Shapechange Spell

[MykulFrost]

Currently I am running a campaign wherein one of my players has access to the shapechange spell. I am trying to see if anyone here has a link to or information about how to adjudicate how and when he may adapt new forms.

[Jervis]

You can become any creature you're familiar with, changing form up to once each round as a free action.

Not much ambiguity here

[Elves]

Although you'd be well within the bounds of reasonableness to houserule away the changing forms part.

[Darg]

Remember that limited use abilities require rest to acquire. They can't just shapeshift into an efreeti and then just hand out wishes.

I personally rule that the character has to have seen the creature in person.

[Jack_Simth]

Remember that limited use abilities require rest to acquire. They can't just shapeshift into an efreeti and then just hand out wishes.

I personally rule that the character has to have seen the creature in person.

Can't anyway. An Efreeti's ability to hand out Wishes is spell-like, not Ex or Su.

But yes, the poorly-defined "familiar" clause is a reasonable-ish limiter already.

[Jervis]

Although you'd be well within the bounds of reasonableness to houserule away the changing forms part.

Honestly at that point just ban the spell. The entire point is that you can swap around forms for the duration

[Aracor]

Now, it WOULD be completely reasonable to rule that changing forms is a swift action rather than a free action, considering that the spell was written before Swift actions actually existed.

[Feantar]

Now, it WOULD be completely reasonable to rule that changing forms is a swift action rather than a free action, considering that the spell was written before Swift actions actually existed.

Well, it was updated in the 3.5 PHB, so I am assuming they could've changed it if they wanted.

As to the forms, maybe have them roll a knowledge check DC 10+ form HD (which means max dc should be 35). If they get it, they are familiar.

[Aracor]

Well, it was updated in the 3.5 PHB, so I am assuming they could've changed it if they wanted.

As to the forms, maybe have them roll a knowledge check DC 10+ form HD (which means max dc should be 35). If they get it, they are familiar.

You misunderstand me. The Swift action did not exist at the beginning of 3.5, nor did the Immediate action. That's why Feather Fall and Quicken Spell still say they take a free action in the 3.5 PHB. It was first introduced in the Miniatures Handbook in October 2003, months after the Player's Handbook. And it wasn't really codified into the official 3.5 game until the Expanded Psionics Handbook in 2004.

[Feantar]

You misunderstand me. The Swift action did not exist at the beginning of 3.5, nor did the Immediate action. That's why Feather Fall and Quicken Spell still say they take a free action in the 3.5 PHB. It was first introduced in the Miniatures Handbook in October 2003, months after the Player's Handbook. And it wasn't really codified into the official 3.5 game until the Expanded Psionics Handbook in 2004.

I didn't know that! Yeah, that explains much...

[Elves]

Honestly at that point just ban the spell. The entire point is that you can swap around forms for the duration

The point is accessing far more powerful forms than polymorph and getting their ex and su abilities

[Crake]

The point is accessing far more powerful forms than polymorph and getting their ex and su abilities

That is the point in today's optimization culture, yes, back in the day, the big appeal of the shapechange spell was the fact that it allowed you to adjust your form to the circumstance, not accessing potentially game breaking ex and su abilities (of which most of the major ones didn't even really exist at the time). Having access to a single set of Ex/Su abilities does not a 9th level spell make. ESPECIALLY if you also go by this ruling:


Remember that limited use abilities require rest to acquire. They can't just shapeshift into an efreeti and then just hand out wishes.

I personally rule that the character has to have seen the creature in person.

This, by the way, is not actually correct at all. Per day (or other time limitation) abilities do not actually require a rest to regain. They actually check the last time the ability was used, and if that falls within the time limitation, then the ability cannot be used. So for example, if you have a 1/day ability, and you use it at midday, you can't use it again until midday the next day. Your rest overnight doesn't recharge the ability, it has to wait a full 24 hours before it can be used again:


How Often Can Spell-Like Abilities Be Used?

Most spell-like abilities have a daily use limit (most often once a day or three times a day). A spell-like ability that is usable at will has no use limit at all, and the creature can use it as often as it likes; however, an at will ability still requires a standard action to use unless its description specifically says otherwise.

