a challenge

[JLandan]

So I have a character concept. He's a Phantom Rogue. He got that way by being a grave robber that robbed the wrong grave, and now he's haunted by the deceased he has robbed.

As a grave robber his tool/weapon of choice is a shovel. Which is not optimal for the Rogue's sneak attack.

The challenge: Is there a way to get sneak attack with a shovel?

[Abracadangit]

Challenge solved: refluff a shortsword or rapier as a shovel.

If we're going off RAW, in order for an attack to qualify as a sneak attack, it has to be made with a finesse weapon or a ranged weapon. So as long as you can get your DM to okay a finesse shovel (it's like... a really well-balanced shovel, or something), you're in the clear.

But if you can't get over the finesse/ranged hurdle, then that's sort of the end of it.

[BigRedJedi]

Directly, by RAW, not that immediately comes to mind.

You could ask a DM if 3 levels of Kensei Monk and making it a Kensei weapon would allow you to use sneak?

Alternately, ask if you could flavor a "shortsword" as having a short haft and sharp blade (e.g. trenching shovels like those carried by soldiers) and serve as both shovel and stabby weapon. (I would absolutely allow this at my table, though, I also allow Versatile weapons, when wielded with two hands, to use either STR or DEX, but not gain the finesse property.) edit: Ninja'd

For example (https://www.amazon.com/Military-Original-Issue-Entrenching-Shovel/dp/B004SOPJG4/ref=asc_df_B004SOPJG4/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=198081946947&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1479842256572357257&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9015566&hvtargid=pla-403695446807&psc=1)

[Wintermoot]

step one: convince DM to allow shovel as finesse weapon for sneak attacking.

step two: get a spade of collossal excavation

step three: COLLOSSALLY EXCAVATE SOME PUNKS!

[InvisibleBison]

Why would your character choose to fight with a shovel? A shovel is not a weapon. Are you not able to obtain an actual weapon for some reason?

[Naanomi]

Load the shovel into a heavy crossbow, shoot it at people?

[JackPhoenix]

There is, assuming you (or, well, your GM) is fine with 3rd party rules: Spheres of Might has a talent (http://spheres5e.wikidot.com/barroom#toc22) that allows you to treat improvised weapons as finesse weapons.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I mean aren't Kunai shovels anyway? haha!

[Imbalance]

So I have a character concept. He's a Phantom Rogue. He got that way by being a grave robber that robbed the wrong grave, and now he's haunted by the deceased he has robbed.

As a grave robber his tool/weapon of choice is a shovel. Which is not optimal for the Rogue's sneak attack.

The challenge: Is there a way to get sneak attack with a shovel?

Is a possessed (sentient) shovel out of the question? Depending on the haunting arrangement, there could be a hook there in that the sneak attack only works when the ghost wants you to kill.

[Gtdead]

Challenge solved: refluff a shortsword or rapier as a shovel.

This is the best answer IMO. It doesn't matter if the Shovel is supposed to be a 2 handed weapon or how it would interact with Sneak Attack as a concept. As long as it makes sense to you and you can envision it.

I refluff all my weapon users to use either Longbows or Longswords, even if they lack the proficiencies or they use feats like PAM, GWM and CE.

[Easy e]

Why would your character choose to fight with a shovel? A shovel is not a weapon. Are you not able to obtain an actual weapon for some reason?

Ask the Death Korp of Krieg! Ask the Shoveller from Mystery Men!

Shovels and entrenching tools have a long and "glorious" military history as weapons in CQC.

That said, as a DM why would I want to shut down a player from doing something thematic to their character by being a Rules Lawyer. It is not like Sneak Attack breaks the game or anything.... it is a core part of the game that many characters can use all ready.

Just chat with your GM about it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Challenge solved: refluff a shortsword or rapier as a shovel. I have an actual dagger / large survival knife that has 'shovel' as one of its core functions. I'll take a picture and add it to the thread when I get to where it is.

Fun historical tidbit: entrenching tools (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrenching_tool) (usually a foldable shovel) were used by soldiers during WW I and WW II with some frequency in hand-to-hand combat when positions were being overrun, or an overrun attempt was made.
But I don't think I'd call one of them a finesse weapon. :smallwink:

[elyktsorb]

Isn't a push knife basically a small spade shaped dagger? I'm pretty sure you can just have a spade shaped dagger that effectively doubles as a small shovel. If a dm has an issue with this, they are dum

[JLandan]

Why would your character choose to fight with a shovel? A shovel is not a weapon. Are you not able to obtain an actual weapon for some reason?

A shovel is what he uses for grave digging. The shovel is used to kill people in movies and TV all the time. I was thinking maybe as an improvised weapon? My DM may allow it, but he's gonna want some reason other than I want it.

[JLandan]

Isn't a push knife basically a small spade shaped dagger? I'm pretty sure you can just have a spade shaped dagger that effectively doubles as a small shovel. If a dm has an issue with this, they are dum

I hadn't thought of a spade-as-a-dagger idea. That might fly with my DM. The idea of a shovel-as-a-quarterstaff might too, maybe even shovel-as-an axe. Still the problem of sneak attack with those. But I suspect he might not go for shovel-as-a-shortsword refluff.

[Anymage]

You run into one stylistic problem and one RAW problem.

Stylistically, a shovel as a weapon is usually used to knock someone out from behind. It's used for one decisive surprise attack, not as a general weapon or particularly useful against anyone who's aware of you. As a regular use weapon, the closest I can think of stylistically is a club.

RAW, shovels used as a weapon tend to be used as bludgeons. I don't see any bludgeoning finesse weapons in the PHB.

Rogues do get rapier proficiency, which is a 1d8 one handed finesse weapon. A quarterstaff is 1d8 if used two handed. (Which deprives you of the opportunity to have an offhand weapon, when melee rogues would really like the chance to make a bonus action attack if their primary attack misses.) Mechanically it is not OP to ask if a quarterstaff used two handed can be used as a finesse weapon. Your DM may see it as silly instead of cool, in which case you really want to be on top of this before you try making the character work. But due to aforementioned not being OP, you're probably better off asking your DM than trying to find strict RAW justifications.

[Wintermoot]

A sneak attack is a sudden, unexpected attack that affects the attack-ee greater than an attack would if they saw it coming.

Generally, that's seen as a dagger strike to a vital organ or something similar.

But you know what else is a sneak attack in popular fiction? the old sap over the back of the head to knock people out.

You know what else you can hit people with on the back of the head to knock them out? A shovel.

Klung! *body hits the floor*

So use that image when you talk to your DM about how a shovel can, and should, be seen as a potential sneak attack weapon.

[BigRedJedi]

RAW, shovels used as a weapon tend to be used as bludgeons. I don't see any bludgeoning finesse weapons in the PHB.



Daredevil would like a word. LOL

[Ortho]

Why would your character choose to fight with a shovel? A shovel is not a weapon. Are you not able to obtain an actual weapon for some reason?

Counterargument: BWONG (https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070907)

[InvisibleBison]

Counterargument: BWONG (https://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20070907)

Okay, yes, if your campaign is going to have a comedic tone then it makes sense to do something silly like using a shovel as a weapon. But since D&D isn't a comedic game by default, and the OP didn't say anything about their game being a comedy, I assumed they were going for something more realistic.

[JackPhoenix]

Rogues do get rapier proficiency, which is a 1d8 one handed finesse weapon. A quarterstaff is 1d8 if used two handed. (Which deprives you of the opportunity to have an offhand weapon, when melee rogues would really like the chance to make a bonus action attack if their primary attack misses.) Mechanically it is not OP to ask if a quarterstaff used two handed can be used as a finesse weapon.

It's not mechanically OP (well, I wouldn't say OP, but clearly better than any other available option) until you realize PAM exists.