The Age Old Cantrip/Bonus Action Question

[Almus Rayne]

Alright so I know this question has probably been bouncing around and confusing people for years.

"You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of one action (PHB pg.202)"

So I already understand that it doesn't mean a Sorcerer can cast Scorching Ray as a 1st lvl spell as a standard action and then cast Ray of Frost as a cantrip in the same round. But what I want to ask is... if it doesn't mean that (above) then what DOES it mean you can do then?

[Tzardok]

I have literally no idea what you are talking about. Page 202 of the Player's Handbook covers the spells arcane lock, arcane mark, arcane sight, astral projection and atonement. None of them have any clauses about not casting non-cantrip spells.

[loky1109]

I think this isn't about 3.5, but 5.

[Tzardok]

Alright so I know this question has probably been bouncing around and confusing people for years.

"You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of one action (PHB pg.202)"

So I already understand that it doesn't mean a Sorcerer can cast Scorching Ray as a 1st lvl spell as a standard action and then cast Ray of Frost as a cantrip in the same round. But what I want to ask is... if it doesn't mean that (above) then what DOES it mean you can do then?

It means that if cast a spell that takes a bonus action, for example Banishing Smite, you can't cast another spell unless that spell is a cantrip. So if you were to cast Banishing Smite, you coulnd't cast a Scorching Ray in the same round, but you could cast a Ray of Frost. (I have no idea wether those spells are on the same list, and I don't care. It's just an example.)

[Almus Rayne]

Ah, I see. Thank you very much to you both. I was seeing the question posed elsewhere and I didn't understand but now it's clear. The original question also didn't specify if it was for 3.5 or 5e and I'm just an old 3.5 player which is probably the reason for the confusion. Thanks again.

[Burley]

This rule is mostly important for Sorcerers (or any caster that takes the feat that gives metamagic options). You can Quicken a spell of higher than cantrip level to a bonus action, but you can't use your standard action to cast another level 1+ spell.

The thematic reason could be that the Quicken metamagic is exhausting (which makes sense with it's higher sorcery point cost). Or, maybe it's dangerous or even impossible to channel that much magic in a short amount of time.

The mechanical reason is that spell casters have a lot of options to end encounters quickly and dropping multiple in one turn can make encounters trivial or unfun for other players. Plus, its hard to counter-balance encounters against action-economy-changers, and it's common for a DM to push too hard on the scale.

[sethdmichaels]

every spell takes exactly the time it says in the rule - usually an action, occasionally a bonus action. if you use a bonus-action leveled spell, you can't cast a leveled spell as your action. so in one turn, you can't Misty Step away from a crowd of opponents and then drop a Fireball on them, you can't cast Spiritual Weapon and then Spirit Guardians, you can't cast Spirit Shroud and then Inflict Wounds. if you use sorcery points to cast a regular-action leveled spell as a bonus action, you can't cast another leveled spell as your main action.

what you CAN do is Misty Step away from an opponent, then hit them with a Ray of Frost. you CAN cast Spiritual Weapon and then Toll the Dead. you CAN quicken a Fireball to be your bonus action with your sorcery points and then Firebolt one of the survivors.

but a cantrip isn't a bonus action just because it's a cantrip. it takes an action if that's what it says in the spell description.

[Psyren]

This rule is mostly important for Sorcerers (or any caster that takes the feat that gives metamagic options). You can Quicken a spell of higher than cantrip level to a bonus action, but you can't use your standard action to cast another level 1+ spell.

The thematic reason could be that the Quicken metamagic is exhausting (which makes sense with it's higher sorcery point cost). Or, maybe it's dangerous or even impossible to channel that much magic in a short amount of time.

The mechanical reason is that spell casters have a lot of options to end encounters quickly and dropping multiple in one turn can make encounters trivial or unfun for other players. Plus, its hard to counter-balance encounters against action-economy-changers, and it's common for a DM to push too hard on the scale.

It's important for everyone, nearly every spellcaster has bonus-action casting time spells on their list even without Quicken or sorcery points. When you use one of those, your action cannot be spent on another leveled spell.

For example, if your cleric uses their bonus action on Healing Word, they cannot then use their action on a leveled spell like Cure Wounds. They have to use a cantrip instead (like Sacred Flame) or do something else with their action entirely that isn't a spell, like attacking or dodging.

