[D&D Any] Alternate Magic systems

[thirdkingdom]

I'm interested in hearing about alternate magic systems (beyond the standard D&D wizard, sorcerer, druid, cleric, etc.) for any edition, either official or in 3pp. What systems work best, or are the most interesting?

[dafrca]

I have played around with a few different point systems and a couple casting house rules others have posted. The common thing they all do is impact the various caster classes in such a way as to make some no longer worth having. But I admit I have always been open to and curious about alternatives so it will be fun to follow this thread. :smallsmile:

[paladinn]

One of the banes of my D&D/RPG experience was the Vancian "fire-and-forget" system. I spent a lot of time with 1e, 2e and BECMI trying to come up with an alternative. Then with 3e and the intro of the sorcerer, I fell in love; and if I wanted to play a spellcaster, it was always a "spontaneous" caster (like the sorc).

In 5e, I've been ecstatic that All casters are now spontaneous. But now as a step beyond, the 5e DMG has intro'd a really cool spell point system. I have modified for my game so that a spell's level is its cost in points, then add any metamagic cost. All of a caster's spell points and "sorcery points" or whatever go into one bucket and can be used as the player wishes. It's fun and uber-flexible, and still very much an exercise in resource management.

[Anonymouswizard]

In 5e, I've been ecstatic that All casters are now spontaneous. But now as a step beyond, the 5e DMG has intro'd a really cool spell point system. I have modified for my game so that a spell's level is its cost in points, then add any metamagic cost. All of a caster's spell points and "sorcery points" or whatever go into one bucket and can be used as the player wishes. It's fun and uber-flexible, and still very much an exercise in resource management.

Oh yeah, that was really cool when Tunnels & Trolls introduced that forty six years ago. It's really been the standard way RPGs have done magic for like forever, although more freeform systems pop up a lot. Need to see if I can grab a copy of Nobilis, it seems interesting on that front.

In terms of slot based magic, the only one that ever made sense to me is Unknown Armies's Adepts. You do thematic actions to get mojo, which is split into three pools of points (Minor, Significant, and the rarely seen Major). You then uses those points to attempt to cast spells, but be careful because every Adept has a Taboo, which grounds their magick if they perform certain actions. If you want to avoid all that Charge chasing you can at an Avatar, who get fewer powers but can uses them either at-will or once per [time period]. It's like somebody decided to make Mage, but better in every way.

Oh, and every Adept is crazy, an unhealthy obsession is the minimum requirement for that kind of power. The upside is that you're a legitimate clothing wizard or whatever, and that you can probably get reality to sit down and shut up by putting in the effort. In a much more flexible way than relying on rituals as well. Just don't think you'll go around throwing Fireballs, some schools get Blast spells (and Significant Blasts are the one thing more damaging than a good gun), but magic is much more focused on theme and activity.

[Quertus]

While Tunnels and Trolls may have pioneered it, both 2e and Unearthed Arcana in 3e had spell point systems. In 2e, I had a Channeler who suffered exhaustion in addition to spending mana, an alienist who risked insanity from *learning* spells in addition to using mana, a Cleric who cheated and used the alienist insanity (the deity made it make sense… or not, depending on your PoV :smalltongue:), and a Cleric who used mana and required intimate contact to use her healing spells (not unlike a certain My Hero Academia character…).

2e also had the Spelldancer, which was an… interesting mechanic. You had a stamina bar equal to your Con score, which represented how many rounds you could dance. X rounds of dancing required x rounds of rest. A spell of level Y required Y rounds of dancing to cast. Plus a few more rules. Absolutely amazing utility, rather iffy in combat.

[thirdkingdom]

While Tunnels and Trolls may have pioneered it, both 2e and Unearthed Arcana in 3e had spell point systems. In 2e, I had a Channeler who suffered exhaustion in addition to spending mana, an alienist who risked insanity from *learning* spells in addition to using mana, a Cleric who cheated and used the alienist insanity (the deity made it make sense… or not, depending on your PoV :smalltongue:), and a Cleric who used mana and required intimate contact to use her healing spells (not unlike a certain My Hero Academia character…).

2e also had the Spelldancer, which was an… interesting mechanic. You had a stamina bar equal to your Con score, which represented how many rounds you could dance. X rounds of dancing required x rounds of rest. A spell of level Y required Y rounds of dancing to cast. Plus a few more rules. Absolutely amazing utility, rather iffy in combat.

What 2e books were those found in?

