all spells gained the ritual tag. What was the result of that thread? What if only 1st level spells were available as rituals?

I would like to know what are you trying to accomplish with this?

IMO some 5ed spellcasting options are not really done great by design, especially overly leaning into concentration to limit power level of casters. But most spells are intentional made with spell slot limitations in mind to balance their effect on the game and those few ritual spells that exist are specifically made so their spamming wont break core aspects of the game. Extending the ritual tag to all spells, even just level one spells, really breaks those core aspects of the game.

Also, if all level one spells are rituals then taking the Ritual Caster feat becomes quite the option for any class.


Ultimately, if you really want to implement this you should consider how to limit its effect on the game balance. IDK maybe make ritual casting also an limited resource like "You can only cast number of rituals equal to your spellcasting modifier + half of your level per day."

[Bjarkmundur]

Yeah no.
The Cure Wounds bit turned me off the idea pretty much instantly xD

[clash]

1st level spells that would concern me if they became rituals. Some more than others.

Armor of Agathys
Create or Destroy Water
Cure Wounds(!)
Detect Evil and Good
Detect Poison and Disease
Disguise Self
Distort Value
False Life (!)
Fog Cloud
Gift of Alacrity
Goodberry(!!!)
Healing Word (!)
Hex
Jump (okay probably not a big deal)
Longstrider
Mage Armour (give it to everyone!)
Snare

Cure wounds, healing word, goodberry are all issues, most of these though I'm not seeing the problem with.

Disguise self, false life, and made armor all all warlock invocations already. If they were going to be game breaking I think we would have noticed. The big benefit to armor of agathys is that it scales. As a first level spell it hardly seems broken particularly when warlock is the only class that gets it by default. Hex is problematic, buy for fog cloud seems fine.

You would have to go through each on a bit of a case by case basis but at least some of them are problematic as rituals. Now if you instead built a class that got certain spells as rituals that are not normally rituals then it could be factored into class balance. Right now it makes the strong classes stronger.

[Amnestic]

Cure wounds, healing word, goodberry are all issues, most of these though I'm not seeing the problem with.

Disguise self, false life, and made armor all all warlock invocations already. If they were going to be game breaking I think we would have noticed.

"A concern" doesn't mean "game breaking".

Every class with ritual casting getting access to multiple warlock invocations at no cost is stepping on toes that don't need to be stepped on. A warlock has to sacrifice to get at-will False Life/Mage Armour*/Disguise Self. They have to give up picking other invocations to do so. Mage armour also exists as a spell slot tax in the early levels, making squishies choose between another offensive spell or a defensive spell. When you've only got 2-4 spell slots to play with, that's a notable impact on your performance. Turning it into a ritual is a direct buff to wizards/sorcs. Is it gamebreaking? No, but 13+Dex armour is also a draconic sorcerer's subclass feature which is now essentially invalidated. Is that a concern? I would say yes, it's something to be aware of.

*their invocation is only for themselves, ritual cast lets you give it to *everyone* - other PCs, familiars, beasts, wild shapes, etc.

[sithlordnergal]

"A concern" doesn't mean "game breaking".

Every class with ritual casting getting access to multiple warlock invocations at no cost is stepping on toes that don't need to be stepped on. A warlock has to sacrifice to get at-will False Life/Mage Armour*/Disguise Self. They have to give up picking other invocations to do so. Mage armour also exists as a spell slot tax in the early levels, making squishies choose between another offensive spell or a defensive spell. When you've only got 2-4 spell slots to play with, that's a notable impact on your performance. Turning it into a ritual is a direct buff to wizards/sorcs. Is it gamebreaking? No, but 13+Dex armour is also a draconic sorcerer's subclass feature which is now essentially invalidated. Is that a concern? I would say yes, it's something to be aware of.

*their invocation is only for themselves, ritual cast lets you give it to *everyone* - other PCs, familiars, beasts, wild shapes, etc.

I mean, given that you can take 2 levels of Warlock or a single feat to get access to those invocations, its not exactly hard to get those invocations in the first place. Heck, Sorcerers should always take at least 2 levels of Warlock because it will always make your build stronger in the end. Those spells are effectively ritual spells because of how easy it is to get them as At-Will spells.

As for the Draconic Sorcerer thing, the 13+Dex AC isn't really invalidated. They still get +1 to HP and expertise with Charisma checks made to interact with your chosen Dragon. If the Draconic Sorcerer's 13+Dex was invalidated by At-Will Magic Armor, then wouldn't the Lizardfolk's natural 13+Dex AC also invalidate the Draconic Sorcerer?

[DarknessEternal]

Everything with 1st level spells is more powerful than almost everything without. Why expand that gulf.

