A Sorc who breaks the limits

[jaappleton]

Metamagic has always been fascinating to me, as it is as close to "breaking" the laws of D&D magic as possible.

Twinned, Quickened, Heightened, etc. Doing things not normally possible in magic. And some other classes can replicate parts of it (Enchanter Wizards essentially get to twin Enchantment spells eventually) as well as some magic items having similar effects.

But the Sorc gets just a little more to play with. ESPECIALLY if you factor in the long-overdue magic item support Sorcerers received in Tasha's. Bloodwell Vial, Shadowfell Shard, etc.

I need your help, Playground:

I want to outright break the laws as much as I possibly can. I want Hold Monster to take effect damn near no matter what the DM rolls. I want to push the limits and boundaries, and penalize enemy saving throws and actions as much as possible.

As a Sorcerer. I have a lot of love for Wizards, a fondness for Clerics and a soft spot for Druids.

But this needs to be as a Sorc.

This isn't about blasting. Enemies can always get more HP and higher AC. I have several party members outfitted for tanking and for dealing damage. Though, as to have that base covered, yes I'll likely take something like Fireball just to be on the safe side, but I'd MUCH prefer something like Rime's Binding Ice.

This is about control. I want the DM to borderline throw his hands up in defeat when his monsters are incapable of doing anything. I want to penalize enemy saving throws so much that the spells nearly auto-succeed, and to eliminate enemy actions.

Tasha's Mind Whip, Silvery Barbs, Rime's Binding Ice, this is the sort of stuff I want to play with. Quickening Sunbeam as a BA just to blast again immediately with my action to blind slews of enemies.

Starting at 11th level. Any race that can pass as Human. So Half Elf, Reborn, any Human Dragonmarked race, etc.

All backgrounds are available. Including Strixhaven and Fizban's. All spells are available. All subclasses are on the table, though I'd rather avoid Clockwork Soul.

Finally, I have 11 'points' to spend on magic items.

Very Rare is 7 points
Rare is 5 points
Uncommon is 3 points
Common is 1

What can we do?

[Master O'Laughs]

A strong case can be made for Custom Lineage as you can start off with an 18 in Charisma by taking a half feat. Most likely telekinetic, or fey/shadow touched.

Than an interesting option would be to take +2 Charisma with one of the ASI's to max out the attribute while taking Aberrant Dragonmark with the other. If you DM buys in, starting at lvl 11 you would have two chances to gain an epic boon.

If not, then +2 Charisma and inspiring leader to keep allies topped off on THP would be good. Or Metamagic adept to gain a few more choices and sorcery points. You could also make a case for eldritch adept to take the Invocation giving advantage on Constitution saving throws.

Getting free subtle on the spells on your list makes it hard not to pass over Aberrant Mind Sorcerer.

It seems the best item combo would be +2 Blood Vial and the Shadowfell shard to give higher DCs, more SPs, and disadvantage on STs to enemies when you use metamagic on your spells. Not sure what a good common item might be, but something flavorful is always nice.

[KorvinStarmast]

Finally, I have 11 'points' to spend on magic items.
Very Rare is 7 points
Rare is 5 points
Uncommon is 3 points
Common is 1

Coming in at 7 points is either Staff of Power or the book that allows you to boost your Charisma to 22. (Which ups your spell save DC again and makes saves harder).

That staff, let's dive into the details. (Your OP is a little too one trick pony, IMO...)

Staff, very rare (requires attunement by a sorcerer, warlock, or wizard)
This staff can be wielded as a magic quarterstaff that grants a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls
made with it.
Ok, you won't be in melee much, but those house cats are doomed! :smallbiggrin:

While holding it, you gain a +2 bonus to Armor Class, saving throws, and spell attack rolls.
Useful when you want to twin a cantrip like Mind Sliver (which meets your theme of hurting enemy saving throws).
The staff has 20 charges for the following properties. The staff regains 2d8 + 4 expended charges daily at dawn. If you expend the last charge, roll a d20. On a 1, the staff retains its +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls but loses all other properties. On a 20, the staff regains 1d8 + 2 charges.

Power Strike. When you hit with a melee attack using the staff, you can expend 1 charge to deal an
extra 1d6 force damage to the target. House cat corpses will litter your wake. :smallbiggrin:

Spells.
While holding this staff, you can use an action to expend 1 or more of its charges to cast one of the following spells from it, using your spell save DC and spell attack bonus: cone of cold (5 charges), fireball (5th-*‐‑level version, 5 charges), globe of invulnerability (6 charges), hold monster (5 charges), levitate (2 charges), lightning bolt (5th-*‐‑level version, 5 charges), magic missile (1 charge), ray of enfeeblement (1 charge), or wall of force (5 charges).
Snip retributive strike.

