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Aquillion
2007-11-19, 06:59 PM
Some 'cursed item' this is:
This fine dust appears to be dust of appearance. If cast into the air, it causes those within a 20-foot spread to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Those failing a DC 15 Fortitude save take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC 15 Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.So... if you have an Unseen Servant, some summoned mook, or an ally who is immune to con damage run into a group of enemies and throw it in the air, they're stunned for 5d4 rounds with no save, no SR, and no way of resisting it whatsoever short of immunity to stunning? And if they have a low con score they might just die instantly?

Sure, it costs 2,400 gp, but that still seems awfully powerful. It's basically an "I win" card against anything that breathes and can be stunned... and as it's written, it isn't even completely clear that they have to breathe (although I'm not sure I see how they could choke otherwise.)

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-19, 07:03 PM
DC15 Fort save? Not much for the cost, its not really worth it since most things will make the save.

CasESenSITItiVE
2007-11-19, 07:03 PM
many cursed items are helpful if you know what they are. the same tactic can be applied for a scarab of instant death, for instance. the point is, the cursed item looks like a beneficial magical item. so when you try to use the scarab to give you bonuses, it kills you. simillarily, you try to use the dust to find invisible people (like it looks like it should do) you go in a bout of coughing and hacking, and maybe die

Kaelik
2007-11-19, 07:04 PM
DC15 Fort save? Not much for the cost, its not really worth it since most things will make the save.

Except the whole point is that if you are immune to stunning you effectively have an I win card against a single encounter. Because the stunning occurs even if they make the save.

Aquillion
2007-11-19, 07:05 PM
DC15 Fort save? Not much for the cost, its not really worth it since most things will make the save.Read the part I bolded. It isn't about the fort save for con damage, it's about the 5d4 rounds of stunning that they get even if they save.

If you can't kill a group of enemies in 5d4 rounds of near-complete helplessness, you have no business being anywhere near them in the first place.

EDIT: Whoops, ninja'ed. But you don't even need to be immune to stunning yourself as long as you can put 20 feet between you and the enemy -- there are lots of ways to get expandable mooks to run up and toss the bag in the air for you. Since it doesn't require an attack roll, even an Unseen Servant can do it.

Icewalker
2007-11-19, 07:07 PM
Huh. That's pretty damn effective.

Lord Tataraus
2007-11-19, 07:07 PM
Except the whole point is that if you are immune to stunning you effectively have an I win card against a single encounter. Because the stunning occurs even if they make the save.

Hm...that should teach me read things more closely....:smallredface:

deadseashoals
2007-11-19, 07:21 PM
It is pretty famous cheese, hobbled only by the fact that you're not supposed to be able to obtain these things on demand, and even if you have one, you're not supposed to know what it actually is.

Reijura
2007-11-19, 07:40 PM
hehehe, TPK by dust of sneezing and choking. I'd rewind that point just to see the look on their faces when suddenly stuff like that happens.


Extra evil points for the baddies to use it effectively on the players. go go suicidal creatures. :xykon:

greenknight
2007-11-19, 07:46 PM
Extra evil points for the baddies to use it effectively on the players. go go suicidal creatures. :xykon:

If they're undead, they can't be stunned, and they can't lose Constitution. In other words, they're perfect for using with this trick.

Kantolin
2007-11-19, 07:53 PM
Or, just have one of your party of assumably 4ish run into the group of enemies and just chuck it.

Sure, they'll also incapacitate themselves, but with 5d4 rounds for your entire party to go pound on the enemy, it's worth trading out use of a party member.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-19, 07:58 PM
Or, buy a necklace of Adaptness for Meatshield McLuhan and get them to do it. They'll have a higher chance of surviving than a summon (unless we talk crazy things like Balors or Solars), and will be unaffacted by it, so they'll be able to coup de grace like there's no tomorrow.


Also, Dust of sneezing and choking is a one off item, right?

Reijura
2007-11-19, 08:04 PM
Hmmm bonus DM points for converting this simple item to a plot item.


A'la "We have something useful for stopping some invaders, bunch of adventures sold us some of this dust, go forth and defeat with some sexy dust of doom!"

of course it'd be nice and balanced.:elan:

Mewtarthio
2007-11-19, 08:58 PM
many cursed items are helpful if you know what they are. the same tactic can be applied for a scarab of instant death, for instance. the point is, the cursed item looks like a beneficial magical item. so when you try to use the scarab to give you bonuses, it kills you. simillarily, you try to use the dust to find invisible people (like it looks like it should do) you go in a bout of coughing and hacking, and maybe die

How many cursed items are all that helpful? Sure, there's the old forced helm of opposite alignment trick (and, for CE people, the "strap a mace of blood into their hands and hang them out to dry" trick). The ring of clumsiness is pretty nice, since it's just a ridiculously cheap (500 gp) ring of feather fall with ASF and a Dex penalty, and the net of snaring really shouldn't even be a cursed item at all, but aside from those I don't see how you could use a cursed item in any way besides tricking someone else into holding one. Take the scarab of death, for instance. Barring some incredible feat of Sleight of Hand, you're only going to be able to use that offensively against opponents who are already helpless.