[dafrca]

Yeah no.
The Cure Wounds bit turned me off the idea pretty much instantly xD

I understand the game reasons for this, but for some reason the idea of it brings up a mental image of a mage drawing out a circle after a battle then placing their friend into the circle and trying to save their life with a ritual. The mental image is kind of cool, but I still would not allow it on my table. :smallbiggrin:

[Amnestic]

I mean, given that you can take 2 levels of Warlock or a single feat to get access to those invocations, its not exactly hard to get those invocations in the first place.

Okay, and now they don't need to do that, which means they can put that feat elsewhere, or the two levels of warlock elsewhere, and warlocks who are only warlocks are losing some of what makes them special. If we went "oh, any character can Action Surge by dipping Fighter 2, so lets give everyone Action Surge" you would, presumably, say hang on a second...


If the Draconic Sorcerer's 13+Dex was invalidated by At-Will Magic Armor, then wouldn't the Lizardfolk's natural 13+Dex AC also invalidate the Draconic Sorcerer?

No, because lizardfolk is a racial choice in which you give up playing another race. You have made a character building decision. Again: If you decided that everyone unarmoured suddenly got AC13+Dex (which making mage armour as a ritual would essentially do) then that negates a number of things (including Lizardfolk's racial).

[Bobthewizard]

I wouldn't make it a general rule, but if you are running a campaign and the players are getting to be high level, say 10+, it wouldn't break anything to make this a house rule for that campaign.

"You can now cast any prepared 1st level spells as a ritual" would be a fine houserule. I'd keep it to prepared spells so wizards don't run away with it. I would also try to come up with some bonus for non-casters to balance things out.

There are a lot of things you can do in a specific campaign if you are the DM that I wouldn't recommend as a general rule. I gave every barbarian, fighter, ranger, rogue and monk battle master maneuvers in my game and it was fine. I told the players ahead of time so no one made a battlemaster, and it is fun for there to be more options in combat.

[nickl_2000]

I'll throw one thing in here that I don't think has been mentioned.

Poor Sorcerers, they miss out on yet another cool thing :smalleek:

[Greywander]

Okay, but has anyone actually played in a campaign that allowed ritual Cure Wounds? Did it actually break the game? Or is this all just theorycraft? Because honestly, ritual Cure Wounds just sounds like an alternate take on short rests to me.

[DarknessEternal]

Okay, but has anyone actually played in a campaign that allowed ritual Cure Wounds? .

Irrelevant. We don't need to play obviously bad house rules to know they are bad.

[Amnestic]

Okay, but has anyone actually played in a campaign that allowed ritual Cure Wounds? Did it actually break the game? Or is this all just theorycraft? Because honestly, ritual Cure Wounds just sounds like an alternate take on short rests to me.

Short rests expend hit dice, which are a limited resource just like spell slots. HD also do not fully recharge on a long rest, making them one of the few carryovers between LR that isn't fully restored (alongside exhaustion).

Does giving everyone a resourceless full heal after every encounter 'break' the game? No. Does it change the game? Yes, especially when attrition of resources over multiple fights is a notable part of 5e of game design.

[Greywander]

Irrelevant. We don't need to play obviously bad house rules to know they are bad.
At one point it was "obvious" that the sun revolved around the Earth, or that sickness was caused by evil spirits, and that obviously there was no reason to wash your hands before performing surgeries. Something can be obvious while also being incorrect. Empirical experimentation is the cornerstone of the scientific method, and helps avoid these obvious traps.


Short rests expend hit dice, which are a limited resource just like spell slots.
Rituals also expend a limited resource: time. Is ritual Cure Wounds better value than spending HD on a short rest? Yeah, sure. But it's not free.


Does giving everyone a resourceless full heal after every encounter 'break' the game?
It's not an automatic "heal to full" after each fight, you still have to take some time similar to taking a short rest. There will be times when this isn't an option (or not a good one, anyway). And at higher levels you'll "heal to full" in less time by just taking a short rest and spending HD. Ritual Cure Wounds would always be cast at 1st level, and is single target, requiring 10 minutes per casting. In a standard 5 man party, you would just barely be able to cast it on each party member once in the same time it would take to take a short rest. Is ritual Cure Wounds a big benefit to a party? Yes. But I think people are vastly overstating that benefit.


Does it change the game? Yes, especially when attrition of resources over multiple fights is a notable part of 5e of game design.
This is a valid point against ritual Cure Wounds. All it costs is time, which you don't always have to spare, but time is a "use it or lose it" resource, so it isn't expended and exhausted in the same way as other resources. It would definitely change the game, but to what degree I'm not sure. Again, I think people are overstating the effect it would have.

Which is why I'd like to hear from someone who has actually used it in their games to see how it actually worked out in practice. It doesn't really matter how something looks on paper, what really matters is how it performs during playtesting. Sometimes there's a pretty vast disconnect between theory and practice.