[Pauly]

I like the way GURPS handles spell progression. To learn the level 2 fire spell you need to know the level 1 fire spell, and to know the level 3 fire spell you need to know the level 2 spell and so on.

It creates casters who are either very good at one thing, or good at a few things, or know a little about everything.

In D&D your wizard can pick the 5th level Death Magic spell and cast it expertly even if they’ve never cast any Death Magic in their life before.

[Thane of Fife]

What 2e books were those found in?

Spells & Magic has the Channeler, Witch/Warlock, Alienist, Defiler/Preseerver, Ritual Caster, and... Conditional Caster, I think. They're all variant systems to apply to either wizards or priests (or both). Also, most are built around an (also in the book) spell point system. Channeler is more flexible than a normal wizard but suffers exhaustion. Warlock is more flexible but slowly turns evil and has a hard time regaining spells. Alienist I think is basically normal but with a chance of insanity on learning a new spell. Defiler/Preserver is basically as in Dark Sun. Ritual Caster requires a cleric to perform rituals to gradually build up points to cast spells by performing rituals. Conditional caster varies the cost of spells based on relationship of the cleric's situation to the deity.

Personally, I think the channeler and warlock systems are neat and have occasionally made use of them; the others are less interesting.

As for Spelldancer, I think it is in Wizards and Rogues of the Forgotten Realms, which is mostly a book of kits, but it also features two new classes.


Also out there, if you look up the OSR game 27th Edition Platemail (sort of a re-imagining of how Chainmail might have turned into an RPG), it has magic rules that are more similar to the spell complexities and dice rolls of Chainmail. Personally, I like the Chainmail rules, so I'm interested in looking closer at these. (If you're not familiar, in Chainmail, every spell has a complexity. You cross-reference this with -basically- your level, and it tells you what you need to roll to cast the spell. If you pass, the spell goes off, but if you fail, the spell might fail altogether or go off next turn, depending on how much you failed by. There is also the possibility for counter-spelling by enemy magicians.)

Mazes and Minotaurs is another game that has a magic system that is probably adaptable. I think it used a spell point system, but it's been a while since I looked at that game. My recollection is that I wasn't too impressed with magic-users in that game, but it's free and might be worth a quick peek.

[Anonymouswizard]

[I]Mazes and Minotaurs is another game that has a magic system that is probably adaptable. I think it used a spell point system, but it's been a while since I looked at that game. My recollection is that I wasn't too impressed with magic-users in that game, but it's free and might be worth a quick peek.

Off the top of my head it was spell points, most spellcasters got one spell of levels 1-6, each spell costs points equal to it's level to cast. Elementalists have access to two elements which each give access to three spells, costing 2, 4, and 6 points to cast.

So yeah, nothing really special, besides the attempt to base as much of it as possible on pop culture Greek myths.

[Eldan]

My favorite is 3Es Binder. Mostly because it has excellent integration of fluff and mechanics.

The basic idea is that a binder summons and then negotiates with a powerful magical creature. In the default background, a so-called Vestige, a sort of echo of a powerful creature that was destroyed by the gods or thrown outside the normal cosmology. Similar to a Warlock, really, but the mechanical difference is that you do it every day, and it involves a charisma check to negotiate. If you lose, the vestige gets influence over you, dictating some of your behaviour. (It's almost entirely roleplay, such as "You can not lie" or "You must take every opportunity to grand stand and hold speeches".) In exchange, you get a defined package of abilities for the day. Some are like spells, some are more like class abilities, like the ability to use armor, or see in the dark.

What makes the system excellent (and a pain to homebrew for) is that every vestige comes with about a page of background, describing its history, its influence, its appearance and how it makes deals. And they are in many ways straight out of the Goetia, i.e. utterly bizarre.

Not only that, however, it also makes an excellent basis for homebrew! With some adjustments, this could be a necromancer who gets possessed by the spirits of their ancestors. A shaman who binds animal spirits. A Paladin who takes divine oaths upon themselves, giving them strict taboos.

[Mordante]

Have a look at this site (https://futurolog.wordpress.com/2017/10/27/a-brief-history-of-magic-systems-in-talislanta/)

[paladinn]

One of the banes of my D&D/RPG experience was the Vancian "fire-and-forget" system. I spent a lot of time with 1e, 2e and BECMI trying to come up with an alternative. Then with 3e and the intro of the sorcerer, I fell in love; and if I wanted to play a spellcaster, it was always a "spontaneous" caster (like the sorc).

