9th level bard?

[Emon]

Im working on building a bard, planning on going bard 8 or 9/fighter for a couple levels and then progressing on to a prestige class to be determined at a later date.

Is going up to 9th level bard generally considered to be worth it, or should I stop at 8? Inspire greatness looks to me to be a good ability, though at 9th level i wouldnt progress in spells or BAB.

Im relatively new to DnD, and to date the only characters i've played have been pretty basic melee only, so I'm trying to learn what I can about building characters with spellcasting ability.

Thanks for any help

[Azerian Kelimon]

If you want a totally amazing bard, screw spellcasting. Focus EVERY. Single. Skill point you can get on Perform, and abuse fascinate while your party buffs up for each encounter. Also, Inspire greatness isn't THAT great an ability, but it is nice to have. I'd get it.

[Ganurath]

Well, this depends rather heavily on your bard's role in the party, what the other members of the party do, your play style, and your feat/skill/spell options for PrC requirements. In short, more info please while I read up some PrCs for you.

[Green Bean]

If you want a totally amazing bard, screw spellcasting. Focus EVERY. Single. Skill point you can get on Perform, and abuse fascinate while your party buffs up for each encounter. Also, Inspire greatness isn't THAT great an ability, but it is nice to have. I'd get it.

Facinate isn't so good against ambushes or undead, though. One trick ponies tend to be boring to play, too.

[Emon]

Because its what im most familiar with, I dont want to give up melee combat completely, but i want the character to be more based around the bardic music abilities, and social interaction. For spells i was thinking illusion spells (Silent image)though with some spells that are useful in combat (Cure light wounds because our parties always seem to lack a healer, haste maybe)

At 8-9th level i would have 6/4/4/3 spells so i was thinking something like
0 - Flare, Prestidigitation, Mending, Ghost Sound, Message, Read Magic
1 - Cure Light Wounds, Grease, Charm Person, Silent Image
2 - Alter Self, Glitterdust, Cats Grace/Heroism, Swift Invisibility/Swift Fly
3 - Haste, Glibness, Harmonic Chorus

I was thinking bard 8-9, either Fighter 2 for the bonus feats, or swashbuckler 3 if i have enough int to make insightful strike useful.

I was looking at a couple prestige classes, Virtuoso seemed interesting for the progression of bardic music, but i dont really see how its a better option than staying in bard. Eldritch Knight was kind of intriguing, for the full BAB and progressing spellcasting, but I dont think bard spellcasting progresses fast enough to make it worthwhile. So if there are any prestige class suggestions they would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for all the help so far!

[Starbuck_II]

An awesome 1st level spell is spell compendruim's Improvisation:
At level 8, You get 16 luck points. Only 1/2 caster can be spent on one thing each time (so 4).
You can spend them to increase attack rolls, skill checks, or ability checks.

This spell helps Bards become real Jack of All Trades.

[Temp]

Look at the Sublime Chord* class in Complete Arcane. It's necessary in most spellcasting-focused Bard builds. It only requires 7 Bard levels, though.

If you don't plan on going SC, straight Bard (or a spellcasting-advancing prestige class) is the way to go; Spellcasting is your friend.

So you might think about something along the lines of Bard 7/Crusader or Warblade 3/Sublime Chord 10 or Bard 7/Duskblade 3/Sublime Chord 10.

Crusader and Warblade (ToB) give you some extra combat ability and access to Song of the White Raven. You'd probably do best arranging the levels: Bard 4/Warblade 1/Bard 3/Crusader 2/SC 10.

Duskblade (PHB2) 3 allows you to channel spells through your weapon, which can be useful.

*Bolded because it is so good that it deserves Bold-ing.

[Toliudar]

You're right about bardic spell progression NOT making eldritch knight worthwhile.

For a martial bard build, check out the Warchanter (Complete Warrior) for full BAB, decent skills, a couple moderately useful new song abilities, and continued music progression. My favourite bard Prestige class, Sublime Chord takes you in the opposite direction, emphasizing spellcasting over combat.

If you do decide to multi-class to a martial class, consider swashbuckler over fighter, if you can hold out for insightful strike.

[Nermy]

If you want combat and magic Abjurant Champion from Complete Mage is the best way to go. 10d HD, Full BAB, Full Spellcasting, and some neat abilities.

[Keld Denar]

You're right about bardic spell progression NOT making eldritch knight worthwhile.

For a martial bard build, check out the Warchanter (Complete Warrior) for full BAB, decent skills, a couple moderately useful new song abilities, and continued music progression. My favourite bard Prestige class, Sublime Chord takes you in the opposite direction, emphasizing spellcasting over combat.

If you do decide to multi-class to a martial class, consider swashbuckler over fighter, if you can hold out for insightful strike.

Moderately useful? Warchanter grants an ability similar to Heedless Charge (not to be confused with headless charge), which is similar to the feature that you get from Shocktrooper. It allows you to sac your AC to increase your +hit when you Power Attack (so the -AC goes to +dmg). This is an amazing ability. Get your bard a 2 handed weapon (like a whip dagger, can be wielded 2 handed and PAed with) and spank some people around for like, 1d4+50. Its that good.

[Temp]

So Bard 7/Warchanter (CWar) 3/Sublime Chord (CArc) 10 is a strong skeleton of a rather simple build. It has 9th level Wizard spells, Inspire Recklessness, and good skillpoints/saves.

It could dabble with some more prestige classes, particularly after Sublime Chord 1, and gain a bit more power, but this could work as a center point.

Ironically, 9th level will be this character's weakest point, but if you can snag Arcane Strike (CWar) and some proper buff spells (Haste and Mirror Image come to mind), you should survive pretty well up to 10th. Then you can get Inspire Recklessness and redeem yourself.


Maybe something Like Bard 8/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 1/Sublime Chord 1/JPM 9 would work as well. 9th level spells, Initiator Level 15, 17 Base Attack...

[Chronos]

some spells that are useful in combat (Cure light wounds because our parties always seem to lack a healer, haste maybe)Cure light wounds is not useful in combat. Almost anything can do more than 1d8+5 damage in a round, which means that if you spend a round casting cure light wounds on someone, they still have less HP at the end of the round than at the beginning, and you haven't done anything to the enemy in that round. Cure light wounds can be OK out of combat, when time isn't of the essence, but in combat, you never want to cast any healing spell less than the most powerful available (preferably Heal).

[Emon]

just for healing in general. The only healing our group has is someone with a wand of cure light wounds, so anything would come in handy, even if it is just to stabilize someone.

It probably could be replaced by something a bit more useful in all situations, or I could just buy a wand I guess.

[Ossian]

Another useful info. What level are you in now? If you're level 5 or 6, well, I'd agree that it's time to consider if you really want to be a bard 8 or 9 or rather move to something else. If you are level 1st, I don't suppose you will gain 8 levels in 8 sessions, or in 8 game-time days. Your character could go through a lot of changes and transformation in personality and background, so you might just as well be forced to pick up something different altogether.
In short: consider your story too, before planning 20 or even 10 levels of your character.

Of course, a 5/6/2/4/2/1 class progression is cool, but we're talking like "Elric of Melnibonè". if your bard is 1st level, uh, there's a long road ahead of him.

More IT, I do like fascinate, and 9th level bard is cool ;)
O.

[Hawriel]

I suggest using the PRC bard from Unearthed Arcana.

the requirements are Knowladge (any) 4 Perform 8, the ability to cast 1st level arcane spell from the echanment, illusion, and divination schools.

Perform is a class skill for the Monk and Rogue. Take 4 levels of one of them and one level of sorc or wizard, at level 6 become a prc bard. why the work? because this bards spells per day/known advance as what ever arcane caster class you took. You also can use any spells that the chosen archane class would normaly use. The PRC bard still has all the bardic abilities as well. just delayed a little. if your worried about your caster level being behind dont. there is a feat in one of the arcane books that bumps up your caster level by 4. Its made just for multie class casters.

[Temp]

Perform is a class skill for the Monk and Rogue. Take 4 levels of one of them and one level of sorc or wizard, at level 6 become a prc bard.Monk would be awkward with its alignment shift, but there's probably some way to make Rogue work.

I'm a fan of Bard as a base class because it's Multiclasses and Prestige Classes well...
Swiftblade, Chameleon and Lyric Thaumaturge are fun options; Sublime Chord is optimization gold. Crusaders, Warblades and Dread Pirates are great for Inspire Courage-based Bards,

And does Prestige Bard get Suggestion in UA? It doesn't on the SRD. And it takes hits to Bardic Music uses/day and Song of Freedom use.

