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Keld Denar
2007-11-20, 07:55 AM
Is it just me, or does this creature seem a little.....under CRed. I ran a Living Greyhawk game this weekend that had one in it. This was a party of 8, 9, 2x 10s, and 2x 12s. The encounter started when a couple large barrels of ale that were being brought in by cart busted open and almost a dozen commoner zombies popped out. Initiative started and my DW that had also been hiding in the ale (commanded by servents of Vecna to trojan horse into an important political meeting and start turning people into wraiths) sprung attack out of the cart and attacked the first player he picked up with his life sense. Swinging with a +13 to hit a flatfooted touch AC of 11 or so, I couldn't miss. He failed his DC 25 fort save and took 6 points of CON damanage. 6 POINTS! DW can do up to a d8 per hit. I ended up hitting him again (he was a ranger, so he had a decent CON and almost completely killed him. The other players formed up on him to protect him, and since I couldn't get to my primary target (I wanted spawn!) I picked a player who was standing by herself. I pulled some CON off her, all the while gaining temp hp at 5 points per swing. I kept spring attacking out of the cart until the party moved far enough away. Then I just started spring attacking out of the ground, sometimes only taking double moves under the ground to reposition and come at the party from other angles (damn it, I wanted spawn!).

The party finally prevailed through very creative use of readied actions and a and a wand of Benign Transposition (swapping the melee with Ghostblight Capsule with the intended target of the DW, who then took a 5' step and swung) and a pair of 5th level wands of Magic Missile (very expensive consumable). When the dust settled, I had drained something like 30 total points of CON off 3 different characters, not quite killing any thanks to a well placed Bears Endurance and creative positioning. If they wouldn't have had 6 players, I probably would have killed them all. The combat lasted about 2 hours.

So, with reach, 60' perfect fly, incorporiality, a massive dex (and a high touch AC), and a d8 CON drain, anyone think these guys are just a tad bit over powered for their CR? I'd provide a link to d20srd, but unfortunately, its blocked at work. ;)

hamlet
2007-11-20, 08:01 AM
Not seeing the issue here. It's a tough monster that SHOULD be dangerous against a single character while the others are preoccupied with zombies. It's something that poses a serious threat.

Leave it as is.

Saph
2007-11-20, 08:07 AM
Here's the link for them: Dread Wraith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm#dreadWraith)

You're right, they're incredibly vicious little things if they're played smart (and with Int and Wis scores of 17 and 18, there's no reason for them not to be). Just hover 20' or so under the ground, then keep Spring Attacking every turn. The most the PCs will ever get on them is a readied attack, and not even that if you're smart about positioning. Meleers can't charge or full attack them, and 90-95% of spells are useless against them due to incorporeality, undead traits, and a ridiculously high touch AC.

There are a few (a very few) spells that work reliably against them, but the chance of the PCs having the right spells prepared at exactly the time a DW happens to attack them are very small. This is one of those monsters that the PCs are probably best off running from if they can.

- Saph

KillianHawkeye
2007-11-20, 08:21 AM
Hmm... it seems a little odd that the Dread Wraith has is CR 11 with 16 HD while the standard Wraith has CR 5 and 5 HD, especially since the Dread Wraith is pretty much better in every possible way with no real weaknesses by comparison. It doesn't have the standard Wraith's turn resistance, but with HD greater than it's CR I guess it didn't need it (unlike the Wraith, who's natural HD = CR).

Still, it is pretty tough for a CR 11 creature, although playing to the creature's strengths like you did should constitute a circumstantial bonus to the amount of experience gained from defeating it. I think there's some guidelines in the DMG for that. I guess if it was possible for everyone to fight it at once, then it'd be worth a CR 11... maybe.

Mr. Friendly
2007-11-20, 10:59 AM
Hmm... it seems a little odd that the Dread Wraith has is CR 11 with 16 HD while the standard Wraith has CR 5 and 5 HD, especially since the Dread Wraith is pretty much better in every possible way with no real weaknesses by comparison. It doesn't have the standard Wraith's turn resistance, but with HD greater than it's CR I guess it didn't need it (unlike the Wraith, who's natural HD = CR).

Still, it is pretty tough for a CR 11 creature, although playing to the creature's strengths like you did should constitute a circumstantial bonus to the amount of experience gained from defeating it. I think there's some guidelines in the DMG for that. I guess if it was possible for everyone to fight it at once, then it'd be worth a CR 11... maybe.

It's HD outstrips it's CR because of how adding HD to Undead works. It only increases the CR by 1 for every 4 HD you add. So going by that standard, you are only adding 3 to the critters CR from HD alone. Going to Large size gives another point, I would assume the other +2 are from increasing it's stats and from increasing the Con Drain from 1d6 to 1d8.

Playing to the creatures strengths and using tactics does not and should not ever get more xp. A monster should use every tactic that can be legitimately applied to it or described in it's entry. If you create a cirumstance that is extra dangerous, then that is worth more xp. (example: A room with a trap in the center that continously emits a Cloudkill while the same Dread Wraith is attack, then that should be worth the trap xp +wraith xp +ad hoc extra xp) However, if the circumstance just happens to be a monster, using it's listed tactics, in an environment that is anything but a flat featureless plane, sorry, no extra xp.

If you wanna see really broken, meet The Captain:

The Captain
Large Undead (Incorporeal)
{table] |
Hit Dice:|32d12 (208 hp)
Initiative:|+14
Speed:|Fly 60 ft. (good) (12 squares)
Armor Class:|26 (–1 size, +10 Dex, +7 deflection), touch 26, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple:|+16/—
Attack:|Incorporeal touch +25 melee (2d6 plus 1d8 Constitution drain)
Full Attack:|Incorporeal touch +25 melee (2d6 plus 1d8 Constitution drain)
Space/Reach:|10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks:|Constitution drain, create spawn
Special Qualities:|Darkvision 60 ft., daylight powerlessness, incorporeal traits, lifesense 60 ft., undead traits, unnatural aura
Saves:|Fort +10, Ref +28, Will +23
Abilities:|Str —, Dex 30, Con —, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 24
Skills:|Bluff +23, Diplomacy +9, Hide +24, Intimidate +42, Knowledge (religion) +22, Listen +42, Perform +15, Search +22, Sense Motive +40, Spot +42, Survival +5 (+7 following tracks)
Feats:|Ability Focus (Constitution Drain), Alertness(b), Blind-Fight, Combat Focus, Combat Defense, Combat Panache, Combat Vigor, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative(b), Improved Natural Attack (incorporeal touch), Mobility, Spring Attack
Environment:|Any
Organization:|One plus 2 lieutenants (dread wraiths), 4 sergeants (9 HD wraiths) and 8 wraiths
Challenge Rating:|15
Treasure:|None
Alignment:|Always lawful evil
Advancement:|—
Level Adjustment:|—[/table]

COMBAT
Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of The Captain at a distance of 30 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.
Daylight Powerlessness (Ex): The Captain is utterly powerless in natural sunlight (not merely a daylight spell) and will flee from it.
Lifesense (Su): The Captain notices and locates living creatures within 60 feet, just as if he possessed the blindsight ability. He also senses the strength of their life force automatically, as if he had cast deathwatch.
Constitution Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by The Captain’s incorporeal touch attack must succeed on a DC 35 Fortitude save or take 1d8 points of Constitution drain. The save DC is Charisma-based. On each such successful attack, The Captain gains 5 temporary hit points.
Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid slain by The Captain becomes a wraith in 1d4 rounds. Its body remains intact and inanimate, but its spirit is torn free from its corpse and transformed. Spawn are under the command of The Captain and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.

He's a mere CR 15. With the retinue I listed for him, it's only EL ~16.

Lapak
2007-11-20, 11:16 AM
At level 11, PCs have a lot of options for dealing with the beast, particularly if they know they'll be up against undead. They have access to Fly and Levitate; if they have enough to get the entire party around an obstacle (which they hopefully do, either in castings or consumables) then they have enough to get out of reach of its underground Spring Attack. It can still get to them, but it can't come out of nowhere or get behind solid objects afterward if they just take the fight to the skies.

If they know they're up against undead, they might have Death Ward and Restoration, from scrolls if not prepared.

Though really, it's not super-high as far as hit points go for a CR 11 encounter; forcing it into the open by getting off the ground should be sufficient to make it vulnerable, and I'd expect most level 11 parties to be able to do that at least temporarily.

It's definitely dangerous, especially during its alpha strike - as the ranger found. But they defeated it without losing anyone through solid tactics, and they could have had it easier in a variety of ways despite the fact that it was run intelligently. It cost them a significant portion of their ability to fight, and I'd say that's about what you want to get out of an equal-level encounter.

-Cor-
2007-11-20, 11:26 AM
If you read their full MM entry the Daylight spell works particularly well against them.




They have Daylight Powerlessness.

Zanatos777
2007-11-20, 11:33 AM
I pit players up against a dread wraith once. I don't think any single monster has ever caused so much fear in one of them (the paladin) before or since. The other players didn't realize how dangerous they were and were going to attack. But he charged and told them to run not fight, he was panicking cause he knew it could kill the whole party no problem (they were probably 8 or 9th level but there were like 7 of them). Like I said he charged and actually hit the damn thing with his great club of disruption...I then proceeded to roll a 1 and the dread wraith was no more. I don't think I've ever seen him so relieved to have a monster dead.

Keld Denar
2007-11-20, 11:35 AM
The party didn't really have any way for them all to fly. The party's only real arcane presence was the 9th level character, who was playing a Mystic Theurge. The only reason they survived is because 2 of them had access and bought a level 5 wand of Magic missile, the ranger had an item called an Etherblade (basically a crossbow of force, only was doing a d8 damage), and the Dervish bought and handed off a Wand of Benign Transposition to the Theurge.