As noted earlier, spell-like abilities with daily use limits become available to the creature automatically each day. The creature doesn't need to rest, study, or prepare for them in any way. In this case, a "day" is any contiguous period of 24 hours. There is no set "recharge" time for a spell-like ability. Instead, the creature can use the ability a set number of times in any given period of 24 hours. For example, a lillend can use its darkness spell-like ability three times a day. The lillend cannot create three darkness effects at 11 PM one day, then create three more two hours later (at 1 AM the next day). Instead, the lillend can use darkness up to three times during any period of 24 consecutive hours. If she creates darkness at 11 PM on a given day, she can use the ability only twice more during the following 24 hours. Let's say she uses the power again at 1 AM the next day and again at 7 AM that same day. She has exhausted her daily limit on her darkness ability at 7 AM. The earliest she can use the ability again is 11 PM on the second day, when she can use the power only once (because she already has used the power twice during the preceding 24 hours). If she doesn't use the power at all after 7 AM the second day, the earliest that she will have three uses available again will be 7 AM on the third day.

Took me a while to find this, because I swear it was in the books somewhere at some point, but no, apparently it's just in a rules of the game article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040504a) written by Skip Williams. The only other information I have that speaks about actual rules on when "per day" abilities recharge is a sage response, which basically says "it's undefined, but here's some suggestions".

[Elves]

That is the point in today's optimization culture, yes, back in the day, the big appeal of the shapechange spell was the fact that it allowed you to adjust your form to the circumstance, not accessing potentially game breaking ex and su abilities (of which most of the major ones didn't even really exist at the time). Having access to a single set of Ex/Su abilities does not a 9th level spell make. ESPECIALLY if you also go by this ruling:
It has a HD limit of 25 vs polymorph's 14 and grants more of the creature's abilities (and some of the strongest forms, like solar, pit fiend, gloom, ha-naga, dread wraith and iron golem are all Core). Take away the form changing and it's still one of the best 9th level spells, just not game-breakingly insane.

[MykulFrost]

I appreciate all the comments. What I am trying to do is see if there are any rulings as to what constitutes "familiarity" with a new creature and if anyone has any suggestions as to how to handle/adjudicate any rules toward that end.

[Darg]

That is the point in today's optimization culture, yes, back in the day, the big appeal of the shapechange spell was the fact that it allowed you to adjust your form to the circumstance, not accessing potentially game breaking ex and su abilities (of which most of the major ones didn't even really exist at the time). Having access to a single set of Ex/Su abilities does not a 9th level spell make. ESPECIALLY if you also go by this ruling:



This, by the way, is not actually correct at all. Per day (or other time limitation) abilities do not actually require a rest to regain. They actually check the last time the ability was used, and if that falls within the time limitation, then the ability cannot be used. So for example, if you have a 1/day ability, and you use it at midday, you can't use it again until midday the next day. Your rest overnight doesn't recharge the ability, it has to wait a full 24 hours before it can be used again:



Took me a while to find this, because I swear it was in the books somewhere at some point, but no, apparently it's just in a rules of the game article (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040504a) written by Skip Williams. The only other information I have that speaks about actual rules on when "per day" abilities recharge is a sage response, which basically says "it's undefined, but here's some suggestions".

While that article has merit, the PHB calls out that SLAs function just like spells. We use the "daily/longer limits are not usable until full rest or 24 hours is achieved" interpretation unless it is fueled by a body part like shooting spines. It largely cuts back on a lot of abuse shapechange can do. I personally haven't had any issues with changing forms once per round, then again we don't actively try to break the game in a way that steals fun from others.

[Duke of Urrel]

I appreciate all the comments. What I am trying to do is see if there are any rulings as to what constitutes "familiarity" with a new creature and if anyone has any suggestions as to how to handle/adjudicate any rules toward that end.

You can always impose the house rule that a character needs some Knowledge skill (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm) in order to be familiar with creatures that they have never encountered. The Knowledge DC might be 10 plus the creature's racial Hit Dice, plus or minus a modifier if the creature is very common or extremely rare.

Aberration or Ooze type: Knowledge of Dungeoneering
Construct, Dragon, or Magical Beast type: Knowledge of Arcana
Humanoid type: Local Knowledge
Animal, Fey, Giant, Monstrous Humanoid, Plant, or Vermin type: Knowledge of Nature
Undead type: Knowledge of Religion
Elemental or Outsider type: Knowledge of the Planes

Another thing to do with the Shapechange spell is to think not of how to weaken it, but how to provide a challenge for a character with this spell. What about an encounter with a phasm (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm) or two?

