Is the mythical quad 9 Possible?

[Promethean]

There's been builds all over this place for how to get 9th level powers, 9th Divine spells, and 9th Arcane spells all on the same build without using gestalt or homebrew.

I recently saw a build for triple 9 that left A Lot of room for variation and could be used with any full caster.

Caster[any arcane] 9/ardent 1/ur-priest 1/theurge 8/cerebremancer 1

The trick used was Magic mantle + Supernatural transformation(psionics) to change the character's manifester level to equal the character's hit dice rather than psionic class level and then taking advantage of ardent's weird progression mechanics.

So to the boards wisdom, does anyone think it's be possible to push this build into quad 9's(with 9th level maneuvers) by either using wizard caster base + X levels of jade pheonix mage + bloodline shenanigans(requires a very specific reading of bloodlines), Or by subbing out the 20-level caster class with a 10 level arcane class like sublime cord or beholder mage?

[tyckspoon]

You might be able to do it with the (IMO false) interpretation that all Prestige Classes fully advance Initiator Level, not just the ones presented in Tome of Battle that say they do so as part of their progression; if you're already using a pretty squirrely interpretation of both the Magic Mantle and accept that you can turn 'manifesting' into a supernatural ability, I suppose this isn't an excessive additional leap. In this case a key would be getting into prestige classes ASAP, so your initial stub may look like 'Arcane Caster 2/Master Specialist X' or even only one level in a base class if you can find a functioning early-access trick plus another class with very low level requirements.

[Promethean]

...if you're already using a pretty squirrely interpretation of both the Magic Mantle and accept that you can turn 'manifesting' into a supernatural ability, I suppose this isn't an excessive additional leap. In this case a key would be getting into prestige classes ASAP, so your initial stub may look like 'Arcane Caster 2/Master Specialist X' or even only one level in a base class if you can find a functioning early-access trick plus another class with very low level requirements.

Weirdly enough, This is technically using magic mantle as intended. As per transparency rules, psi-like and spell-like abilities become the same thing at full transparency and the most Hardcore reading of magic mantle is that it only enforces full transparency. Unlike "super-transparency" where players try things like applying metamagic to psionics or qualifying for spellcasting Prcs, PLA = SLA is RAI.

"The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability" is also raw.

Finally:


One of your innate spell-like abilities becomes a supernatural ability. It is no longer subject to spell resistance, though it can still be suppressed in an antimagic field. Using this ability does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The number of uses, if limited, does not change. The effective caster level equals your total Hit Dice or the effective caster level of the original ability, whichever is higher.

Granted it's still super cheesy.

On the other hand, I'm pretty convinced the "all PRCs giving full initiator" is in the same category as "Super-Transparency" in that it requires deliberately misreading the rules and probably ignoring others entirely to work. I don't know for Sure as I don't have TOB with me at the moment.

[Beni-Kujaku]

As per transparency rules, psi-like and spell-like abilities become the same thing

Even with that, how do you apply Supernatural Transformation to psionics? Psionics are not psi-like, the same as spellcasting is not a spell-like ability. And it's definitely not innate either.

Edit: I read the "The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability" paragraph. Which is just before the "However, a psionic creature does not have to pay a psi-like ability’s power point cost.". I believe taking that sentence at face value would have much worse consequences than quad 9, so yeah, carry on. Still not innate, though. Or did I miss some flavor text somewhere that says that ardent manifest their powers innately that you could use for RAW abuse?

[Promethean]

...Still not innate, though. Or did I miss some flavor text somewhere that says that ardent manifest their powers innately that you could use for RAW abuse?

Away from book atm, but I've definitely seen the "innate" argument before. There's definitely raw text that label psionics as Innate and the argument then moves to class vs racial "innate" abilities.

At that point it's up to DM Ruling on the RAI definition of "innate".

As per strictly raw though, it still applies.

Edit: Found it! Flavor text on pg 4 of the 3xpanded psionic handbook for 3.5.

"A psionic character is blessed with a form of innate ability that enables him or her to use mental power to achieve goals or perform tasks that nonpsionic characters can accomplish—if they’re even capable of doing them at all—only by using gross physical skills such as brute strength or raw agility, or by using intellect or force of will distinct from the natural power of the mind itself."

By raw, All psionics are specifically innate abilities.

[Akal Saris]

I suppose one route would be to attempt to argue that Shapechange grants spell-casting as an ability if the race casts 'as an X', such as how the last MMs listed spellcasting as an Ex ability for a few monsters (like hobgoblin warcasters). For example, a Planetar has 17th level cleric casting, so one would only need to worry about the other three. Obviously this is not a reading that would fly at most sensible tables.

[Jervis]

There's been builds all over this place for how to get 9th level powers, 9th Divine spells, and 9th Arcane spells all on the same build without using gestalt or homebrew.

I recently saw a build for triple 9 that left A Lot of room for variation and could be used with any full caster.

Caster[any arcane] 9/ardent 1/ur-priest 1/theurge 8/cerebremancer 1

The trick used was Magic mantle + Supernatural transformation(psionics) to change the character's manifester level to equal the character's hit dice rather than psionic class level and then taking advantage of ardent's weird progression mechanics.

So to the boards wisdom, does anyone think it's be possible to push this build into quad 9's(with 9th level maneuvers) by either using wizard caster base + X levels of jade pheonix mage + bloodline shenanigans(requires a very specific reading of bloodlines), Or by subbing out the 20-level caster class with a 10 level arcane class like sublime cord or beholder mage?

Assuming you use the interpretation that all PrCs advance initiator levels fully, which is a strong bit of RAW foo, then Chameleon 10 gives 10 levels on initiator and 6 spell levels of Arcane&Divine. After that use Dragon Mag Mystic along with improved Sigil Krau Illumian to get to 9th level spells while also getting more initiator levels. 13 levels to get 13 levels of initiator and 9th level spells. If you can’t get full maneuvers and shove in psionics with the other 7 levels then I don’t know what to tell you. If we’re going max cheese then supernatural transformation into ardent with a few levels of initiator before going chameleon, cap that off with three levels of mystic to get 9th level spells from every class, and then the last two levels, since your caster and manifestor level doesn’t care now, will be spent on ardent and a initiator to get more powers/maneuvers known. Since Incarnum can almost be bought with feats we might be able to make a quint

[Promethean]

Assuming you use the interpretation that all PrCs advance initiator levels fully,

Honestly, I wouldn't even say this is raw. The same paragraph referenced says "In most cases, you add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to determine your initiator level. See the prestige class descriptions in Chapter 5 for details."

The paragraph states not all PRCs grant full initiator level and then references you to the prestige section. All initiator-PRCs explicitly tell you if they grant full in the section it tells you to see advancement details and the one that doesn't says nothing one way or the other. By RAW this doesn't necessarily tell you one way or the other if PRCs that don't mention Initiator level advance it, but RAI is still clear as day.

This puts it on the same grounds as using Magic Mantle Super-Transparency to apply metamagic to Psionics. Raw does not say no, but it also doesn't say yes either.

With Supernatural ardent, the RAW is a yes by the rules at face value. If we wanted to go Full cheese mode, we could try to push it to say that supernatural psionics also cost no XP because Supernatural abilities don't cost XP, material components, or Power points because it's now an At-Will SU, but that requires a Very specific reading of the rules to not go *"SLAs and SU abilities have X as general rules, but Psionic has specific rules in addition to those that can make it cost things like XP and power points".

*Even with general verses specific though. "Manifestation" of psionics is called out as specifically being a Psi-like ability, it's an utterly unique at will ability that can be modified by classes, but still a PLA in all other cases.


Since Incarnum can almost be bought with feats we might be able to make a quint

Really? Do tell.

[Malphegor]

Maybe a phaerimm’s HD-based sorcery would help out here? Means you don’t need to devote levels to arcane casting as your HD counts for that?
So be a undead phaerimm hatchling, LA buyoff and first hatchling hitdice replaced with class level hitdice, psychic theurge together Erudite and Mad Faith feat boosted Ur-Priest, and you should maybe get decently into it. Not sure if you’d get to 9s this method but it should be cleaner as we’ve moved sorcery to progress on hd

[Jervis]

Really? Do tell.

Very feat intensive but you can get most of the chakras by spending feats on it. You’ll need a dip into one of the classes to get a soul bind list that’s longer than one. The only one you miss out in is heart chakra but not all Incarnum classes get that anyway.

[Jervis]

Maybe a phaerimm’s HD-based sorcery would help out here? Means you don’t need to devote levels to arcane casting as your HD counts for that?
So be a undead phaerimm hatchling, LA buyoff and first hatchling hitdice replaced with class level hitdice, psychic theurge together Erudite and Mad Faith feat boosted Ur-Priest, and you should maybe get decently into it. Not sure if you’d get to 9s this method but it should be cleaner as we’ve moved sorcery to progress on hd

Actually Pherim have a Caster Level based on hit die, not actual progression. You still get a free level of sorcerer though

[loky1109]

Emancipated spawn. 9th level spells on ~9 ECL. Maybe earlier.

[Promethean]

Emancipated spawn. 9th level spells on ~9 ECL. Maybe earlier.

Holy...

How have I never seen this come up more often? As long as you take level 3 as your 20th level, you could make the most BS build combos.

[Jervis]

Holy...

How have I never seen this come up more often? As long as you take level 3 as your 20th level, you could make the most BS build combos.

Off the top of my head level to 20, die, level to 20 again as a 1hd intelligent undead, taking emancipated spawn, become alive again, die, repeat to be a sub level 20 character is it’s every class feature. It’s not really practical though since at that point you should just start taking epic levels. It’s not really a build in the traditional sense

[tyckspoon]

Holy...

How have I never seen this come up more often? As long as you take level 3 as your 20th level, you could make the most BS build combos.

Probably because taking that 3rd level would immediately turn your artificially low ECL 'undead monster' build into an ECL 30+, which is not especially useful for practical applications and will break the rules of optimization exercises that require a limited number of class levels - you end up just paying extra levels in taking the Emancipated Spawn class for the dubious 'benefit' being a monster with class levels. Coulda just.. been a monster with class levels, if that's what you wanted.

[icefractal]

Wasn't Emancipated Spawn what "The Word" way back in the day used?
Whether it's no big deal or insanely good depends on whether a "20th level challenge" means "ECL 20 at the end" (if you don't take the third level) or "enough XP to go from 1st-20th level, once".

[Promethean]

Off the top of my head level to 20, die, level to 20 again as a 1hd intelligent undead, taking emancipated spawn, become alive again, die, repeat to be a sub level 20 character is it’s every class feature. It’s not really practical though since at that point you should just start taking epic levels. It’s not really a build in the traditional sense


Probably because taking that 3rd level would immediately turn your artificially low ECL 'undead monster' build into an ECL 30+, which is not especially useful for practical applications and will break the rules of optimization exercises that require a limited number of class levels - you end up just paying extra levels in taking the Emancipated Spawn class for the dubious 'benefit' being a monster with class levels. Coulda just.. been a monster with class levels, if that's what you wanted.

If you do the XP math, you get those levels at a significant discount if you go via emancipation rather than just leveling straight to 40(especially with thought bottle shenanigans)...

But I can see why this isn't actually useful for ECL 20 discussions. You're effectively leveling to 40.

[loky1109]

Holy...

How have I never seen this come up more often? As long as you take level 3 as your 20th level, you could make the most BS build combos.
Don't take level 3. Stop on level 2. You still can cast one spell from all levels, but without +17 ECL.

[Promethean]

Don't take level 3. Stop on level 2. You still can cast one spell from all levels, but without +17 ECL.

I was thinking take level 3 because that one lets regain all class abilities while 2 makes you pick one class...

But then again, 9th level spells for 2 class levels is amazing. Especially if bonus spells apply.

[loky1109]

I was thinking take level 3 because that one lets regain all class abilities while 2 makes you pick one class...

But then again, 9th level spells for 2 class levels is amazing. Especially if bonus spells apply.

It can be sha'ir. So, 9th arcane and 9th divine.

[Promethean]

It can be sha'ir. So, 9th arcane and 9th divine.

I was gonna say you'd be limited to the spells from 8 pre-selected domains, but the same would be true for ardent powers in the original build.

[noob]

There's been builds all over this place for how to get 9th level powers, 9th Divine spells, and 9th Arcane spells all on the same build without using gestalt or homebrew.

I recently saw a build for triple 9 that left A Lot of room for variation and could be used with any full caster.

Caster[any arcane] 9/ardent 1/ur-priest 1/theurge 8/cerebremancer 1

The trick used was Magic mantle + Supernatural transformation(psionics) to change the character's manifester level to equal the character's hit dice rather than psionic class level and then taking advantage of ardent's weird progression mechanics.

So to the boards wisdom, does anyone think it's be possible to push this build into quad 9's(with 9th level maneuvers) by either using wizard caster base + X levels of jade pheonix mage + bloodline shenanigans(requires a very specific reading of bloodlines), Or by subbing out the 20-level caster class with a 10 level arcane class like sublime cord or beholder mage?

There is a trick: ninth level arcane spells can be reached with 1 level in wizard if you do sufficiently long loops with feats (you need a heap of them)
Then manage to qualify pre epic for Improved Spell Capacity(ex: true dragon shenanigans maybe with a scroll of PAO) then get a level in cleric and use Extra Slot to get a ninth level divine spell slot.
Then get 17 initiator levels and use the trick you mentioned for psionic progression
You end up with wizard 1, cleric 1, ardent 1, crusader 17 for example.
You had to trick in megatons of feats with shenanigans such as dark chaos shuffle of alert or something.

