How to delay warmage 3rd lvl advanced learning

[Fero]

Hi,

Does anyone know a good way to delay the warmage's first advanced learning at lvl 3 without losing a caster level in 3.5 (including dragon)? Thank you.

[Venger]

The only thing that springs to mind is delaying taking the 3rd level of warlock until your desired point. I can't think of any full casting prcs enterable by 2. The best I can offer is human paragon, which is 2/3 and enterable from chargen. What is it you're trying to do? Is there a specific spell you want to have access to? You might be able to get it later through fiend-blooded or something.

[Troacctid]

The only prestige class in the game that can do this is early-entry paragnostic apostle.

[Jervis]

Hi,

Does anyone know a good way to delay the warmage's first advanced learning at lvl 3 without losing a caster level in 3.5 (including dragon)? Thank you.

Just take a CL progressing PrC. With CL boosting you can theoretically get sand shaper at 2nd but that needs a way to boost your CL by +4 and 250 GP for a touchstone. Best way would be bloodline levels but few people allow that. Other than that just hop into any other low level PrC

[Jervis]

The only prestige class in the game that can do this is early-entry paragnostic apostle.

I mean Aasimar is an option that makes it pretty easy IIRC.

[Maat Mons]

Normally, my go-to options for pre-prestige class dips on casters are Drow Paragon (with lesser drow, of course, to avoid LA) and Aberrant Paragon. However, Drow Paragon can only advance Cleric or Wizard casting, and Aberrant Paragon can only advance Cleric, Favored Soul, Psychic Warrior, Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wilder. All the other racial paragon classes I'm aware of don't progress casting at 1st level.

[Anthrowhale]

The only prestige class in the game that can do this is early-entry paragnostic apostle.

Using Lesser Aasimar, for example.

With access to flaws it's possible to early entry Rainbow Servant as well via (say) Heighten Spell+Earth Spell+Versatile Spellcaster using 2 L1 slots to cast an L1-heightened-to-L2 spell which Earth Spell modifies into an L3 spell.

[Jervis]

Using Lesser Aasimar, for example.

With access to flaws it's possible to early entry Rainbow Servant as well via (say) Heighten Spell+Earth Spell+Versatile Spellcaster using 2 L1 slots to cast an L1-heightened-to-L2 spell which Earth Spell modifies into an L3 spell.

Doesn’t that run afoul of minimum caster level rules?

[Anthrowhale]

Doesn’t that run afoul of minimum caster level rules?

Is there a consistent minimum caster level rule?

[sreservoir]

Is there a consistent minimum caster level rule?

The existence of a minimum caster level rule is pretty consistent, and is a requirement:

You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
and the examples scattered around the books basically agree with most intuitive understandings what the minimum caster level should be, at least for the simple case.

There isn't actually a rule that spells out what the minimum caster level for a particular spell (well, below 10th level anyway) is afaik, though, and pretty much has to be inferred from the magic item tables. But those only cover core classes + heighten spell.

[Jervis]

The existence of a minimum caster level rule is pretty consistent, and is a requirement:

and the examples scattered around the books basically agree with most intuitive understandings what the minimum caster level should be, at least for the simple case.

There isn't actually a rule that spells out what the minimum caster level for a particular spell (well, below 10th level anyway) is afaik, though, and pretty much has to be inferred from the magic item tables. But those only cover core classes + heighten spell.

I always assume that it’s the lowest level at which the class can cast the spell. Though i’m actually not sure if it’s spell based or slot based in the sense of what a heightened spell’s minimum CL is.

[Anthrowhale]

I always assume that it’s the lowest level at which the class can cast the spell. Though i’m actually not sure if it’s spell based or slot based in the sense of what a heightened spell’s minimum CL is.

As an application that seems reasonable in general.

It seems like there is a conflict between the text of Earth Spell:

If you cast a spell using a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level, the spell is treated as a spell of two levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by one.
and the general caster level rule quoted. In particular, if a first level character heightens a cantrip to level 1 with earth spell in effect, it would be treated as spell level 2 with caster level of 2 which is disallowed by the general caster level rule.

There are two ways to resolve this.

We could say that earth spell creates a specific allowance which is an exception to the general rule under the specific-trumps-general rule.
We could say that the general rule constrains the application of earth spell so you can't effectively heighten beyond what caster level allows.

Is there any way to rule out one resolution or the other?

[Jervis]

As an application that seems reasonable in general.

It seems like there is a conflict between the text of Earth Spell:

and the general caster level rule quoted. In particular, if a first level character heightens a cantrip to level 1 with earth spell in effect, it would be treated as spell level 2 with caster level of 2 which is disallowed by the general caster level rule.

There are two ways to resolve this.

We could say that earth spell creates a specific allowance which is an exception to the general rule under the specific-trumps-general rule.
We could say that the general rule constrains the application of earth spell so you can't effectively heighten beyond what caster level allows.

Is there any way to rule out one resolution or the other?

Strict raw I know it’s ambiguous, you could get a 2nd level spell at 2 though (or 3 for delayed casters) because of the +1. Though personally I think things like ISK and earth spell should probably bypass the limit just because they logically shouldn’t turn themselves off. I can’t say for sure though

[Darg]

Earth spell is pretty specific about using spell slots of the intended level, not just applying heighten to the spell. While it can be inferred that earth spell is really referencing heighten's property of increasing spell level, a strict RAW reading requires the spell to actually use the spell slot to benefit.

Beyond that, a heightened spell isn't a spell you know. An archivist or wizard can't just learn metamagicked spells from scrolls and what not.