Player help for a simulacrum

[Mrark]

Hi everyone! I am playing a high level, decently but not exaggeratedly optimised campaign, and I happen to have the chance to get a simulacrum. What I'd be looking for is something that could be a true support for a wizard, even though I don't know if what I'm seeking does even exist. I am a level 13 (for now) wizard5 incantatrix 8 and will get to become high incantatrix at higher levels. I am focussed on transmutation and I play a save or suck/die fighting style, while in my off-time I am an academic, a university professor. I am looking for a simulacrum that could either boost my spells somehow, or anyway something arcane-related.

I know this is a weird request :smallbiggrin:
Any idea or any suggestion is welcome, thanks everybody for your time

[Rebel7284]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622924-Rebel-s-Optimization-Showcase-Nood-the-Legend-Maker

This build I made is fun for buffing casters and such. Is there an HD limit on what you are copying with a simulacrum?

Also, High Incanatrix is a homebrew class. If your DM okays it, it's fine of course, but it's definitely not official in any capacity.

[Mrark]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622924-Rebel-s-Optimization-Showcase-Nood-the-Legend-Maker

This build I made is fun for buffing casters and such. Is there an HD limit on what you are copying with a simulacrum?


Also, High Incanatrix is a homebrew class. If your DM okays it, it's fine of course, but it's definitely not official in any capacity.


The HD limit is twice my caster level, so (with some buffs) is 30.

Also yes, I've already talked it through with my dm, so don't worry :smallsmile:
I'll check the link now

[King of Nowhere]

I am the OP dm, and I must add a part that he left out: for balance reasons, I nerfed some of the rules of simulacrum a bit. the main power of simulacrum is that the creature gets half hit dice, with greatly reduced melee combat capacity, but they keep all their special qualities, including some powerful spellcasting.
So I ruled that
- special qualities can be depowered, judging case-by-case. in particular, regarding spellcasting special qualities, it will be attempted to half their level too. for example, a solar casts as a cleric 20, and by the rules of simulacrum a solar simulacrum with 10 hd will still cast as a cleric 20. under my rules, a solar simulacrum casts as a cleric 10. among his spell-like abilities, those spells above 6th level (which the angel could not cast with its reduced casting) are removed, the other are shifted from at-will to 1/day or 3/day
- in any case, any xp cost of a spell must be payed by the simulacrum's controller

so, the standard answer to "what's the best simulacrum" is generally some creature with 1/day wish abilities, so you get free wish; under my nerf, that is no longer possible.

[unseenmage]

Some important Qs for a GM to ponder on Simulacrum..

Does the copy get the original's memories?
RAW? Yeah. But the intention from previous editions seems to be to roll a % every time inherited memories come up.

Can the Sim get templates? If the answer is a blanket no then the Sim is immune to lycanthropy, vampirism, etc. as well as certain spells like Mineralize Warrior.

Is a Sim created naked? This matters more than it seems. If one is using Sim to replace political figures who do not know they are Sims then having a memory of being suddenly naked could clue appropriately knowledgeable Sims or someone interrogating them that they are not who they think they are. (As an aside, a spellcaster Sim might cast detect magic and see the remnants of the spell.which created them thereby getting a clue as to why they're naked without memory of how they apoeared, but that trace of magic doesn't last for long iirc.)

Also, certain items are considered a part of the creature. A Warforged Integrated Components, grafts, and a half Golem character's golem limb among them.
More important for game balance reasons items often make up more than half of a character's 'power' and stripping those away can create significantly weaker versions of some character's.

Are Sims alive? Do they share their progenitors type? Can they recieve magical or natural healing? Do they age? Do they reproduce?
RAW they aren't not alive. They should age and heal and eat and rest like the original. Maybe having a Simulacrum ancestor creates a Sorcerer bloodline later on.
The line about healing in the Sim spell is additive and makes no mention of being the only way a Sim can heal.

Can you make a Sim of a Sim of a Sim? Some monster superpowers are indivisible and getting bargain bin discount copies of said powers for the low low price of fractional HD could prove problematic.

These questions and more lie in wait for any unwary game that dares to entreat the legendary Simulacrum spell. Beware! BEWARE!
But seriously this spell is a mess and I hope you have fun with it.

I recommend picking a side in the debate about Sjms being 'illusory copies', either it is "illusory" in your game and a magical shadowstuff monstrosity of muttered almost words and barely conscious or it instead emphasizes the "copy" side of its description and it is a functioning NPC with opinions and a lifespan and a purpose supplanted by the caster's will when they actively force it to obey them.

As my responses to the Qs I've listed above shows I favor the copy side. To me one has to make up too many things whole cloth to emphasize the illusion part of the spell.