Chronos
2007-11-19, 09:34 PM
...you're not supposed to be able to obtain these things on demand, and even if you have one, you're not supposed to know what it actually is.Except that all the "cursed" items include a set of prerequisites, just like any other item, if for some reason you want to make them. And the prereqs for Dust of Sneezing aren't even all that tough to meet, if you are or have the help of a cleric or druid.

Aquillion
2007-11-19, 11:36 PM
Take the scarab of death, for instance. Barring some incredible feat of Sleight of Hand, you're only going to be able to use that offensively against opponents who are already helpless.It could be useful in some circumstances with slight of hand or by tricking people to pick it up, and it's certainly a cool way to assassinate someone... but the main problem with the Scarab of Death is its absurd 80,000 gp cost. For that much, you could get nine candles of invocation, summon nine 34-HD creatures, and beat the stuffing out of your enemy the old fashioned way.

Ganurath
2007-11-19, 11:42 PM
It is pretty famous cheese, hobbled only by the fact that you're not supposed to be able to obtain these things on demand, and even if you have one, you're not supposed to know what it actually is.Unless you craft it like a druid or cleric can. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsICA.html#dust-of-sneezing-and-chocking) In which case, it's pretty easy to dish out, especially if you're an evil cleric with undead minions.

*takes notes for his Ordained Warpriest build*

Aquillion
2007-11-19, 11:57 PM
How many cursed items are all that helpful?Oh, and for other cursed items...

...well, a Berserking Sword can occasionally be useful if you're very, very careful with it. It is a +2 greatsword, and a barbarian's rage gives nice bonuses.

There are a few items (eg Periapt of Foul Rotting) that have an oddly-worded "if any character keeps this item in their possession for more than 24 hours"-style text. I wonder what qualifies as possession? If you hide a Periapt of Foul Rotting somewhere in one of the Duke's mansions, does he start to rot, since it's technically in his possession?

A Medallion of Thought Projection lets you interrogate helpless prisoners quickly and painlessly, I guess.

And, um... that's all I can think of for core stuff. Some things you could force or trick others to use, but aside from the above (which might have clever ways or uses when you force them on people) it's all overpriced and underpowered even like that.

...well, a Palantír Crystal Hypnosis Ball could theoretically be useful if you're allied with the creature who it is linked to, but that's entirely a matter of DM fiat. It'd make an interesting goal for the players, though... they're hired to deliver a Palantír Crystal Hypnosis Ball to someone who their employer wants to dominate, and ensure that the victim looks into it long enough to be hypnotized.

A Bag of Devouring is nice against pickpockets and thieves, but you can't buy or make one, so.

Armor of Rage is really no worse than regular Full Plate, as long as you're not using your charisma.

goken04
2007-11-20, 12:04 AM
Unless you craft it like a druid or cleric can. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/magicItemsICA.html#dust-of-sneezing-and-chocking) In which case, it's pretty easy to dish out, especially if you're an evil cleric with undead minions.

*takes notes for his Ordained Warpriest build*

Mm... Artificer + Construct Delivery System = WIN

Dausuul
2007-11-20, 12:15 AM
It could be useful in some circumstances with slight of hand or by tricking people to pick it up, and it's certainly a cool way to assassinate someone... but the main problem with the Scarab of Death is its absurd 80,000 gp cost. For that much, you could get nine candles of invocation, summon nine 34-HD creatures, and beat the stuffing out of your enemy the old fashioned way.

Oh, come on. Are you seriously proposing to use the candle of invocation as a baseline for magic item balance?

The scarab is a bit pricey, but with some creative use you can make it into a truly deadly stealth weapon. Remember, it's a DC 25 Reflex save or die--and Reflex is the Achilles heel of a lot of otherwise big nasty monsters, including dragons. The best part is that you can re-use the scarab; it doesn't even have a daily use limit.

As for the dust of sneezing and choking... yeah, that's just bad. If you use it as intended, it's essentially a TPK, since there's no way the party will survive 5d4 rounds of stunning in the middle of a battle. If you figure out what it is and put it to work for you, it's a win button. Either way, poor item design.

Aquillion
2007-11-20, 01:35 AM
Oh, come on. Are you seriously proposing to use the candle of invocation as a baseline for magic item balance?

The scarab is a bit pricey, but with some creative use you can make it into a truly deadly stealth weapon. Remember, it's a DC 25 Reflex save or die--and Reflex is the Achilles heel of a lot of otherwise big nasty monsters, including dragons.Well, sure, the Candle of Invocation isn't a good baseline... but in any case, you're talking, what, 10% of your wealth by level at level 20? That's a pretty big investment for something so situational.

