Cleric dip for wizard, to get Divine Metamagic?

[Jay R]

Has anybody looked into the pros and cons of a one-level dip into cleric for a wizard, just to get divine metamagic?

He would take the Planning domain to get Extend Spell for free, and eventually get Extra Turning

I know that the conventional wisdom is to never delay spell progression, and that my character would always be behind on his highest spells. But with a CHA of 18, the character could have a free Persistent spell each day. Sure, at third level (Cleric 1 / Wizard 2), he'd still only have 1st level spells (like a sorcerer), but a persistent 1st level spell is the equivalent of seventh level. Similarly, a persistent 2nd level spell is equivalent to 8th level, and a party hasted all day is equivalent to ninth level.

He would certainly be behind on getting his top spells. But is it worth it?

The eventual plan would be to become a metamagic-heavy wizard, with Incantatrix or some such. Dweomerkeeper would also be possible, because he has already taken the penalty for it.

This is for a game in which I would never expect to reach 17th-20th levels, so the question is mainly about a low-to mid-level wizard.

[Gruftzwerg]

Sacred Exorcist (prc from Complete Divine) can be entered by arcane casters and gives Turn Undead on first lvl. So a single lvl dip is enough to make your wildest arcane DMM dreams come true ;)

[H_H_F_F]

Sacred Exorcist (prc from Complete Divine) can be entered by arcane casters and gives Turn Undead on first lvl. So a single lvl dip is enough to make your wildest arcane DMM dreams come true ;)

That's for sure the most common way to get DMMP on an arcane caster, but it staggers it a lot when compared to cloistered Cleric 1/ Wizard X. I'm not 100% sure that in actual play OP's suggestion would be without merit.

[Zanos]

You can only use DMM on divine spells.

[Gruftzwerg]

You can only use DMM on divine spells.

Again a chase of "spell description in plain words" vs "Benefit:" section. By RAW the description has no permission to set limitations for the benefit.

[H_H_F_F]

You can only use DMM on divine spells.

I mean, I guess we can turn this thread into another arguement about this issue... But I think we all know the arguements for and against this position, and could assume for the sake of this thread that it can be used on arcane spells, and discuss the validity of the proposed strategy vs just aiming for sacred exorcist.

[Doctor Despair]

Again a chase of "spell description in plain words" vs "Benefit:" section. By RAW the description has no permission to set limitations for the benefit.

No, in this case, it quite literally can only be used on divine spells.


Benefit:
When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat. As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know. You must spend one turn or rebuke attempt, plus an additional attempt for each level increase in the metamagic feat you're using. For example, Jozan the cleric could sacrifice three turn attempts to empower a holy smite he's casting. Because you're using positive or negative energy to augment your spells, the spell slot for the spell doesn't change.

[Zanos]

Again a chase of "spell description in plain words" vs "Benefit:" section. By RAW the description has no permission to set limitations for the benefit.
...What? It's in both the short description and the long description.

You can channel energy into some of your divine spells to make them more powerful.

As a free action, you can take the energy from turning or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know.

[Doctor Despair]

...What? It's in both the short description and the long description.

I'd imagine the subtext here is over whether OP could overcome that limitation. There is room for debate is over whether Alternative Spell Source (Dragon 325) allowing you to prepare your arcane spells as divine spells would qualify, or if Southern Magician (Races of Faerun) allowing you to cast your arcane spell as a divine spell would qualify. Personally, I'd think absolutely yes for the second one, and mucky enough to be up to DM fiat for the first one. Regardless, OP didn't mention using either of these feats, so your voiced concern is correct.

[H_H_F_F]

As I've hinted, I think the arguement about southern magician could go for ages.

As for Grufttzwerg, I assume he hasn't seen the errata.

[Jay R]

Everyone, thank you for your comments. I learn a lot about the game and my options that way whether I wind up using your suggestions or not.

Unfortunately, it seems that Zanos is right. The feat says, “use it to apply a metamagic feat to divine spells that you know.” [Emphasis added.]

I will consider other possibilities. One idea I had was to take the generic Spellcaster class, and haste and other spells could be divine. That greatly reduced the total number of available spells, though.

Anyway, thanks for all the help. If people know other ways I can apply Persistent Spell to haste or mage armor or summoning spells at low levels, let me know.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

This looks like a job for either Southern Magician, or archivist-in-lieu-of-wizard.

[Zanos]

Oh sure, Southern Magician or Alternate Source Spell could work, depending on your DM.

[Darg]

Other options include Incantatrix or anima mage to apply persistent spell for no level increase.

[Jervis]

Alternitively just be a Illumian. They get DMM for all spells by RAW.

[Seward]

Anyway, thanks for all the help. If people know other ways I can apply Persistent Spell to haste or mage armor or summoning spells at low levels, let me know.

Can't help with haste. But since you are willing to dip a level into something else....

Take a level of Fighter with alternate class ability Armored Mage. You get a free feat, martial wpn proficiencies and shield proficiencies and can cast arcane spells in a chain shirt and light shield. That's superior to mage armor 24x7 for 103gp. Also puts handle animal on your skill list, which leads to my next point....

For permanent summoning have a +0 or better in handle animal and buy a riding dog. Give it leather barding and it is superior to any low level wizard summoning barring underwater or flying challenges. (ac18, 13hp, 551 saves, +3 d6+3 trip2). And it will carry your stuff which might be important for mage-strength lugging a chain shirt and shield around till you can afford darkwood and mithril. 170gp for dog+barding, add another 5gp for a pack saddle and you are good to go.