[MykulFrost]

You can always impose the house rule that a character needs some Knowledge skill (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm) in order to be familiar with creatures that they have never encountered. The Knowledge DC might be 10 plus the creature's racial Hit Dice, plus or minus a modifier if the creature is very common or extremely rare.

Aberration or Ooze type: Knowledge of Dungeoneering
Construct, Dragon, or Magical Beast type: Knowledge of Arcana
Humanoid type: Local Knowledge
Animal, Fey, Giant, Monstrous Humanoid, Plant, or Vermin type: Knowledge of Nature
Undead type: Knowledge of Religion
Elemental or Outsider type: Knowledge of the Planes

Another thing to do with the Shapechange spell is to think not of how to weaken it, but how to provide a challenge for a character with this spell. What about an encounter with a phasm (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/phasm.htm) or two?

Much appreciated. Thank you.

[Crake]

While that article has merit, the PHB calls out that SLAs function just like spells. We use the "daily/longer limits are not usable until full rest or 24 hours is achieved" interpretation unless it is fueled by a body part like shooting spines. It largely cuts back on a lot of abuse shapechange can do. I personally haven't had any issues with changing forms once per round, then again we don't actively try to break the game in a way that steals fun from others.

Well, keep in mind, not all spells actually require resting to recharge, so this isn't very consistent. Divine spellcasters don't need to rest at all to regain their daily spells, they simply get them back at a set time of day by praying.

[MykulFrost]

Only One check per specimen. Overall damage to the body, and its subsequent usability, is subject to DM’s discretion.
Combat: (HD/5+2-per group). 21-25 HD=7rnds / 16-20 HD=6rnds / 11-15 HD=5rnds / 6-10 HD=4rnds / 1-5 HD=3rnds. This represents the minimum number of combat rounds to get the bonus.
Each round of combat equals a -1 to the check DC with a maximum of -10 for a full minute of combat. Insta-kills grant no bonus.
Corpse Study: Having a whole (relatively) corpse grants a bonus of -10 to the check DC for the first day (8hours) of study. A bonus of -1 for each day (4hours), to a maximum of -10 for 10 more days of study, to the check DC.
Familiarity Check: Base DC = 30 + 2xHD
Checks:Planar-Extraplanar Creatures / Dungeoneering-Aberrations & Oozes / Religion-Undead / Arcana-Dragons & Magical Beasts / Engineering-Constructs / Nature-Animals, Plants, Vermin, Giants, Fey & Monstrous Humanoids / Local-Humanoids
Disalloweds: Unique creatures. Anti-magic ability. Shapechange ability.


This is what me and some of my players came up with for familiarity of creatures for Shapechange.
Any comments appreciated.

[Fizban]

That is the point in today's optimization culture, yes, back in the day, the big appeal of the shapechange spell was the fact that it allowed you to adjust your form to the circumstance, not accessing potentially game breaking ex and su abilities (of which most of the major ones didn't even really exist at the time). Having access to a single set of Ex/Su abilities does not a 9th level spell make. ESPECIALLY if you also go by this ruling:
If you check the original 3.0 Polymorph Self, you'll find that it already had this multi-form ability. Which makes it clear that that was not the initial point of Shapechange. They may have left it in when it was removed from Polymorph Self because "eh it's 9th level and turning into a monster stops you from using your equipment or casting spells," but then they also changed it so you could keep most of your gear and clearly didn't playtest serious use of shapeshifting magic.


I appreciate all the comments. What I am trying to do is see if there are any rulings as to what constitutes "familiarity" with a new creature and if anyone has any suggestions as to how to handle/adjudicate any rules toward that end.
I'm fairly certain the only thing close to an official word I've read was specifically in regards to Wild Shape, and said a creature you've fought in combat is definitely familiar (while pretty obviously refusing to say anything more)- which I'm also pretty sure I re-read recently, though I couldn't tell you where. It's not in the 3.0 or 3.5 FAQs under "familiar" or "wild shape," or the 3.0 Wild Shape or Polymorph descriptions, I haven't been in Masters of the Wild and it doesn't seem to be there either. It might have been a random aside in one of the articles I randomly re-read (speaking of which, I'm fairly certain there's one that makes a mention of the focus item for Shapechange, but that's not one I recently re-read and I don't think it's actually about Shapechange).

The spot/disguise familiarity skill modifiers start at "recognizes on sight." Familiars the class feature have a line that says the master has the same "link" to a creature that the familiar does for spells that care about that sort of thing. The Locate Creature spell says you have to have seen the creature up close (30' or less). The Locate Object spell requires you to have observed the target firsthand, while Discern Location requires you to have seen a creature or touched an object. The Scrying and Nightmare spells define familiar as "you know the subject well." Teleport says a place that is very familiar is "somewhere you've been often and feel at home," while seeing a place multiple times only makes it count as "seen casually" (with "studied carefully" in-between the two).

I think the stark lack of definition shows a clear intent that the devs didn't want to define it, leaving "familiarity" as a DM-defined metric so it can be left to fit the table- something they did in multiple places but often refused to admit when pressed by people that expected the rules to define every little thing. The hints from other spells suggest that to count as familiar with a creature you need to have seen it at close range, in person, preferably multiple times. Wherever it came from, I would count "in-combat" as well, since if you're going to turn into something in a way that grants access to its combat abilities, you should need to know those abilities.

The in-combat requirement also specifically allows the DM an out for having certain creatures "exist" without giving the players access to them- just like the bloodthirsty pokemon trainer that is the Animate Dead user who can be cut off by only letting the players have bodies you deem acceptable for their use, you simply never let them fight anything you don't want them to turn into. Even if it exists and they attack it, if it flees without fighting they cannot claim to have seen it "in combat." This actually creates a "list of allowed forms" written by the DM and further customized to each individual character. These are annoying restrictions for the DM, but if you refuse to remove or limit the spells in other ways, you can do so this way.

Faffing about with "knowledge" checks is the same as saying they can turn into whatever they want. Because if it has an attainable DC, they will build specifically to attain it. It adds a whole bunch of extra rolling and tracking to what is really just a simple yes/no question, which will be immediately skipped for creatures that don't inspire argument, and then held up as gospel (and hold up the game with rolling) whenever something the DM might regret allowing appears. It's a farce, a smokescreen, extra layers of work to pretend that something that's supposed to be up to the DM shouldn't be, and I cannot recommend strongly enough against it. It's like saying you can only take Incantatrix if you make an in-universe knowledge check, gee I wonder what's going to happen?

[Darg]

Knowledge checks about a creature are literally 10 + HD for a bit of information. For every 5 you beat the DC you get another piece of information. I'd say familiar means you don't need a knowledge check to know information. A knowledge check for total familiarity could probably be 100+ with all the bits of information there are about creatures.

[JNAProductions]

Knowledge checks about a creature are literally 10 + HD for a bit of information. For every 5 you beat the DC you get another piece of information. I'd say familiar means you don't need a knowledge check to know information. A knowledge check for total familiarity could probably be 100+ with all the bits of information there are about creatures.

So what’s the circumstance bonus needed to transform into a cat?

It’s better to ban or houserule the spell outright, rather than passive-aggressively nerfing it in various ways.

[icefractal]

The base 10+HD works, although it effectively just means you need to put ranks in those Knowledge skills, because that's an easy DC by 17th+ level.

MykulFrost's version (30+2*HD, reduced with a specimen) is reasonably balanced for a high-op game (finally something to do with that +75 knowledge check), but probably too difficult if they aren't. To turn into a 20 HD creature at 20th level, it's DC 70. Even with 10+ rounds in combat and 10+ days studying a corpse of one, it's still DC 40, meaning that if you're a non-Int-based caster it may be pretty tricky to make that. Someone with full ranks and Int 14 but no specific skill-boosting buffs has +25, only a 30% chance to succeed (0% if they only did the study or the combat).

Requiring direct observation (or study of a corpse) can be an interesting method if you want one of the campaign's goals to be that kind of exploration / knowledge-gathering, and you're running it in a flexible / sandbox enough way that PCs can take time to pursue their own goals like that. But if you're running a mostly-linear game where that's not practical, then it's similar to just stealth-banning the spell - or at least nerfing it to the point where it should be lower than 9th level.

Like, nothing wrong with a utility spell where you mainly use to shift to common animals or other humans for disguise and mobility purposes, but that's not a 9th-level spell.

[MykulFrost]

Thanks for all the comments. Me and my players are currently working on a bit of a rework of it. Will post it soon.

[Darg]

So what’s the circumstance bonus needed to transform into a cat?