The nice thing was though, that after the combat was over, the players were not at all angry or bitter about me using intelligent tactics with the Dread Wraith. I specifically only tried to target a couple targets because I wanted spawn. I made complete use of my life sense and amble cover of ground with spring attack. I wasn't trying to pick on anyone, or actively kill everyone, just play the monster in a way that makes sense. This is good because of how the Living Greyhawk system works, and the fact that players often switch from game to game and often take turns DMing. Those players now have a very healthy respect for one of the most powerful undead for its CR, but they are no worse off for it. Mature players 4tw!

EDIT: Oh, and the Daylight spell doesn't work like that. Read it. It specifically states that it doesn't provide ACTUAL daylight with ACTUAL daylight mechanics. You can't destroy a vampire with a 3rd level spell, and you can't shut off a dread wraith with it either.

Zanatos777
2007-11-20, 11:36 AM
If you read their full MM entry the Daylight spell works particularly well against them.




They have Daylight Powerlessness.


Did you read the monster entry? It specifically says daylight doesn't work.

Saph
2007-11-20, 12:01 PM
At level 11, PCs have a lot of options for dealing with the beast, particularly if they know they'll be up against undead. They have access to Fly and Levitate; if they have enough to get the entire party around an obstacle (which they hopefully do, either in castings or consumables) then they have enough to get out of reach of its underground Spring Attack. It can still get to them, but it can't come out of nowhere or get behind solid objects afterward if they just take the fight to the skies.

But can they get everybody into the air? As long as there's one PC still on the ground, the wraith can hit them. And even then, how long can the PCs stay airborne for? Dread Wraiths are smart, more than smart enough to wait until they have a good target.

And this assumes the PCs are outside. If they're indoors or underground (which is the kind of place you're more likely to find a Dread Wraith anyway) they're totally hosed - the DW can hit them from every direction. As a player, if I came up against one of these my first choice would be to run.

- Saph

-Cor-
2007-11-20, 12:23 PM
Did you read the monster entry? It specifically says daylight doesn't work.

Hmmm... "(not merely a Daylight spell)". Nope, missed that part the first time through. Sorry. No need to get all snarky about it.

Still, if it's dumb enough to attack during the day, just go outside... problem solved.

deadseashoals
2007-11-20, 06:43 PM
It's on the strong side for its CR considering it's a stock monster. It's damn tough in combat unless you're blasting it with magic missiles, and by the time you've killed it, it's likely to force you to have wasted a lot more resources than a normal CR 11 encounter would demand. To the tune of 100 gp and a fourth level slot per player, plus being hosed for the rest of the day.

Awetugiw
2007-11-20, 08:13 PM
The problem with the dread wraith, as with a lot of undead, is that it's CR takes into account that there is a reasonable chance there is a sun cleric with a phylactery of undead turning around.

If you don't have anyone around who can just say "you're destroyed, no save", it'll give a bit more trouble than it's CR would indicate.

martyboy74
2007-11-20, 09:11 PM
Just hover 20' or so under the ground, then keep Spring Attacking every turn.

Just to nitpick, you can't do this. The incorporeal subtype says that you have to stay within 5' of a surface of the substance.

silentknight
2007-11-21, 01:19 PM
Nitpicking it may be, but unless you can hit it, 5 ft might as well be 20 ft or 100 ft or whatever.

Mr. Friendly
2007-11-21, 02:38 PM
I was messing around, seeing what other sorts of broke monsters I could make for the same CR as the Dread Wraith. Here's what I made for only 1 CR higher..

{table]INVISIBLE STALKER|
Huge Elemental| (Air, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice:| 24d8+96 (204 hp)
Initiative:| +8
Speed:| 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 30 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class:| 19 (–2 size, +4 Dex, +7 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple:| +18/+31
Attack:| Slam +26 melee (4d6+9)
Full Attack:| 2 slams +26 melee (4d6+9)
Full Attack with Power Attack(6) and Imp. Rapid Strike:| 2 slams +20 melee (4d6+15), slam +16 (4d6+15), slam +11 (4d6+15), slam +6 (4d6+15), slam +1 (4d6+15)
Space/Reach:| 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks:| —
Special Qualities:| Darkvision 60 ft., elemental traits, natural invisibility, improved tracking
Saves:| Fort +12, Ref +18, Will +11
Abilities:| Str 28, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 11
Skills:| Listen +29, Move Silently +31, Search +30, Spot +30, Survival +2 (+4 following tracks)
Feats:| Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (slam), Large and In Charge, Rapidstike, Improved Rapidstrike, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam)
Challenge Rating:| 12[/table]

CthulhuM
2007-11-23, 11:01 PM
Heh, your players should consider themselves lucky. I had a DM who sent a spectre with rogue levels and the life drain and improved energy drain feats from Libris Mortis - not only was it wearing armor and other AC boosting equipment, but it had used a scroll of greater invisibility before the battle. Basically, it was spring attacking us against our flatfooted touch ACs for sneak attack damage, plus two negative levels (each of which cost us 13 hp instead of the usual 5, and gave it an equal amount of temporary hp), and gaining cumulative bonuses on all of its rolls at the same time.

Granted, it was probably CR 15 or so, but good god that was a hard battle.