Wall of force ... there is no save against it. They just get wrapped in a 10' radius sphere unless they are so big they don't fit.
Hold Monster and levitate: disable opponents, twin mind sliver the round previous.
And sometimes, the party will need you to deal area damage, so you've got that just in case even though your focus is on debuffing opponents.
And globe of invulnerability will frustrate them when they are trying to get at you and you do not need to burn a precious level 6 slot on it.

Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
An immobile, faintly shimmering barrier springs into existence in a 10-*‐‑foot radius around you and remains for the duration. Any spell of 5th level or lower cast from outside the barrier can’t affect creatures or objects within it, even if the spell is cast using a higher level spell slot. Such a spell can target creatures and objects within the barrier, but the spell has no effect on them. Similarly, the area within the barrier is excluded from the areas affected by such spells.
Sometimes, the debuff is that their spells don't work.

Anyway, that's food for thought.

The book

Tome of Leadership and Influence
Wondrous item, very rare
This book contains guidelines for influencing and charming others, and its words are charged with magic. If you spend 48 hours over a period of 6 days or fewer studying the book’s contents and practicing its guidelines, your Charisma score increases by 2, as does your maximum for that score Your spell save DC if you max charisma and read the book is 6 + 8 + 4 = 18 at level 11, 19 at level 13, and 20 at level 17.

Using Bane or Mind Sliver on opponents begins to meet some of your objectives.

[Bobthewizard]

A strong case can be made for Custom Lineage as you can start off with an 18 in Charisma by taking a half feat. Most likely telekinetic, or fey/shadow touched.

Than an interesting option would be to take +2 Charisma with one of the ASI's to max out the attribute while taking Aberrant Dragonmark with the other. If you DM buys in, starting at lvl 11 you would have two chances to gain an epic boon.

If not, then +2 Charisma and inspiring leader to keep allies topped off on THP would be good. Or Metamagic adept to gain a few more choices and sorcery points. You could also make a case for eldritch adept to take the Invocation giving advantage on Constitution saving throws.

Getting free subtle on the spells on your list makes it hard not to pass over Aberrant Mind Sorcerer.

It seems the best item combo would be +2 Blood Vial and the Shadowfell shard to give higher DCs, more SPs, and disadvantage on STs to enemies when you use metamagic on your spells. Not sure what a good common item might be, but something flavorful is always nice.

I think this would be fun. Definitely aberrant mind. Using mind sliver, silvery barbs, command, suggestion and Tasha's mind whip as completely subtle spells is just amazing. Enemies abound and confusion are fun to use too when they don't know you cast it.

Take meta-magic adept for a couple extra points and two more metamagics. Then do everything you can to increase your save DC. Telekinetic feat would be fun to add here to even out an odd score.

[jaappleton]

I was curious about the Bloodwell Vial to increase my spell save DC, as well as its ability to generate 5 Sorcery points when I spend a hit die.

And normally Wither & Bloom is rather garbage, BUT it let's me spend a hit die...

[Master O'Laughs]

For magic items, if you are focusing on upping save DC, the highest you can get is a staff of power and blood well gem +1. That would get a total DC of 8+5+4+3=20.

If you go Blood well Gem +2 and the Shadowfell shard, you would have a saving throw DC of 19, but if you use meta magic on the spell, you can target that saving throw and cause disadvantage on the save.

[jaappleton]

For magic items, if you are focusing on upping save DC, the highest you can get is a staff of power and blood well gem +1. That would get a total DC of 8+5+4+3=20.

If you go Blood well Gem +2 and the Shadowfell shard, you would have a saving throw DC of 19, but if you use meta magic on the spell, you can target that saving throw and cause disadvantage on the save.

Imposing DisAdv whenever I use a Metamagic VS the benefits of Staff of Power.....

Tough call. I think I lean Staff here, especially because it has so many charges, freeing up slots for additional Sorcery points for Metamagic uses. And it nets so many staple spells for makes.

Plus, imposing DisAdv VS uses of Silvery Barbs...? Thoughts?

EDIT: I have to believe that down the road it's going to be easier to get my hands on a Rare than a Very Rare, and as such I think Staff of Power and Bloodwell Vial is the route to go here.

[Melphizard]

When it comes to control, nothing beats the psionic spells such as Tasha's mid whip or Raulothim's Psychic Lance.

The former is amazing when upcast and can be incredibly devistating to the enemy's ability to control the battlefield. Depending on the enemy, for example a giant, you can practically force them to lose a large portion of their damage potential by inflicting upon them an intelligence save, something which few monsters are good at making.

The latter, Raulothim's Psychic Lance, is one of my favorite spells that I use on my level 16 wizard quite frequently because of just how good it is. The save is difficult for your enemy and the penalty for failing the save is incredibly brutal. 7d6 psychic damage is decent for the added bonus of being able to incapacitate your enemy until the start of your next turn. My most recent use of this spell to do something great was using my divination wizard's portent to force an enemy spellcaster who had used Maze upon our fighter to fail their save. By incapacitating them they lost concentration and were helpless as my fighter, now free, threw multiple darts into the spellcaster.

