OOTS #1250 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Dragonus45]

Yea that really was a startlingly empty threat, shows that she really does just not understand the context of what the order is about or what is going on that she thinks she does. Also Paladin Shark FTW!

[Peelee]

I always want more Lien. Today is a good day.

[Rezby]

I love how absolutely fed up everybody looks by the end. They have each Had It with dealing with this bull.

[Hurkyl]

I... didn't expect to be quite that on point in regards to the threat of interrogation. "She probably knows plot stuff we need to know" was more of a screw-up than I thought.

[elros]

I never thought I would see a "bluff off (https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/iaungw/two_guys_bluff_each_other/)," and I am not eager to see it again.
Serini is making no sense, and I have no idea where this is going. Seems like an odd cliffhanger.
Also, where does Lien keep the Pokeball?

[Synesthesy]

First time I refresh when new comic is up!

Yes, I did refresh many many many times every day to get this....

[internisus]

This is definitely going to end well.

[Sarbos]

I would be curious if they both fall in the cauldron... and nothing happens because it was all a bluff.

[danielxcutter]

Thank you Lien, everyone is Friggin DoneTM with Serini being as humanly frustrating as possible without being actually Evil and I don't think a shark to the face will actually kill her anyways.

[Ivrytwr]

I just love Haley. And the shark!!!
Thanks Giant!

[Fyraltari]

This, this does put a smile on my face.

Also, how good are sharks at holding their "breath"? And could this amnesia potion affect a celestial being?

I just don't want the loyal fishie to get hurt.

[Schroeswald]

You know it looks like Lien is throwing an Ultra Ball instead of a regular Pokeball

[Arlor]

I can't believe I'm the first to say that we've literally jumped a shark now.

[Peelee]

I can't believe I'm the first to say that we've literally jumped a shark now.

Other way around, the shark is doing the jumping.

[elros]

I can't believe I'm the first to say that we've literally jumped a shark now.
+1

I also never thought I would see Belkar being the one trying to de-escalate a situation!

[Shale]

Hah! Everybody expected Bloodfeast to save the day, but who predicted Razor instead?

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm rather fond of Haley coming to the sensible conclusion that she has nothing to lose by not backing down.

[Phhase]

It's Opposite Monday! Belkar tries to de-escalate while Haley dares today's adversary to jump! Oh, and Lien yeets her paladin mount.

[Sybarith]

Serini's really demonstrating what isolation can do to the mind.

Her conversation with Hailey tells us she's still got the right Rogue instincts, but she's just a tad bit off on the execution.

[deworde]

Slightly concerned that Razor is going to soak everyone in memory juice.

[Timy]

I can't believe I'm the first to say that we've literally jumped a shark now.

For those of us who are not perfectly familiar with English idioms, what's the meaning of this one ?

[Quild]

Soooo. Serini is actually going to fall into the potion because of Razor?
Not sure Lien did the best move here.

Poor bluff from Serini indeed. Would have work on some friends of mine though.

[RMS Oceanic]

For those of us who are not perfectly familiar with English idioms, what's the meaning of this one ?

Some kind of occurrence in the story that, often in retrospect, alters the tone and quality of the story, usually for the negative.

[hamishspence]

Serini's tactic is kind of a "hold yourself hostage" thing - like in Blazing Saddles. Nice.

[Windscion]

Okay, so apparently Serini thinks she has information the Order would want to have. The Order have no such expectation.
Let us consider that Serini has information that they need, but are unaware that they lack. That rules out the planet in the rift, since they know they don't understand that. The simplest explanation is that Serini knows how to get to The Last Gate, and it is not as easy as we expect.
Even so, who cares? The Order don't need to get to The Last Gate. They only need to keep Xykon from getting to the gate, preferably by destroying him.

Anyway, if my theory about Belkar is correct, he is the one about to take a bath in amnesiotic fluid. (That's not a typo: I mixed amnesia and amniotic.) Without his memories, the Belkster is gone, dead, but not buried.

[In4Dimensions]

Slightly concerned that Razor is going to soak everyone in memory juice.
Yeah, he definitely looks big enough to knock over the cauldron.

Also, we never see the full extent of Lien's right hand after she says "Almost got it" in the last strip!

[ti'esar]

Belkar trying to get everyone to cool down and negotiate is the most surreal thing I've seen all month.

[Peelee]

For those of us who are not perfectly familiar with English idioms, what's the meaning of this one ?


Some kind of occurrence in the story that, often in retrospect, alters the tone and quality of the story, usually for the negative.

It comes from an episode of Happy Days where one of the characters, while riding a motorcycle, jumped over a water tank with a shark in it. That episide is largely seen as a definitive point where the show was more bad than good, so "jumping the shark" as a phrase was born.

[Cicciograna]

Inb4 everybody with the crazy theory that Serini IS indeed related to Belkar, but per her own admission, she has forgotten about him but remembers he forgot about this critical piece of information.

[Frozenstep]

Belkar trying to deescalate the situation. You love to see it.

So, one vial is weeks of memories? So the whole cauldron might wipe out all the memories from your entire life? That's basically a form of dying, everything you are would be wiped away. Whatever that comes next isn't really you.

So with that said, is this how "Belkar" draws his last breath? :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

Inb4 everybody with the crazy theory that Serini IS indeed related to Belkar, but per her own admission, she has forgotten about him but remembers he forgot about this critical piece of information.

I would like to propose the theory that Serini IS indeed related to Belkar, but per her own admission, she has forgotten about him but remembers he forgot about this critical piece of information.

Belkar trying to deescalate the situation. You love to see it.

So, one vial is weeks of memories? So the whole cauldron might wipe out all the memories from your entire life? That's basically a form of dying, everything you are would be wiped away. Whatever that comes next isn't really you.

So with that said, is this how "Belkar" draws his last breath? :smalltongue:

No.:smalltongue:

[Zonkerbl]

For those of us who are not perfectly familiar with English idioms, what's the meaning of this one ?

There was a popular tv show in the seventies called "Happy Days" that went on for muuuuuuuuuch longer than it really should have. Looking back on the show, many fans speculated that the official downturn point of the show was an episode where the main character, Fonzie, does a daring water ski jump over a shark. This actually happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahxG3iPeVcU

So now "a tv show that went on so long that the writers ran out of good ideas for it" is one that has "jumped the shark."

Like Supernatural.

[Rad]

AWESOME

It's really nice to see the competent side of OotS. Also I think this is a nice play because the readers do care a lot about Serini's memories, more than the Order does.
If you think about it, the priorities of the Order do not align with those of the readership. Like, sneaking on Xykon in the teleport-trap passageway and killing him in the surprise round? that would be great for the Order, and a bummer for us!

[SlashDash]

Serini's bluff is just too weird here. Of course it would be a useless bluff.
I thought the same as Haley, they didn't count on her having any info in the first place, not to mention, who says they can't find a way to undo the potion?

If Serini's bluff should have been "I lose my memories, I can't stop all my monster friends from killing you" would have been far more to the point.



Also, Lien could have summoned her shark all this time?!?
I guess it's official we can confirm O-Chul doesn't have one (yet) cause if he could bring a horse or something, it sure as heck would have been useful now.

[The MunchKING]

What I find interesting she has switched him over (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html) to a Dive Ball (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1250.html) by now. :smallbiggrin:

[Timy]

It comes from an episode of Happy Days where one of the characters, while riding a motorcycle, jumped over a water tank with a shark in it. That episide is largely seen as a definitive point where the show was more bad than good, so "jumping the shark" as a phrase was born.

Thanks for the explanation !

[Frozenstep]

AWESOME

It's really nice to see the competent side of OotS. Also I think this is a nice play because the readers do care a lot about Serini's memories, more than the Order does.
If you think about it, the priorities of the Order do not align with those of the readership. Like, sneaking on Xykon in the teleport-trap passageway and killing him in the surprise round? that would be great for the Order, and a bummer for us!

I mean, Serini's memories would be handy, but as a not-so-wise man once said, power I can't access is no power at all.

[danielxcutter]

Serini's bluff is just too weird here. Of course it would be a useless bluff.
I thought the same as Haley, they didn't count on her having any info in the first place, not to mention, who says they can't find a way to undo the potion?

If Serini's bluff should have been "I lose my memories, I can't stop all my monster friends from killing you" would have been far more to the point.



Also, Lien could have summoned her shark all this time?!?
I guess it's official we can confirm O-Chul doesn't have one (yet) cause if he could bring a horse or something, it sure as heck would have been useful now.

That's mostly because she's convinced that the Order and the paladins want to get to the Gate and destroy the world so Xykon can't take over, which is pretty dumb on multiple levels.

[gnomish dwelf]

poor Razor is going to end having alzheimers after diving in, but let's be real, a shark jumping you is better than you jumping the shark

[Gift Jeraff]

I wonder if the baldies and blondies will drop in soon.

[Grey Watcher]

"Surrender, or I'll leave you blindly stumbling around without a clue!"

"Lady, that's how this group has done most of its best work."

[Frozenstep]

"Surrender, or I'll leave you blindly stumbling around without a clue!"

"Lady, that's how this group has done most of its best work."

:belkar: "I mean, have you met Elan?"

[Yxylu]

This is the first time we have seen Razor in over 12 years. He last showed up at the end of book four, in August of 2009.

Unless you count the wallpaper “Beach Party” from the end of August 2013.

[Bacon Elemental]

Any day with Lien being cool is a good day.


Also I cant help but notice that flying V actually did go feet-on-the-floor when Serini demanded it, the only member of the group who did any of her demands.

[Fyraltari]

Also, Lien could have summoned her shark all this time?!?

Razor can't move outside of the water, so they're only use here is as a distraction. Which would be useless without somebody else in the room not wearing shackles to take advantage of it.

[Metastachydium]

Summon bigger fish!

[Draconi Redfir]

i feel like throwing a giant shark at a cauldron of memory-erasure-juice might be a bad thing?:smallconfused:

[littlebum2002]

There was a popular tv show in the seventies called "Happy Days" that went on for muuuuuuuuuch longer than it really should have. Looking back on the show, many fans speculated that the official downturn point of the show was an episode where the main character, Fonzie, does a daring water ski jump over a shark. This actually happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahxG3iPeVcU

So now "a tv show that went on so long that the writers ran out of good ideas for it" is one that has "jumped the shark."

Like Supernatural.

Or, probably most famously, the Simpsons

[Metastachydium]

i feel like throwing a giant shark at a cauldron of memory-erasure-juice might be a bad thing?:smallconfused:

At any rate, it was the cool thing to do, so it had to be done.

[danielxcutter]

Or, probably most famously, the Simpsons

I'd like to recommend what Yahtzee of Zero Punctuation had to say about it, but it's not exactly within the forum rules(or really, Zero Punctuation in general) so I'm going to just leave it at that.

Note that I don't actually know that much about it but from what I have heard it sounds about right.

[gnomish dwelf]

i feel like throwing a giant shark at a cauldron of memory-erasure-juice might be a bad thing?:smallconfused:

I feel you, I totally agree... and for those that think Lien is shackled... its obvious he finally freed himself.

[Peelee]

I feel you, I totally agree... and for those that think Lien is shackled... its obvious he finally freed himself.

Lien is a she.

[npc revolution]

That's mostly because she's convinced that the Order and the paladins want to get to the Gate and destroy the world so Xykon can't take over, which is pretty dumb on multiple levels.

I read it as her not trusting the Order and Paladins not to mess it up somehow. Their flaw in her eyes is their willingness to risk it all to win.

[gnomish dwelf]

Lien is a she.

I am not sure if I made a typo twice or if I wasn't aware of Lien's sex... I was just using Lien as pieceholder for kewl-paladin-that-jumped-a-shark-at-the-problem

[Hurkyl]

Okay, so apparently Serini thinks she has information the Order would want to have. The Order have no such expectation.
I beg to differ:


Come on, we can't let her escape! She probably knows plot stuff we need to know.

[Peelee]

I beg to differ:

Aye, it's just a bluff-off.

[Reboot]

i feel like throwing a giant shark at a cauldron of memory-erasure-juice might be a bad thing?:smallconfused:

Eh, the Rogues have evasion up the wazoo, V is flying and the paladins are in the wrong direction. That doesn't leave anyone, right :p

[Metastachydium]

Aye, it's just a bluff-off.


Mainly just a bluff-off. Hurkyl's of course right in pointing out that they'd rather get to hear what Serini might have to say, but I'd guess that letting her run free or, worse yet, surrendering to be drugged and flung away from the Tomb is not really something they'd choose over potentially missing out on some exposition they never really expected to get until about a few minutes ago.


Eh, the Rogues have evasion up the wazoo, V is flying and the paladins are in the wrong direction. That doesn't leave anyone, right :p

Well, Belkar explicitly does have Evasion. He's just pretty bad at using it.

[gnomish dwelf]

Eh, the Rogues have evasion up the wazoo, V is flying and the paladins are in the wrong direction. That doesn't leave anyone, right :p

the splash can move backwards after falling forwards...

[KorvinStarmast]

1. I love Lien, yet again. :smallsmile: <3

I love how absolutely fed up everybody looks by the end. They have each Had It with dealing with this bull. As have some of the readers.

I'm rather fond of Haley coming to the sensible conclusion that she has nothing to lose by not backing down. Haley being smart has been on display since Elan's instrument went floating off ... enjoying this, given how many thieves and rogues I've played over the years.

It's Opposite Monday! Belkar tries to de-escalate while Haley dares today's adversary to jump! Oh, and Lien yeets her paladin mount. The bolded part. Almost vertigo inducing.

As to Serini's reply at the end, she may think that razer-go is an idiomatic phrase among Azurites...

Pro Tip For Serini (from another oldster): when you decide to play the bluff game, know who you are trying to bluff. Underestimating the opposition in the game of bluff and counterbluff can get really expensive when you are at the poker table. Likewise in other scenarios.

[Hurkyl]

Pro Tip For Serini (from another oldster): when you decide to play the bluff game, know who you are trying to bluff. Underestimating the opposition in the game of bluff and counterbluff can get really expensive when you are at the poker table. Likewise in other scenarios.
Has it cost her anything? She managed to stall her pursuers, at least.

I guess it cost her awareness of what Lien was up to, but that's it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also I cant help but notice that flying V actually did go feet-on-the-floor when Serini demanded it, the only member of the group who did any of her demands. Might be why V leaves the bluff game up to Haley: V is a bit more of a blunt instrument, in style and approach.

[Peelee]

As have some of the readers.

Yeah! This Azurite trial Halley's aphasia Roy's afterlife Azurites at sea Godsmoot Andi/Bandanna airship Dwarven council Serini plotline has gone on too far too long!

[danielxcutter]

I'm fairly sure that Serini being annoying as all hell is literally the point.

[Metastachydium]

Has it cost her anything? She managed to stall her pursuers, at least.

I guess it cost her awareness of what Lien was up to, but that's it.

She didn't gain much, either, though. It's not like she stopped being cornered and (Haley and V's earliest comments aside) the Order wasn't going to bring any lasting harm to her anyway.

[gnomish dwelf]

you imagine the day order of the stick becomes a cartoon?

[Fyraltari]

I just wanna compliment the art upgrage on razor. Looks gorgeous. I hope we'll see Argent in the new style at some point too.

Windstriker is most likely out of the question, though.

Edit: Unless O-Chul gets him as a mount?

[Resileaf]

i feel like throwing a giant shark at a cauldron of memory-erasure-juice might be a bad thing?:smallconfused:

Unless every single character on the page decides to keep their mouths open and happily drink all the potion that falls on them, the memory-erasure juice is not gonna have any effect.
It's a potion, it only takes effect when you drink it.

[danielxcutter]

I think potions can be used as splash weapons actually.

[smuchmuch]

So either Serini slips and falls into a vat of memory ereasin potion or she get eaten ? ... I'll take eithr or both. (Yeah, I'm soeey but this whole thing feel like such a distraction... Hoping it'll go,somwhere very interesting but...I'm not torn up if it send up,there.)

