PDA

View Full Version : Which is more useful in a party?



Frosty
2007-11-20, 01:30 AM
Generally speaking, out of these 3, which arcane spontaneous casting class is the most useful? Warmage, Beguiler, Sorcerer. My group can't seem to decide which one to add.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-20, 01:32 AM
Warmage fills the 'dedicated archer role', via damage spells.

Beguiler is effectively a rogue/caster. Sorcerer is a Batman-lite.

Warmage is inferior to the other two, but my personal preference.

tyckspoon
2007-11-20, 01:36 AM
Sorcerer and Beguiler are probably about equal. Sorcerer can draw from the full Sorc/Wiz spell list for spells known, so he's got a lot more versatility if the player is careful about picking spells. On the other hand, the Beguiler has a lot more spells known, but they're all generally on the same theme and a lot of them are redundant. The Beguiler also has some actual class features other than spellcasting, and a good skill list and allotment of skill points; if you need somebody to handle skillmonkeying as well as provide some magic, you want the Beguiler. The Sorcerer is better if you need a general arcanist.

The Warmage is neat if you want to play around with the idea of 'an archer who uses spells in place of arrows'. If you don't have any other arcane caster in the party yet, he's going to be largely useless.

Skjaldbakka
2007-11-20, 01:37 AM
If you don't have any other arcane caster in the party yet, he's going to be largely useless.

Warmage is not useless in this situation. You don't need a Batman to survive.

tyckspoon
2007-11-20, 01:40 AM
No, but if you want an arcane caster in order to provide flight, invisibility, and charm prisoners who don't to talk, you don't want a Warmage. They're kind of like being an Evocation specialist and barring every other school.

Dausuul
2007-11-20, 01:41 AM
Generally speaking, out of these 3, which arcane spontaneous casting class is the most useful? Warmage, Beguiler, Sorcerer. My group can't seem to decide which one to add.

Either beguiler or sorceror. It really depends on what your party needs. The beguiler is a skill-monkey with battlefield control and save-or-lose magic; the sorceror is, as Skjaldbakka says, Batman lite.

Bottom line: If you don't currently have an arcanist, I'd recommend the sorceror. Utility magic is just too good to give up. If you have that area covered, however, the beguiler is probably a stronger addition to an existing party.

Or you could just go with whichever seems like more fun to play. They're both strong classes, and you won't suffer terribly from picking one over the other, whatever the circumstances.

Frosty
2007-11-20, 01:57 AM
Is the warmage really that useless?

Xefas
2007-11-20, 02:16 AM
Is the warmage really that useless?

It could probably beat a fighter, but then again, an adept could probably beat a fighter. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=831774)

tyckspoon
2007-11-20, 02:24 AM
The Warmage is about as useful as direct damage magic in general. Which is.. not very. An Evocation-specialized wizard is easily the weakest choice of school to specialize in, but he can work around that and still provide the general magical backup that his party expects (assuming he didn't sacrifice the most useful schools.) The Warmage.. can't. He's like Xykon: His answer to everything is to hit with lightning until it breaks. Sometimes, he uses fire instead.

Dausuul
2007-11-20, 02:34 AM
Is the warmage really that useless?

Not useless, but he doesn't fill the role of an arcane caster. The chief strengths of arcanists are utility and battlefield control. The warmage is, as others have said, a peculiar sort of archer.

IMO, the warmage works best in a party that already has an arcanist; then the other arcanist can take control of the battlefield and set things up for the warmage to lay down the hurt.

greenknight
2007-11-20, 02:50 AM
Is the warmage really that useless?

The Warmage Edge is an interesting benefit, as are the bonus Feats (although a regular Wizard gets just as many, and has more choice as to what they will be). But the Warmage suffers from MAD (Int and Cha) and a very poor spell list. That said, a Warmage who managed to obtain the ability to turn/rebuke undead (eg, by taking 1 Cleric level) could do quite well using Divine Metamagic.

Guy_Whozevl
2007-11-20, 02:59 AM
It simply depends on who your other party members are. If you lack a main damage dealer and feel that could be a problem, go Warmage. If you already have a Barbarian or a Warblade, as well as a Rogue, then the Sorcerer is your best bet. If you need general versitility, go with the Beguiler.
Personally, I would choose the Beguiler because of access to UMD, freeing more party roles (you now have Healer covered). Although you are not a true arcane caster in the same vein as a Sorcerer, you have useful utility spells (some of which are Save or Dies) and can use scrolls. Furthermore, you are able to scout, find traps, and serve as the party face (often problematic for smaller parties - who wants to be some random negotiator and miss out on the fun).
To sum it all up, it's all up to playing style. If you like blasting, go Warmage. If you like mixing up your spell list, go Sorcerer. If you like finesse, go Beguiler. If you don't seem to like any of these archetypes, be a Swordsage.:smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2007-11-20, 09:42 AM
The Warmage Edge is an interesting benefit, as are the bonus Feats (although a regular Wizard gets just as many, and has more choice as to what they will be). But the Warmage suffers from MAD (Int and Cha) and a very poor spell list. That said, a Warmage who managed to obtain the ability to turn/rebuke undead (eg, by taking 1 Cleric level) could do quite well using Divine Metamagic.


YOU CAN'T USE DIVINE METAMAGIC WITH ARCANE SPELLS!!! ARCANE SPELLS DON'T WORK THAT WAY!!! MORBO SMASH!!!

Indon
2007-11-20, 10:26 AM
YOU CAN'T USE DIVINE METAMAGIC WITH ARCANE SPELLS!!! ARCANE SPELLS DON'T WORK THAT WAY!!! MORBO SMASH!!!



Isn't there a feat, Alternate Source or somesuch, that does let you do things like that?

cupkeyk
2007-11-20, 10:36 AM
Southern Magician turns a divine spell arcane three times a day and vice versa. So a warmage who somehow manages to get turning ability can southern magician a three spells to qualify for the divine prerequisites of Divine metamagic. But why? A dread Necro gets the turn attempts as a class feature and get Southern magician, but why?

Frosty
2007-11-20, 10:42 AM
Well, the rest of the party is an Initiate of the 7 Cheese, Cleric with the Trickery and Kobold domains I think, and a Knight.

Ulzgoroth
2007-11-20, 10:48 AM
Probably a beguiler then? Does everything you might want a rogue for except put pointy metal in key bits of people, and is a powerful caster.

cupkeyk
2007-11-20, 10:55 AM
The Kobold Cleric is already the skillmonkey. Go with sorc.

Temp
2007-11-20, 11:02 AM
Is the warmage really that useless? You seem to ask this sort of question in a lot of threads. No class is useless, no class will automatically "win at D&D."

Some classes just have more potential than others; in a talented player's hands, a Monk will be more helpful to a party than a poorly-played Wizard.

And no class will always be "more useful" than any other. It's all situational. If the Sorcerer, the Beguiler and the Warmage are all using identical tactics, they could be equally useful.

It's more of a player/design issue than anything.

...Except the Truenamer. That class has blatant design flaws.

cupkeyk
2007-11-20, 11:04 AM
And no class will always be "more useful" than any other. It's all situational. If the Sorcerer, the Beguiler and the Warmage are all using identical tactics, they could be equally useful.

Actually, if they were all blasting, the beguiler would suck. Unfortunately, the Sorc and the Beguiler have other options, the warmage doesn't.

Temp
2007-11-20, 11:07 AM
The Confusion/Color Spray spells are blaster spells, just better*.

*Unless something's mindless, then the Warmage comes ahead. All-in-all, they're probably going to wind up about equal if they're played with the same strategies.

Frosty
2007-11-20, 11:12 AM
What about the Eccletic Learning feature for Warmages? Doesn't it allow them to fill in the Arcanist class?

I wonder if Overwhelm counts as blasting. Btw, how is a cleric ever a skill monkey? With 2+int points per level, he'll be hard pressed put enough points in his normal class skills already.

Temp
2007-11-20, 11:28 AM
Spells will fill the Skillmonkey role for him. Because spellcasting really is the only important thing in this game.

cupkeyk
2007-11-20, 11:39 AM
All he needed from the Kobold domain was the trapfinding class feature anyway.

Frosty
2007-11-20, 11:52 AM
Will he have enough Knocks to get get thru everything is the question. I guess you can just set off traps from a distance

Artanis
2007-11-20, 12:04 PM
What about the Eccletic Learning feature for Warmages? Doesn't it allow them to fill in the Arcanist class?
I don't know for certain, but I really, really doubt it. It may allow them to do a few arcanist-like tricks, but it'd be a hell of a stretch for just a couple spells to allow them to fulfill the role of "arcanist".