So some fun things to note about these two psionic spells:
1. They are only verbal - By these spells only being verbal it means you can go staff + shield or Staff + wand and not have to worry about pulling out spell components
2. Safe damage choice - Unless you're fighting high level wizards with mindblank or constructs, psychic damage is a pretty safe type to use. Heck, even mindflayers are strangely not immune to psychic damage.
3. Great for multiple enemies - Tasha's Mind Whip has the upcasting bonus that I would seek of such a spell, allowing me to hit multiple targets and control the battlefield. Psychic Lance cannot strike multiple enemies but is a really good option to twin and double-incapacitate your foes.

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Magical item combos:

1 - The Archmage
(7): Staff of Power (A)
(3): +1 Bloodwell Vial (A)
(1): Clockwork amulet
Setup #1 is very good and gives you many more bonus spells to be at your disposal while also providing increase defenses

2 - The DC Spellslinger
(7): +3 Bloodwell Vial (A)
(3): Weapon of Warning (whatever weapon) (A)
(1): Dread Helm
With a 20 Cha and +4 prof you get a total of 8 + 5 (CHA) + 4 (Prof) + 3 (Vial) for a DC of 20. Not impossible to beat but hey a 20 DC is pretty good for most classes. Uses weapon of warning so you can hopefully go first and sling your spells before the enemies can react.

3- The Highest DC (Warning: Requires 1 level of cleric or paladin)
(7): +3 Bloodwell Vial (A)
(3): +1 Amulet of the Devout (A)
(1): Clockwork Amulet
So technically....... the amulet of the devout never specifies the DC increase it gives only applies to cleric and paladin spells.... sooooo with this you can get a DC of 21 as opposed to #2 having a mere 20. This is actually quite substantial as it rules out the possibility for an enemy with +0 to just get lucky and roll a 20.


In my opinion I would personally choose #1 as it's just super good to have a staff of power; however, if you wish to go for DC then #2 is your best choice. If you're willing to take a dip of cleric, #3 gets you 1 DC higher and would allow you to maybe to do some antics with channel divinity if you do 2 levels.


This concludes most of my ideas currently. There's a lot of other good stuff you could do such as abusing an uncommon item called the mizzium apparatus to use all sorcerer spells but that's outside the idea of DC. Most of all, my favorite spells for control would be:
Raulothim's Psychic Lance
Tasha's Mind Whip
Wall of Force (From Staff of Power)
Hypnotic Pattern

[jaappleton]

SNIP

NIIIIIIICE catch with the Clockwork Amulet! I hadn't found anything decent to pick with a Common, and a flat 10 is a very nice get when necessary.

[KorvinStarmast]

NIIIIIIICE catch with the Clockwork Amulet! I hadn't found anything decent to pick with a Common, and a flat 10 is a very nice get when necessary.
Once a day, but nice when it shows up.

[jaappleton]

Once a day, but nice when it shows up.

Still much more useful than almost any other Common, as far as any mechanical benefits.

Coolness factor? Cloak of Billowing all day, every day.

[Unoriginal]

Do you want a full sorcerer, or is multiclassing acceptable to break the limits of magic even more?

[jaappleton]

Do you want a full sorcerer, or is multiclassing acceptable to break the limits of magic even more?

I'd very much like to go full Sorc, but I'm absolutely willing to listen to what you've got in mind!

[ATHATH]

I'd very much like to go full Sorc, but I'm absolutely willing to listen to what you've got in mind!
If everyone in the party dips Divination Wizard 2, you can hit a critical mass where your number of portent lowrolls exceeds the number of legendary saves that a boss has, allowing you to guarantee at least one failed saving throw from the boss within your party's next 4 debuff spells. It's not really a Sorcerer thing, but it will induce the despair in your DM that you seem to be seeking.

Being able to guarantee failed saving throws vs. Suggestion is also funny, especially if you have someone who can use Silent Spell on it.

And if your party commits to being Divination Wizards instead of just dipping divwiz 2, you can drop like 4 BFC/debuff spells on every encounter to make every encounter induce despair.

[Khrysaes]

Two artificer can get you 2 more magic items.

The Enhanced Arcane Focus may stack with the bloodwell vial and/or amulet, I don't think it would stack with the staff.
Edit: Enhanced Arcane focus only affects spell attack

Otherwise, you can make two clockwork amulets

[Khrysaes]

To note, I was playing around with the +x spell save DC items from Tasha's on DND Beyond. It is broken add will ad the +x to your spell save regardless of your class, except the rod of the pact keeper.

[jaappleton]

To note, I was playing around with the +x spell save DC items from Tasha's on DND Beyond. It is broken add will ad the +x to your spell save regardless of your class, except the rod of the pact keeper.

....yeah this sounds like D&D Beyond XD

[KorvinStarmast]

Still much more useful than almost any other Common, as far as any mechanical benefits.

Coolness factor? Cloak of Billowing all day, every day. Yes to both. :smallsmile: