Invoke Echo?

[Guy Lombard-O]

So I'm playing a Trickery Cleric. And I'm finding it almost impossible to actually use the (very cool but mechanically unsound) Invoke Duplicity feature as anything more than a lark. In any battle which presents even a moderate challenge, my PC's concentration is simply too valuable to ever consider spending it upon the Duplicate.

I'm also playing in another game where one of the party is an Echo Knight. And seeing how useful the Echo is, it got me to wondering: just how balanced would it be to largely replace the Trickery Cleric's Duplicate with the mechanics of Manifest Echo?

If the ability still took up a Channel Divinity to create a duplicate/echo, the echo only lasted 1 minute or until destroyed (as per normal Echo conditions), but it allowed remote casting through the Echo and the Echo was still a "perfect illusion of yourself"...how well or poorly balanced would that be?

As a follow up question, how balanced would it be to replace Trickery's 17th level Improved Duplicity with Echo Knight's 7th level Echo Avatar?

[MrCharlie]

So I'm playing a Trickery Cleric. And I'm finding it almost impossible to actually use the (very cool but mechanically unsound) Invoke Duplicity feature as anything more than a lark. In any battle which presents even a moderate challenge, my PC's concentration is simply too valuable to ever consider spending it upon the Duplicate.

I'm also playing in another game where one of the party is an Echo Knight. And seeing how useful the Echo is, it got me to wondering: just how balanced would it be to largely replace the Trickery Cleric's Duplicate with the mechanics of Manifest Echo?

If the ability still took up a Channel Divinity to create a duplicate/echo, the echo only lasted 1 minute or until destroyed (as per normal Echo conditions), but it allowed remote casting through the Echo and the Echo was still a "perfect illusion of yourself"...how well or poorly balanced would that be?

As a follow up question, how balanced would it be to replace Trickery's 17th level Improved Duplicity with Echo Knight's 7th level Echo Avatar?
The only balance problem I can see if that War-Caster lets you do things a lot more impactful than a single attack. Otherwise it's a good update to trickery to bring it in line with similar abilities.

[Segev]

I would suggest talking to your DM about trying it out in your game for a few sessions. If you or he feel it is breaking things, you can tweak it or undo it.

It does seem to me like giving Manifest Echo to a cleric domain would be on the strong side; it's 90% of a fighter subclass's utility, when the domain is both less of an impact on a cleric's overall build AND the channel divinities, with a few notable exceptions like Twilight or Peace, seem to be more "neat tricks" than "build-defining." That said, the fighter gets it for free at will, just taking action economy, while Channel Divinity is a limited resource, so an "Echo" cleric isn't going to be playing the same way the echo knight is.

Certainly, I am inclined to say that moving the level 7 feature of the Fighter subclass to the level 17 feature of the cleric isn't going to overpower anything at all, and might be quite weak for a level 17 feature. So that's probably not a problem; if there's a problem, it'd be with the 2nd level Channel Divinity taking on the 3rd level Fighter subclass feature.

But like I said, far from asking us here, I suggest trying it out. The worst that can happen from trying it out (barring it somehow getting your PC killed, which is unlikely) is that it doesn't work out well. Even if hideously broken, you trounce a fight or two before reigning it back in.

[MrStabby]

So I'm playing a Trickery Cleric. And I'm finding it almost impossible to actually use the (very cool but mechanically unsound) Invoke Duplicity feature as anything more than a lark. In any battle which presents even a moderate challenge, my PC's concentration is simply too valuable to ever consider spending it upon the Duplicate.

I'm also playing in another game where one of the party is an Echo Knight. And seeing how useful the Echo is, it got me to wondering: just how balanced would it be to largely replace the Trickery Cleric's Duplicate with the mechanics of Manifest Echo?

If the ability still took up a Channel Divinity to create a duplicate/echo, the echo only lasted 1 minute or until destroyed (as per normal Echo conditions), but it allowed remote casting through the Echo and the Echo was still a "perfect illusion of yourself"...how well or poorly balanced would that be?

As a follow up question, how balanced would it be to replace Trickery's 17th level Improved Duplicity with Echo Knight's 7th level Echo Avatar?

So short answer... yeah, its probably fine. And the level 17 is probably fine also.

Longer answer...

Firstly, just check you are getting the most out of the ability.

1) You can use it for healing when you don't have the speed to reach someone - or if it is too dangerous e.g. lots of attacks of opportunity along the way.

2) It lets you reach out and hit people with some attacks at range. Ok this basically means inflict wounds, but its a use.

3) It lets you get advantage on inflict wounds

4) It can be used before a fight - luring enemies into traps, getting them to waste their spell slots etc.. Then just drop concentration

Yeah... its not much.


Secondly, does the class need a buff? It really depends on the level of optimisation at your table and the type of campaign you are playing. Different clerics have different strengths and weaknesses and the strength of the trickery cleric is in its domain spell list. If you have a social campaign then the spells are awesome. If your DM doesn't let you get much use out of them then the subclass is a bit rubbish. Likewise if you are not actually dealing with people, your poison damage on your attacks is a bit rubbish (though if you use Tasha's optional rules it gets better).



But thirdly, is the echo knight ability what you really want? What do you see the ability doing? What is your character concept? What kind of fantasy concept do you want? Is this tweak going to fulfil it?

It kind of feels like taking a fighter ability isn't going to make you feel more like a trickery cleric, which is fine - but you probably chose the class because you wanted to play a cleric. I guess I am saying if you are going to change the rules for a class you might as well make sure they scratch your itch.

[Segev]

Huh. Just double-checking myself: you can center spirit guardians on your Duplicity image, right?

Edit: Never mind; both require Concentration. I knew I was forgetting something.

[DaFlipp]

Huh. Just double-checking myself: you can center spirit guardians on your Duplicity image, right?

I'm pretty sure the duplicity image uses up your concentration, so I don't think so.

[Thorlike]

Trickery Domain also gets another way to use their Channel Divinity at level 6.
So if one is under the assumption that Invoke Duplicity is not the strongest channel divinity. Trickery still has more options than most other domains. There's only a couple of other domains that gain additional options for their channel divinity.
Even though the level 6 feature isn't the most powerful option out there.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Firstly, just check you are getting the most out of the ability.

1) You can use it for healing when you don't have the speed to reach someone - or if it is too dangerous e.g. lots of attacks of opportunity along the way.

2) It lets you reach out and hit people with some attacks at range. Ok this basically means inflict wounds, but its a use.

3) It lets you get advantage on inflict wounds

4) It can be used before a fight - luring enemies into traps, getting them to waste their spell slots etc.. Then just drop concentration

Yeah... its not much.

I'll admit, it's not entirely worthless. It's just...not much (well said).

It does extend the reach of your healing, taking Healing Word from 60' to 90' on the turn you create it (create ID 30' away). Which takes an Action. Which could be spent on Dash or maybe Disengage. It's still better than those options, if the ground in between is dangerous. But it comes at the cost of your precious concentration. In a serious battle, one with large distances and dangerous middle grounds where you don't want to enter, is this really how you want to be using your concentration? Maybe...in certain specific circumstances...I guess?

Inflict Wounds is pretty decent damage for the spell level. But it's not so great that you want to be burning spell slots and your concentration to make it work (unless we're talking Hold Person/auto-crits...but there's that pesky concentration problem again). There's also Word of Radiance (with a little Blessed Strikes bump) for slapping a few low-HP mooks. But again, is this really going to be worth your concentration? No Hold Person. No Spirit Guardians. No Summon Celestial. I dunno. Kinda iffy.

The other problem with ID is that it eats up your bonus actions to reposition it for effective combat. So Spiritual Weapon is mostly off the table while you pursue this (already questionable) tactic.

Using the Duplicate at the beginning of a fight to draw off a few attacks and sew some confusion is the only legitimately effective battle tactic I've come up with. It requires a little bit of DM cooperation, and it's definitely a one-round tactic, but overall it's okay. Still, I've never drawn out an actual spell slot using it, only weapon attacks (although of course YMMV).



Secondly, does the class need a buff? It really depends on the level of optimisation at your table and the type of campaign you are playing. Different clerics have different strengths and weaknesses and the strength of the trickery cleric is in its domain spell list. If you have a social campaign then the spells are awesome. If your DM doesn't let you get much use out of them then the subclass is a bit rubbish. Likewise if you are not actually dealing with people, your poison damage on your attacks is a bit rubbish (though if you use Tasha's optional rules it gets better).

But thirdly, is the echo knight ability what you really want? What do you see the ability doing? What is your character concept? What kind of fantasy concept do you want? Is this tweak going to fulfil it?

It kind of feels like taking a fighter ability isn't going to make you feel more like a trickery cleric, which is fine - but you probably chose the class because you wanted to play a cleric. I guess I am saying if you are going to change the rules for a class you might as well make sure they scratch your itch.

You're 100% correct, Trickery domain is decent enough overall. But it's not just the urge to powergame that makes me want ID to work better. It's that I really like the theme and idea of an illusion-using trickery cleric using Duplicates in battle. Unfortuantely, the mechanics make doing so increasingly harsh in opportunity costs as you level up and get the better concentration spells (and enough slots to use them frequently).

You may be right that the Echo mechanics aren't the perfect solution here. But it seems like the combination of a "perfect illusion" which disappears when it takes a 1HP hit (okay, I'll say it...like Loki :smallamused:) would be less painful to use, even though it's infinitely more fragile, than the current ID mechanics. I guess that's the itch I'm wanting to scratch...but not at the cost of making my PC much less effective in combat (to the point where using ID makes me feel guilty about letting the party down, in a moderate/deadly fight).


Trickery Domain also gets another way to use their Channel Divinity at level 6.
So if one is under the assumption that Invoke Duplicity is not the strongest channel divinity. Trickery still has more options than most other domains. There's only a couple of other domains that gain additional options for their channel divinity.
Even though the level 6 feature isn't the most powerful option out there.

You're not wrong. And 1/2 rounds of concentration-free invisibility certainly isn't bad.

Unfortunately, it just makes using ID feel like that much more of a trap option, rather than something which you might actually want to do. And I DO want to!

The full Trickery kit is certainly good enough. It's not that it needs a power bump or anything. It's just that I can't help wishing that the theoretically coolest feature in the subclass was actually something functional enough to make it realistically feasible to use. Which is why I want Playground feedback about whether this change is a fair, balanced replacement (rather than a pure upgrade).

[Bobthewizard]

It might be simpler to just ask if you could remove the concentration part of the ability as long as you don't cast concentration spells through it. Talk to the DM about why you think it deserves it.

If you already have an echo knight, I'd leave the echo to them. If that's a different game, then I don't think your request breaks anything.

[Guy Lombard-O]

It might be simpler to just ask if you could remove the concentration part of the ability as long as you don't cast concentration spells through it.

Yeah, it occurred to me that concentration spells would be a mess if cast through a fragile, disposable duplicate. Like Spiritual Guardians...what happens if the duplicate/echo is ended?!? Good thought.


If you already have an echo knight, I'd leave the echo to them. If that's a different game, then I don't think your request breaks anything.

Absolutely. Different game.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I think removing the Concentration requirement from Invoke Duplicity, is a good way to go, with the caveat that spells with the target of Self, adhere to you and not to the Dupplicate.

A non-dispellable, invulnerable, Drone that can be positioned to deliver a Spirit Guardian effect, is going to be overwhelming for some games.

The Duplicate's peak power level is around 4th to 5th level, in my eperience.

If you can box creatures into a confined space, Cantrip spaming through the Duplicate can often resolve an encounter involving creatures with low Hit Points.

At Higher levels, I've used the Dupplicate for more clandestine (mis)adventures.

This is an aside, but I wish Cloak of Shadows was a Bonus Action, so a Cleric of Trickery could Hide on the same round they use that particuliar Channel Divinity.