Frosty
2007-11-20, 01:50 PM
This is very difficult. There's no archer type in the group at all, but between the Cleric and Wizard we should have some ranged attack power. We've got arcanist covered with the wizard. We've got traps covered (I guess) with the cleric.

Artanis
2007-11-20, 01:53 PM
This is very difficult. There's no archer type in the group at all, but between the Cleric and Wizard we should have some ranged attack power. We've got arcanist covered with the wizard. We've got traps covered (I guess) with the cleric.
Well, if you already have a Wizard and still need a skillmonkey, then a Beguiler would probably be your best bet out of the three you listed.

Dausuul
2007-11-20, 02:05 PM
This is very difficult. There's no archer type in the group at all, but between the Cleric and Wizard we should have some ranged attack power. We've got arcanist covered with the wizard. We've got traps covered (I guess) with the cleric.

It sounds like beguiler is your best bet, since beguilers cover the skillmonkey side of things. Warmage is a decent option, but beguiler is stronger, especially since the beguiler's biggest weakness (undead foes) is neatly covered by the presence of a cleric.

Frosty
2007-11-20, 06:32 PM
Might also need a Face, but a cleric's high charisma might make him a better one...

cupkeyk
2007-11-20, 06:36 PM
Except, you know, he's a kobold. Kobolds=marginalized race.

greenknight
2007-11-20, 07:02 PM
especially since the beguiler's biggest weakness (undead foes) is neatly covered by the presence of a cleric.

Unless the Cleric has the Sun Domain and is a Radiant Servant of Pelor (or working towards it), I wouldn't be so sure of that. Many Divine spells (including the otherwise overpowered Holy Word and similar spells) do nothing significant against Undead. Disrupting Weapon can be good, but by the time the Cleric can cast it, the undead may well have far more HD than the Cleric has caster levels. And Turn/Rebuke undead does start to become much less effective at higher levels as well.

Beguiler is still probably the best bet, but there's a lot to be said for Sorcerer here as well. That said, there's really no reason why you couldn't just have another Cleric or Wizard in the party, and they might just be an even better choice.

Frosty
2007-11-20, 07:09 PM
They say they don't want 2 clerics/wizards. *shrugs*

kyuubigan
2007-11-20, 11:29 PM
Is the warmage really that useless?

I'm running an 8th level warmage right now, and he basically provides crowd control, and has saved the party on at least three seperate occasions, usually by wiping out large amounts of foes at once. Warmages also get warmage edge, which adds their Int bonus to your spell damage. They also have d6 hit die and can wear MEDIUM ARMOR (eventually) without incurring arcane spell failure, which is awesome for an arcane caster. They also get some nice bonus metamagic feats. So no, the warmage is nowhere near useless.

Frosty
2007-11-20, 11:57 PM
Hmm...Mithril Fullplate caster...

It's too bad Warmage edge isn't +int mod damage for each dice rolled. Then it'd actually be something to look at.

kyuubigan
2007-11-21, 12:13 AM
Well there's a feat (Extra Edge) that adds on 1+1/4 class levels to that, which makes my 8th level Warmage adds +7 to the damage of all my spells.

Frosty
2007-11-21, 02:02 AM
It's just that HP scales so much faster than it's not funny. The bonus you get increases very slowly, since ability scores increase slowly. With the feat, it increases at a very low linear rate. Enemy HP goes up faster than Linear I think.

kyuubigan
2007-11-21, 01:14 PM
The way I see it, Beguilers and Warmages are two sides to the same coin. With the Beguiler focusing on misdirection and stealth, while the Warmage is straight forward and more obvious than Bush's incompetance.

Well, if you don't use the Warmage, then I would definitely go with the Beguiler. Bard's skills, sorceror's spell progression and spells per day, bonuses to your spell DC when you catch an opponent flatfooted, feinting with your spells...yeah the Beguiler is one of (if not the most) powerful class in the stealth category. Beguilers can do almost anything...except deal any real damage. When I played a Beguiler, the main thing I did was feint an opponent than hit them with the best spell I had, and if it didn't work I was quickly calling for the cleric.