The main problem I had with the scarab, which I forgot to mention, is that its description doesn't make it clear if it's reusable after successfully killing someone (it's clear it turns back if it's removed before it gets inside, but it isn't clear whether that part is intended to cover both cases.) If it isn't reusable, it's obviously a bad investment for everything outside of theoretical exercises (or situations where your DM happens to give you one, I suppose... I wonder how hard it would be to sell one? Could you get 40,000 gp?)

Starbuck_II
2007-11-20, 11:21 AM
Some 'cursed item' this is:So... if you have an Unseen Servant, some summoned mook, or an ally who is immune to con damage run into a group of enemies and throw it in the air, they're stunned for 5d4 rounds with no save, no SR, and no way of resisting it whatsoever short of immunity to stunning? And if they have a low con score they might just die instantly?

Sure, it costs 2,400 gp, but that still seems awfully powerful. It's basically an "I win" card against anything that breathes and can be stunned... and as it's written, it isn't even completely clear that they have to breathe (although I'm not sure I see how they could choke otherwise.)

Actually, I always read it as:
Save and stunned or take Con damage.

See, those who make the save are stunned: those who fail are not stunned, but take Con damage.

Dausuul
2007-11-20, 11:30 AM
Actually, I always read it as:
Save and stunned or take Con damage.

See, those who make the save are stunned: those who fail are not stunned, but take Con damage.

So, what you're saying is that you should deliberately fail your saving throw? Because really, I can think of very few combats in which I'd prefer 5d4 rounds of stun to 2d6 points of Con damage. Most of my characters have Con better than 12 (after items are factored in), and at least with the Con damage I can teleport to safety, or Iron Heart Surge, or something. But 5d4 rounds of stun is a death sentence.

sikyon
2007-11-20, 11:53 AM
Actually, I always read it as:
Save and stunned or take Con damage.

See, those who make the save are stunned: those who fail are not stunned, but take Con damage.

I agree. It seems to say to me that if you pass the check, you are stunned. It doesn't say "whether or not" you pass. Therefore things with no con will be better off if they fail the save. Most characters should also choose to fail the save.

Roderick_BR
2007-11-20, 02:22 PM
Now that's a nasty trick indeed.
The idea of a cursed item is that it causes harm when used in a normal helpful way. It can, if the party survives and find out what it is, be used against others. Like finding a vial of poison disguised as a potion of cure. If you survive, you can use the potion as a normal potion.
In short, a cursed item is a weapon disguised as a boost item. A item like that is too cheap for it's effect.
And yeah, the creature must choose between stunning or con damage... that's really funny.

I'm going to buy my character some of these...

Chronos
2007-11-20, 02:45 PM
I dunno; the "nonetheless" there seems to suggest that things that fail their save are also stunned.

Therefore things with no con will be better off if they fail the save.Things with no con can't fail a Fort save, unless it's something that also affects items. But then again, I think that anything without a con would also be immune to stunning, so it doesn't matter either way for them.

Zim
2007-11-20, 03:02 PM
Finally, a use for my shiftless homunculus!

"Gir, go drop this bag of happy sparkle dust on those humans over there!"

"Yes, my master! Wheeeeeee!"

:smallbiggrin:

Idea Man
2007-11-20, 09:57 PM
I remember in old 2nd ed. a bag of this stuff contributed to a TPK. The one character who wasn't tied down with an opponent was moving to help an outmatched ally. There's a wall of fire in his way, but he's a fighter; the damage will be no big deal. To sneak up on the bad guy, he breaks out a magic item he was saving for a rainy day: dust of dissappearance.

Sure, being hit with sneezing and choking was hilarious, but to add insult to injury, the wall of fire roasted his corpse to a crisp.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-21, 12:13 AM
Some 'cursed item' this is:So... if you have an Unseen Servant, some summoned mook, or an ally who is immune to con damage run into a group of enemies and throw it in the air, they're stunned for 5d4 rounds with no save, no SR, and no way of resisting it whatsoever short of immunity to stunning? And if they have a low con score they might just die instantly?

Sure, it costs 2,400 gp, but that still seems awfully powerful. It's basically an "I win" card against anything that breathes and can be stunned... and as it's written, it isn't even completely clear that they have to breathe (although I'm not sure I see how they could choke otherwise.)

It looks like another person has discovered the dust! I banned this from my game right when I got the DMG ^^;;

Renegade Paladin
2007-11-21, 01:47 PM
It looks like another person has discovered the dust! I banned this from my game right when I got the DMG ^^;;
Indeed. The stuff is outright ridiculous; it seems that they put absolutely no thought into balancing cursed items at all, assuming that they'd never be put to a beneficial use.

On another subject, I responded to your PM of the 11th. Did you have something in mind, or did you just want to make sure that I'm actually me? :smalltongue: