wizard/monk

[elyktsorb]

Been thinking about making a Wizard Monk and I basically can't see any reason to not do Bladesinger.

Haven't thought too hard about the Monk side, but I can't find much of any reason to not do Bladesinger, but my brain is also full of holes so I figured I'd ask.

[Salmon343]

Wizard/monk is my jam, I've actually been dying to play a monk bladesinger for a while. Monk 1/Bladesinger X is my recommendation after work on that build.

The beauty with monk is that one level gives you a bonus action punch (from dex!). The base damage isn't crazy, but with spells like Spirit Shroud you have the potential to increase each hit's damage. Thus, I could see Monk working with other Wizard subclasses, particularly something like war mage - you get your second attack from your bonus action.

Though with Bladesong and unarmoured monk AC, the Monk/Bladesinger aesthetics are hard to beat.

[Arkhios]

Wizard/monk is my jam, I've actually been dying to play a monk bladesinger for a while. Monk 1/Bladesinger X is my recommendation after work on that build.

The beauty with monk is that one level gives you a bonus action punch (from dex!). The base damage isn't crazy, but with spells like Spirit Shroud you have the potential to increase each hit's damage. Thus, I could see Monk working with other Wizard subclasses, particularly something like war mage - you get your second attack from your bonus action.

Though with Bladesong and unarmoured monk AC, the Monk/Bladesinger aesthetics are hard to beat.

I'd go at least Monk 2 for Dedicated Weapon (optional feature courtesy of TCE) as well as TCE-Bladesinger at least 6 for their "special little something" in regards to Extra Attacks. Flurry of blows 2 times before short rest is mostly gravy on top, nothing big, but being able to choose your dedicated weapon a bit more freely does make it easier to flavor your character however you want.

in fact, I'm quite fond of the idea of a Monk 2/Wizard (TCE-bladesinger) 6/Fighter (eldritch knight) 12.
- 3 attacks with Attack Action, one of which can expended to cast a cantrip instead
- Total of 5 ASI's
- Ability to choose a weapon you're proficient with, that is either simple or martial, and is not heavy nor special, to count as a monk weapon. Can be reassigned on a short or long rest.
- access up to 3rd level wizard spells
- spell slots as a 10th level spellcaster (up to 5th level slots, much like as if you were a half-caster)
- Eldritch Strike works phenomenally well with the above extra attack special feature.

[Salmon343]

I'd go at least Monk 2 for Dedicated Weapon (optional feature courtesy of TCE) as well as TCE-Bladesinger at least 6 for their "special little something" in regards to Extra Attacks. Flurry of blows 2 times before short rest is mostly gravy on top, nothing big, but being able to choose your dedicated weapon a bit more freely does make it easier to flavor your character however you want.

in fact, I'm quite fond of the idea of Monk 2/Wizard (TCE-bladesinger) 6/Fighter (eldritch knight) 12.

3 attacks with Attack Action, one of which may be traded to cast a cantrip, and on top of that, you can make one or two bonus attacks with a bonus action. Also, you'll be able to grab a total of 5 ASI's, which is rather nice, considering the multiclass rules.

Ah this is true - I forgot that I moved my theme from longsword to quarterstaff, so no longer needed the extra monk level. Monk 2 instead of 1 is pretty good. Honestly its not flurry of blows I'd consider to be the major gain (unless you're novaing), but the ability to dodge or dash as a bonus action 2/short rest. That can really help for survivability (which my recent trials of gish builds has taught me is king!).

What are you actually getting from Eldritch Knight 12? I'm loathe to ditch more than 2 caster levels unless its for Paladin 6 (and even then it still hurts) - you may still get a sizeable number of slots, but more often than not higher level spells >> upscaled spells. I don't think the 3rd attack from Eldritch Knight is worth it - Bladesingers can cantrip + attack, and the cantrip scales. In raw numbers with strategy for riders (Green Flame blading next to multiple enemies, for example) I reckon that actually beats a Fighter's extra attack, only losing out on reliability.

[Arkhios]

Ah this is true - I forgot that I moved my theme from longsword to quarterstaff, so no longer needed the extra monk level. Monk 2 instead of 1 is pretty good. Honestly its not flurry of blows I'd consider to be the major gain (unless you're novaing), but the ability to dodge or dash as a bonus action 2/short rest. That can really help for survivability (which my recent trials of gish builds has taught me is king!).

What are you actually getting from Eldritch Knight 12? I'm loathe to ditch more than 2 caster levels unless its for Paladin 6 (and even then it still hurts) - you may still get a sizeable number of slots, but more often than not higher level spells >> upscaled spells. I don't think the 3rd attack from Eldritch Knight is worth it - Bladesingers can cantrip + attack, and the cantrip scales. In raw numbers with strategy for riders (Green Flame blading next to multiple enemies, for example) I reckon that actually beats a Fighter's extra attack, only losing out on reliability.

Eldritch Knight 12 gives you another ASI, making your total ASI's even out with the standard five. And at that point your fighter level divides evenly for spellcasting progression, which I think is pretty good. I get you might not share the opinion though, and that's fine.

Three attacks + cantrip with flurry of blows > Two attacks + cantrip with flurry of blows.

Two attacks + cantrip with martial arts > One attack + cantrip with martial arts.

More attacks is more damage. The cantrip scales either way.

[Salmon343]

Eldritch Knight 12 gives you another ASI, making your total ASI's even out with the standard five. And at that point your fighter level divides evenly for spellcasting progression, which I think is pretty good. I get you might not share the opinion though, and that's fine.

Three attacks + cantrip with flurry of blows > Two attacks + cantrip with flurry of blows.

Two attacks + cantrip with martial arts > One attack + cantrip with martial arts.

More attacks is more damage. The cantrip scales either way.

I don't think the features interact like that - effects with the same name don't stack, so you'd either get the three attacks from Fighter, or the attack + cantrip from Bladesinger.

[Arkhios]

I don't think the features interact like that - effects with the same name don't stack, so you'd either get the three attacks from Fighter, or the attack + cantrip from Bladesinger.

Read it again:
Extra Attack, TCE p76
Starting at 6th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.

It doesn't exclude the possibility that one might have more than just two attacks with Attack Action.

Note that it says that "you can cast one of your cantrips in place of ONE of those attacks".

It does NOT say "you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those two attacks".

The first part of the Extra Attack feature is literally in every way exactly same as with every other Extra Attack features in the game. Fighter's Extra Attack is different than the rest because they get more than one extra attack, eventually. Extra Attack's do not stack, yes. They overlap.

[Salmon343]

Read it again:
Extra Attack, TCE p76
Starting at 6th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.

It doesn't exclude the possibility that one might have more than just two attacks with Attack Action.

Note that it says that "you can cast one of your cantrips in place of ONE of those attacks".

It does NOT say "you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those two attacks".

The first part of the Extra Attack feature is literally in every way exactly same as with every other Extra Attack features in the game. Fighter's Extra Attack is different than the rest because they get more than one extra attack, eventually. Extra Attack's do not stack, yes. They overlap.

Errata to the DMG can be found here: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/errata-november-2018

Not sure if I can post the quote, though the errata is freely available I'll err on the safe side. It's on page 2: "Combining Game Effects (p. 252)"

Because the features for both Bladesinger and Fighter are called Extra Attack, you cannot use them both simultaneously. If the Bladesinger Extra Attack was instead called "Bladesinger Extra Attack", then they would combine. However...with the same name, you only get one Extra Attack per attack action, be that the Fighter version or Bladesinger version.

[Arkhios]

Errata to the DMG can be found here: https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/errata-november-2018

Not sure if I can post the quote, though the errata is freely available I'll err on the safe side. It's on page 2: "Combining Game Effects (p. 252)"

Because the features for both Bladesinger and Fighter are called Extra Attack, you cannot use them both simultaneously. If the Bladesinger Extra Attack was instead called "Bladesinger Extra Attack", then they would combine. However...with the same name, you only get one Extra Attack per attack action, be that the Fighter version or Bladesinger version.

You're referring to the wrong rules.

See Player's Handbook rules about multiclassing (below),

Class Features, p164

When you gain a new level in a class, you get its features for that level. You don't, however, receive the class's starting equipment, and a few features have additional rules when you're multiclassing: Channel Divinity, Extra Attack, Unarmored Defense, and Spellcasting.

and specifically Extra Attacks (also below)


Extra Attack, p164

If you gain the Extra Attack class feature from more than one class, the features don't add together. You can't make more than two attacks with this feature unless it says you do (as the fighter's version of Extra Attack does). Similarly, the warlock's eldritch invocation Thirsting Blade doesn't give you additional attacks if you also have Extra Attack.
Up to until Fighter 11, Fighter follows the same rules for Extra Attack as anyone else, even when multiclassing. Beginning from Fighter 11, they do get more attacks. Period.

don't try to teach grandma how to suck eggs

[Salmon343]

You're referring to the wrong rules.

See Player's Handbook rules about multiclassing (below),


and specifically Extra Attacks (also below)


Up to until Fighter 11, Fighter follows the same rules for Extra Attack as anyone else, even when multiclassing. Beginning from Fighter 11, they do get more attacks. Period.

don't try to teach grandma how to suck eggs

Yep, this agrees with me. It explicitly states that the Extra Attack features don't add together. The context for this was probably in getting more than one attack, as when this was published Bladesinger didn't exist. (And it took a while for it to get its boosted Extra Attack!) But if we extend this context to refer to combining instead of adding, it states that you cannot. And if we don't and keep it as numerical adding, then the DMG errata covers this case. Although they both say the same thing here regardlessnof the context - no adding / stacking.

You do get three attacks, from having level 11 in Fighter. You also get an attack plus cantrip, from having 6th level in Bladesinger. But you don't get them both at once - the features don't add together.

[Arkhios]

Yep, this agrees with me. It explicitly states that the Extra Attack features don't add together. The context for this was probably in getting more than one attack, as when this was published Bladesinger didn't exist. (And it took a while for it to get its boosted Extra Attack!) But if we extend this context to refer to combining instead of adding, it states that you cannot. And if we don't and keep it as numerical adding, then the DMG errata covers this case. Although they both say the same thing here regardlessnof the context - no adding / stacking.

You do get three attacks, from having level 11 in Fighter. You also get an attack plus cantrip, from having 6th level in Bladesinger. But you don't get them both at once - the features don't add together.

FWIW, Bladesinger (before TCE) didn't have this funky "moreover..." additive rule, so there's that. Overlapping and stacking are two different things however. Both the TCE's Bladesinger Extra Attack and the Fighter Extra Attack specifically mention an additional function in addition to the extra attack. My interpretation is that, as always in D&D, specific trumps general.

Multiclassing Rules for Extra Attack is, in this case, the general rule, and both bladesinger's and fighter's extra attacks are specific. They don't rule each other out. One gives you more than two attacks and the other gives you the option to trade one of those attacks to cast a cantrip. The bladesinger's extra attack additional option is not giving you any more attacks. It's only giving you the option to trade one attack for a cantrip instead. In my honest opinion, these do apply at once.

[Salmon343]

FWIW, Bladesinger (before TCE) didn't have this funky "moreover..." additive rule, so there's that. Overlapping and stacking are two different things however. Both the TCE's Bladesinger Extra Attack and the Fighter Extra Attack specifically mention an additional function in addition to the extra attack. My interpretation is that, as always in D&D, specific trumps general.

Multiclassing Rules for Extra Attack is, in this case, the general rule, and both bladesinger's and fighter's extra attacks are specific. They don't rule each other out. One gives you more than two attacks and the other gives you the option to trade one of those attacks to cast a cantrip.

I think we're gonna need a third person to weigh in here...

And my argument is that the specific is the errata mentioning that same name features don't stack. It's specific which specifically governs the specific.

1) You've got your normal game features, giving you stuff like the Attack Action.

2) Class features are modifiers and supplements to that. Extra Attack is a modifier, it changes the Attack action to give you extra attacks, typically. So now when you take the Attack Action, you can apply your Extra Attack feature to get extra attacks.

3) DMG errata states that you cannot apply two features with the same name simultaneously. The PHB multiclassing comments also imply this, although that's weaker as Bladesinger Extra Attack did not yet exist, and the word "add" is ambiguous.

4) We'll call Bladesinger Extra Attack EA 1, and Fighter Extra Attack EA 2. You take the Attack Action. You can either apply EA 1, or EA 2 - but not both, due to point 3. So, you never have the ability to make three attacks and a cantrip substitution, only ever one at once.

[Gurgeh]

"the features don't add together" seems pretty black and white to me. At best I'd allow a player to choose whichever they wanted on an action-by-action basis.

[Salmon343]

"the features don't add together" seems pretty black and white to me. At best I'd allow a player to choose whichever they wanted on an action-by-action basis.

That's how I'd do it too. You have both class features, you just can't apply them both at the same time. Wanna Bladesinger Extra Attack before action surging for three more regulars through Fighter Extra Attack? Go for it. You can mix them up, you just can't stick them together.

[Khrysaes]

Extra Attack, TCE p76
Starting at 6th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. Moreover, you can cast one of your cantrips in place of one of those attacks.

Grammatically, the words "those attacks" refers to the two attacks from "you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn."

Additionally, Warmagic from EK 7, does not work with Bladesinger 6, because while the character is casting a cantrip, they do not "use your action to cast a cantrip," They use their action to perform the attack action, with one of the attacks being replaced by a cantrip.

That said, I would certainly allow a 11 EK and 6 Bladesinger to make 3 attacks, and cast one cantrip in place of one of those 3 attacks, then perform a weapon attack as a bonus action. as they are level 17.

[Bobthewizard]

Even if the attacks work together - and I'd be inclined to say they do, but I don't feel strongly about it - it's a terrible multiclass. You are giving up 4th - 9th level spells for a 20% increase in your resourceless damage that doesn't even show up until level 19.

At level 8, as a monk 2, blade singer 6, your resourceless attack is booming blade, extra attack, bonus action unarmed attack. If you then go eldritch knight, over the next 12 levels you get three wizard levels of low level preparations, no new spell levels known, and then finally get a 4th attack at level 19.

If you had stayed bladesinger, you'd instead have 4th through 9th level spells, and the exact same number of attacks from levels 9-18. With the two levels of monk, you don't need the armor or weapon proficiencies of the fighter. You get action surge which is nice, but not worth it. But then you get almost nothing from levels 3-10.

I think monk 2/bladesinger x could be fun with great stats, but I'd avoid the Eldritch Knight levels.

[elyktsorb]

I think monk 2/bladesinger x could be fun with great stats, but I'd avoid the Eldritch Knight levels.

I think I'm going to avoid the Eldritch Knight levels to avoid the above discussion with any future DM's

[Witty Username]

What does Monk 1 get you on a bladesinger?
I feel like that is just an alternate to light armor at that point, and maybe a slightly better bonus action attack than some of the low level spells and off hand weapons.

[Saelethil]

What does Monk 1 get you on a bladesinger?
I feel like that is just an alternate to light armor at that point, and maybe a slightly better bonus action attack than some of the low level spells and off hand weapons.

The main benefit I see is being able to use Dexterity for non-finesse weapons

[Khrysaes]

The main benefit I see is being able to use Dexterity for non-finesse weapons

Well, since the bladesinger cant use two hands to make an attack when in their bladesong, its mostly moot since the most a 1 handed weapon does is 1d8. Which a rapier does. Though i guess it would pair well with polearm master and a quarterstaff or spear. The wisdom bonus to ac and bonus action attack are potentially better than light armor. Though i would argue that 1 barbarian or 1 draconic sorcerer even just for the unarmored ac is better than 1 monk because the ability score synergy is better. That said once/if magic armor and ac becomes an option its better than draconic sorc/mage armor and potentially barbarian/monk unarmored ac.

[Saelethil]

Well, since the bladesinger cant use two hands to make an attack when in their bladesong, its mostly moot since the most a 1 handed weapon does is 1d8. Which a rapier does. Though i guess it would pair well with polearm master and a quarterstaff or spear. The wisdom bonus to ac and bonus action attack are potentially better than light armor. Though i would argue that 1 barbarian or 1 draconic sorcerer even just for the unarmored ac is better than 1 monk because the ability score synergy is better. That said once/if magic armor and ac becomes an option its better than draconic sorc/mage armor and potentially barbarian/monk unarmored ac.

Right, forgot about the one-handed rule. I gave the Bladesinger in a game I’m running a mithril long sword and I’m allowing him to use it with both hands which hasn’t broken anything and let’s him play the character he envisioned.
So yeah, RAW it isn’t a very potent combo but could still be fun.

[Khrysaes]

Right, forgot about the one-handed rule. I gave the Bladesinger in a game I’m running a mithril long sword and I’m allowing him to use it with both hands which hasn’t broken anything and let’s him play the character he envisioned.
So yeah, RAW it isn’t a very potent combo but could still be fun.

I mean, if the DM is willing to allow versatile weapon attacks, and change the restrictions to... heavy weapons like a monk, then it works, it should only be a 1 point average damage over a rapier.

[Desteplo]

I like kensei 3-4/bladesinger 16-17
Depending if you like that extra asi. The bonus AC stacking is fun from blade song and kensei shield equivalent

I like the idea that you specialize in a single weapon twice