It’s better to ban or houserule the spell outright, rather than passive-aggressively nerfing it in various ways.

You call it a nerf, but others believe it never had that capability in the first place.

[JNAProductions]

You call it a nerf, but others believe it never had that capability in the first place.

…

To turn into a cat? That’s achievable by a level five Druid. (Well, for a Small or Medium cat.) Or a level one tibbit.
If a 9th level spell like Shapechange can’t do that, it’s utter garbage.

[Darg]

…

To turn into a cat? That’s achievable by a level five Druid. (Well, for a Small or Medium cat.) Or a level one tibbit.
If a 9th level spell like Shapechange can’t do that, it’s utter garbage.

If a character doesn't know what a cat even looks like, how is that even remotely close to "familiar"? Cats are so common you definitely ran across one on your travels if you ever visited a city.

Saying that just because some forms aren't accessible because you haven't come across them in your adventures by level 17-18 makes shapechange utter garbage implies you only ever fight garbage opponents and I question the need for shapechange to be any better.

[JNAProductions]

If a character doesn't know what a cat even looks like, how is that even remotely close to "familiar"? Cats are so common you definitely ran across one on your travels if you ever visited a city.

Saying that just because some forms aren't accessible because you haven't come across them in your adventures by level 17-18 makes shapechange utter garbage implies you only ever fight garbage opponents and I question the need for shapechange to be any better.

I was responding to the post that would require a DC 70+ check for even 1 HD creatures.

Such as a cat.

[MykulFrost]

Only One check per specimen. Overall damage to the body, and its subsequent usability, is subject to DM’s discretion.


Study During Combat:Combat lasting more than 2 rounds grants a -5 bonus to the check DC.


Corpse Study: Having a whole (relatively) corpse grants a bonus of -10 to the check DC for the first day (8 hours) of study. A bonus of -1 for each day (4 hours), to a maximum of -10 for 10 more days of study, for a total possible bonus of -20 to the DC.
This bonus lasts until the check is made, or up to 11 days.


Familiarity Check: Base DC = 30 + 2xHD (e.g. lvl 25 creature = DC 80 → 30 + 50)
Checks:
Planar: Extraplanar Creatures
Dungeoneering: Aberrations & Oozes
Religion: Undead
Arcana: Dragons & Magical Beasts
Engineering: Constructs
Nature: Animals, Plants, Vermin, Giants, Fey & Monstrous Humanoids
Local: Humanoids


Feats/Features that grant a -2 bonus to check:
Transmutation school specialization
Sudden Shift class feature (PHB II)
Spell Focus (Trans) feat
Greater Spell Focus (Trans) feat
Epic Spell Focus (Trans) feat


Disalloweds: Unique creatures. Anti-magic ability. Shapechange ability.

Bonuses: Yes they stack. A total of -35 to the DC is possible.

[additional changes may be pending]

This is a rework of the idea so far. Any comments as to its workability/usefulness are appreciated.

[Gnaeus]

I think those DCs are absurdly high. Ludicrously high. I’d drop the base DC by at least 10. If you dissected one, auto success. If you ever saw one +10. Familiar with shouldn’t mean studied in detail.

It actually isn’t too terrible for wizards. But brutal for sorcerers, Druids, and others who have access to the spell.

[JNAProductions]

Only One check per specimen. Overall damage to the body, and its subsequent usability, is subject to DM’s discretion.


Study During Combat:Combat lasting more than 2 rounds grants a -5 bonus to the check DC.


Corpse Study: Having a whole (relatively) corpse grants a bonus of -10 to the check DC for the first day (8 hours) of study. A bonus of -1 for each day (4 hours), to a maximum of -10 for 10 more days of study, for a total possible bonus of -20 to the DC.
This bonus lasts until the check is made, or up to 11 days.


Familiarity Check: Base DC = 30 + 2xHD (e.g. lvl 25 creature = DC 80 → 30 + 50)
Checks:
Planar: Extraplanar Creatures
Dungeoneering: Aberrations & Oozes
Religion: Undead
Arcana: Dragons & Magical Beasts
Engineering: Constructs
Nature: Animals, Plants, Vermin, Giants, Fey & Monstrous Humanoids
Local: Humanoids


Feats/Features that grant a -2 bonus to check:
Transmutation school specialization
Sudden Shift class feature (PHB II)
Spell Focus (Trans) feat
Greater Spell Focus (Trans) feat
Epic Spell Focus (Trans) feat


Disalloweds: Unique creatures. Anti-magic ability. Shapechange ability.

Bonuses: Yes they stack. A total of -35 to the DC is possible.

[additional changes may be pending]

This is a rework of the idea so far. Any comments as to its workability/usefulness are appreciated.


I think those DCs are absurdly high. Ludicrously high. I’d drop the base DC by at least 10. If you dissected one, auto success. If you ever saw one +10. Familiar with shouldn’t mean studied in detail.

It actually isn’t too terrible for wizards. But brutal for sorcerers, Druids, and others who have access to the spell.

Echoing Gnaeus here.

Especially since, if you don't have at least one rank in the appropriate skill, you can't hit above DC 10 normally. Meaning anything with 3 HD (DC 36) is basically impossible to know, even if you fought it for five rounds, captured it, and studied it for a few weeks.

[Gnaeus]

I’m a half elf rogue using a shapechange scroll via UMD. “You haven’t dissected anything? You have no allowable forms. You only have a +12 knowledge local. You can’t even turn into your own parents.”

Or “bear” in mind that the familiar language comes from earlier spells/powers. A Druid basically can’t use wildshape without roaming the woods, murdering animals and examining their organs. A level 6 Druid with 10 int has +9 max know nature, can’t turn into a 1 HD bird.

The dissection language states that the specimen may not even be usable! Do you really want your 18th level sorcerer spending all his time wandering the woods like he’s grinding in Pokémon, trying to kill the same monster again and again until he gets a good one? That doesn’t sound fun to me.

[Darg]

I think those DCs are absurdly high. Ludicrously high. I’d drop the base DC by at least 10. If you dissected one, auto success. If you ever saw one +10. Familiar with shouldn’t mean studied in detail.

It actually isn’t too terrible for wizards. But brutal for sorcerers, Druids, and others who have access to the spell.

That's the issue isn't it. Knowledge checks aren't designed to be used in such a way. The best kind of familiarity is the kind where you don't need knowledge checks to know about a creature.

[Beni-Kujaku]

"You have seen it several times in your life or have studied it for some time/seen it fight for a few rounds, then you're familiar with it."

"If you have seen it only once, then knowledge check DC 10+HD."

"If you've never seen it, then you're not familiar."

That's how I rule familiarity. Any druid is familiar with any animal in a forest, but no matter how high your check is, you can't shapechange into an infernal or a chronothyrin if you've not seen one (and you'd better believe I'll not put a chronotyrin in my campaign world if there is a chance one of the players can access shapechange).

[Gnaeus]

That's the issue isn't it. Knowledge checks aren't designed to be used in such a way. The best kind of familiarity is the kind where you don't need knowledge checks to know about a creature.

What kind of “familiarity” is that? The chart includes factors like “fought the creature” or “dissected the creature”. Other than possibly your own species, what level of association exceeds “I studied it extensively to see how it works”?

The point of the knowledge check at all should be “we know your Druid knows what a salmon is. We aren’t running pointless encounters between an ECL 15 Druid and a salmon. You have 18 ranks in knowledge nature, you have David Attenborough knowledge of animals. You don’t need to keep a list of how you dissected an elk and a zebra and a crocodile”

[JNAProductions]

What kind of “familiarity” is that? The chart includes factors like “fought the creature” or “dissected the creature”. Other than possibly your own species, what level of association exceeds “I studied it extensively to see how it works”?

The point of the knowledge check at all should be “we know your Druid knows what a salmon is. We aren’t running pointless encounters between an ECL 15 Druid and a salmon. You have 18 ranks in knowledge nature, you have David Attenborough knowledge of animals. You don’t need to keep a list of how you dissected an elk and a zebra and a crocodile”

Yeah. +20 to your check (some miscellaneous bonuses-I think Druids get a bonus to Nature from class, right?) means that, to turn into a 1 HD Salmon without fighting or studying is a DC 32 check, or a 45% chance of being able to do that. At level 15.

Side note, if you fail the check, when can you retake it?

[Gnaeus]

Yeah. +20 to your check (some miscellaneous bonuses-I think Druids get a bonus to Nature from class, right?) means that, to turn into a 1 HD Salmon without fighting or studying is a DC 32 check, or a 45% chance of being able to do that. At level 15.