[Crake]

Chameleon 9 can get dual 9ths on it's own, and CL 18, 1 level in a psionic magic mantle class gets you 9th level powers ontop of that. 1 level in an initiator and 9 levels in legacy champion will get you 8 initiator levels plus another 4.5 initiator levels from legacy champion being a non initiator class. That combined with the 5 initiator levels from chameleon/psionics gets you a total of 17.5 initiator levels, JUST enough to snag 9th level maneuvers by 20th level.

Edit: RIP legacy champ requires 10th level, so you'd need some SERIOUS shenannigans to get levels in it early. It's possible, but cheesy. You'll need to become a lycanthrope to qualify, then cure your lycanthropy at a point where you still qualify for your legacy champion levels (read: initiator 1/legacy champ 4/chameleon 5) then finish off your 20 levels (chameleon 4, magic mantle class 1, legacy champ 5)

[loky1109]

Emancipated Spawn Chameleon... Hmmm...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Convert spell-to-power erudite 21 gains 9th level powers, arcane spells, and divine spells all on its lonesome, and an ardent/initiator with Supernatural psionics and an epic erudite mentor with psychic chirurgery can gain 9th level arcanes, divines, powers, and maneuvers, as well.

An illithid savant who eats a legacy champion to add more faux levels of illithid savant can eat arcanes, divines, psionic powers, maneuvers, chakra binding, etc, basically getting anything and everything it wants.

[loky1109]

Convert spell-to-power erudite 21 gains 9th level powers, arcane spells, and divine spells all on its lonesome

No, he doesn't. Converted spell isn't spell, it's power now.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No, he doesn't. Converted spell isn't spell, it's power now.He's got access to 9th level arcane and divine spells, even if they've been converted to be powers. Yes, there are some differences, such as for prereqs and feats they can be used with, but if the spell effects themselves are what you're after, there's no functional difference on that front.

[loky1109]

He's got access to 9th level arcane and divine spells, even if they've been converted to be powers. Yes, there are some differences, such as for prereqs and feats they can be used with, but if the spell effects themselves are what you're after, there's no functional difference on that front.
He doesn't. He got access to 9th level psionic powers. Some of them can looks like arcane or divine spells, but still are psionic powers, not spells.
We talk here not about functional, but about TO task.

[Promethean]

He's got access to 9th level arcane and divine spells, even if they've been converted to be powers. Yes, there are some differences, such as for prereqs and feats they can be used with, but if the spell effects themselves are what you're after, there's no functional difference on that front.

Spell-to-power erudites can only convert arcane spells, unless they find a caster capable of casting divine spells as arcane.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

He doesn't. He got access to 9th level psionic powers. Some of them can looks like arcane or divine spells, but still are psionic powers, not spells.
We talk here not about functional, but about TO task.After a certain point, the difference is arbitrary.

"You need someone to cast wish to reverse this condition on your character."

"Oh, I have that!"

"It has to be a spell, not a spell converted to a power."

"Why? A wish is a wish."

"Because reasons, that's why!"

"Uh... What?"

[Jervis]

Spell-to-power erudites can only convert arcane spells, unless they find a caster capable of casting divine spells as arcane.

Psychic Reformation to alternate source or southern magician

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psychic Reformation to alternate source or southern magicianOr true dragons (for cleric spells), or dragons with the Child of Eberron draconic archetype (for druid spells).

Also wyrm wizard.

[ShurikVch]

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "quad" mean "4" (not "3")

OP have:
Arcane
Divine
Manifestation
To get three nines are fairly easy: Phaerimm Hatchling into Ardent/Ur-priest, then use Psiotheurgist feat to add your CL to your ML - ant take 9th-level Ardent powers

[JNAProductions]

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "quad" mean "4" (not "3")

OP have:
Arcane
Divine
Manifestation
To get three nines are fairly easy: Phaerimm Hatchling into Ardent/Ur-priest, then use Psiotheurgist feat to add your CL to your ML - ant take 9th-level Ardent powers

Martial Initiators.

[ShurikVch]

Martial Initiators.
Not in the OP

[Jervis]

Please, correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't "quad" mean "4" (not "3")

OP have:
Arcane
Divine
Manifestation
To get three nines are fairly easy: Phaerimm Hatchling into Ardent/Ur-priest, then use Psiotheurgist feat to add your CL to your ML - ant take 9th-level Ardent powers

Phaerimm add their hit die to caster level not spellcaster level. Technically their free sorcerer levels are age category based. So a Phaerimm hatching only gets 1 sorcerer level before factoring in class levels.

[Batcathat]

Not in the OP

It's in the last paragraph.