[Rezby]

It looks like Razor is angled to knock Sirini off the edge of the cauldron but away from the vat of bubbling amnesia. He doesn’t need to move around on land if he already has her in his jaws - he just needs to incapacitate her for half a round so she can’t pull any more tricks.

I wonder what Haley or Roy’s endgame here will be regarding the entire affair. She’s a Hero (tm) who has essentially declared war on you due to overwhelming fear of a common enemy. If she can’t be convinced to aid, or to qt least step away from the fight, and she’s too epic leveled to be captured effectively for long term, what options will the Order even have here?

On a meta level, I don’t think it would really fit the narrative if she joins the party in the actual fight against Team Xykon. This is Roy’s personal journey after all.

[Psyren]

Thank you Lien, everyone is Friggin DoneTM with Serini being as humanly frustrating as possible without being actually Evil and I don't think a shark to the face will actually kill her anyways.

Technically the back of her head. Otherwise agreed :smallbiggrin:


I beg to differ:

I mean, yeah they'd rather just catch and talk to her, but if she's willing to unalive her memories over this then Haley's ultimatum (we're absolutely not surrendering you twit) is definitely the stronger here. All that would do is put the Order right back where they started, except without the vague threat of her popping up to poison them randomly anymore once they tuck her blank slate into bed with some oatmeal.

[Mike Havran]

It seems to me that bluffing is pretty much Serini's go-to solution as she employs it immediately when pressured. I wonder if her ''Hey! Let's calm down!'' speech to the Scribblers is from the same cauldron and she was hiding up something back there, as well.

And I'm looking forward to see her getting a hefty helping of Azurite ROM NOM NOM dish as well :smallamused:

[Shining Wrath]

The Pokemon ball is a nice choice for a Paladin casting calling their mount.


Special Mount (Sp)
Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin).

Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin’s level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin and remains for 2 hours per paladin level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the paladin may release a particular mount from service.

Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect.

Should the paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the paladin takes a -1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.

Lien may take a hit for 30 days unless she dismisses her mount before it suffocates. OTOH, I think that cauldron is going to be spilled rather thoroughly.

[Baelzar]

That shark? Is me.

[Shining Wrath]

I never thought I would see a "bluff off (https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/iaungw/two_guys_bluff_each_other/)," and I am not eager to see it again.
Serini is making no sense, and I have no idea where this is going. Seems like an odd cliffhanger.
Also, where does Lien keep the Pokeball?

See previous post: the Pokeball is humor. A paladin can summon their mount from celestial realms as a full round action, no material, verbal, or somatic components mentioned.


I can't believe I'm the first to say that we've literally jumped a shark now.

In Order of the Stick, shark jumps you!


For those of us who are not perfectly familiar with English idioms, what's the meaning of this one ?

It's used to refer to the moment in a TV show or other serial entertainment product when even the fans can no longer take the show seriously. It's the "OK, they aren't even trying to write good stuff any longer" moment.

[luagha]

I always want more Lien. Today is a good day.

"I choose you!"

[Peelee]

In Order of the Stick, shark jumps you!

You're thinking of Azure City (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html).

[luagha]

Might be why V leaves the bluff game up to Haley: V is a bit more of a blunt instrument, in style and approach.

I'm waiting for V to Disintegrate the paladins free.

[Lexible]

Conjecture: Serini is actually winning the bluff-off here.

Because she is not actually bluffing about the potion. She is stalling by bluffing about the potion.

[urbanwolf]

What's a Ray-zergo?
With the pokeball and the question Serini is giving off powerful "every old person in tv" energy. Like my grandma trying to understand pokemon when I was 12.

[Peelee]

I'm waiting for V to Disintegrate the paladins free.

I'll take that bet. V will charge to disintegrate the paladins.

[Metastachydium]

I'll take that bet. V will charge to disintegrate the paladins.

Don't forget that (as we all know,) V is at least 21st level. I'm sure they'll open with a Hellball.

[DaOldeWolf]

I expected Serini to lose her memory but not in a million years would I have expected a shark to be involved in the whole thing. :smalleek:

[Darth Paul]

Other way around, the shark is doing the jumping.

In OOTSworld, shark jumps you!!

EDIT: Darnit, ninja'd. That's what happens when you don't read every page first.

[Peelee]

In OOTSworld, shark jumps you!!
Second verse, same as the first. :smalltongue:

You're thinking of Azure City (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html).

[snowblizz]

And this is why Sharknado is a favourite movie for me.

[Pax_Chi]

"Don't tell me what to do, you patronizing twit!"

She really doesn't have any self-awareness anymore, does she?

I am very much enjoying Haley wield her +5 knife of BS cutting, especially with the Occam's Razor enchantment she's got on it.

[gnomish dwelf]

In Order of the Stick, shark jumps you! beat me to it, but I was busy getting from there to here.

[Darth Paul]

So now "a tv show that went on so long that the writers ran out of good ideas for it" is one that has "jumped the shark."

Like Supernatural.

The Indiana Jones films gave us "nuking the fridge" (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Film/IndianaJonesAndTheKingdomOfTheCrystalSkull). It's the film series' equivalent to shark jumping. YMMV on which films have nuked the fridge, but I nominate the Fast & the Furious series.

[RMS Oceanic]

I beg to differ:

True, but here's how I see it: The Order genuinely expected not to have any of Serini's information when formulating their plan to defeat Xykon. The information would definitely be nice, and no doubt Roy (and Durkon maybe) could incorporate it. But if Serini denies them that information they're no worse off than they were before she attacked. Therefore Haley feels like she has nothing to lose by going all in.

[danielxcutter]

The Order was probably expecting Serini to be dead or at least unavailable given that Serini hadn't responded to any of the Sendings so far and four of the five Scribblers were dead by the time the OotS was even founded.

[dancrilis]

I like Serini but I think Haley had the better of this one - unfortunately it looks like Razor is about to forget everything they know and so leave The Order and Serini having to deal with an amnesiac shark.

[Darth Paul]

Yeah! This Azurite trial Halley's aphasia Roy's afterlife Azurites at sea Godsmoot Andi/Bandanna airship Dwarven council Serini plotline has gone on too far too long!

I spilled my coffee reading this one :smallbiggrin:. Well played indeed.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Thank you Lien, everyone is Friggin DoneTM with Serini being as humanly hobbitly/halflingly frustrating as possible without being actually Evil a Lawful Stupid Paladin and I don't think a shark to the face will actually kill her anyways.

Fixed it for you


Serini's tactic is kind of a "hold yourself hostage" thing - like in Blazing Saddles. Nice.

Except Haley and V aren't "just people of the land, the common clay of the West. You know … morons." jury is still out on Belkar (let a Kobold outwit him), Durkon (trusted a Vampire), Roy (engaged in aerial combat without Feather Fall and Flying , and Elan (equates nudity to invisibility)... V's moron moment required a confluence of terrible events which were literally orchestrated by a faction of pure evil (who we haven't seen the last of, as they have at least one if not two more rounds of Chekov's Gun to trigger).


you imagine the day order of the stick becomes a cartoon?

I have a feeling it will end up very Dragon Ball or Game of Thrones, with the series catching up with the author too fast and many filler episodes being required to compensate for the story not being completed and/or the production company wanting to milk it for as long as they can. Might even go a little One Piece, with entire episodes or even a season of cross-genre what if, dream sequence, rehashing, or historic reenactment (like a season of the Order of the Stick being cast as the Order of the Scribble to tell the unwritten tale of how Soon/Roy, Lirian/Haley, Dorukan/V, Kraagor/Durkon, Serini/Belkar, and Girard/Elan first met and some of their adventures along the way).


I think potions can be used as splash weapons actually.

Pretty sure that requires a feat, but since I have played a halfling that had that feat before level 4, it is very possible that Serini does possess it. That said, fairly sure Razor does not have that feat, so since it would be Razor triggering the splash, not Serini, it would not apply here.


What's a Ray-zergo?
With the pokeball and the question Serini is giving off powerful "every old person in tv" energy. Like my grandma trying to understand pokemon when I was 12.

I was taking it as a joke off of things like Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Frost, and other Ray spells, so spellcasters would by default think anything starting with Ray is a Ray Spell or Spell-like ability (Serinai was just riding around on a Beholder non-intellectual property infringing Argus-like eyeball thingie also to not be confused with the Big Trouble in Little China Eyeball Thingie... which incidentally may be returning in a coming soon sequel or remake).


Conjecture: Serini is actually winning the bluff-off here.

Because she is not actually bluffing about the potion. She is stalling by bluffing about the potion.

But isn't Haley actually winning then, because she isn't actually bluffing but actually stalling to coax Serini into monologuing and allowing the Paladins to have a chance to escape, thereby getting the info they were intending to get (from the Paladins) and the info they didn't intend to get (Serini) at the same time while appearing to be bluffing while calling Serini's stalling bluff as a bluff?

[KorvinStarmast]

I am very much enjoying Haley wield her +5 knife of BS cutting, Yes, and your point in self awareness is agreed.

True, but here's how I see it: The Order genuinely expected not to have any of Serini's information when formulating their plan to defeat Xykon. The information would definitely be nice, and no doubt Roy (and Durkon maybe) could incorporate it. But if Serini denies them that information they're no worse off than they were before she attacked. Therefore Haley feels like she has nothing to lose by going all in. Yep. problem is, Serinis/Sunny attack has cost the party resources to deal with ... and when does the encounter with Xykon happen?

The Order was probably expecting Serini to be dead or at least unavailable given that Serini hadn't responded to any of the Sendings so far and four of the five Scribblers were dead by the time the OotS was even founded. Yep.

[Riftwolf]

I like Serini but I think Haley had the better of this one - unfortunately it looks like Razor is about to forget everything they know and so leave The Order and Serini having to deal with an amnesiac shark.

Can sharks drink? Does breathing alcohol make a shark drunk?

[Hurkyl]

True, but here's how I see it: The Order genuinely expected not to have any of Serini's information when formulating their plan to defeat Xykon. The information would definitely be nice, and no doubt Roy (and Durkon maybe) could incorporate it. But if Serini denies them that information they're no worse off than they were before she attacked. Therefore Haley feels like she has nothing to lose by going all in.
I would expect Haley to be more pragmatic than that.

I'm not trying to argue against the idea going back to where they were before Serini interrupted them is a fine outcome (and they get freed paladins as a bonus). It's certainly better than alternatives such as surrender.

And I would expect Haley to be able to recognize when to cut her losses -- in fact, I think she's generally a little too eager to do so.

I just don't think Haley is the type that needs to trick herself into thinking she has nothing to lose before she can accept that result.

I do think she's the type that might trick herself into thinking she can't win to rationalize taking the loss... but she's much better about not doing that than she used to be and I doubt she's doing that here.

[gatemansgc]

okay absolutely was not expecting razor the shark!

the new art style changes the pokeball colors, no longer red and white like the old comics (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html)

[Doug Lampert]

Serini's tactic is kind of a "hold yourself hostage" thing - like in Blazing Saddles. Nice.

Except when Bart holds himself hostage it's funny. Partly because he lampshades just how stupid it is for that to work.

I'm with others, I think that here, Serini is intended to be annoying, not funny.

[Psyren]

Yeah! This Azurite trial Halley's aphasia Roy's afterlife Azurites at sea Godsmoot Andi/Bandanna airship Dwarven council Serini plotline has gone on too far too long!


I spilled my coffee reading this one :smallbiggrin:. Well played indeed.

"Would you stop pointing out the repetitiveness of the B-Plots and hurry up??" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html) :smallbiggrin:

[Crusher]

I'm trying to think of ways that this *isn't* a bad bluff by Serini. She's an Epic Rogue and smart, so, yes this is going badly and she's stressed but you still wouldn't expect her to come out with a bluff that falls apart that quickly and I've thought of a couple ways in which this makes sense from Serini's point of view. Conveniently, they kind of work together.

1 - Serini went into this ambush thinking the Order thought she was alive and badly needed information from her. The Order (and the readers) know this isn't the case, but Serini might not. She knows the Order tried to contact her with Sending many many many times, has been to a bunch of other Gates, has done major research on the Scribblers and the Gates (they clearly know a good bit of the history behind the gates, even stuff that was a cosmic-level secret), and skipped the initial trap apparently on their way straight to Serini's hideout.

From her perspective, sure, they might think she was dead and were just being both thorough and lucky, but the more paranoid take was that the Order knew she was alive, already knew some of her tricks, and were on their way to get the information out of her that she had been unwilling to share with them.


2. As has been mentioned, Serini isn't bluffing at all. She's stalling. Before heading into her base, Serini felt things weren't going well but that she still had the situation in hand and she just needed a little more time. The Order was closer behind than she thought, but maybe she's still trying to buy that time. What she's stalling for, I'm unsure.

My best guess is she has a xorn or earth elemental friend who is on the way (maybe from an ambush in another tunnel Serini didn't end up taking) to... um, lets say grab the Order's feet so they can't get away (which is why Serini wanted them on the ground) and then knock the cauldron over hopefully splashing the party members and wiping their memories. Serini might be planning on jumping to safety or she might be immune to it somehow (thought probably not, seeing as how she wore gloves when mixing it).

This is kinda nice in that gives Serini multiple ways in which her bluffing makes sense. She thinks *Haley* is bluffing about the Order not wanting the information, plus Serini has no intention of wiping her own memories anyway. However, being surprise-grappled by Razor would be a serious problem, as it would stick her on the ground where she can't get away from the cauldron full of amnesia potions.

[gnomish dwelf]

There was a popular tv show in the seventies called "Happy Days" that went on for muuuuuuuuuch longer than it really should have. Looking back on the show, many fans speculated that the official downturn point of the show was an episode where the main character, Fonzie, does a daring water ski jump over a shark. This actually happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahxG3iPeVcU

So now "a tv show that went on so long that the writers ran out of good ideas for it" is one that has "jumped the shark."

Like Supernatural.

nope, supernatural never jumped the shark.

[Jan Mattys]

It comes from an episode of Happy Days where one of the characters, while riding a motorcycle, jumped over a water tank with a shark in it. That episide is largely seen as a definitive point where the show was more bad than good, so "jumping the shark" as a phrase was born.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahxG3iPeVcU
Inaccurate. There was no motorcycle, nor a water tank.
The rest is on point though :D

[TRH]

2. As has been mentioned, Serini isn't bluffing at all. She's stalling. Before heading into her base, Serini felt things weren't going well but that she still had the situation in hand and she just needed a little more time. The Order was closer behind than she thought, but maybe she's still trying to buy that time. What she's stalling for, I'm unsure.

My best guess is she has a xorn or earth elemental friend who is on the way (maybe from an ambush in another tunnel Serini didn't end up taking) to... um, lets say grab the Order's feet so they can't get away (which is why Serini wanted them on the ground) and then knock the cauldron over hopefully splashing the party members and wiping their memories. Serini might be planning on jumping to safety or she might be immune to it somehow (thought probably not, seeing as how she wore gloves when mixing it).



The thing she mentioned in the last strip was needing to get more stuff from her "bag of tricks" that she had been saving. That could possibly refer to more monsters, but the only specific she mentioned was a replacement crossbow, and she stopped in front of a cabinet, presumably to retrieve additional items. I'm pretty sure she was here for items and can no longer retrieve them now that the Order has reached her sooner than expected.

In any case, in the event she had summoned more monsters to help out, I'm not sure how they would know to meet her in her sanctum and not at the site where she made contact, since it doesn't look like she's had time to communicate remotely since then.

[Psyren]

The Order was probably expecting Serini to be dead or at least unavailable given that Serini hadn't responded to any of the Sendings so far and four of the five Scribblers were dead by the time the OotS was even founded.

Not to mention Xykon having her diary - with no signs of anyone coming after him for it - and (usually) leaving no witnesses.

[Thermophille]

I guess the question about Chekov's Cauldron from the last strip has been answered.

[KorvinStarmast]

Can sharks drink? Does breathing alcohol make a shark drunk? Can sharks use pogo sticks? Would a pogo stick make a shark jump? :smallconfused:

Not to mention Xykon having her diary - with no signs of anyone coming after him for it - and (usually) leaving no witnesses. This. Finding her alive is a bonus unless she's not persuadable, in which case finding her makes her a liability since dealing with her consumes resources and there's a High Level Cleric and and Epic Level Liche on the prowl looking to end their quest for the gate sooner, not later.

[Peelee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahxG3iPeVcU
Inaccurate. There was no motorcycle, nor a water tank.
The rest is on point though :D

Well dang, memory is a helluva thing. I could swear I vividly remember him jumping a shark in a tnak on a motorcycle, and in the parking lot of Al's, no less! Crazy how we can fool. Ourselves sometimes.

[The MunchKING]

the new art style changes the pokeball colors, no longer red and white like the old comics (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html)

As I pointed out earlier, I think it closely resembles a Dive Ball (https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pok%C3%A9_Ball#Types_of_Pok.C3.A9_Balls) thrown upside down.

A fitting choice for an underwater predator like a shark.

[toapat]

I never thought I would see a "bluff off (https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/iaungw/two_guys_bluff_each_other/)," and I am not eager to see it again.
Serini is making no sense, and I have no idea where this is going. Seems like an odd cliffhanger.
Also, where does Lien keep the Pokeball?

same place all the paladins keep their steeds, its just a manifestation of Celestia magic. they can maintain the Pokeball indefinitely but the Pokeball can itself be dismissed.


I guess it's official we can confirm O-Chul doesn't have one (yet) cause if he could bring a horse or something, it sure as heck would have been useful now.

If O-Chul gets to pick his mount, it would be a horse.

if the gods pick it, it would be a Living Construct Apparatus of the Crab.

[Shining Wrath]

Well dang, memory is a helluva thing. I could swear I vividly remember him jumping a shark in a tnak on a motorcycle, and in the parking lot of Al's, no less! Crazy how we can fool. Ourselves sometimes.

What made it epic fail was that he kept his leather jacket on.

[Wraithfighter]

Count me as being on Team "Lien is just the best".

I mean, who hasn't wanted to solve their problems by chucking a shark at it? :D

[Metastachydium]

I mean, who hasn't wanted to solve their problems by chucking a shark at it? :D

O-Chul, I'd presume.

[schmunzel]

For those of us who are not perfectly familiar with English idioms, what's the meaning of this one ?

Nowadays its more or less synonym with nuking a fridge ...

jumping the shark means that .... <edit> Pelee had the better explanation

sch

[MaverickMopete]

Pro Tip For Serini (from another oldster): when you decide to play the bluff game, know who you are trying to bluff. Underestimating the opposition in the game of bluff and counterbluff can get really expensive when you are at the poker table. Likewise in other scenarios.

You can't con a con artist. And if you're going to try, you'd best be better than them.

Remember how quickly Haley saw through Xykon's (or rather, Redcloak's) "con" back in the Battle of Azure City?

[TRH]

You can't con a con artist. And if you're going to try, you'd best be better than them.

Remember how quickly Haley saw through Xykon's (or rather, Redcloak's) "con" back in the Battle of Azure City?

She got conned pretty hard by Bozzok, though, handing him a ton of money to raise his dead thieves that he decided to pocket and use for an assassination attempt on her. Although I suppose one could blame Celia for that, but Haley doesn't seem to have been any wiser to that particular bit of skulduggery.

[PontificatusRex]

Well dang, memory is a helluva thing. I could swear I vividly remember him jumping a shark in a tnak on a motorcycle, and in the parking lot of Al's, no less! Crazy how we can fool. Ourselves sometimes.

You're not that far off actually - you're conflating two separate episodes. Fonzie did do a big motorcycle jump in Al's parking lot fairly early in the series. The later episode was basically the writers saying "Hey, remember that time with the motorcycle jump? Let's do that again, but in Hawaii! On waterskis! With a shark!"

[Jay R]

Now my wizard wants to research a ray of zergo spell.

[masamune1]

If this leads to memories being wiped then Lien is the dumbest Paladin since Miko.

[MaverickMopete]

She got conned pretty hard by Bozzok, though, handing him a ton of money to raise his dead thieves that he decided to pocket and use for an assassination attempt on her. Although I suppose one could blame Celia for that, but Haley doesn't seem to have been any wiser to that particular bit of skulduggery.

To be fair, though, that wasn't a con so much as it was a legal obligation thanks to the arrangement created by Celia. And if she hadn't straight up killed Crystal, Bozzok wouldn't have turned her into a golem. (Or would he? DUN DUN DUN...)

[Peelee]

You're not that far off actually - you're conflating two separate episodes. Fonzie did do a big motorcycle jump in Al's parking lot fairly early in the series. The later episode was basically the writers saying "Hey, remember that time with the motorcycle jump? Let's do that again, but in Hawaii! On waterskis! With a shark!"

At least I feel a lot better about my memory from a few decades back not being completely unreliable.

[Fyraltari]

At least I feel a lot better about my memory from a few decades back not being completely unreliable.
As long as you don't remember him jumping over a dead Nelson Mandela...

[Crusher]

As long as you don't remember him jumping over a dead Nelson Mandela...

I feel like "the Mandela Effect" isn't really a thing beyond the general concept "people are kind of stupid sometimes".

[Peelee]

I just found out that Henry Winkler loves water skiing, and was even a water ski instructor around that time. He apparently did the stunt himself. Conversely, he had no idea how to ride a motorcycle and all shots of him riding had the bike in Park and on a wheeled dolly they pulled with a rope, to make it seem like he was riding. Or in the case of the jump, a stunt man.

[Metastachydium]

As long as you don't remember him jumping over a dead Nelson Mandela...

(Is it wrong that I'd watch the hell out of that?)

[Blue Dragon]

*POP*

My only problem now is to wait for the next update, which will not be soon enough!

[Bilbo Baggins]

Also, Lien could have summoned her shark all this time?!?
I guess it's official we can confirm O-Chul doesn't have one (yet) cause if he could bring a horse or something, it sure as heck would have been useful now.

I'm thinking she just managed to wrestle the non-trademarked creature ball out from her pocket last comic, which is what the "almost... got it..." was about.

[gnomish dwelf]

*POP*

My only problem now is to wait for the next update, which will not be soon enough!

i feel you, if I could travel to the future one of the first things I would do would be watching what happened to the order of the stick

[Rynjin]

If this leads to memories being wiped then Lien is the dumbest Paladin since Miko.

Why?

Haley has a point: Serini's memories, and even life, are basically irrelevant to the Order's goals.

Unless you mean if everyone else gets splashed? That would be a minor setback, but not huge; Roy and Durkon are still out of the splash zone and can fill them in on the important bits.

It's better than letting the high level Rogue with millions of gold in random magic items, apparently, continue to **** around with everyone while the existence of the world is at stake and time is of the essence.

[TuringTest]

So much for Serini having foreseen all contingencies! :smallbiggrin:

Also, bluffing duel!!

We've had caster fights, vampire-dwarf duels, and quite some epic one-on-one fighter duels. I'd love to see a bards duel (though Elan with his dad has some elements of that), and one ranger duel before the story wraps up, although having these seem unlikely.

[masamune1]

Why?

Haley has a point: Serini's memories, and even life, are basically irrelevant to the Order's goals.

Unless you mean if everyone else gets splashed? That would be a minor setback, but not huge; Roy and Durkon are still out of the splash zone and can fill them in on the important bits.

It's better than letting the high level Rogue with millions of gold in random magic items, apparently, continue to **** around with everyone while the existence of the world is at stake and time is of the essence.

I did mean everyone getting hit yes, but also- according to Serini- a mere vial can wipe out a weeks worth of memories, so this could actually be pretty bad if enough of it gets on everyone as they could end up forgetting years of their lives...and Lien just threw a shark at it.

[TuringTest]

I did mean everyone getting hit yes, but also- according to Serini- a mere vial can wipe out a weeks worth of memories, so this could actually be pretty bad if enough of it gets on everyone as they could end up forgetting years of their lives...and Lien just threw a shark at it.

Wouldn't they need to drink the potion for it to have any effect? I don't think any of them are going to wait for it to fall into their open mouths, no matter how astonished they are by the situation. :smalltongue:

[skim172]

I just found out that Henry Winkler loves water skiing, and was even a water ski instructor around that time. He apparently did the stunt himself. Conversely, he had no idea how to ride a motorcycle and all shots of him riding had the bike in Park and on a wheeled dolly they pulled with a rope, to make it seem like he was riding. Or in the case of the jump, a stunt man.

Here's a great interview (sort of) where Winkler relates how the incident was partly due to his parents pressuring him to showcase his water skiing talents on the show (https://www.npr.org/2011/09/10/140333623/actor-henry-winkler-plays-not-my-job).

[Ruck]

Inb4 everybody with the crazy theory that Serini IS indeed related to Belkar, but per her own admission, she has forgotten about him but remembers he forgot about this critical piece of information.

Still betting against "Serini and Belkar are related" until someone can give me an explanation of what that would add to the story beyond "Wouldn't it be cool if."


I read it as her not trusting the Order and Paladins not to mess it up somehow. Their flaw in her eyes is their willingness to risk it all to win.

That's clearly what it is, and yet.


I beg to differ:

Maybe, but what Haley says is true-- they had no expectation Serini was even alive when they came up here, so even though she does have useful information, their original plans did not include that.


Conjecture: Serini is actually winning the bluff-off here.

Because she is not actually bluffing about the potion. She is stalling by bluffing about the potion.

Stalling to what end? I mean, I guess she's not not stalling, but these seem more like desperation tactics at this point than that she has the cavalry on the way.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahxG3iPeVcU
Inaccurate. There was no motorcycle, nor a water tank.
The rest is on point though :D

I was secretly hoping the link was going to this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jm6B31HKBw).


She got conned pretty hard by Bozzok, though, handing him a ton of money to raise his dead thieves that he decided to pocket and use for an assassination attempt on her. Although I suppose one could blame Celia for that, but Haley doesn't seem to have been any wiser to that particular bit of skulduggery.

Considering she put together the entire deal, I would think that is precisely where the blame lies.

[Peelee]

Here's a great interview (sort of) where Winkler relates how the incident was partly due to his parents pressuring him to showcase his water skiing talents on the show (https://www.npr.org/2011/09/10/140333623/actor-henry-winkler-plays-not-my-job).

I love WWDTM. "From my perspective, as a non-fly-fisher, this seems astoundingly pointless."

Also, Henry Winkler should be cherished by all.

[KorvinStarmast]

Considering she put together the entire deal, I would think that is precisely where the blame lays. Yeah, that was Celia's little bit of spotlight there, and Haley was dragged kicking and screaming into the deal (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0621.html).
Why can't I remember the name of that little smart guy at the thieves guild? :smallfrown:

[Ruck]

Yeah, that was Celia's little bit of spotlight there, and Haley was dragged kicking and screaming into the deal (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0621.html).
Why can't I remember the name of that little smart guy at the thieves guild? :smallfrown:

Hank.

(His name is not 10 characters, so I'll just add an aside that Celia's behavior in the Greysky City arc was probably the most I've ever been annoyed/frustrated with one of the Good Guys. Maybe a couple of Roy moments, like assuming he knows what the Deva is going to tell him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html) and refusing to listen, aside.)

[Peelee]

Yeah, that was Celia's little bit of spotlight there, and Haley was dragged kicking and screaming into the deal (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0621.html).
Why can't I remember the name of that little smart guy at the thieves guild? :smallfrown:

Hank? It's Hank.

[ThatNickGuy]

Now that's what I call a "splash page."

[woweedd]

Ah, Rogue battles. So prone to devolving into the whole "I know that you know that I know..." game. Good on Lien for cutting through that.

[skim172]

I love WWDTM. "From my perspective, as a non-fly-fisher, this seems astoundingly pointless."

Also, Henry Winkler should be cherished by all.

As someone who first encountered him as Barry Zuckerkorn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtntuB4dp0U), attorney(?)-at-law - I agree.

[Peelee]

As someone who first encountered him as Barry Zuckerkorn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtntuB4dp0U), attorney(?)-at-law - I agree.

The man knocks it out of the park in everything he's ever been in. Have you seen Barry? It's pretty great (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CpEVhcXOohQ) (slight spoilers for a relationship in the show).

[Ruck]

The man knocks it out of the park in everything he's ever been in. Have you seen Barry? It's pretty great (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CpEVhcXOohQ) (slight spoilers for a relationship in the show).

Barry is so good. Wonderful scene last season where Barry tells Gene about the worst thing he's ever done.

[bravelove]

Gods it's been ages since we've seen the paladin animals, paladin with a shark still continues to be the best thing in existence ever. Also good to see Haley continue to be really smart and genre-savvy, not surprising but still worth noting because I love her.

[Matt620]

Not sure how this is a bad move on Lien's part.

Haley's correct about a number of things:
The group had no need for Serini's knowledge.
It's not like she'd give it to them.
Even if she told them about the Gate, Haley would have every reason to believe Serini is lying.

Razor being flung at Serini would at worse, get Haley's boots and maybe thighs drenched in the poison. Even if you believe it's actual amnesia poison, it would need to be ingested or injected: A contact poison would've already lost it's potency considering the damn cauldron isn't covered. This is just an obnoxious blowhard coming up with a bad bluff on the fly. I kinda hope Razor chews through Serini and the Order rescues the paladins and we get the grand battle we've been waiting for.

[BungleBee]

Awesome comic. No one expects sharks in a cave!

[Larsaan]

So much for the lame-ass escape attempt, eh? And really, after all her condescension, getting outsmarted by a paladin is probably the most poetic way Serini could have lost this.

[danielxcutter]

Hank.

(His name is not 10 characters, so I'll just add an aside that Celia's behavior in the Greysky City arc was probably the most I've ever been annoyed/frustrated with one of the Good Guys. Maybe a couple of Roy moments, like assuming he knows what the Deva is going to tell him (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html) and refusing to listen, aside.)

Celia honestly feels like that DMPC who screws you over at every possible opportunity.

Actually the entire arc feels like “the DM” being a jackass to “the players” and yes I am very much aware that this is a webcomic.

[Ezekiel]

Razor's looking awesome with the art upgrade!

I think we should all thank Serini for her years of service (and for being such a good sport) by giving her a nice safe retirement on the Outer Planes by plane shifting her to...Mechanus. :smalltongue:

[Peelee]

Celia honestly feels like that DMPC who screws you over at every possible opportunity.

Celia feels like an ethical counterpoint to the murderhobo style.

[gnomish dwelf]

So, I am alone in liking Celia and not despising Serini (I do not loathe Serini but I do consider Serini is an unpleasant detour and hope she cleans up her act quickly)

[Peelee]

So, I am alone in liking Celia and not despising Serini (I do not loathe Serini but I do consider Serini is an unpleasant detour and hope she cleans up her act quickly)

Nah, I'm with you on both counts.

[Wraithfighter]

I do think that Lien's move has a chance of going wrong, because yeah, Serini that's been calmed the F down would be an asset in fighting against Xykon...

...but the problem was that they were in a stalemate, and while Serini's clearly been shown to be outmatched here, she is refusing to surrender. Besides, this is Serini's home turf, she's resourceful, and she's a rogue. The thing to do in that case is keep the pressure on, don't give the target a chance to squirm out of the situation by thinking up plan Q with stuff they had lying around somewhere.

And, look, even if it's not perfect strategy? I'm fine with Lien being just freakin' done with Serini's nonsense right now. She's watched her only companion get poisoned and theoretically put in mortal jeopardy, she's been poisoned herself by said ambusher, she's been mocked to her face by a old ninny who seems more interested in letting the big bad win than actually protecting anyone, imprisoned, mocked, threatened with a significant personal violation (yes, I count memory erasure as being that), sees said old ninny who used to be a hero of legend and is now acting like a paranoid, prideful old fool being so obsessed with having some sort of victory over not just freakin' calming down for one freakin' moment...