Note however that this rule only applies if you use your bonus action to cast a spell. If you have two regular actions somehow (e.g. an Eldritch Knight with action surge) then both can be used on leveled spells, provided your bonus action is not used to cast anything that turn. This rule also doesn't prevent you from using a reaction leveled spell like feather fall - after your turn is over.

[Mastikator]

The exact wording of the rule actually means that you can't use both a bonus action and an action to cast two spells on the same turn. But if you happen to have two actions then you can cast two spells as long as both are used using an action.




Bonus Action

A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/spellcasting#CastingaSpell

Bonus action leveled spells block action leveled spells. So you can't healing word AND cure wounds on the same turn. BUT an eldricht knight can cast 2 spells on the same turn IF the use action surge to do so and cast 2 spells that use an action. For example fireball, then action surge and fireball again.

This is a cool thing that only fighters can do.

[Greywander]

Huh, I hadn't caught this before, I thought the restriction only applied to spells you cast using your action, but the way it seems to be worded would prevent reaction casting, too. So, for example, if you quicken Fireball and get Counterspelled, you wouldn't be able to cast Counterspell yourself, because it's still the same turn.

I feel like "only one leveled spell per turn" would have been a much simpler rule, though it would have nerfed things like Action Surge.

[Tanarii]

Also important to note the restriction on spells cast on your turn applies if the bonus action spell is a cantrip. Mostly that's important to Druids or other casting Shillelagh. Technically also applies to Sorcs casting a quickened cantrip.

Things you can do on your turn:
Cast any spell as a bonus action + cast any number of cantrips as action(s) or a reaction.
Not cast a bonus action spell + cast any number of level 1+ spells as action(s) or a reaction.

Things you can't do on your turn:
Cast any spell as a bonus action + cast a level 1+ spell as an action or reaction.

[Chronos]

There's also no restriction on uses of your action or bonus action that aren't casting a spell. That includes using many spells after they're cast: For instance, on round 1 you could cast a quickened Eyebite and a cantrip, and then on round 2 you could use an action to use Eyebite again, and then cast a quickened Fireball.

[greenstone]

"(Non-spell)" means doing something other than Cast a Spell.

Allowed during your Turn (no Action Surge)
Action Bonus Action Reaction
Cantrip Any level (Non-spell)
Cantrip (Non-spell) Cantrip
Cantrip (Non-spell) Level 1+
Cantrip (Non-spell) (Non-spell)
Level 1+ (Non-spell) Cantrip
Level 1+ (Non-spell) Level 1+
Level 1+ (Non-spell) (Non-spell)
(Non-spell) Any level (Non-spell)
(Non-spell) (Non-spell) Cantrip
(Non-spell) (Non-spell) Level 1+


Allowed during your Turn (Action Surge)
2 Actions Bonus Action Reaction
Two Cantrips Any level (Non-spell)
Two Cantrips (Non-spell) Cantrip
Two Cantrips (Non-spell) Level 1+
Two Cantrips (Non-spell) (Non-spell)
Cantrip and Level 1+ (Non-spell) Cantrip
Cantrip and Level 1+ (Non-spell) Level 1+
Cantrip and Level 1+ (Non-spell) (Non-spell)
Two Level 1+ (Non-spell) Cantrip
Two Level 1+ (Non-spell) Level 1+
Two Level 1+ (Non-spell) (Non-spell)


Disallowed
Anything not in the lists above.

Notes
I don't think there are any cantrips with a casting time of 1 reaction, but I included them for completeness.

[Pex]

There's also no restriction on uses of your action or bonus action that aren't casting a spell. That includes using many spells after they're cast: For instance, on round 1 you could cast a quickened Eyebite and a cantrip, and then on round 2 you could use an action to use Eyebite again, and then cast a quickened Fireball.

Similarly, a cleric in round 1 can cast Spiritual Weapon then Toll The Dead. In round 2 use his bonus action to attack with the Spiritual Weapon then cast Spirit Guardians. Alternatively Round 2 cast Guiding Bolt, and if he hit use the Advantage gained to attack with the Spiritual Weapon.

Also, when casting two spells, while the Bonus Spell can be anything and the Action Spell must be a Cantrip, you can cast them in either order. Bonus Spell then Cantrip or Cantrip then Bonus Spell. The order can matter in tactics.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Huh, I hadn't caught this before, I thought the restriction only applied to spells you cast using your action, but the way it seems to be worded would prevent reaction casting, too. So, for example, if you quicken Fireball and get Counterspelled, you wouldn't be able to cast Counterspell yourself, because it's still the same turn.