[SofS]

A good martial bard can be a lot of fun to play. If you plan to be a main target in combat, you should consider making it up to 4th level bard spells and grabbing Ruin Delver's Fortune. It's an awesome defensive spell. Of course, you can do that with 4th level spells in any class that uses the Sor/Wiz list, so it shouldn't be too hard to get.

[nerulean]

If you want to keep it really simple, there are plenty of ways to play a decent melee bard. You'll never quite match the fighter for damage or durability, but he'll love you for standing next to him and keeping him buffed with your Inspire Courage.

One thing that might be worth doing is using a reach weapon of some kind. Whip blades are effectively whips without the disadvantages, which will let you stand a good distance away from the opponent so he can't hit you and do a little damage, or a lot of damage if you're power attacking, or attempt to trip him, thus stopping him from full attacking and letting everyone around get an attack of opportunity when he tries to get up again. Spiked chains work just as well.

You'll want to focus Cha and Str, then probably stick every remaining point into Con to try and keep your head above water for long enough that you don't become a liability because of the lack of healing. Get your Perform into the stratosphere (probably Perform: Sing, since you don't want to be down a hand in combat) and consider pumping your UMD as well: after all, if you can get your hands on cleric buffs then you can use every single combat cleric optimisation that's been posted on many a board.

You'll need to choose your feats wisely, since they're where most of your combat prowess will come from, and you'll be sacrificing some of your bardic abilities to make them work, but you should be okay.

As for whether to take Bard 9, it's entirely personal choice. Unless you're building straight to a high level, play around with it lower down and consider whether the extra buff would actually be useful. For a combat bard, it might swing it, but if you end up with buffs coming from another source then you might be better off going for more combat-related levels earlier.

[BardicDuelist]

While playing a melee bard is inticing (look at my name), it is difficult. Here's how I recomend doing it:

DO NOT GRAB the two fighter levels, you will miss the spells and skills WAY too much.

Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 3/Abjurant Champion 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 9 is a decent way to go, but you will need a way to make Perform a class skills (and you'll probably want either bluff or diplomacy too). The lack of skill ranks may be an issue, or it may not.

Personally, I would ask my DM if he'd drop the HD to d8 on Abjurant Champion to add perform, bluff, and diplomacy class skills, and make it 4+Int, but your DM may not allow these options.

Annother useful thing is the Crusader/Bard thing with Song of the White Raven, but we don't use ToB much, so I can't help there.

Warchanter is good, but I wouldn't take it past third level. (Also, note that there are some screwey things as far as Perform ranks required for abilities go...) Bard 6/Warchanter 3/Abjurant Champion(modified) 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion(modified) 9 would be an excellent build for a melee bard.

Note that Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 10 is still a good melee combatant, if you combine some melee things with clever spellcasting (polymorph, etc).


All of the above, absurd multiclassing included, can be completely irrelavant if you just make your bard a buffing bard, who buffs himself with the party and saves some music uses to fascinate/suggest can be a great melee combatant with the right feat choices. There are some feats in Dragon 305 that give Cha to things like AC and Attack which are nice, and Snowflake Wardance is really nice.

Just note that for a bard, multiclassing isn't worth it, but PrCing/multiclassing PrCs can be really fruitful. The one exception to this is the White Raven ToB build.

[PlatinumJester]

Words of Creation from BoED is VERY VERY good.

[Temp]

Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 3/Abjurant Champion 1/Sublime Chord 1/Abjurant Champion 9 is a decent way to go, but you will need a way to make Perform a class skills (and you'll probably want either bluff or diplomacy too). The lack of skill ranks may be an issue, or it may not.Abjurant Champion is a 5 level Prestige class...


Just note that for a bard, multiclassing isn't worth it, but PrCing/multiclassing PrCs can be really fruitful. The one exception to this is the White Raven ToB build.
Bards that go into Sublime Chord really have nothing to lose with their extra 3 levels... Paladin of Freedom is a popular choice for the save bonuses and Compulsion immunities, Marshal's good for two minor Auras. Arcane Duelist could be good, but only if you don't have to go out of your way for the prerequisites.