...yeah, as far as I'm concerned, I've got no real issue with Lien going "screw all this, have a literal ton of angry, divine, razor-toothed retribution fall on your head" on Serini.

[Ruck]

Celia honestly feels like that DMPC who screws you over at every possible opportunity.

Actually the entire arc feels like “the DM” being a jackass to “the players” and yes I am very much aware that this is a webcomic.

I certainly have a personal pet peeve about dealing with holier-than-thou know-nothing know-it-alls, so Celia's behavior in Greysky was obviously the kind of thing that would rub me the wrong way.

The Greysky arc struck me as "Celia knows she's not an adventurer and unfamiliar with this world, but still disregards Haley's instructions despite that, gets them in serious danger, does the bare minimum to help Haley get out of it, then pins the material responsibility for resolving the conflict on Haley personally and acts self-righteous about doing so."


Celia feels like an ethical counterpoint to the murderhobo style.

And see, in that arc Celia feels to me, much as Miko "hides behind her holier-than-thou morality as an excuse to treat other people like crap (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html)," like she hides behind her holier-than-thou morality as an excuse to pawn off the consequences of her actions onto other people.

[skim172]

Celia feels like an ethical counterpoint to the murderhobo style.

In real life, any RPG-style adventuring party would quickly end up in jail, on the gallows, fugitive from the law, destitute, starving, lost in the wilderness, eaten by wildlife, suffering from exposure, exiled, and excommunicated.

[danielxcutter]

In that order?

[gnomish dwelf]

Nah, I'm with you on both counts.

it feels warm and fuzzy when a mod agrees with one :xykon: specially one that is a dragon and, apparently, either a steel dragon or a silver dragon, which are the coolest good-aligned dragons in the core monster manual from 2nd edition.

[PontificatusRex]

In real life, any RPG-style adventuring party would quickly end up in jail, on the gallows, fugitive from the law, destitute, starving, lost in the wilderness, eaten by wildlife, suffering from exposure, exiled, and excommunicated.

Are you trying to tell us the you don't regard The A Team as a realistic narrative?

I PITY THE FOOL!

[Peelee]

And see, in that arc Celia feels to me, much as Miko "hides behind her holier-than-thou morality as an excuse to treat other people like crap (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0251.html)," like she hides behind her holier-than-thou morality as an excuse to pawn off the consequences of her actions onto other people.

Except when she's right (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0564.html). And Haley doesn't listen (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html), which leads to further "Celia being right (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0569.html)". And the de facto leader who insists its her way or the highway gives absolutely zero reason (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html) is apparently not at fault at all.

Haley is a bad leader who refuses to reign in the one person holding them back and slaps down the one person doing their best to help. And apparently, this instead comes off as Celia being holier-than-thou and an annoying DMPC who blocks the players.

Sorry, I'm not going to join you in your camp.

Are you trying to tell us the you don't regard The A Team as a realistic narrative?

.... But the A-Team were fugitives from the law.

[Snails]

It comes from an episode of Happy Days where one of the characters, while riding a motorcycle, jumped over a water tank with a shark in it. That episide is largely seen as a definitive point where the show was more bad than good, so "jumping the shark" as a phrase was born.

The Fonz got on water skies, something he had done maybe once before, and jumped the shark enclosure wearing his leather jacket. Cuz the jacket was part of his oh-so-cool look. And this was on a dare, from a professional water skier, who chickened out on his own attempt.

It is not only a matter of being more bad than good, albeit that is a big piece of it. IMO "Jump the shark" also carries the connotation of the writers having completely lost track of what genre their story is going to be. Thus not only is the show bad, but it is bad in completely impossible to predict ways, because no one seems to care anymore.

Let's consider the larger context: This was, after all, a show where where the Fonz wielded his thumb in a battle of wills to defy the mindpowers of a space alien -- that was deemed acceptable enough. Yet the writers strayed so far beyond that, viewers suddenly said "Huh?!?"

Let that sink in.

[Snails]

.... But the A-Team were fugitives from the law.

Right. In fact, at some point in their careers, I believe the A-Team checks off every box of skim172's list except "eaten by wildlife".

[Ruck]

Except when she's right (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0564.html). And Haley doesn't listen (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html), which leads to further "Celia being right (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0569.html)". And the de facto leader who insists its her way or the highway gives absolutely zero reason (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html) is apparently not at fault at all.

Haley is a bad leader who refuses to reign in the one person holding them back and slaps down the one person doing their best to help. And apparently, this instead comes off as Celia being holier-than-thou and an annoying DMPC who blocks the players.

Sorry, I'm not going to join you in your camp.

I'm not asking you to join me in anything. And everything you described happened before Greysky City.

When they approach Greysky City, Haley clearly tells her it's a dangerous place where people get killed for trivial reasons (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html). Celia disregards that despite her pacifism and being unable to be raised from the dead, despite knowing she's not cut out for the adventuring world. She knows she's not suited for this and doesn't know this place as well as Haley, yet she also thinks she knows best. Hence "know-nothing know-it-all."

Then, when the consequences for Celia's insubordination come up, she makes Haley deal with all of them and acts like she's in the right for making Haley do so. I have a problem with people who can't take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

Also, if we're talking leadership (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html), Celia is certainly willing to demand Haley handle Belkar in the way she wants her to, but I don't see Celia submitting herself for the proper punishment for insubordination and endangering the party for her Greysky City adventure. Seems to me like she wants all the benefits of pinning responsibility on Haley without actually having to submit herself to Haley's authority. Which just tracks with what I already said.

[Lexible]

Stalling to what end? I mean, I guess she's not not stalling, but these seem more like desperation tactics at this point than that she has the cavalry on the way.

Yeah… I am just assuming there is some as-yet-to-be-revealed reason (hello next strip!) why she is wasting everyone's time with an apparently lame buff.

But maybe I am off in this conjecture, and Rick is actually just making a point about a slow and undignified descent into senility.

[Ruck]

Yeah… I am just assuming there is some as-yet-to-be-revealed reason (hello next strip!) why she is wasting everyone's time with an apparently lame buff.

But maybe I am off in this conjecture, and Rick is actually just making a point about a slow and undignified descent into senility.

I don't think I'd go as far as "just," but I do think we've reached the point where Serini's plans and backup plans have failed, and she's having to improvise on the spot with whatever she's got. Hence, desperate.


Right. In fact, at some point in their careers, I believe the A-Team checks off every box of skim172's list except "eaten by wildlife".

It's been a long time since I've seen any of The A-Team, but the "fugitives from the law" part is baked right there into the premise, in the opening narration.

[Peelee]

I'm not asking you to join me in anything. And everything you described happened before Greysky City.

When they approach Greysky City, Haley clearly tells her it's a dangerous place where people get killed for trivial reasons (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html). Celia disregards that despite her pacifism and being unable to be raised from the dead, despite knowing she's not cut out for the adventuring world. She knows she's not suited for this and doesn't know this place as well as Haley, yet she also thinks she knows best. Hence "know-nothing know-it-all."

Then, when the consequences for Celia's insubordination come up, she makes Haley deal with all of them and acts like she's in the right for making Haley do so. I have a problem with people who can't take responsibility for the consequences of their actions.

Also, if we're talking leadership (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0540.html), Celia is certainly willing to demand Haley handle Belkar in the way she wants her to, but I don't see Celia submitting herself for the proper punishment for insubordination and endangering the party for her Greysky City adventure. Seems to me like she wants all the benefits of pinning responsibility on Haley without actually having to submit herself to Haley's authority. Which just tracks with what I already said.

Haleys refusal to listen to Celia results in Greysky City. And, when asked why they should absolutely not go down there, Haley just says "trust me", despite that she has given Celia no reason at all to trust her. Her description also tracks perfectly well with "simply traveling with Belkar". Sure, Celia's plan blew up in her face, but going by the information she had on hand (eg: Celia: "Haley why shouldn't I go down there?" Haley: "Because shut up, why."), it was hardly a bad idea. Hell, the clerics would probably have had no issue at all rezzing Roy, her only mistake was misunderstanding Grubbwiggler's service. You certainly can't fault her for all the troubles they had with the Thieves Guild, since Haley refused to tell her that Haley was a massive liability in that area with a huge price on her head. Hell, if anything, telling Celia where the temples were and to only go and make sure she got a bona fide cleric would have helped, but hey, Haley wants to keep her past secret for purely selfish reasons withiut letting anyone else even know there is any secret, so it's all... Celia's fault, somehow. How dare she.

[Psyren]

I guess the question about Chekov's Cauldron from the last strip has been answered.

In the best possible way too, an ineffectual and failed eleventh-hour bluff rather than a comedy of errors resulting in an inadvertent dunking of a principal. Go Giant!

[Ruck]

Haleys refusal to listen to Celia results in Greysky City. And, when asked why they should absolutely not go down there, Haley just says "trust me", despite that she has given Celia no reason at all to trust her.

Her exact words are "It's a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets." Seems like something a pacifist who can't be raised from the dead would avoid if they had an ounce of sense about them. Certainly wouldn't want to sneak off behind the back of the one teammate who can defend them to visit it.


Hell, the clerics would probably have had no issue at all rezzing Roy, her only mistake was misunderstanding Grubbwiggler's service.

Huh. It's almost like that kind of mistake is entirely foreseeable when a deeply naïve person wanders into a deeply dangerous place. Like it was also foreseeable that a bunch of liars and murderers would immediately go back on the deal said naïve person made with them. Celia apparently trusts the Thieves Guild more than she trusts Haley. Maybe even values their lives more than Haley's, since she wasn't willing to "betray her principles" to save Haley's life, but she'll gladly sell out Haley to save the lives of the people who were just trying to kill the two of them. I guess I have a problem with people who think "violence in self-defense against a lethal threat" is bad, but "selling out your teammates and allies to protect a bunch of evil crooks and murderers" is good.


You certainly can't fault her for all the troubles they had with the Thieves Guild

Sure I can. She made the choice to go somewhere she was told was very dangerous, and everything that happened since then stemmed from that.

You haven't even tried to convince me she ever actually took responsibility for her own actions there, which I think only underlines my point here. Celia can demand Belkar and Haley face consequences for their actions, but then skips out on facing her own, even pins them on someone else. "Consequences for thee, not for me" never struck me as particularly lawful or good.


so it's all... Celia's fault, somehow. How dare she.

Yes, the consequences of Celia's actions are her own fault. Glad we agree. She doesn't seem to think so, though.

As a coda, it wasn't like she was a character I disliked before this arc, or anything-- not a particular favorite of mine, but no one I had any reason to dislike. The Greysky City arc, however, felt like it took all the worst potential traits of a character like Celia and turned them up to 11. It's like the story took everything I found obnoxious about Roy (the self-righteousness, the certainty of being the smartest person in the room even when he's not, the unwillingness to listen to others) and then also removed his sense of responsibility.

[BloodSquirrel]

Haleys refusal to listen to Celia results in Greysky City. And, when asked why they should absolutely not go down there, Haley just says "trust me", despite that she has given Celia no reason at all to trust her. Her description also tracks perfectly well with "simply traveling with Belkar". Sure, Celia's plan blew up in her face, but going by the information she had on hand (eg: Celia: "Haley why shouldn't I go down there?" Haley: "Because shut up, why."),

...except that Haley says quite a bit more than that. Your description of that strip is just flat-out untrue.

Also, Celia never suggested one course of action that Haley could have taken to deal with Belkar. She demanded that Haley do something, but she had no idea what she was asking Haley to do and refused to do anything herself. Not even something like "Let's ditch him so that at least we aren't associating with him anymore".

For all of her willingness to give speeches about how much more moral she was, she wasn't even so much as willing to take the moral responsibility of advocating for a specific course of action.

[BloodSquirrel]

Yeah… I am just assuming there is some as-yet-to-be-revealed reason (hello next strip!) why she is wasting everyone's time with an apparently lame buff.


Why? The narrative has been very clear so far: Serini is a lousy planner, her ambush went tits-up, and she's been acting out of increasing desperation since then. Every character in the strip who has commented on it- including Serini herself- agrees.

Meanwhile, people have been predicting that she was going to pull some kind of ace out of her sleeve for a while now, and it has continued to not happen.

[Shoelessgdowar]

As I pointed out earlier, I think it closely resembles a Dive Ball (https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pok%C3%A9_Ball#Types_of_Pok.C3.A9_Balls) thrown upside down.

A fitting choice for an underwater predator like a shark.

Actually, Dive Balls have no white half. I believe, based on your own link, it is in fact a Net Ball (not enough red accents for Great Ball nor a Lure Ball, not enough yellow accent nor thematic for a Moon Ball, all other balls with blue, Dive Ball & Beast Ball, are all blue, or primarily another color like gray or orange)


Now my wizard wants to research a ray of zergo spell.

Be careful, Zerg spells, even 0th level ones, are difficult to cast if you aren't insectoid.


As someone who first encountered him as Barry Zuckerkorn (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtntuB4dp0U), attorney(?)-at-law - I agree.

Do you think he is/was an Attorney-in-fact and not licensed to practice? Never saw him in the role, so not familiar with it, but if he isn't just someone granted power of attorney, he is most likely an Attorney-at-Law.

[Angelalex242]

Someday, I want the giant to put a laser beam on that mount. It's traditional.

[Ruck]

Do you think he is/was an Attorney-in-fact and not licensed to practice? Never saw him in the role, so not familiar with it, but if he isn't just someone granted power of attorney, he is most likely an Attorney-at-Law.

I believe he is in fact an actual attorney at law in the show, although the quality of his lawyering (and who knows how many times he's been censured) may call that into question.

[Peelee]

[
Her exact words are "It's a dangerous place where people get killed for having gold in their pockets." Seems like something a pacifist who can't be raised from the dead would avoid if they had an ounce of sense about them. Certainly wouldn't want to sneak off behind the back of the one teammate who can defend them to visit it.

She's traveling with someone who kills eople for having candy bars. Actually, strike that, he didn't even know about the candy bad until later and conjectures that the next gnome he murders won't even have candy. Greysky City seems downright safe by comparison.

And speaking of, not only does Haley have to be downright pushed like crazy to give Belkar any repurcussion whatsoever for killing indiscriminately (her stellar arguments against include "no u"), but she also says and does absolutely nothing when Belkar talks about future indiscriminate murders. If we want to talk about foreseeable consequences of deep naiveté, shocker, Belkar kills again and screws up their entire plan. Greysky City would never have happened if Haley tried to reign Belkar in to start with, so if you want to go with "people are responsible for unforeseeable things other people did that happen as a result of their actions," then Haley has a mighty heavy albatross around her neck and is responsible for the whole gamut. But Haley is free from consequence because she didn't come off as annoying.

Also, Celia never suggested one course of action that Haley could have taken to deal with Belkar. She demanded that Haley do something, but she had no idea what she was asking Haley to do and refused to do anything herself. Not even something like "Let's ditch him so that at least we aren't associating with him anymore".

For all of her willingness to give speeches about how much more moral she was, she wasn't even so much as willing to take the moral responsibility of advocating for a specific course of action.
Part of Roy's defence to his actions regarding Belkar, to the actual gates of heaven, were that he could keep a handle on him. Haley was with the group just as long as Belkar, so she would have seen firsthand how Roy dealt with him. She had past experience, and she wanted to call the shots, but without any of the responsibilities that come with it. Again, when confronted with "do something about it, leader," she opted to go with "nah, you do it". She brushed it off.