In 5e, I've been ecstatic that All casters are now spontaneous. But now as a step beyond, the 5e DMG has intro'd a really cool spell point system. I have modified for my game so that a spell's level is its cost in points, then add any metamagic cost. All of a caster's spell points and "sorcery points" or whatever go into one bucket and can be used as the player wishes. It's fun and uber-flexible, and still very much an exercise in resource management.

Adding to this, I like how in 5e, a spell can be cast with a higher-level slot to add to the effect. So a cleric doesn't need 5 versions of Cure Wounds; just cast in a higher slot. And a given spell doesn't get all-powerful because it's cast by a level 20 wizard; level 9 is the cap (AFAIK). This limit on casters' power Slightly helps the disparity between casters and martials. And of course, it still works with spell-points:)

[Firest Kathon]

I really liked the idea of the Words of Power (https://www.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?Name=Words%20of%20Power&Category=Optional%20Rule%20Systems) system introduced for Pathfinder.

Basically, you combine a Target Word (e.g. selected, burst, or barrier), one or more effect words (e.g. fire damage, sleep, whatever), and optionally one or more meta words (e.g. quiet). Combined with a spontaneous class, e.g. sorcerer, this gave a super-flexible caster. For example: No space for a fireball? Cast it as a line or wall instead.

Unfortunately, it never got any further support, so limited options unless you work out your own effect words.

[Vahnavoi]

I own a few, mostly for OSR games, but reasonably easy to port to any official version of D&D.

One is explained in Lamentations of the Flame Princess supplements Vaginas Are Magic and Eldritch ****. You can get them from free. (https://www.lotfp.com/RPG/) The meat of those is the individual wacko spells, but the core system can be adapted to use with any spell list. Roughly: spells are still prepared, but they're all learnable from level 1 and scale to caster level. A caster can prepare a number of spells equal to their level (etc.), but can cast additional spells at the cost of having to roll on a miscast table. In addition to few generic mishaps, each spell has its own ways to go wrong. Circumstances can also cause miscast rolls or make them harder. In this framework, the primary restriction on casters is how dangerous going past your limits is. Spells are mostly found, they can be written on normal paper in normal languages, I don't remember if any are meant to be gained through simply leveling up.

A similar one is in a supplement with an Ouroboros against a black background, the name of which I forget. It works somewhat similarly: a caster can safely cast a number of spells equal to level, all spells are learnable from level one and scale to level. However, each caster also has basic elemental attack (of element of their choice) and can sacrifice any prepared spell to do (caster level x d6) damage. Spells are split into disciplines, similar to existing D&D schools of magic, but different categorization. By default, each discipline has eight spells, you choose one primary discipline and pick (or roll) two from that discipline, then pick a secondary discipline and pick one spell from there. All other spells have to be found from scrolls. Each discipline has its own miscast table, if you try to cast more spells than you have prepared, you have to make saving throws against magic or be forced to roll a miscast. For spells that don't belong to any proper discipline, you roll on a table of all possible mishaps.

Carcosa has a very different set-up. I don't remember how level of sorcerers interacts with number of rituals known or their strength, but that's details. In actual play, most rituals have to be found from, and conducted in, specific locations. They rely on gruesome human sacrifices and have to be conducted in a very specific manner, often taking a very long time. The rituals can be sorted into, what, six or seven categories? Invocation, conjuration, binding, banishment, torture and destruction, those I remember. Each ritual operation is linked to a specific Old One, but for your purposes, you can substitute whatever set of demons, angels, elementals or other creepy-crawlies based on your setting. Invocation calls the mind of a creature to the body of a human, allowing said human to benefit from wisdom of the creature. Conjuration bodily summons the creature. Binding bends the creature to the sorcerer's will. Banishment sends the creature back to its home, or ends an invocation. Torture hurts a creature (and may be the only way to hurt that creature). Destruction destroys a creature (which makes it unavailable for other operations; may or may not be a bad idea).

[vasilidor]

Pathfinder has a third party thing called spheres of power.
Check it out.

[thirdkingdom]

Pathfinder has a third party thing called spheres of power.
Check it out.

I've heard good things about this! Can you provide some details about it?

[KorvinStarmast]

I've heard good things about this! Can you provide some details about it? He posted a nice thread on that in the D&D 5e forum, which may be either a port in or a variation on it. It is certainly an interesting approach to magic.