IIRC I don't see how you get DMM persistent in baby levels anyway. That trick has a 4 feat "tax" (extra turning, extend spell, persistent spell and divine metamagic, which is normally L6 to get together (L1, L3, L6, L5 wizard bonus feat). L3 if you worshop Bralm and get planning domain and are human or start with crazy high cha for a wizard and can skip extra turning.

[Gruftzwerg]

As I've hinted, I think the arguement about southern magician could go for ages.

As for Grufttzwerg, I assume he hasn't seen the errata.
+

...What? It's in both the short description and the long description.



That was just a test to see if everybody is awake here..^^ *joke*

Sorry my fault here. I'm already in sleep mode here... nobody is perfect.

I forgot the normal ingredients for the arcane DMM trick:

Sacred Exorcist + either Southern Magician or Alternate Source Spell as already mentioned.

[Seward]

note that sacred exorcist is of zero help getting low level persistent spell as op wanted. It is a lvl 8ish option.

[Gruftzwerg]

note that sacred exorcist is of zero help getting low level persistent spell as op wanted. It is a lvl 8ish option.

low to mid lvls I thought. And 8 is still at the start of the mid lvls imho.

[Rebel7284]

Divine Metamagic received official errata to make it clear(er).



Page 80: Divine Metamagic feat
The boldface text needs to be added to the Benefit
paragraph of the feat description:
When you take this feat, choose a metamagic feat that
you have. This feat applies only to that metamagic feat.
As a free action, you can take the energy from turning
or rebuking undead and use it to apply a metamagic feat
to divine spells that you know. . .

With that said, there are ways to cast arcane spell as divine. Southern Magician, Alternate Spell Source, possibly Geomancer come to mind.

One big reason to NOT do this, is that there are other metamagic cost reduction shenanigans that are available to arcane caster that work without losing caster levels or having to jump through hoops.

- The big one is, of course, Incantatrix. Taking Item Familiar makes the spellcraft checks trivial and by the mid-game you can have many more spells persisted than a Cleric.
- Spelldancer can Persist non-evocation spells and if you are immune to exhaustion, can spelldance all day if I recall correctly.
- Naenhoon sigil Illumian + Sacred Exorcist can effectively DMM two spells per day. Depending on how many Turn Undead attempts you get, this might be equivalent to the DMM feat and isn't limited to divine spells.
- Ultimate Magus and Anima Mage also have free metamagic, but admittedly lose caster levels (although being theurge classes, they get something significant back too)
- Node Metamagic might be difficult to use well until you have the "Teleport back to Base" option, but it's a rarely talked about and extremely powerful option.

There are other options too.

Yes, the Cleric dip + Alternate Spell Source/Southern Magician will let you persist arcane spells a few levels earlier than most of those other builds, and if you're mostly playing in the early levels, a persisted Alter Self at level 4 might be amazing, but if your game is likely to get into the mid levels, there are probably better options.

[Darg]

A spelldancer can safely spelldance a number of rounds per day equal to her Constitution modifier plus her spelldancer class level.

A level 10 spelldancer can persist 2 spells with 14 Con.

[Jervis]

A level 10 spelldancer can persist 2 spells with 14 Con.

Eh, pumping saves is a thing. Pump fort to the moon and that limit starts to look like less of a problem

[Saintheart]

Divine Bard could get DMM to work on all his bard spells. Still need a source of turning, of course.

There's also Sword of the Arcane Order, albeit it's debatable: it says nothing about whether the wizard spells it allows you to prepare in your paladin (or ranger) slots are then cast as arcane or divine. Drawing from the rest of the descriptive text, my guess is that the RAI was that they're cast as arcane, but it's a possibility. And you'd need Mystic Ranger for best effect anyway, and it's debatable whether it qualifies for SotAO.

[Gruftzwerg]

A level 10 spelldancer can persist 2 spells with 14 Con.

Normally you abuse a simple wand of "Lesser Restoration" to get past that limitation. Take the con damage and become fatigued, use the wand, rinse and repeat.

And if you wanna be cheesy, just be undead. Makes you immune to he Con damage and the fatigue effect altogether. Now spelldance as much as you want.

edit: ain't there a spell that temporary gives you undead type/traits? IIRC there was something like that..

[loky1109]

edit: ain't there a spell that temporary gives you undead type/traits? IIRC there was something like that..

8th level.

[Rebel7284]

Normally you abuse a simple wand of "Lesser Restoration" to get past that limitation. Take the con damage and become fatigued, use the wand, rinse and repeat.

And if you wanna be cheesy, just be undead. Makes you immune to he Con damage and the fatigue effect altogether. Now spelldance as much as you want.

edit: ain't there a spell that temporary gives you undead type/traits? IIRC there was something like that..

Veil of Undeath is an 8th level Cleric spell, so takes a while to get going and annoying to get on a Wizard.
Undead Mask is a 7th level Cleric spell in Savage Species that actually gives you the undead type, but also comes with more drawbacks.
Shroud of Undeath is a second level spell, but doesn't grant any of the relevant undead abilities...

Don't know of any other spells specifically for getting the benefits of being undead, but there are a ton of addition ways to prevent/cure Con damage and Exhaustion.

[Gruftzwerg]

..

Don't know of any other spells specifically for getting the benefits of being undead, but there are a ton of addition ways to prevent/cure Con damage and Exhaustion.

Thx for the infos and yeah, there are also other options to bypass this limitation.

[loky1109]

Veil of Undeath is an 8th level Cleric spell, so takes a while to get going and annoying to get on a Wizard.


Veil of Undeath is in wizard spell list, too.

[Anthrowhale]

There is also "Kiss of the Vampire", a S/W 5 spell which says: "You are treated as if you were undead for the purpose of all ... effects."