It frankly baffles me that "Good leader, you should get the murderer to stop murdering, or at least find some sort of deterrent or consequence for murders he's already done" requires the person suggesting it to have full responsibility to figure out what to do. And let's not pretend Haley woudlnt be able to figure out anything herself, because as soon as Belkar kills the Oracle, she kicks him out. That's hardly big brain thinking that only occurred in a rare flash of brilliance, that's a pretty obvious move to make, but she just couldn't be bothered to do that. Not just because of the silly little reason of Belkar murdering people wantonly. It's not like Haley is supposed to be a Good character and take issue with stuff like that, right? Stuff like that only matters when it affects her, like when the Oracle she's about to use gets killed.

But, again, Celia did things like "get people to stop killing each other". Imean, how annoying is that? What a jerk.
Do you think he is/was an Attorney-in-fact and not licensed to practice? Never saw him in the role, so not familiar with it, but if he isn't just someone granted power of attorney, he is most likely an Attorney-at-Law.

I don't think power of attorney is what you think it is. But yes, Barry Zuckerkorn is a licensed attorney.

[Erys]

Also, Lien could have summoned her shark all this time?!?


I feel you, I totally agree... and for those that think Lien is shackled... its obvious he finally freed himself.

May have been mentioned, but if not...

Lien wasn't 'escaping', she was grabbing her pokEball. She hides it behind her head when Serini pops back in the room.

[Shoelessgdowar]

So, I am alone in liking Celia and not despising Serini (I do not loathe Serini but I do consider Serini is an unpleasant detour and hope she cleans up her act quickly)

Nah, I'm with you on both counts.

I get Serini, she is misguided, definitely jaded and cynical, but that is okay. Celia was a pain in the behind, but she was acting as a proxy Roy on Estrogen (steroids would have made her more aggressive, might not be a perfect equivalent, but I work with what I know and is popular enough to make sense). Miko enraged me, I loathe Lawful Stupid. I have played a Rogue alongside Paladins that were ethical and moral without being deranged imbeciles, I know it can be done, Miko represented all the worst, dumbest, most prejudiced and judgemental lawful players I ever met... I also hate whoever raised her to be that way, and I am so glad no one "Raised" her.


Someday, I want the giant to put a laser beam on that mount. It's traditional.

Okay Doctor Evil, no need to bug GitP for a Bajilliongajillionzillion dollars and Sharks with Fricken Laser Beams. Just cause his name is Rich, doesn't mean he can afford your ransom.

[goodpeople25]

Frankly on their own I understand if not agree on Celia deciding it was worth trying to check out Greysky city, that she disregarded Haley's assertions, that she ended their conversation in resignation, that she left in the middle of the night while Haley was seemingly asleep, that she viewed her plan's success as a foregone conclusion and a win that Haley would get over, that she made obvious tactical and observational errors, that she claimed a stake in the well-being of Roy's body and their supplies, or the various betrayals of trust and displaying of her various shortcomings involved in those actions.

When you take it altogether however it becomes a lot harder to swallow and even if you still understand or agree after all that it in no way erases the responsibilities and consequences of those actions.

[Peelee]

Frankly on their own I understand if not agree on Celia deciding it was worth trying to check out Greysky city, that she disregarded Haley's assertions, that she ended their conversation in resignation, that she left in the middle of the night while Haley was seemingly asleep, that she viewed her plan's success as a foregone conclusion and a win that Haley would get over, that she made obvious tactical and observational errors, that she claimed a stake in the well-being of Roy's body and their supplies, or the various betrayals of trust and displaying of her various shortcomings involved in those actions.

When you take it altogether however it becomes a lot harder to swallow and even if you still understand or agree after all that it in no way erases the responsibilities and consequences of those actions.

I'm not saying Celia isn't responsible for her actions or the consequences. I am saying that people who rail against Celia for being "an annoying DMPC who blocks the players" or "being holier than thou" or being a "pain in the rear" and yet have no issue at all with Halley's morally-dubious-at-best callous disregard for the welfare of anyone in their path and hand-washing of anything her companion did are not people that I will see eye to eye with.

[Ruck]

She's traveling with someone who kills eople for having candy bars. Actually, strike that, he didn't even know about the candy bad until later and conjectures that the next gnome he murders won't even have candy. Greysky City seems downright safe by comparison.

Okay, so we agree, Celia made a bad decision because she thinks she knows more than she does and is hopelessly naïve about the world she's in. The difference is, I think she should own up to it instead of saying "Well, you're a thief, so actually it's fine that you take responsibility for my actions."


It frankly baffles me that "Good leader, you should get the murderer to stop murdering, or at least find some sort of deterrent or consequence for murders he's already done" requires the person suggesting it to have full responsibility to figure out what to do. And let's not pretend Haley woudlnt be able to figure out anything herself, because as soon as Belkar kills the Oracle, she kicks him out. That's hardly big brain thinking that only occurred in a rare flash of brilliance, that's a pretty obvious move to make, but she just couldn't be bothered to do that. Not just because of the silly little reason of Belkar murdering people wantonly. It's not like Haley is supposed to be a Good character and take issue with stuff like that, right? Stuff like that only matters when it affects her, like when the Oracle she's about to use gets killed.

Is your case "Haley didn't take sufficient responsibility for Belkar, so it's fine that Celia loses Roy's body and nearly gets this half of the party killed, then pushes responsibility for fixing that onto Haley?" Because I can agree that Haley didn't manage Belkar well-- her acknowledgement that she needs all the allies she can get right now, even unreliable murderhobos, is an explanation, but hardly solves the issue-- but that does not absolve Celia in the way you seem to think it does.


But, again, Celia did things like "get people to stop killing each other". Imean, how annoying is that? What a jerk.

Considering she was perfectly willing to let those people kill Haley until she came up with an alternate idea, yeah, I stand by what I said.

[BloodSquirrel]

Part of Roy's defence to his actions regarding Belkar, to the actual gates of heaven, were that he could keep a handle on him. Haley was with the group just as long as Belkar, so she would have seen firsthand how Roy dealt with him.

There's a big difference between seeing someone do something and being able to do it yourself. Roy had enough presence to keep Belkar (somewhat) in line via force of personality. Haley couldn't.



She had past experience, and she wanted to call the shots, but without any of the responsibilities that come with it. Again, when confronted with "do something about it, leader," she opted to go with "nah, you do it". She brushed it off.

No, Haley did not want to call the shots. She never expressed any desire before that point to be in charge. She became the leader because she was separated from the rest of her party, and the only other high-level adventure around was Belkar. She kept "calling the shots" because Celia had zero useful input and her one actionable idea was to go into Greysky, which ended just as badly as Haley said it would.



It frankly baffles me that "Good leader, you should get the murderer to stop murdering, or at least find some sort of deterrent or consequence for murders he's already done" requires the person suggesting it to have full responsibility to figure out what to do.

It really shouldn't, because two of the recurring themes one finds when studying leadership are that A) Leaders often have to deal with a limited set of options, with none of them being good and B) A leader should expect and encourage their subordinates to be able to offer solutions, not just complain about things.



And let's not pretend Haley woudlnt be able to figure out anything herself, because as soon as Belkar kills the Oracle, she kicks him out.

You mean when he was too sick to argue the point?



But, again, Celia did things like "get people to stop killing each other". Imean, how annoying is that? What a jerk.


Worked out great for all of those gnomes, huh?

[Peelee]

Considering she was perfectly willing to let those people kill Haley until she came up with an alternate idea, yeah, I stand by what I said.

Let's see, was that before or after she risked her life to save Haley (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html)? Oh, right, it was after. Yeah, shame on her for doing exactly what the most tactical minded person in the strip thought was the right call. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html)

Seriously, you are being massively uncharitable, and that's what I have an issue with. Not with you specifically but with the general trend of people being as uncharitable as possible towards one character and being as charitable as possible towards another.

[Ruck]

I'm not saying Celia isn't responsible for her actions or the consequences. I am saying that people who rail against Celia for being "an annoying DMPC who blocks the players" or "being holier than thou" or being a "pain in the rear" and yet have no issue at all with Halley's morally-dubious-at-best callous disregard for the welfare of anyone in their path and hand-washing of anything her companion did are not people that I will see eye to eye with.

So, I think this is getting into something interesting that may explain where our divergent perspectives come from. I'm gonna try to provide some insight into my own thinking here.

A big part of my reasoning here and distaste for Celia's actions has come with my own age; as I've gotten older, I've become less of an idealist (which is not to say I don't have principles) and more of a pragmatist and especially a consequentialist. In short, you're responsible for the consequences of the things you do, and it's more important to take the actions that allow you to do the most good in the world, rather than try to uphold the principles behind those actions even when doing so rigidly will cause consequences that betray those principles.

I can understand why Haley thinks they need Belkar around, even as unreliable as he is, because her belief is that the reality of the situation, the pragmatic necessity, is to keep the party together as much as possible and that their situation is so precarious she even needs an unreliable ally like him. I do not think she reined in Belkar well, or at all, but given her broader goals, I can understand why she was reticent to take more serious action.

I struggle to understand how Celia can put pacifism over saving her own teammate's life. I struggle moreso given that the situation they are in is the result of the actions Celia took behind Haley's back and given that "putting everyone in danger" is a foreseeable consequence of going by yourself to a dangerous place. I struggle moreso given that a self-proclaimed pacifist should not be venturing somewhere they are warned is violent and dangerous alone. And I struggle even more given that, in the final analysis, Celia still pins all the responsibility for fixing the situation on Haley, and justifies it with some holier-than-thou moralizing about Haley being a thief.

She can say what she will about principles of pacifism and dignity of life, but she was perfectly willing to let a guild of Evil people kill her teammate, possibly destroying any chance the Party had of reuniting and resurrecting Roy, for the principle of... saving lives? That's the kind of incongruous thinking I can't get behind, the kind where following your principles leads to foreseeable consequences that also betray those principles.

What if Belkar never came out of his coma and Celia just watched Bozzok and Crystal murder Haley-- especially since they weren't sure if or when Durkon would be coming to resurrect her? Sure, Celia would have doomed the Order, and possibly the world by extension, but hey, at least she didn't betray her principles.

(EDIT: I've never seen it, but from what I know of The Bridge on the River Kwai, Celia reminds me here of the British Colonel Nicholson, who insists on finishing the bridge as per his principle of upholding British excellence and whatnot, even though more broadly such a thing would, well, help Britain's enemies in the war.)


Seriously, you are being massively uncharitable, and that's what I have an issue with. Not with you specifically but with the general trend of people being as uncharitable as possible towards one character and being as charitable as possible towards another.

Meanwhile, I find that you are being overly charitable, to the point where the main thrust of my argument-- that Celia takes actions on her own, against what she is advised, that cause a very dangerous situation, and then deflects all responsibility for the consequences of doing so onto others-- has not been rebutted at all. To the extent you've addressed it, it seems you think Celia was justified in a way that I do not think she was.

[Peelee]

I'm going to home in on one specific part of your post, for reasons that will immediately become obvious.
A big part of my reasoning here and distaste for Celia's actions has come with my own age; as I've gotten older, I've become less of an idealist (which is not to say I don't have principles) and more of a pragmatist and especially a consequentialist.
Conversely, as I have gotten older, I've become even more idealistic.

[gnomish dwelf]

this is ironic, my idealism is pragmatic, my pragmatism is consequentialist and my consequentialism is idealistic.

[Ruck]

I'm going to home in on one specific part of your post, for reasons that will immediately become obvious.
Conversely, as I have gotten older, I've become even more idealistic.

It's funny. I think my actual convictions in my ideals have become stronger with age, but I also think that I have a better sense of how to bring those ideals into being in the world, so I am willing to take actions that may not immediately seem in line with those principles, if I expect the consequences of those actions to serve those principles.

Celia strikes me more as someone who has rules she lives by and doesn't deviate from them, even when refusing to deviate brings about foreseeable results that would betray the principles that she used to set those rules.

But then, my outlook is more Chaotic, in the sense that I think upholding my values is more important than following a set of rules, even if those rules were based in those values (because rules are never applicable to every situation).

Of course, it also helps that, like Haley (and in part for experiences that would steer well beyond the scope of this discussion thread), self-preservation is an important value to me, too. Hard to do much good in the world if you're dead.

[Crusher]

The Fonz got on water skies, something he had done maybe once before, and jumped the shark enclosure wearing his leather jacket. Cuz the jacket was part of his oh-so-cool look. And this was on a dare, from a professional water skier, who chickened out on his own attempt.

It is not only a matter of being more bad than good, albeit that is a big piece of it. IMO "Jump the shark" also carries the connotation of the writers having completely lost track of what genre their story is going to be. Thus not only is the show bad, but it is bad in completely impossible to predict ways, because no one seems to care anymore.

Let's consider the larger context: This was, after all, a show where where the Fonz wielded his thumb in a battle of wills to defy the mindpowers of a space alien -- that was deemed acceptable enough. Yet the writers strayed so far beyond that, viewers suddenly said "Huh?!?"

Let that sink in.

I think there’s an a argument that Happy Days was the major TV show to stray most dramatically and most randomly from its genre and original premise. Like, if Friends had a really serious arc about Joey enlisting in the Marines and doing a tour of duty in Iraq, it would have been less weird than some of the stuff Happy Days did.

Edit - Life on Mars is probably a strong contender here, too.

[Ruck]

I think there’s an a argument that Happy Days was the major TV show to stray most dramatically and most randomly from its genre and original premise. Like, if Friends had a really serious arc about Joey enlisting in the Marines and doing a tour of duty in Iraq, it would have been less weird than some of the stuff Happy Days did.

Edit - Life on Mars is probably a strong contender here, too.

It is really funny to think that Happy Days is a show that starts as a slice of 50s nostalgia and by the end has spun-off a show about an alien living on Earth.

[Peelee]

It's funny. I think my actual convictions in my ideals have become stronger with age, but I also think that I have a better sense of how to bring those ideals into being in the world, so I am willing to take actions that may not immediately seem in line with those principles, if I expect the consequences of those actions to serve those principles.

It's funny, but that's how I'd describe myself too. Probably a more comic-topical way would be that I think I'd like Fight the good fight (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html) best.

[Ruck]

It's funny, but that's how I'd describe myself too. Probably a more comic-topical way would be that I think I'd like Fight the good fight (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1138.html) best.

I've given some thought to where I'd end up on there, and it's probably somewhere between there and "Words aren't as important as people." Although I also believe in all of us caring and doing our part (mostly the latter; caring is a feeling, doing our part is an action), and have a very strong conviction in the importance of truth and justice (without getting off-topic into the origins of that particular phrase).

[Wraithfighter]

It's interesting to compare Haley and Roy in terms of leadership ability, because Haley isn't an awful leader or anything. She's smart, cunning, has a good grasp of strategy and, when push comes to shove, she will tell "Chaotic" to go get bent in favor of "Good". If someone is inclined to follow her, she'll do an excellent job of leading them.

But that's kinda a load-bearing if there, and what tends to make Roy a better leader overall than Haley. If someone's not inclined to listen to Haley, she's doesn't have the ability or patience to change their mind most of the time. She couldn't keep Belkar under control, she was unable to mend bridges with the other Resistance groups in Azure City, she barely even tried convincing Hinjo that he should retreat with them. Roy tends to be good at doing that sort of thing, both because he has the patience to really work at getting through to hostile groups and trying to reason with them, as well as being physically imposing enough to back up any "do what I say or else" type deals.

That's probably a big part of why Roy has at least a moderately firm leash on Belkar, at least pre-sincere-character-growth point. Belkar knew that, if push came to shove, Roy would turn him into an oddly shaped crater... but that it would be hard to take things that far, so Belkar could enjoy annoying the hell out of the Lawful Good leader without risking too much punishment while also getting to kill lots of mooks.

But again, Haley's not a bad leader. We've seen it well in this arc, with Roy out of the picture she steps in ably, issues orders, takes initiative and works hard to keep the pressure on Serini so that she can't escape. She's just not going to be able to talk her down because even if she had put any points into Diplomacy, she just doesn't have a lot of patience for people who attack her and her friends, and she'd much rather just knock out the old biddy so that Roy and Elan can talk her down.