Annother useful thing is the Crusader/Bard thing with Song of the White Raven, but we don't use ToB much, so I can't help there.The basis of this is taking either 4 or 6 levels of Bard and spending the rest of your career as a Warblade or Crusader, focusing on White Raven Stances and whatever Maneuvers strike your fancy. The end result is a better melee character than the typical Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin with Swift-Action Inspire Courage (better than a straight Bard's) boosting all your allies.

This is improved with the Song of the Heart* (ECS) and Words of Creation** (BoED) feats combined with the Inspirational Boost Spell* (SpC), the Vest of Legends*** (DMG2) and the Badge of Valor* (MIC).

*+1 to Inspire Courage bonuses
**Doubling all existing IC bonuses.
***Five levels higher for Inspire Courage--Usually +1 more

[Azerian Kelimon]

Speaking of songs, you might want to take a look at the various Bardic Music feats dispersed in a few books. Some of them provide very nice bonuses.

[BardicDuelist]

Abjurant Champion is a 5 level Prestige class...


Bards that go into Sublime Chord really have nothing to lose with their extra 3 levels... Paladin of Freedom is a popular choice for the save bonuses and Compulsion immunities, Marshal's good for two minor Auras. Arcane Duelist could be good, but only if you don't have to go out of your way for the prerequisites.


Ah, forgot that it's five level. Well, then take the other five in Sublime Chord for those builds.


That's true, I had forgotten about that, as I normally take LThaumaturge to increase my spellcasting. Arcane Duelist is a really good two level dip for a melee bard. The others are good as well. I just don't recomend fighter levels, unless taking one will make AD easier to get into.

Eh scrap what I said about multiclassing if and only if you are going into Sublime Chord.

[assassin8]

From the complete scoundrel a feat called epic of the lost king, this feat let's you remove fatigue or if you use 3bardic music lets you remove exauhstion making you a barbarians best friend

[OneWinged4ngel]

Im working on building a bard, planning on going bard 8 or 9/fighter for a couple levels and then progressing on to a prestige class to be determined at a later date.

Is going up to 9th level bard generally considered to be worth it, or should I stop at 8? Inspire greatness looks to me to be a good ability, though at 9th level i wouldnt progress in spells or BAB.

Im relatively new to DnD, and to date the only characters i've played have been pretty basic melee only, so I'm trying to learn what I can about building characters with spellcasting ability.

Thanks for any help

My personal favorite melee bard only goes four levels of Bard, then heads into either Crusader or Warblade with the Song of the White Raven multiclass feat (this will get you melee damage in the hundreds, a very powerful inspire courage (around +12/+12, or +12d6 energy damage to attacks with Dragonfire Inspiration), 9th level maneuvers, and sweet skill points). However, Bard 8 is a common stopping point for many optimized bard builds, since that's basically when Inspire Courage optimization tops out (and Inspire Courage is one of the best songs ya get, along with Fascinate/Suggestion).


Ah, forgot that it's five level. Well, then take the other five in Sublime Chord for those builds.

Often, you'll wanna take Sublime Chord 2 levels. Then you can progress its spellcasting with some other full progression PrC. However, Sublime Chord is not often used in melee bard builds, AFAIK.

[nerulean]

Sublime Chord is not often used in melee bard builds, AFAIK.

QFT. If you want to make your bard into a melée combatant, then turning her into a sorcerer is slightly counter productive, not to mention nine levels of spell casting can be a bit daunting if you're still learning how everything works.

The Tome of Battle build using either crusader or warblade is really strong, but adds another level of complexity with maneuvers as well as spells. I'd hate to see what the character sheet would look like. If you're not trying to really optimise, and the rest of your party don't either so you won't feel left behind, a bard can be competent in melée with nothing outside of core. A couple of strategically-placed fighter levels will snag you some of the feats and BAB you're lacking, and the skill loss doesn't really kill you because the DCs on charisma-based skills usually lag well behind appropriate levels.

[cupkeyk]

I believe in shameless PRC dipping

Bard6 Lyric Thaumaturge4 Sublime Chord1 Abjurant Champion4 Mindbender1 Fatespinner4

(The last level of abjurant champion, martial arcanist is useless. Your BAB is middling, your CL is 20, come on! Is this even a question?)

[Hawriel]

Monk would be awkward with its alignment shift, but there's probably some way to make Rogue work.