Side note, if you fail the check, when can you retake it?

Nature Sense. A Druid gets a +2 bonus on nature and survival checks.

I suggest:
1. If you can summon the thing or a celestial/infernal variant, you are familiar with it.
2. If you have ever studied the thing or a corpse of the thing for over an hour, you are familiar with it.
3. If it is a relatively common thing for its type and you have relevant knowledge ranks exceeding its CR, you are familiar with it. No one with even basic knowledge of nature needs to be making tests to know what a salmon or a rat is, and by the time you get even wild shape or Polymorph that’s going to be a boring encounter.
4. If you can bind/ally the thing you can spend the exp/gold for a brief simple task to become familiar with it.
5. If it is not a relatively common thing of its type and/or you lack knowledge ranks > it’s CR you have to make a knowledge check. Base DC of 10+HD, with possible penalties not exceeding HD based on how rare/unusual it is.

[JNAProductions]

Nature Sense. A Druid gets a +2 bonus on nature and survival checks.

I suggest:
1. If you can summon the thing or a celestial/infernal variant, you are familiar with it.
2. If you have ever studied the thing or a corpse of the thing for over an hour, you are familiar with it.
3. If it is a relatively common thing for its type and you have relevant knowledge ranks exceeding its CR, you are familiar with it. No one with even basic knowledge of nature needs to be making tests to know what a salmon or a rat is, and by the time you get even wild shape or Polymorph that’s going to be a boring encounter.
4. If you can bind/ally the thing you can spend the exp/gold for a brief simple task to become familiar with it.
5. If it is not a relatively common thing of its type and/or you lack knowledge ranks > it’s CR you have to make a knowledge check. Base DC of 10+HD, with possible penalties not exceeding HD based on how rare/unusual it is.

Also, as a relevant note (as something like the Chronotyryn was mentioned, and that thing is NUTS to transform into) you could just say that some creatures do not exist in your setting. If you never plan on using a Chronotyryn, it doesn't need to be a creature that exists, and is therefore ineligible for Shapechange.

[icefractal]

Yeah, I don't think familiarity should primarily be there as a balancing mechanism; better to just not have the particular creatures which cause problems exist in your world, if you aren't going to use them anyway.

Personally, I'd go with something like:
Dissected one or studied a cooperative one (like, you're able to ask it to breathe fire, roar, etc while you observe carefully) - automatic.
Been in combat with one or observed one without cooperation - easy check.
Seen one briefly or examined a partial specimen - moderate check
No direct experience - difficult check

Examining someone who's polymorphed into a creature acts as one step worse - so easy (but not automatic) with cooperative examination, moderate with observation, and difficult with a brief look.


Also, if using familiarity this way, there should really be an equivalent to the 1-dot Life ability to gain such information:

Body Reading
Divination, range touch, Will negates
You gain familiarity with the target's species as if you'd dissected them, and also learn:
* Their age category and state of health
* Any diseases or other biological afflictions affecting them
* Their physical stats
Body Reading automatically pierces cosmetic disguise to reveal the true species, but physical alterations like Polymorph require an opposed CL check to see through or the spell fails, indistinguishable from them having made the Will save.

[Gnaeus]

Yeah, I don't think familiarity should primarily be there as a balancing mechanism; better to just not have the particular creatures which cause problems exist in your world, if you aren't going to use them anyway.

Personally, I'd go with something like:
Dissected one or studied a cooperative one (like, you're able to ask it to breathe fire, roar, etc while you observe carefully) - automatic.
Been in combat with one or observed one without cooperation - easy check.
Seen one briefly or examined a partial specimen - moderate check
No direct experience - difficult check

Examining someone who's polymorphed into a creature acts as one step worse - so easy (but not automatic) with cooperative examination, moderate with observation, and difficult with a brief look.

I generally agree. The question is what a moderate or difficult check means. Is a difficult check something that only a wizard (An int class who can be reasonably expected to have every relevant knowledge maxed with a +10ish int bonus) has a chance to make? Or only an optimized (custom magic items to boost skill checks or tricks to use wieldskill or the like) wizard has a chance to make? Or is it something that a sorcerer or druid (probably not more than +1 or 2 int and unlikely to have max ranks in anything but arcana or nature respectively) has a chance to make? At teens levels we are plausibly looking at a 20 point swing between those numbers.