[paladinn]

Adding to this, I like how in 5e, a spell can be cast with a higher-level slot to add to the effect. So a cleric doesn't need 5 versions of Cure Wounds; just cast in a higher slot. And a given spell doesn't get all-powerful because it's cast by a level 20 wizard; level 9 is the cap (AFAIK). This limit on casters' power Slightly helps the disparity between casters and martials. And of course, it still works with spell-points:)

One last thing on this.. The 5e rules clearly discuss Upcasting, using higher-level slots to cast lower-level spells, increasing their power. I've also played with Downcasting. If you know, say, fireball, which is a 3rd level spell, but you don't want to burn a 3rd level slot, you can cast it using a lower level slot. It's less powerful, but it can still take out a few mooks in a given area. You still have to be able to cast a 3rd level spell, but you don't have to cast it At 3rd level.

Lots of fun playing around with this:) Way more flexibility than "fire-and-forget"

[StSword]

Lots of options.

There's True Sorcery, Elements of magic,

pact magic ala binders for 3x and the Pactmaker (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/pact-magic) for PF,

incarnum and its pathfinder equivalent akashic magic (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/akashic-mysteries), Sutra Magic (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/sutra-magic), wild magic ala The Quintessential Chaos mage,

several new magic styles in Penumbra's Occult Lore,

the Encyclopedia Arcane book series has various magic additions but not complete replacements like star magic and elementalism,

Eclipse Codex Persona (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/51255/Eclipse-The-Codex-Persona-Shareware?src=newest) has multiple new systems,

Miracles and Wonders is an alternate divine system for requesting miracles instead of casting spells,

Practical Enchanter (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/51242/The-Practical-Enchanter) has a "use the item creation rules to make yourself a superhuman," which is in character basically a different magic system.

Oh you can find info about the spheres system here (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/) for Pathfinder and here (http://spheres5e.wikidot.com/) for 5e.

Paths of Power has a feat based path magic system you can check out for free here (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/28926/Paths-of-Power?src=also_purchased), so you could say adapt it for supernatural martial arts and such.

There is the ritual magic Incantations (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/incantations) which got love in the book in Incantations in Theory and Practice which include changing the concept by changing the skills involved- magic music, super-science, alchemy, and also got some love in Deep Magic including feats like a "Craft incantation" feat.

Fantastic Science A Technologist Sourcebook has technology as magic, with Technologists having to protect their technology from magical interference, also a different version of the class that has no such problem if you'd rather have technology not act like magic.

For Fifth edition someone made a colored mana system ala Magic the Gathering.

[JNAProductions]

One last thing on this.. The 5e rules clearly discuss Upcasting, using higher-level slots to cast lower-level spells, increasing their power. I've also played with Downcasting. If you know, say, fireball, which is a 3rd level spell, but you don't want to burn a 3rd level slot, you can cast it using a lower level slot. It's less powerful, but it can still take out a few mooks in a given area. You still have to be able to cast a 3rd level spell, but you don't have to cast it At 3rd level.

Lots of fun playing around with this:) Way more flexibility than "fire-and-forget"

I mean... Compare a 1st level Burning Hands, which is 3d6 Fire Damage (save for half) in a 15' cone, to a 1st level Fireball, which would be 6d6 fire damage (save for half) in a 20' radius anywhere within 150'.

That's a significant upgrade in power.

[NichG]

I'm rather fond of Advanced D20 Magic / Slayers d20 system, which is sort of a BESM -> D&D adaptation. Casting spells deals 'sticky' non-lethal hitpoint drain (only heals naturally over time) and requires a heavily modified Fortitude saving throw against the spell's DC, which incorporates spell level, components, focus requirement, casting time, etc, and removes the strict character level to spell level access relationship. It gives you a lot of ways to modify how you're casting a spell, so a 3rd level character could e.g. create an hour-long ritual involving a sacrifice of blood and gold to pull off a 4th level spell that they couldn't cast normally, or a high enough level (or sufficiently optimized) character could basically emulate metamagic feats like Silent or Still spell on sufficiently low level spells by 'oomphing' them - just making the raw Fort save and not bothering with any of the available modifiers for naming/incanting/etc. It also allows characters who don't have dedicated casting class levels to still try to use magic, it's just that they don't get any of the significant casting bonuses that make it possible to pull off level-appropriate spell effects with a standard action.

It does make magic significantly more powerful compared to D&D baseline (and in general it's a big power boost all around, so consider the party level to be something like 25-50% higher than normal maybe...), but it's much easier book-keeping, it's a lot of fun, and since it uses Fortitude saves rather than e.g. Will saves for casting there's a funny thing where gish-type builds become a lot more effective than they would be in standard D&D. In the Slayers campaign I was in we had a fighter-type character who went into Abjurant Champion to get CL = BAB and ended up being a very effective self-buffer as well as a utility caster on the side for much less investment than you'd normally need.

