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Damionte
2007-11-20, 11:36 AM
Sup gang,

I have a quick question for the panel. or not so quick since I'm not sure this is addressed in the rules anywhere.

Say you have different effects that reduce damage. Which effects happen first.

For instance. Say you're trying to damage a wooden object like a door with a fire breath weapon.

-The door has hardness 5 which will reduce damage by 5.
-Wooden doors also take half damage from fire based attacks.

If you rolled up 20 damage on the dice, which happens first?

Do you half the damage and then apply hardness. Thus producing 5 damage?

Or do you apply hardness and cut the remaining damage in half, doing 7?

Fixer
2007-11-20, 11:47 AM
Divide by 2 first, then apply hardness. It is in the SRD.

Damionte
2007-11-20, 11:48 AM
Thanks.

That's how I was doing it. Just wanted to make sure.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-11-20, 11:49 AM
Generally they are applied in the order that is most beneficial to the object or creature possessing the damage modifying effects, abilities or traits if no order of application is provided in their description.

This was clarified in the FAQ in an entry about saves, vulnerability and resistance to fire IIRC.

Your case is, however, explicitly covered by the rules.


Energy Attacks: Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.

Karsh
2007-11-20, 12:31 PM
I would argue that fire damage deals full if not double damage to wooden objects, personally, though.

Techonce
2007-11-20, 12:38 PM
I would argue that fire damage deals full if not double damage to wooden objects, personally, though.

If it is a sustained flame then wood is suseptible, but a very short burst isn't overly effective on wood.

Double damage isn't right, but half is kind of cheap.

tainsouvra
2007-11-20, 01:18 PM
I would argue that fire damage deals full if not double damage to wooden objects, personally, though. Surprisingly, because wood is a poor conductor of heat, it actually endures sudden bursts of flame better than most materials. If it ignites, it'll torch, but if it doesn't it tends to survive better than most metals (for example).

Jasdoif
2007-11-20, 02:00 PM
This was clarified in the FAQ in an entry about saves, vulnerability and resistance to fire IIRC.

Your case is, however, explicitly covered by the rules.Indeed.


If a monster has resistance and vulnerability to the same kind of damage (such as fire), which effect is applied first? And when does the saving throw come in?

Always roll a saving throw before applying any effects that would increase or reduce the damage dealt. For example, if a frost giant is struck by a fireball that would deal 35 points of damage, it would roll its Reflex save, then apply its vulnerability to fire after determining how much damage the fireball would normally deal. If the save failed, the frost giant would take 52 points of damage: 35 + one-half of 35 (17.5, rounded down to 17). A successful save would mean the frost giant suffered only 25 points of damage: one-half of 35 rounded down (17), plus one-half of 17 rounded down (8).

If the creature has both resistance and vulnerability to the same kind of damage, apply the resistance (which reduces the damage dealt by the effect) before applying the vulnerability (which increases the damage taken by the creature). For example, imagine our frost giant wore a ring of minor fire resistance (granting resistance to fire 10). If the save failed, the frost giant would take 37 points of fire damage: 35 (fireball) Ė 10 (resistance to fire 10) = 25, plus one-half of 25 (12.5, rounded down to 12). If the save succeeded, the frost giant would take only 10 points of damage: 17 (half damage from the fireball, rounded down) Ė 10 (resistance to fire 10) = 7, plus one-half of 7 (3.5, rounded down to 3).

As a general guideline, whenever the rules donít stipulate an order of operations for special effects (such as spells or special abilities), you should apply them in the order thatís most beneficial to the creature. In the case of damage, this typically means applying any damage-reducing effects first, before applying any effects that would increase damage.



Your case is, however, explicitly covered by the rules.Conveniently in this case, the rules also happen to specify the order most beneficial to the object.

For reference, the most beneficial order for varying damage effects (assuming you want minimum damage) is generally either: Linear increases, then percentage decreases, then linear decreases, then percentage increases; or Percentage decreases, then linear decreases, then percentage increases, then linear increases.Not that percentage-type modifiers are common....

Townopolis
2007-11-20, 03:50 PM
So then a barbarian with DR 3/- and Protection from Acid who took 8 acid damage would have 3 points negated by his own DR and 5 by the spell (since the spell runs out after a certain amount has been absorbed)?

Jasdoif
2007-11-20, 03:58 PM
So then a barbarian with DR 3/- and Protection from Acid who took 8 acid damage would have 3 points negated by his own DR and 5 by the spell (since the spell runs out after a certain amount has been absorbed)?DR doesn't apply here, DR never protects against energy damage.

In general such an arrangement would would work, however; if you had natural acid resistance and an active protection from energy spell keyed to acid, you'd apply your acid resistance to reduce the damage first, because that's the most beneficial order to apply them in. Note that this doesn't work if your acid resistance comes from the resist energy spell, as the order of application for resist energy and protection from energy is explicitly called out: the protection effect works until exhausted, then resist energy can work.