I'm a fan of Bard as a base class because it's Multiclasses and Prestige Classes well...
Swiftblade, Chameleon and Lyric Thaumaturge are fun options; Sublime Chord is optimization gold. Crusaders, Warblades and Dread Pirates are great for Inspire Courage-based Bards,

And does Prestige Bard get Suggestion in UA? It doesn't on the SRD. And it takes hits to Bardic Music uses/day and Song of Freedom use.

Well it gets mass suggestion just like the normal bard does. I dont see suggestion though. Thats just dumb. I'd just ask a DM and house rule it in at 6th level whare it should be.

I just put down monk and rogue because they both have perform as class skills. Using a rogue will work very well because you would start out with more skills, even if you gota wait a bit for the mojo.

[Temp]

...A couple of strategically-placed fighter levels will snag you some of the feats and BAB you're lacking, and the skill loss doesn't really kill you because the DCs on charisma-based skills usually lag well behind appropriate levels.It takes four Fighter levels to even dent a Bard's Base Attack and there aren't a whole lot of necessary feats for a melee bard--from the Fighter list at least. Spellcasting and Arcane Strike is going to be more productive.

Basic feats you should really look at for a melee Bard (straight-classed):
Arcane Strike (CWar)--This turns your spells into attack bonuses and damage as a free action, it's a good feat. This becomes available at 9th level.
Power Attack--This is where damage comes from.
Snowflake Wardance (Frost)--This turns Bardic Music into attack Bonuses, which Power Attack turns into Damage. Available at 3rd level.


Other important feats:
Song of the White Raven (ToB)--It turns Inspire Courage into a Swift Action, meaning you can do stuff while you perform. Requires a White Raven Stance. It excludes use of Inspirational Boost, so your IC won't be as good as normal.

Melodic Casting (CMage)--Lets you cast spells while you perform; this makes first-turn buffing more streamlined.


I just put down monk and rogue because they both have perform as class skills. Using a rogue will work very well because you would start out with more skills, even if you gota wait a bit for the mojo.Prestige Bard may have been useful for a pre-Unseen Seer Arcane Trickster. With Unseen Seer available, I just can't think of a reason for using this class... Maybe there's some way to cheese it for Fochlucan Lyrist? Nothing occurs to me, though.

[Emon]

Thanks again for all the help guys, ive been reading up on a lot of the suggestions in here.

Sublime Chord is looking very nice, the only problem being im not entirely confident in my ability to play a spellcaster. I figured bard would be a good middle ground between full spellcaster and melee.

I think what I'll try and do is build two bard characters, one based on the sublime chord/spellcasting, and the other a melee character, to see which one works best for me. (Ill admit, tome of battle scares me)

/gets back to reading source books

[OneWinged4ngel]

Thanks again for all the help guys, ive been reading up on a lot of the suggestions in here.

Sublime Chord is looking very nice, the only problem being im not entirely confident in my ability to play a spellcaster. I figured bard would be a good middle ground between full spellcaster and melee.

I think what I'll try and do is build two bard characters, one based on the sublime chord/spellcasting, and the other a melee character, to see which one works best for me. (Ill admit, tome of battle scares me)

/gets back to reading source books

You could also go for a song-focused support or sneaky type. However, you do want to choose a place to specialize, and you want to plan out your valuable, valuable feats. Bards get awesome feats, so don't squander!

If you're going Sublime Chord, the gold standard is pretty much Bard 8 / War Weaver 1 / Recaster 1 / Sublime Chord 2 / War Weaver 4 / Recaster 4. One of the most potent buffing casters possible.

[kyuubigan]

If you want a totally amazing bard, screw spellcasting. Focus EVERY. Single. Skill point you can get on Perform, and abuse fascinate while your party buffs up for each encounter. Also, Inspire greatness isn't THAT great an ability, but it is nice to have. I'd get it.

If you're playing a bard, take Song of the Heart at level three, it will give a boost to Inspire Courage, which in turn enhances your fighting ability. Also invest at least one skill point in Perform (Wind), and buy a masterwork horn from Complete Adventurer, which will put your Inspire Courage at +3. Then, get the 1st level bard Inspirational Boost, which you can cast the same turn you start singing. With that, your Inspire Courage will be at +4. And that's only at 3rd level...