[gnomish dwelf]

so... Haley is the lancer?

[Ruck]

That's probably a big part of why Roy has at least a moderately firm leash on Belkar, at least pre-sincere-character-growth point. Belkar knew that, if push came to shove, Roy would turn him into an oddly shaped crater... but that it would be hard to take things that far, so Belkar could enjoy annoying the hell out of the Lawful Good leader without risking too much punishment while also getting to kill lots of mooks.

This is a good point and one I didn't touch on. Part of Haley not taking more actions to restrain Belkar is that she just doesn't have the capability to physically do so, whether through the Mark of Justice or hitting him with a big sword repeatedly.

(And I'll add that she specifically mentions to Belkar when she kicks him out that she only kept him around as long as he was useful-- again, a practical consideration, the best of two bad choices given the things he does and his general unreliability.)


so... Haley is the lancer?

That's always been pretty clear, I thought.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Let's see, was that before or after she risked her life to save Haley (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html)? Oh, right, it was after. Yeah, shame on her for doing exactly what the most tactical minded person in the strip thought was the right call. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html)

Seriously, you are being massively uncharitable, and that's what I have an issue with. Not with you specifically but with the general trend of people being as uncharitable as possible towards one character and being as charitable as possible towards another.

Pot meet kettle.

Flight speed of 50, there was no risk of being struck by medium or smaller creatures with melee weapons. You are being far to generous to the hypocritical rules lawyer, who is an accessory to assault with a deadly corruption, accessory to fraud, accessory to breach of contract, violation of attorney-client privilege, and far more. Celia killed her boyfriend, attempted to kill her clients, and doesn't deserve any charity after how she repeatedly acted. Haley was selected by Roy, and took responsibility for her own actions, for Celia's actions, and Belkar's actions. Celia takes no responsibility for her own actions, while thrusting the consequences of her actions on others. You are the one giving Celia infinite charity, while acting like Belkar was unjustified in his actions, that Haley was wrong about her statements, but ignoring Celia's culpability. Celia should have stepped in, told the Oracle that he was a crook and charlitan, that he had to either reimburse all payments or permanently forfeit his life to Belkar to fulfill the prophecy with no resurrections, raise deads, nor reincarnations, as the Death must be final to fulfill Belkar's inquery, but she helped the Oracle instead of helping her clients. She then proceeded to attempt to abandon her client when her client was in no state to care for himself. Celia acts holier-than-thou, she expects everyone to violate their alignment for her ideals, she can't ever admit fault, and when she is proven wrong she throws blame on others.

I didn't hate Celia, I thought she was naive but not hate worthy, but you proved Celia is just as bad as Miko and Xykon.

[gnomish dwelf]

That's always been pretty clear, I thought.


To me Vaarsuvius and Durkon were good alternative lancers, I saw Haley become a lancer once, but I thought the party dynamics were fluid enough for Vaarsuvius or Durkon to take the lead if need be and have Haley as a follower.

[Peelee]

Pot meet kettle.

Flight speed of 50, there was no risk of being struck by medium or smaller creatures with melee weapons. You are being far to generous to the hypocritical rules lawyer, who is an accessory to assault with a deadly corruption, accessory to fraud, accessory to breach of contract, violation of attorney-client privilege, and far more. Celia killed her boyfriend, attempted to kill her clients, and doesn't deserve any charity after how she repeatedly acted. Haley was selected by Roy, and took responsibility for her own actions, for Celia's actions, and Belkar's actions. Celia takes no responsibility for her own actions, while thrusting the consequences of her actions on others. You are the one giving Celia infinite charity, while acting like Belkar was unjustified in his actions, that Haley was wrong about her statements, but ignoring Celia's culpability. Celia should have stepped in, told the Oracle that he was a crook and charlitan, that he had to either reimburse all payments or permanently forfeit his life to Belkar to fulfill the prophecy with no resurrections, raise deads, nor reincarnations, as the Death must be final to fulfill Belkar's inquery, but she helped the Oracle instead of helping her clients. She then proceeded to attempt to abandon her client when her client was in no state to care for himself. Celia acts holier-than-thou, she expects everyone to violate their alignment for her ideals, she can't ever admit fault, and when she is proven wrong she throws blame on others.

I didn't hate Celia, I thought she was naive but not hate worthy, but you proved Celia is just as bad as Miko and Xykon.

I'm going to take that for everything it's worth.

[Forum Explorer]

Celia honestly feels like that DMPC who screws you over at every possible opportunity.



Celia feels like an ethical counterpoint to the murderhobo style.

Did he stutter? :smalltongue: :smallwink:


More seriously, I'm more inclined to side with you here Peelee. But kinda in the sense of Eugane Greenhilt ala 'you were the highest level PC there, it was your fight to lose.'


Celia is painfully naive about adventuring, has strong opinions, and is fully willing to act on them. So when she asks 'why can't we just go to Greysky?' it should be obvious that she needs a lot more than a 'it's dangerous, trust me,' to not go through with that idea. Haley refused to effectively communicate. Yeah, Celia is the one who actually ****** up, but like a child eating drugs, I put the blame on whoever left the drugs in a spot where the kid could get at them.

[Spriteless]

Belkar trying to get everyone to cool down and negotiate is the most surreal thing I've seen all month.

Why shouldn't he? Halflings are people, unlike Kobolds and Humans. /s

[Peelee]

Did he stutter? :smalltongue: :smallwink:.

Ya know, I can't actually against that.

[Ruck]

To me Vaarsuvius and Durkon were good alternative lancers, I saw Haley become a lancer once, but I thought the party dynamics were fluid enough for Vaarsuvius or Durkon to take the lead if need be and have Haley as a follower.

Haley has long been the Order's designated second in command, and in particular, her type of intelligence and outlook provide a meaningful, complementary contrast to Roy's. Durkon and Vaarsuvius have the raw power to be second in command, but neither is really a leader.


Yeah, Celia is the one who actually ****** up, but like a child eating drugs, I put the blame on whoever left the drugs in a spot where the kid could get at them.

Celia is an adult.

[DaOldeWolf]

For this discussion of Celia vs. Haley, I think that neither of the three party members are blameless. Celia did some dumb stuff and so did Belkar and Haley just couldnt reign them in. She was still their leader so she is still accountable for the mistakes of their subordinates. Mistakes were made all around is all I am saying.

[CyanWhisp]

Also, where does Lien keep the Pokeball?

It's what she was reaching for in the last comic when we all thought she was trying to unlock the shackles.

[Peelee]

Haley has long been the Order's designated second in command, and in particular, her type of intelligence and outlook provide a meaningful, complementary contrast to Roy's. Durkon and Vaarsuvius have the raw power to be second in command, but neither is really a leader.

Not the best pillar to support a position, though.

The goal, in this case, was to keep true to Haley's previously-established character. And her established character was a rule-breaking individualist with trust issues and a moderate contempt for authority who self-selected herself as second-in-command by swindling the other party members with no expectation of it ever coming up. It would have made no sense to violate that existing character 60% of the way through the story just so we could tick the "Strong Female Leader Depicted" box for the comic. That's not who Haley is, and I don't need to force her growth in that direction because it's OK to not be a leader.

[danielxcutter]

Pot meet kettle.

Flight speed of 50, there was no risk of being struck by medium or smaller creatures with melee weapons. You are being far to generous to the hypocritical rules lawyer, who is an accessory to assault with a deadly corruption, accessory to fraud, accessory to breach of contract, violation of attorney-client privilege, and far more. Celia killed her boyfriend, attempted to kill her clients, and doesn't deserve any charity after how she repeatedly acted. Haley was selected by Roy, and took responsibility for her own actions, for Celia's actions, and Belkar's actions. Celia takes no responsibility for her own actions, while thrusting the consequences of her actions on others. You are the one giving Celia infinite charity, while acting like Belkar was unjustified in his actions, that Haley was wrong about her statements, but ignoring Celia's culpability. Celia should have stepped in, told the Oracle that he was a crook and charlitan, that he had to either reimburse all payments or permanently forfeit his life to Belkar to fulfill the prophecy with no resurrections, raise deads, nor reincarnations, as the Death must be final to fulfill Belkar's inquery, but she helped the Oracle instead of helping her clients. She then proceeded to attempt to abandon her client when her client was in no state to care for himself. Celia acts holier-than-thou, she expects everyone to violate their alignment for her ideals, she can't ever admit fault, and when she is proven wrong she throws blame on others.

I didn't hate Celia, I thought she was naive but not hate worthy, but you proved Celia is just as bad as Miko and Xykon.

For what it’s worth I don’t think she’s really to blame for Roy’s death; needing to summon her for that very specific reason is somewhat of an outlier even by adventurer standards.

And is also another example of “wow, it’s a really good thing that OotS isn’t based on a real game” if you ask me but that’s a slightly different question.

[KorvinStarmast]

Awesome comic. No one expects sharks in a cave! I like the way you phrased that.


I certainly have a personal pet peeve about dealing with holier-than-thou know-nothing know-it-alls, so Celia's behavior in Greysky was obviously the kind of thing that would rub me the wrong way. In my first career, people like that got themselves and other people killed, so I have a similar distaste for such people. And most of what you posted about Celia tracked with my distaste for her being a crap team mate during that arc. Haley's imperfect leadership skills are their own topic.

It is really funny to think that Happy Days is a show that starts as a slice of 50s nostalgia and by the end has spun-off a show about an alien living on Earth. UFO's and aliens were a big deal in the 1950's. I've still got a copy of that book that the USAF eventually published from that era about UFO's. :smallsmile: Got it at a garage sale years ago.

[Forum Explorer]

Celia is an adult.

If I'm taking a bunch of adults on a wildlife tour then I'm responsible for their safety, no matter how stupid they may be in trying to pet a lion.

[KorvinStarmast]

If I'm taking a bunch of adults on a wildlife tour then I'm responsible for their safety, no matter how stupid they may be in trying to pet a lion. But Haley was not taking Celia on a wild life tour: Celia was on a quest to get her boyfriend raised from the dead. Your sense of proportion is lacking.

[danielxcutter]

Haley was not a perfect leader, but Celia was so utterly frustrating because what she does feels less natural for her and more “the DM is making excuse to screw the players over”.

I know this is a comic, but due to being based on D&D it’s not hard to draw parallels to actual gaming tables for some things. This is one of them.(Incidentally, I think Hilgya is better done as a DMPC; she’s just helpful enough to justify being there and she drops out of the party as soon as she’s unnecessary.)

[Ruck]

If I'm taking a bunch of adults on a wildlife tour then I'm responsible for their safety, no matter how stupid they may be in trying to pet a lion.


But Haley was not taking Celia on a wild life tour: Celia was on a quest to get her boyfriend raised from the dead. Your sense of proportion is lacking.

Agreed. Celia also is the one who insisted on the trip. (And if Haley's responsible for her, like I said earlier, why didn't Celia submit herself for discipline to her commanding officer for violating a direct order and endangering the entire team?)

I could easily respond to this:


Celia is painfully naive about adventuring, has strong opinions, and is fully willing to act on them. So when she asks 'why can't we just go to Greysky?' it should be obvious that she needs a lot more than a 'it's dangerous, trust me,' to not go through with that idea.

with this from Haley's perspective: "I told my pacifist teammate who can't be raised from the dead that Greysky City is a very dangerous place where life is cheap and people are killed for little reason. I thought that would be enough to deter her from going, given that she is a pacifist who can't be raised from the head."


For what it’s worth I don’t think she’s really to blame for Roy’s death; needing to summon her for that very specific reason is somewhat of an outlier even by adventurer standards.

Agreed. Now that it's been brought up, though, it is another reminder that Celia is ignorant about how humans and the adventuring world work, and should probably put more trust in the person who actually has that experience instead of being sure she knows best and going off on her own.


Not the best pillar to support a position, though.

Ehh. See, I don't disagree with anything Rich said there, but I also didn't say anything untrue, either. Haley has been the Order's second-in-command for a long time (if initially only for the pay bump), and the rest of the party looks to her for leadership after Roy dies. The fact that she didn't become the Strong Female Leader who united the various resistance groups doesn't contradict that, and Rich is right that it wouldn't be in character for her to become the different kind of person that that would require.

Plus, let's not forget this footnote:


Also, Haley reunited the party and resurrected Roy. I'd take her track record over Nale's any day, and I don't see anyone questioning his legitimacy as a leader.

Aside, I think the conversations with Roy after he's resurrected are very telling on the topic of the Greysky City arc: Haley (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) laments that she wasn't a better leader while Roy was gone, and Roy tries to reassure her that she did better than she gives herself credit for. Celia (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html) makes a comment that she's not cut out for adventuring, but she doesn't reflect on any of her mistakes; she mostly casts further aspersions on Haley.

[gnomish dwelf]

Haley has long been the Order's designated second in command, and in particular, her type of intelligence and outlook provide a meaningful, complementary contrast to Roy's. Durkon and Vaarsuvius have the raw power to be second in command, but neither is really a leader.


To you Durkon and Vaarsuvius are just raw power? Durkon is extremely wise to be a powerful priest and vaarsuvius is extremely intelligent to be a mighty wizard... and both belong to long lived races, they may not have been designated as lancers, but they can become lancers at any point in the future. This is not to say that Haley isn't talented as a leader, she is.


For this discussion of Celia vs. Haley, I think that neither of the three party members are blameless. Celia did some dumb stuff and so did Belkar and Haley just couldnt reign them in. She was still their leader so she is still accountable for the mistakes of their subordinates. Mistakes were made all around is all I am saying.

This is exactly what I think, its all a sitcom and a dramedy of interpersonal relations, proving that the giant knows how to do characterization.


Not the best pillar to support a position, though.

I dont understand this sentence.

[Peelee]

Haley was not a perfect leader, but Celia was so utterly frustrating because what she does feels less natural for her and more “the DM is making excuse to screw the players over”.

I know this is a comic, but due to being based on D&D it’s not hard to draw parallels to actual gaming tables for some things. This is one of them.

This is indeed commentary, but it's not exactly in your favor, going by your first sentence. Don't Split the Party commentary (preceding strip 551) specifically calls out how the author is amazed at how people playing D&D resort to lethal violence at the drop of a hat for any and all problems, and how Celia is the voice of people who might object to such immediate escalation to killing.

If you're frustrated by Celia from a D&D gameplay perspective....

Plus, let's not forget this footnote:

Comparing to Nale is pretty low-hanging fruit, let's be fair here. That footnote seems like it was regarding the sexism discussion in that thread.

Also, I didn't even realize that thread was closed until I saw you couldn't simple quote it with the post id button to link back to it. Some of the mod perks are low key super nice.

[Forum Explorer]

But Haley was not taking Celia on a wild life tour: Celia was on a quest to get her boyfriend raised from the dead. Your sense of proportion is lacking.

Not at all. People, even otherwise really intelligent adults, can make really stupid decisions when they are outside their area of expertise, and you need to give them explicit and clear instructions not only to not do those things, but why they shouldn't do those things.

And I mean really, really stupid stuff. Petting a lion isn't really an exaggeration.


Celia is an NPC. And Haley is basically on an escort quest. And as everyone who has ever done an escort mission can tell you, it is your responsibility as the PC to make sure that NPC doesn't get themselves killed. Because they will actively try to kill themselves. Be it walking into every trap you oh so painstakingly avoided, attracting every monster in the dungeon, or standing right in the AoE damaging spell, NPCs cannot be trusted to look after themselves.

Haley does know best in this situation, but she does nothing to control those around her. She might not want to be in charge, but by failing to take charge, she jeopardizes the whole mission. It's kinda like Roy being to blame for failing to bring Durkon along in comic 75. Yeah, the rest of the party was there, but he's the only one who isn't an idiot, so it's up to him to handle things like that.

Similarly with Bozzak. Haley knows better than anyone that Bozzak is unrepentedly evil. And yet she spared his life because what? Celia asked nicely? She should know better. Just kill him anyways, because what is Hank going to do about it? For that matter, what is Celia going to do about it?