[Anonymouswizard]

I mean... Compare a 1st level Burning Hands, which is 3d6 Fire Damage (save for half) in a 15' cone, to a 1st level Fireball, which would be 6d6 fire damage (save for half) in a 20' radius anywhere within 150'.

That's a significant upgrade in power.

You could make it work, but you'd probably need to be able to set up higher level spells to scale a lot faster. Fireball would probably have to be getting +/-3d6 per level, which means 4th level spells have to be dealing at least 11d6 damage and scaling at 4d6 per level. The end result is that either damage for spells becomes very flat (likely 1+2*slot level in d6) or the damage output of high level casters becomes significantly higher (as 5th level spells have to base 15d6 damage, 41d6 for 9th level*, assuming we want each spell to be competitive at it's level and subpar at best at lower levels). That's not even taking into account things like range or area of effect.

If you were to build a system around it you'd likely just make every spell 1st level, but start giving spells prerequisites.

* Although Meteor Swarm does do nearly that much damage if I'm reading it correctly, 7th and 8th level spells fall behind the 26 and 33 dice mark.

[thorr-kan]

There are d20 Incantations, as mentioned above, both in d20 Modern and Unearthed Arcana.

Third parties expanded on this:
In d20 Modern Player's Guide, with Lesser Incantations: basically ritual magic, by The Game Mechanics.
There were also Incantations from the Other Side and Incantations in Theory and Practice from Zombie Sky Press (mentioned above).
Further Incantation feats and suggestions in Kobold Press's Deep Magic.

Paizo released Rituals, which were also expanded on by third parties.

Are Rituals and Incantations functionally similar, or are they different?

[StSword]

Are Rituals and Incantations functionally similar, or are they different?

Same concept, methodology is mostly the same, but there are differences.

Incantations is purely skill based, but occult rituals can be enhanced by the casters caster level or attunement to ley lines, for example, so casters, all things being equal, will be better at occult rituals.

[LibraryOgre]

One that I've drawn inspiration from many times over the years is 2e's Shamans (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/17443/Shaman-2e?affiliate_id=315505) supplement.

Shamans form relationships with various spirits, who provide them specific spells. They can try to cast an infinite number of times per day, but each spell is a Wisdom check, and failure means the spirit is tired of providing that spell today.

There's also Rune magic, in a few forms from a few different sources; Giantcraft (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/16851/FOR7-Giantcraft-2e?affiliate_id=315505) and Historical Reference: Vikings (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/16912/HR1-Vikings-Campaign-Sourcebook-2e?affiliate_id=315505) are largely compatible, and I ironed out their differences in this post (https://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/2019/08/runecaster-kit.html), making a unified Runecaster kit for any class.

Thane of Fife mentioned 2nd edition's Spells and Magic (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/16864/Players-Option--Spells--Magic-2e?affiliate_id=315505), which introduced a lot of options, but the 2e points system had the "low-level spells are cheap" problem... at 9th level, it might be better to spam magic missiles, rather than cast a single 5th level spell, since you could cast so many more magic missiles over the day.

Since I'm a booster, you might also take a look at Kenzerco's Hackmaster (link to the free basic game (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/104757/HackMaster-Basic-free?affiliate_id=315505)) uses a points system where all mage spells have a set effect, but you can enhance them by spending spell points... but spending too many, and a few other conditions, can result in a mishap, which are mostly negative.

And, of course, there are psionics systems. Complete Psionic (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/16891/PHBR5-The-Complete-Psionics-Handbook-2e?affiliate_id=315505) and Skills and Powers (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/16863/Players-Option--Skills--Power-2e?affiliate_id=315505) had two different systems for 2e, which I combined here (https://rpgcrank.blogspot.com/2021/01/ad-psionics-unification.html).

[Quertus]

Thane of Fife mentioned 2nd edition's Spells and Magic (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/16864/Players-Option--Spells--Magic-2e?affiliate_id=315505), which introduced a lot of options, but the 2e points system had the "low-level spells are cheap" problem... at 9th level, it might be better to spam magic missiles, rather than cast a single 5th level spell, since you could cast so many more magic missiles over the day.

And the “low level spells are cheap” feature is a problem because.…?

[LibraryOgre]

And the “low level spells are cheap” feature is a problem because.…?

Because the per level increase made them potent with higher level spells, without the cost.