I feel like "only one leveled spell per turn" would have been a much simpler rule, though it would have nerfed things like Action Surge.

I don't think the rule is all that complex, I feel like it's just not as emphasized as it should be. Separating that single sentence into its own paragraph would have made a world of difference, for such a crucial rule for spellcasting it's kind of just thrown in.

Repetition is your friend as well, a small textbox to the side of "Actions in Combat - Spellcasting" could have easily included these unique rules for bonus action spellcasting... which is just a tad ironic as this section lists every casting time except bonus action.

Honestly formatting and readability might be one of the most essential improvements I hope we see in the upcoming edition.

[Pex]

In actual play I have found sometimes players and even DMs Honest True forget the rule. No one does Fireball Quicken Fireball, but it comes up a lot in Bonus Action spells. The cleric player wants to help and is more than happy to cast Healing Word on a party member but then also wants to cast Guiding Bolt or Bless. A wizard will cast Misty Step to get out of melee then cast Scorching Ray. The player is caught up in the moment to do something Cool, not win D&D.

I know I'm all rules lawyer on this. I will mention it, not specifically to be a stickler on this but to help everyone not to make it a habit because one day someone will do Fireball Quicken Fireball. Fortunately most of the time everyone acknowledges it, and the stated actions can be modified. Everyone is hunky dory. Only once did I encounter hostility when the player wanted to cast Chromatic Orb Quicken Chromatic Orb and dismissed me insisting he can do it. I'm sure the DM didn't know the rule, so it happened.

[sethdmichaels]

the way it seems to be worded would prevent reaction casting, too.

so you couldn't Misty Step as a BA and then later cast Shield as a Reaction? i hadn't seen it ruled that way at the table. i thought the BA spell limit only affected your Action proper.

[ProsecutorGodot]

so you couldn't Misty Step as a BA and then later cast Shield as a Reaction? i hadn't seen it ruled that way at the table. i thought the BA spell limit only affected your Action proper.

It's hard to cast a reaction spell on your own turn so the limitation often doesn't come up for reactions. It's really only impactful when having a bonus action spell counterspelled or if you plan to intentionally do something that would trigger something like Shield or Absorb Elements.

[Tanarii]

In actual play I have found sometimes players and even DMs Honest True forget the rule. No one does Fireball Quicken Fireball, but it comes up a lot in Bonus Action spells. The cleric player wants to help and is more than happy to cast Healing Word on a party member but then also wants to cast Guiding Bolt or Bless. A wizard will cast Misty Step to get out of melee then cast Scorching Ray. The player is caught up in the moment to do something Cool, not win D&D.
Agreed. IMO Healing Word and Misty Step are the two biggest offenders for both players and DMs failing to remember / not understanding this rule, other than Spiritual Weapon on round one.


so you couldn't Misty Step as a BA and then later cast Shield as a Reaction? i hadn't seen it ruled that way at the table. i thought the BA spell limit only affected your Action proper.The reaction has to be on your turn.

That usually means preventing Counterspelling a counterspell of your spell.

[Psyren]

so you couldn't Misty Step as a BA and then later cast Shield as a Reaction? i hadn't seen it ruled that way at the table. i thought the BA spell limit only affected your Action proper.

It only affects a reaction on your turn. So if you cast a bonus action spell, then moved away from a opponent, you could not cast Shield as a reaction to protect yourself from their AoO, as your turn hasn't ended yet. But if you cast a bonus action spell and then end your turn, and someone attacks you on THEIR turn, you can cast Shield to protect yourself then.

[sethdmichaels]

It only affects a reaction on your turn.

thanks! that's a good caveat. doing my first DM session with totally new players on Friday and want to make sure i have all my basics straight in language i can explain to others!

[Kane0]

I feel like "only one leveled spell per turn" would have been a much simpler rule, though it would have nerfed things like Action Surge.

Thats what i've run for a few years, yes its much simpler and end result is largely the same.

[Foolwise]

you CAN quicken a Fireball to be your bonus action with your sorcery points and then Firebolt one of the survivors.

My god, that's dark.

[Kane0]

My god, that's dark.

Nah, he didnt twin the firebolt or empower either one