[danielxcutter]

Comparing to Nale is pretty low-hanging fruit, let's be fair here. That footnote seems like it was regarding the sexism discussion in that thread.

I was honestly under the impression Nale sucked as a leader.

[137beth]

I'm late to the thread but Im just gonna say that I love Lien!

Also:

There was a popular tv show in the seventies called "Happy Days" that went on for muuuuuuuuuch longer than it really should have. Looking back on the show, many fans speculated that the official downturn point of the show was an episode where the main character, Fonzie, does a daring water ski jump over a shark. This actually happened:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahxG3iPeVcU

So now "a tv show that went on so long that the writers ran out of good ideas for it" is one that has "jumped the shark."

Like Supernatural.
And before the TV show Happy Days, there was an unrelated play of the same name by Samuel Beckett. Despite only being about 90 minutes long, that play also goes on muuuuuuuuuch longer than it really should.

[Ruck]

To you Durkon and Vaarsuvius are just raw power?

I never said that, or anything like that, really.

[Peelee]

I was honestly under the impression Nale sucked as a leader.
That was the point, yeah.

I'm late to the thread but Im just gonna say that I love Lien!
It's never too late to jump on the Lien love train!

[gnomish dwelf]

I never said that, or anything like that, really.

Ok, so, why dont you allow a modicum of possibility that in some circumstance either of them can use their superior mental skills to become the leaders in Roy's absence? (Roy is an unusual fighter, unlike 8 bit theathre he is more than a meat shield and knows how to use architecture in combat, but its Durkon and Vaarsuvius who have traditional inclinations for leading roles if need be)

[Psyren]

Greysky City seems downright safe by comparison.

To be fair, "safer than pre-epiphany Belkar" is a pretty low bar and does not at all translate to safety in general (or sense.) But I don't think she felt in any particular danger - what she was in that moment more than anything else, was impatient and imprudent.

And it would be one thing if Haley hadn't warned her of any danger there at all, but she did, even if she wasn't very specific.

Having said all that - I wasn't the biggest Celia fan either, but I felt that Haley's "send-off" (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html) for her was more than enough as far as a narrative acknowledgement of her mistakes.

[Gurgeh]

Neither V or Durkon are remotely suited for leadership. Durkon is diffident and introspective; he's good in a crisis when he's presented with no choice but to act, but he's otherwise terrible at taking the initiative. V is insecure, deeply lacking in social skills, and far too inclined to take criticism or even simple rudeness too much to heart.

You could probably make a better argument for putting Elan in charge, provided he had a second capable of applying a grown-up filter to his whims.

[Peelee]

For this discussion of Celia vs. Haley, I think that neither of the three party members are blameless. Celia did some dumb stuff and so did Belkar and Haley just couldnt reign them in. She was still their leader so she is still accountable for the mistakes of their subordinates. Mistakes were made all around is all I am saying.
This is my position exactly. I may have focused too much on taking up the cause of "Celia is usually the only one blamed here and I think that is patently unfair", but you've nailed it.

Agreed. Celia also is the one who insisted on the trip.
Apropos of nothing, but someone had to. Haley was twiddling her thumbs regarding raising Roy. Ignoring everything else, that had to be kicked into gear somehow.

[gnomish dwelf]

Neither V or Durkon are remotely suited for leadership. Durkon is diffident and introspective; he's good in a crisis when he's presented with no choice but to act, but he's otherwise terrible at taking the initiative. V is insecure, deeply lacking in social skills, and far too inclined to take criticism or even simple rudeness too much to heart.

You could probably make a better argument for putting Elan in charge, provided he had a second capable of applying a grown-up filter to his whims.

introspection is an element to great wisdom, his zany antics from dendrophobia are the only real character flaw i see that could stop him from being a good leader, as a leader he would be a cautious strategist and tactician, but not necessarily a flawed one... As for V, he may rub people off the wrong way, but he would probably make logical and cunning plans that exploit everyone's strengths and the enemies' weaknesses. Of course, Roy is a military strategist himself so he manages to take the leadership role from them and he shows he is willing to put his flesh in danger for his plans which further cements his leadership, but as lancer, I do see potential in Durkon and vaarsuvius, Elan like Belkar are more useful as tools directed to damage than as leaders.

EDIT: if you want to focus on the character flaws, Haley has trust issues and is greedy, making her unable to trust in her party and give them trust, at least, if she were to be permanent leader and not temporary leader, she is also cunning enough to make things work out at the end as we see in the comics, but Durkon and Vaarsuvius are equally equipped.

[Ruck]

For this discussion of Celia vs. Haley, I think that neither of the three party members are blameless. Celia did some dumb stuff and so did Belkar and Haley just couldnt reign them in. She was still their leader so she is still accountable for the mistakes of their subordinates. Mistakes were made all around is all I am saying.

Backing up to this, I don't disagree that everyone made mistakes. The difference is, Belkar suffered the consequences of his mistakes (the Mark of Justice, would've been kicked out if not for the memory charm); Haley suffered the consequences of hers (nearly getting killed; getting on the hook to fund the Thieves Guild); Celia suffered no consequences, and her solution to the problem was to pin the consequences entirely on Haley. That's where my problem is.

To paraphrase someone else (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html), she never even acknowledged that she could, in fact, be wrong.


This is indeed commentary, but it's not exactly in your favor, going by your first sentence. Don't Split the Party commentary (preceding strip 551) specifically calls out how the author is amazed at how people playing D&D resort to lethal violence at the drop of a hat for any and all problems, and how Celia is the voice of people who might object to such immediate escalation to killing.

I get that, I just think it works more in the context of Belkar murdering whoever they come across because he feels like it, and not in the context of dealing with a criminal organization that is actively trying to kill you.


Comparing to Nale is pretty low-hanging fruit, let's be fair here. That footnote seems like it was regarding the sexism discussion in that thread.

Also, I didn't even realize that thread was closed until I saw you couldn't simple quote it with the post id button to link back to it. Some of the mod perks are low key super nice.

Again, it doesn't have to be high-hanging fruit, because everything I said is still correct. Haley is the Order's second-in-command and the rest of the team do look to her as a leader after Roy dies.

(I tried to figure out a way to link the post even though the thread was closed. It quickly became apparent it was not worth the effort.)


Apropos of nothing, but someone had to. Haley was twiddling her thumbs regarding raising Roy. Ignoring everything else, that had to be kicked into gear somehow.

I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with the argument currently being made that Celia bears no responsibility for what she does on that journey that she started.


Ok, so, why dont you allow a modicum of possibility that in some circumstance either of them can use their superior mental skills to become the leaders in Roy's absence? (Roy is an unusual fighter, unlike 8 bit theathre he is more than a meat shield and knows how to use architecture in combat, but its Durkon and Vaarsuvius who have traditional inclinations for leading roles if need be)

"A modicum of possibility"? Look, it would help if you address what I actually wrote instead of whatever words you decided to add to what I wrote.

Besides, wasn't that part of the point of the whole Don't Split the Party arc? Durkon and Vaarsuvius had a chance to show their leadership capabilities in the absence of Roy; Durkon mostly followed along with Hinjo where he was needed, and Vaarsuvius outright rejected their teammates to work alone.

And let's go back to the beginning of this line of conversation to address this:


so... Haley is the lancer?

Let's look at some of the TV Tropes (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLancer) traits of a Lancer, specifically this one I want to highlight:


If they're also Number Two, they fill in the gaps in the hero's leadership style. If the hero is charismatic, they may be a mastermind. If the hero is levelheaded, they may be headstrong. If the hero is rash, they may be a calming influence.

This fits Haley to a T. Roy is Lawful and has a strong grasp of combat strategy and tactics. Haley is Chaotic and has a strong grasp of deceptive tactics, spotting cons, in general the "thinking like a Rogue" that Roy lacks.

[Ellen]

Someone once asked how to tell if it's great literature.

Answer: Is anyone attacked by a shark?

[gnomish dwelf]

"A modicum of possibility"? Look, it would help if you address what I actually wrote instead of whatever words you decided to add to what I wrote.

sorry, I sense the distress, I am not attempting to be disingenious and the misinterpretation of your words isn't intentional straw man argument, but i really misinterpreted what you said, twice or thrice.


Besides, wasn't that part of the point of the whole Don't Split the Party arc? Durkon and Vaarsuvius had a chance to show their leadership capabilities in the absence of Roy; Durkon mostly followed along with Hinjo where he was needed, and Vaarsuvius outright rejected their teammates to work alone.

my memory is fuzzy, wasn't Vaarsuvius at the moment taken by the three fiends and the evil wizrd ghosts they had placed in him? and well, Durkon followed Hinjo because Hinjo was there to be followed, but what would have he be done if the responsability had been thrown upon him?


And let's go back to the beginning of this line of conversation to address this:



Let's look at some of the TV Tropes (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheLancer) traits of a Lancer, specifically this one I want to highlight:



This fits Haley to a T. Roy is Lawful and has a strong grasp of combat strategy and tactics. Haley is Chaotic and has a strong grasp of deceptive tactics, spotting cons, in general the "thinking like a Rogue" that Roy lacks.


Ok, my words were misinterpreted too, they weren't pure disbelief, they were more like a surprise because it did made sense what ya said... but it wasn't yet fully grasped, now with your quote to tv tropes, it works better. Thanks.

[Peelee]

I get that, I just think it works more in the context of Belkar murdering whoever they come across because he feels like it, and not in the context of dealing with a criminal organization that is actively trying to kill you.
Haley could have negotiated (as Celia shows by negotiating). She preferred to not do so in favor of killing everyone. Most of that was self-defense, I'm not saying she was wrong, but she did have a non-violent option open.

Again, it doesn't have to be high-hanging fruit, because everything I said is still correct. Haley is the Order's second-in-command and the rest of the team do look to her as a leader after Roy dies.

Besides, wasn't that part of the point of the whole Don't Split the Party arc? Durkon and Vaarsuvius had a chance to show their leadership capabilities in the absence of Roy; Durkon mostly followed along with Hinjo where he was needed, and Vaarsuvius outright rejected their teammates to work alone.
You said that Durkon and V weren't really leaders, and while you did not say it outright, I understood that as "compared to Haley". But Haley wasn't really a leader either. She designated herself second in command because she thought it wouldn't ever really come up, and in DStP, she also had a chance to show her leadership capabilities in the absence of Roy, wherein she completely abandoned any attempt to raise Roy and reunite the party. DStP shows that the entire organization doesn't work without Roy at the helm, because none of the others are leaders. You pointed out that she was second in command as if that was an intentional, strategic decision, when it was just a scam because she didn't expect to actually ever command.

I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with the argument currently being made that Celia bears no responsibility for what she does on that journey that she started.
And I have no problem with that. She messed up, she should recognize it.

[gnomish dwelf]

Someone once asked how to tell if it's great literature.

Answer: Is anyone attacked by a shark?

Madameoiselle, you win the internetz today.

[Forum Explorer]

Agreed. Celia also is the one who insisted on the trip. (And if Haley's responsible for her, like I said earlier, why didn't Celia submit herself for discipline to her commanding officer for violating a direct order and endangering the entire team?)

I could easily respond to this:



with this from Haley's perspective: "I told my pacifist teammate who can't be raised from the dead that Greysky City is a very dangerous place where life is cheap and people are killed for little reason. I thought that would be enough to deter her from going, given that she is a pacifist who can't be raised from the head."



Agreed. Now that it's been brought up, though, it is another reminder that Celia is ignorant about how humans and the adventuring world work, and should probably put more trust in the person who actually has that experience instead of being sure she knows best and going off on her own.


Because Haley refused to take charge. If Haley isn't going to exert her authority, why should Celia respect it?



"Well you were wrong, and now everything is messed up. You should have been more explicit."

Seriously, I'm not kidding when I say that is basically how it works so much of the time. Working in a zoo, I'm responsible for everything, no matter how stupid the people around me may be. If I have to physically restrain them, then by God, I'm expected to physically restrain them. The point is that Haley and Celia are not equals. Haley knows the situation better, is better equipped to deal with things, and is actively leading them around. She needed to be the one to step up and take charge, and her failure to do so is what allowed both Belkar and Celia to make their mistakes.


People should listen to the experts around them. But they don't. There is a variety of reasons on why they don't, but the fact is, they oh so often don't listen. They are exception, they are special, it's only a short time, I'll be safe. Whatever. People need to be actively managed to not make bad decisions.

[gnomish dwelf]

You said that Durkon and V weren't really leaders, and while you did not say it outright, I understood that as "compared to Haley". But Haley wasn't really a leader either. She designated herself second in command because she thought it wouldn't ever really come up, and in DStP, she also had a chance to show her leadership capabilities in the absence of Roy, wherein she completely abandoned any attempt to raise Roy and reunite the party. DStP shows that the entire organization doesn't work without Roy at the helm, because none of the others are leaders.

The plot thickens, fully agree, it showed that Roy is the face, heart and leader of the team, he keeps them together... can we imagine which lancer properties Durkon or vaarsuvius would have?

[MReav]

In Soviet Northlands, Shark Jumps You!

[gnomish dwelf]

In Soviet Northlands, Shark Jumps You!

too late, got beaten to it by... dunno, don't remember, but don't feel bad, he beat me too

[Ruck]

People should listen to the experts around them. But they don't. There is a variety of reasons on why they don't, but the fact is, they oh so often don't listen. They are exception, they are special, it's only a short time, I'll be safe. Whatever. People need to be actively managed to not make bad decisions.

Honestly, at a certain point, your argument seems to me like "Celia should simply not have to bear responsibility for her own actions," which is the entire fundamental point I disagree with. Was Haley supposed to physically restrain her before they went to sleep just to be sure? Celia knew what she was doing went against Haley's instructions and wishes, or she wouldn't have snuck off in the middle of the night. She simply thought she knew better than Haley, despite being smart enough to know how little she knows about the adventuring world.


Haley could have negotiated (as Celia shows by negotiating). She preferred to not do so in favor of killing everyone. Most of that was self-defense, I'm not saying she was wrong, but she did have a non-violent option open.

I don't think that was as realistic an option as you seem to think, given the wave of guild members being sent to attack on first sight.

Even Celia's negotiation only worked because she could back it up with the threat of violence (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0617.html), even if she wasn't willing to use it (it's not like Hank and his lackeys knew that)-- and even then it only worked because Haley and Belkar had subdued Bozzok and Crystal by the time Celia and Hank had finished negotiating. Bozzok and Crystal were clear that they wanted Haley dead: If Celia and Hank had come back and Bozzok had the upper hand, do you think he would've signed off on Celia and Hank's compromise?

So if the message of the fight with the Thieves' Guild is "violence doesn't have to be the answer," well, the answer still required a lot of violence to reach the least violent compromise. (A compromise which was also undermined by Bozzok immediately going back on it and still trying to kill Haley, per the DSTP bonus strips.) "Violence doesn't have to be the answer" gets a lot more muddied when it's "Violence doesn't have to be the answer, it just requires a lot of violence to get to a compromise with violent people who will break their word and continue the violence." Indeed, that arc almost serves as an example of why Haley should have killed Bozzok and Crystal then. I think it arguably makes the opposite of the "violence is not the answer" point.


You said that Durkon and V weren't really leaders, and while you did not say it outright, I understood that as "compared to Haley". But Haley wasn't really a leader either. She designated herself second in command because she thought it wouldn't ever really come up, and in DStP, she also had a chance to show her leadership capabilities in the absence of Roy, wherein she completely abandoned any attempt to raise Roy and reunite the party. DStP shows that the entire organization doesn't work without Roy at the helm, because none of the others are leaders. You pointed out that she was second in command as if that was an intentional, strategic decision, when it was just a scam because she didn't expect to actually ever command.