Artanis
2007-11-21, 01:23 PM
Yeah, Warmage's edge doesn't scale hardly at all. Although...at low levels, it IS kinda cool to have it triple your Ray of Frost's average damage :smalltongue:



The way I see it, Beguilers and Warmages are two sides to the same coin.
That's the impression that I got from the Beguiler as well when I saw it for the first time.

kyuubigan
2007-11-21, 01:26 PM
It does make a difference at higher levels, like when I used Snow Storm to clear a goblin mine of workers, my edge bonus boosted my damage enough to kill all the miners, whose numbers where at least in the thirties. Plus, one of our main tanks fears me exclusively for the extra umph my spells have.

On another note, it gives players who want a militant character the option to play an arcane caster, because the Warmage makes for a much more effective artillary than the other arcane casters. That being primarily because of thier d6 hit die and that they can cast spells in medium armor (at level 8). Heck, right now I'm at lvl 8, and I a better AC than both our Paladins and 50 hit points.

Temp
2007-11-21, 02:17 PM
It does make a difference at higher levels, like when I used Snow Storm to clear a goblin mine of workers, my edge bonus boosted my damage enough to kill all the miners, whose numbers where at least in the thirties. Plus, one of our main tanks fears me exclusively for the extra umph my spells have.Problem is that Beguilers use the same action to Dominate/Stun/Confuse/Whatever an enemy that the Warmage uses to blast a foe. The Beguiler's spells entirely rmove bad guys from combat while the Warmage just cheeses them off a bit. Also, Will saves (which Beguiler spells generally target) are usually the lowest in the game.

And the Beguiler gets more skill points, the ability to bypass SR and the defensive/buff spells that put the extra 1 or 2 AC Medium Armor provides to shame.

Draz74
2007-11-21, 02:21 PM
... Except the Truenamer. That class has blatant design flaws.

... and the CW Samurai. Who is inferior in every way to a Fighter who just takes a Frightful Presence feat from Draconomicon.

Actually, the Truenamer, for all its problems, isn't too bad if you optimize it. An optimized Truenamer is much more useful than an optimized Fighter or Monk. It's just that an un-optimized Truenamer is more useless than almost any other non-optimized character (at higher levels).

Frosty
2007-11-21, 02:54 PM
And the Beguiler gets more skill points, the ability to bypass SR and the defensive/buff spells that put the extra 1 or 2 AC Medium Armor provides to shame.

Bypassing SR is only at level 20, and then only if you single-class all the way. I'd think Beguilers have more trouble with Sr because they have no access to Assay Resistance except UMDed through a Wand or something.

The defensive spells for of the Beguiler is uber awesome, I'll admit.

cupkeyk
2007-11-21, 04:32 PM
Bypassing SR is only at level 20, and then only if you single-class all the way. I'd think Beguilers have more trouble with Sr because they have no access to Assay Resistance except UMDed through a Wand or something.

The defensive spells for of the Beguiler is uber awesome, I'll admit.

But Assay Resistance via a wand will nerf the swift action casting of the spell. *Beguiler pity*

Temp
2007-11-21, 04:41 PM
Bypassing SR is only at level 20, and then only if you single-class all the way. Even the Level 8 Cloaked Casting is more than the Warmage gets. And the Beguiler has zero MAD, so DCs will be probably be higher.

Frosty
2007-11-21, 05:56 PM
I didn't say it's not nice, just not all-powerful (as in, SR is useless when against Assay Resistance. That spell needs nerfing).

I wonder who'd win in a fight between the Warmage and the Beguiler. The Warmage typically targets touch AC and reflex saves, something that is typically weak for a Beguiler. The Beguiler targets the Warmage's Will save, which is his high save.

OTOH, failure a save against the Beguiler probably means more than failing a reflex save vs the Warmage.

kyuubigan
2007-11-29, 02:13 PM
I wonder who'd win in a fight between the Warmage and the Beguiler. The Warmage typically targets touch AC and reflex saves, something that is typically weak for a Beguiler. The Beguiler targets the Warmage's Will save, which is his high save.

OTOH, failure a save against the Beguiler probably means more than failing a reflex save vs the Warmage.

Hmm...that's a tough call. I know from experience that Wisdom is usually the dump stat when playing a Warmage (heck, my Wis is 8), which would seriously impact his Will saves. I guess it all really comes down to who wins initiative. If the Beguiler wins, feinting and casting Phantasmal Killer is almost equivalant to a headshot. If the Warmage wins, Sudden Empowered Fireball would probably end it. But if both survive the first round, I would probably put my money on the Warmage, mainly because of his high Will save, AC, Hit Points, and sheer damage output.