Haley did organize a Resistance group, though, and that's something that takes some leadership skills. And again, she may not be a great leader or a natural-born one, but it's still true that the rest of the party (and at least one faction of the Azurite resistance) looks to her for leadership in Roy's absence, and she does her best to provide it. I don't think we see Vaarsuvius lead or attempt to lead at all in the comic, and Durkon only does so after his ordeal with Durkula and likely only because he knows the most about the situation at hand.

I don't think it's a binary "leader" / "not leader" scale, but we've seen what all of them have done in positions where they could exercise leadership, and Haley is by and large the only one who seems to try to step up. Durkon even explicitly calls her their leader (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html) after Roy dies.


And I have no problem with that. She messed up, she should recognize it.

Cool, I think that seems like a good common ground on which to leave this.


sorry, I sense the distress, I am not attempting to be disingenious and the misinterpretation of your words isn't intentional straw man argument, but i really misinterpreted what you said, twice or thrice.

Ok, my words were misinterpreted too, they weren't pure disbelief, they were more like a surprise because it did made sense what ya said... but it wasn't yet fully grasped, now with your quote to tv tropes, it works better. Thanks.

No problem. It happens.


my memory is fuzzy, wasn't Vaarsuvius at the moment taken by the three fiends and the evil wizrd ghosts they had placed in him? and well, Durkon followed Hinjo because Hinjo was there to be followed, but what would have he be done if the responsability had been thrown upon him?

Well, that only happened in the first place because Vaarsuvius abandoned their allies they thought were holding them back-- this after refusing to help or doing the minimum to help in the situations they were needed-- and as a certain Ancient Black Dragon reminded them, that was a very foolish and arrogant idea.

[OracleofWuffing]

I... This is a shot in the dark, but my brain does stupid things sometimes. You don't think the gate's in the cauldron, do you? Like, if Serini made good on her bluff, it'd draw attention to the cauldron and thus the gate, which would be the one thing Serini's established she doesn't want to do. And all she'd lose out from jumping in would be her memories, which seems like a trade off Serini would accept. Okay, fine, she'd effectively lose the memories of the friendships she's made along the way and that's an equally strong motivator for Serini, but my head won't stop thinking about it.

There, I said it, now my brain will let me sleep tonight.

[Peelee]

I don't think that was as realistic an option as you seem to think, given the wave of guild members being sent to attack on first sight.
Oh, I never said it would be easy. Just that it was an option.

Haley did organize a Resistance group, though, and that's something that takes some leadership skills. And again, she may not be a great leader or a natural-born one, but it's still true that the rest of the party (and at least one faction of the Azurite resistance) looks to her for leadership in Roy's absence, and she does her best to provide it. I don't think we see Vaarsuvius lead or attempt to lead at all in the comic, and Durkon only does so after his ordeal with Durkula and likely only because he knows the most about the situation at hand.
Yeah, but her job as second in command of the Order of the Stick wasn't to organize an unrelated resistance group. It was to lead the Order of the Stick, which she completely abandoned. Heck, the only reason Belkar even stuck around was because for all they knew, he was tied to Roy's corpse with a mile-long metaphorical chain. Vaarsuvius, at the very least, attempted to find the missing members.

[gnomish dwelf]

No problem. It happens.

Well, that only happened in the first place because Vaarsuvius abandoned their allies they thought were holding them back-- this after refusing to help or doing the minimum to help in the situations they were needed-- and as a certain Ancient Black Dragon reminded them, that was a very foolish and arrogant idea.

good point, but I still hope and desire for Vaarsuvius and/or Durkon to try their turn at the wheel, even if its wishful thinking.


I... This is a shot in the dark, but my brain does stupid things sometimes. You don't think the gate's in the cauldron, do you? Like, if Serini made good on her bluff, it'd draw attention to the cauldron and thus the gate, which would be the one thing Serini's established she doesn't want to do. And all she'd lose out from jumping in would be her memories, which seems like a trade off Serini would accept. Okay, fine, she'd effectively lose the memories of the friendships she's made along the way and that's an equally strong motivator for Serini, but my head won't stop thinking about it.

There, I said it, now my brain will let me sleep tonight.

sleep on it, maybe tomorrow you have a different idea.

[Bashhammer]

That last panel gives off VERY strong "Kaio-what?" energy.

[Ruck]

Oh, I never said it would be easy. Just that it was an option.

See the rest of my post, in particular for what exactly it took for that to become an option, and for the fact that it didn't actually work.


Yeah, but her job as second in command of the Order of the Stick wasn't to organize an unrelated resistance group. It was to lead the Order of the Stick, which she completely abandoned. Heck, the only reason Belkar even stuck around was because for all they knew, he was tied to Roy's corpse with a mile-long metaphorical chain. Vaarsuvius, at the very least, attempted to find the missing members.

I suppose that's fair, but in her defense, she didn't even know about the Cloister and was waiting to hear from the other half of the party before making further moves. Seems to me like more of a "You do what you can where you are with what you have" situation than her explicitly abandoning the responsibilities of leadership.


good point, but I still hope and desire for Vaarsuvius and/or Durkon to try their turn at the wheel, even if its wishful thinking.

I actually did think Durkon got a pretty good turn at it when it came to the Dwarven Council of Clans vote-- he knows the most about the vampires' plans, he knows all the rules and procedures, it's on his home turf, he's essentially leading the way at that point. And it came at the right time, too, after an experience that forced him into passivity taught him to be more assertive when the situation requires.

[gnomish dwelf]

That last panel gives off VERY strong "Kaio-what?" energy.

what does "kaiowhat" means?

[The MunchKING]

Now that's what I call a "splash page."

It's GOING to be, when Razor hits the cauldron. :smallbiggrin:


In real life, any RPG-style adventuring party would quickly end up in jail, on the gallows, fugitive from the law, destitute, starving, lost in the wilderness, eaten by wildlife, suffering from exposure, exiled, and excommunicated.

Only if they aren't good at it. Most of them, at least in story are bankrolled by an opposing government in a war scenario. Or maybe pest control, but also sponsored by the local businesses/government. Only the murderhobos would really be in any sort of trouble. Most Parties wouldn't notice much of a difference, except there powers don't work. That's a pretty big one. And I guess they mostly fight Humans now, rather than the myriad of creatures D&D puts out. OK they'd notice a lot of differences.


Right. In fact, at some point in their careers, I believe the A-Team checks off every box of skim172's list except "eaten by wildlife".

I didn't know they got on the wrong side of any organized religion to get excommunicated. ANd I am surprised they made it to the gallows. I though the crime they didn't commit was just "prison sentence" bad, not "hang 'em by the neck until dead" bad. Especially in the '80s.



No, Haley did not want to call the shots. She never expressed any desire before that point to be in charge.

IIRC, technically not true.

After Roy was being a bit demanding with his "expecting basic combat efficency" out of his new team, Haley rounded everyone up and strongarmed them into giving her the number 2 slot. She specifically calls out she'll take charge if something happens to him.


what does "kaiowhat" means?

In Dragon Ball Z Abridged, WHenever Goku activates his Kaio-ken technique, he yells its name. Someone stanging nearby (Usually the villian who's about to get smacked by this powered-up form) hasn't heard of the move, and is trying to ask what it is. Usually, they get punched as they are asking about it.

[Peelee]

See the rest of my post, in particular for what exactly it took for that to become an option, and for the fact that it didn't actually work.
Whether it worked long term or not doesn't really matter; she would almost certainly be able to handle herself better when not engaging the half the Guild deep within their own city with no real reinforcements.

I suppose that's fair, but in her defense, she didn't even know about the Cloister and was waiting to hear from the other half of the party before making further moves. Seems to me like more of a "You do what you can where you are with what you have" situation than her explicitly abandoning the responsibilities of leadership.
I'm not faulting her for not knowing about the Cloister. But she was still in Azure City after several months later doing absolutely nothing to improve the Order's situation. What she had was the capability to go to Cliffport and try to contact Durkon, or find a cleric in the city and try to adventure for cash, or go to the Oracle, or any other possibilities that I just can't think of. She didn't do any of those. She stayed in place long after it should have been clear that she needed to start taking the initiative, and if she hadn't been pushed, she would have happily stayed there until V sold their soul and came and got them. Which, again, is more leadership over the Order itself than anything she was doing. And V is hardly an example of a good leader, as you yourself pointed out.

[gnomish dwelf]

In Dragon Ball Z Abridged, WHenever Goku activates his Kaio-ken technique, he yells its name. Someone stanging nearby (Usually the villian who's about to get smacked by this powered-up form) hasn't heard of the move, and is trying to ask what it is. Usually, they get punched as they are asking about it.

thanks for the explanation...


I actually did think Durkon got a pretty good turn at it when it came to the Dwarven Council of Clans vote-- he knows the most about the vampires' plans, he knows all the rules and procedures, it's on his home turf, he's essentially leading the way at that point. And it came at the right time, too, after an experience that forced him into passivity taught him to be more assertive when the situation requires.

Maybe that is why I want that storyline to be observed at a later date... So will Vaarsuvius get a chance to shine?

Mmm... I shouldn't be here, I joined to ask about my upscaling of some encounters from a module and stayed for the discussions and laughter... and now I am compulsively posting and seeing where else to post, instead of finishing my writing projects or my game projects

[Ekul]

Haley made a slight but understandable negotiating misstep. Rather than simply calling her bluff, what would probably have been a stronger stance was to lay out the terms that the Order considers a victory, and the stakes they are up against:

The Gods are far more dangerous and desperate than Xykon himself.
Destroying the gate and letting it fall into the wrong hands are both likely to end the world for the same reasons.
They are already willing to negotiate with Redcloak if the opportunity arises. Violence is not the only choice
The order does not need Sereni alive for their plans.

I think Haley could have probably made the case that Sereni's position was not beyond negotiation period, that her life could be used to trade for something, just not for disarmament, as the stakes are too high for that.

[Peelee]

Maybe that is why I want that storyline to be observed at a later date... So will Vaarsuvius get a chance to shine?

Going to revisit a quote from the last page here.

I don't need to force her growth in that direction because it's OK to not be a leader.

[Forum Explorer]

Honestly, at a certain point, your argument seems to me like "Celia should simply not have to bear responsibility for her own actions," which is the entire fundamental point I disagree with. Was Haley supposed to physically restrain her before they went to sleep just to be sure? Celia knew what she was doing went against Haley's instructions and wishes, or she wouldn't have snuck off in the middle of the night. She simply thought she knew better than Haley, despite being smart enough to know how little she knows about the adventuring world.



More like Haley's failure to take command is a much bigger mistake than people give it credit for. She was a crappy leader and everything that happened resulted from that flaw.

If physically restraining Celia is what it takes, then yes, that's what she should've done. More realistically, she should've gotten Celia removed from the party as soon as she learned she was a pacifist. Banish her back to the Plane of Air, send her ahead to Cliffport, whatever. At that moment Celia went from asset to liability.

Celia is to blame for making those mistakes, but she should have never been allowed in that situation in the first place. It is stupid and unfair, but that's honestly more how the world works. People do stupid **** and because you didn't actively stop them you are to blame for it.

[gnomish dwelf]

Going to revisit a quote from the last page here.

yeah, its ok not to be a leader, neutrons dont follow nor are they followed and they, like protons, which are followed, have a value of 1, but I want to see Vaarsuvius prove that his intlligence goes byond spellcasting... Let him be a lovecraftian hero for one.

[Shoelessgdowar]

For what it’s worth I don’t think she’s really to blame for Roy’s death; needing to summon her for that very specific reason is somewhat of an outlier even by adventurer standards.

And is also another example of “wow, it’s a really good thing that OotS isn’t based on a real game” if you ask me but that’s a slightly different question.

That specific reason? No, you are right, if that was the only reason it failed.
But Roy couldn't summon her no matter the reason, so since she was supposed to be his "In Case of Emergencies" extraplanar contact, she is responsible because she made herself unable to be summoned ever by him. As it is, she only was summoned by dumb luck, and then she failed repeatedly in her duties to protect Haley and Belkar from various legal complications afterwards.

[Ruck]

More like Haley's failure to take command is a much bigger mistake than people give it credit for. She was a crappy leader and everything that happened resulted from that flaw.

If physically restraining Celia is what it takes, then yes, that's what she should've done. More realistically, she should've gotten Celia removed from the party as soon as she learned she was a pacifist. Banish her back to the Plane of Air, send her ahead to Cliffport, whatever. At that moment Celia went from asset to liability.

"Haley should have foreseen that her pacifist teammate would wander off into a very dangerous location despite being warned not to, and thus restrained her, which she would've accepted without resisting"-- that's your case, right? That makes sense to you as something that Haley should have foreseen and Celia would have found acceptable?

Did Haley even know she could dismiss Celia? Seems like Celia had to explain it to her (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0671.html).


Celia is to blame for making those mistakes, but she should have never been allowed in that situation in the first place. It is stupid and unfair, but that's honestly more how the world works. People do stupid **** and because you didn't actively stop them you are to blame for it.

There's an old saying about everything before the "but" that I think applies here. Frankly, I think you're infantilizing Celia by refusing to give her any responsibility for her own agency.


Whether it worked long term or not doesn't really matter; she would almost certainly be able to handle herself better when not engaging the half the Guild deep within their own city with no real reinforcements.

But it does matter, because it means the solution didn't even work. And, to reiterate, it also matters that the only reason they were able to negotiate at all was because they'd already gained the upper hand through violence and the threat of violence. I seriously doubt if Haley had shouted "Can't we just talk it out?" while Bozzok was sending waves of low-level guild members at her, it would have worked.

[DaOldeWolf]

Backing up to this, I don't disagree that everyone made mistakes. The difference is, Belkar suffered the consequences of his mistakes (the Mark of Justice, would've been kicked out if not for the memory charm); Haley suffered the consequences of hers (nearly getting killed; getting on the hook to fund the Thieves Guild); Celia suffered no consequences, and her solution to the problem was to pin the consequences entirely on Haley. That's where my problem is.

To paraphrase someone else (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0464.html), she never even acknowledged that she could, in fact, be wrong.


I didn't know that all side characters had to get consequences or be treated equally at all. Julio didn't pay for attacking back the defenses of Azure city and I doubt by this point that there will be any retribution. The woman with the headband (can't remember her name right now) was mauled by Xykon and she did nothing wrong. It might not have been a big pay off but she ends up realizing she is kinda useless and that she enabled many deaths. Haley also got to insult her scott free.

And you are making the whole deal for Haley sound worse than it actually was. She got to recover Roy's body. She went back against her word (she told Crystal the deal was off). She got to kill Crystal (twice I might add) while keeping her belongings to use as she saw fit and get Bozzok killed down the line. She even got to level up out of it. It might have pissed her off at the time but the whole thing didn't affect her negatively in the long run.

[The MunchKING]

I'm not faulting her for not knowing about the Cloister. But she was still in Azure City after several months later doing absolutely nothing to improve the Order's situation.

To be fair, while she wasn't helping the Order's situation, she was helping all the people of Azure City she could.

[Peelee]

But it does matter, because it means the solution didn't even work.

And they had knowledge that this would not work beforehand? You're saying the end result warrants not trying, despite that they wouldn't know the end result until, well, the end. It was a viable option. It was not an easy option, but it was certainly viable. Appealing to greed with a Thieve's Guild? It's a good bet.

To be fair, while she wasn't helping the Order's situation, she was helping all the people of Azure City she could.
I don't contest that at all. But since she was the Order's second in command and was supposed to be leading the Order in Roy's absence, not helping the Order at all for months on end with no plans to change anytime soon can certainly be classified as "not really doing her self-appointed job at all", and being a really bad leader for the Order.

[BriarHobbit]

I thought that Serini would have had one last trick. A potion of Glibness. A monster guarding the prisoners. That special item for a rainy day. It turns out that she had nothing and had no idea that she was going to swallowed by a shark. Good issue. Of course, Sunny is probably heading over at some point, but I don't expect a new fight when he arrives.