[Jack_Simth]

Hi everyone! I am playing a high level, decently but not exaggeratedly optimised campaign, and I happen to have the chance to get a simulacrum. What I'd be looking for is something that could be a true support for a wizard, even though I don't know if what I'm seeking does even exist. I am a level 13 (for now) wizard5 incantatrix 8 and will get to become high incantatrix at higher levels. I am focussed on transmutation and I play a save or suck/die fighting style, while in my off-time I am an academic, a university professor. I am looking for a simulacrum that could either boost my spells somehow, or anyway something arcane-related.

I know this is a weird request :smallbiggrin:
Any idea or any suggestion is welcome, thanks everybody for your time
What's your HD limit? I mean, even with reduced power, a Great Wyrm Gold is nice: Sorcerer-9 casting, 20 hit dice, 32 Int to go with 6 skill points/level and a class skill list of Listen, Search, Spot, Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Intimidate, and Sense Motive (assuming 3.5). And Alternate Form means it can act as a familiar.

Alternately:
Yourself. A little risky if it gets subborned, but you'd either end up with a Wizard-5/Incantrix-1 or a Wizard-2/Incantrix-4. But it can act in your stead reasonably well, usually.

[King of Nowhere]

Some important Qs for a GM to ponder on Simulacrum..

Does the copy get the original's memories?
RAW? Yeah. But the intention from previous editions seems to be to roll a % every time inherited memories come up.

Can the Sim get templates? If the answer is a blanket no then the Sim is immune to lycanthropy, vampirism, etc. as well as certain spells like Mineralize Warrior.

Is a Sim created naked? This matters more than it seems. If one is using Sim to replace political figures who do not know they are Sims then having a memory of being suddenly naked could clue appropriately knowledgeable Sims or someone interrogating them that they are not who they think they are. (As an aside, a spellcaster Sim might cast detect magic and see the remnants of the spell.which created them thereby getting a clue as to why they're naked without memory of how they apoeared, but that trace of magic doesn't last for long iirc.)

Also, certain items are considered a part of the creature. A Warforged Integrated Components, grafts, and a half Golem character's golem limb among them.
More important for game balance reasons items often make up more than half of a character's 'power' and stripping those away can create significantly weaker versions of some character's.

Are Sims alive? Do they share their progenitors type? Can they recieve magical or natural healing? Do they age? Do they reproduce?
RAW they aren't not alive. They should age and heal and eat and rest like the original. Maybe having a Simulacrum ancestor creates a Sorcerer bloodline later on.
The line about healing in the Sim spell is additive and makes no mention of being the only way a Sim can heal.

Can you make a Sim of a Sim of a Sim? Some monster superpowers are indivisible and getting bargain bin discount copies of said powers for the low low price of fractional HD could prove problematic.

These questions and more lie in wait for any unwary game that dares to entreat the legendary Simulacrum spell. Beware! BEWARE!
But seriously this spell is a mess and I hope you have fun with it.

I recommend picking a side in the debate about Sjms being 'illusory copies', either it is "illusory" in your game and a magical shadowstuff monstrosity of muttered almost words and barely conscious or it instead emphasizes the "copy" side of its description and it is a functioning NPC with opinions and a lifespan and a purpose supplanted by the caster's will when they actively force it to obey them.

As my responses to the Qs I've listed above shows I favor the copy side. To me one has to make up too many things whole cloth to emphasize the illusion part of the spell.
excellent questions, I already considered them. I picked the choice of "automaton, mindless but with really good programming", and every other answer is easily found from that premise.

I'd have done away with the spell entirely if it was up to me; just like I would have removed the incantatrix entirely. but mrark likes to use that stuff, so I am left trying to nerf them in a way that keeps their spirit while avoiding the worst of the brokenness and has limited potential to create plot holes.

[redking]

I am the OP dm, and I must add a part that he left out: for balance reasons, I nerfed some of the rules of simulacrum a bit. the main power of simulacrum is that the creature gets half hit dice, with greatly reduced melee combat capacity, but they keep all their special qualities, including some powerful spellcasting.
So I ruled that
- special qualities can be depowered, judging case-by-case. in particular, regarding spellcasting special qualities, it will be attempted to half their level too. for example, a solar casts as a cleric 20, and by the rules of simulacrum a solar simulacrum with 10 hd will still cast as a cleric 20. under my rules, a solar simulacrum casts as a cleric 10. among his spell-like abilities, those spells above 6th level (which the angel could not cast with its reduced casting) are removed, the other are shifted from at-will to 1/day or 3/day
- in any case, any xp cost of a spell must be payed by the simulacrum's controller

so, the standard answer to "what's the best simulacrum" is generally some creature with 1/day wish abilities, so you get free wish; under my nerf, that is no longer possible.

Those are the standard rules for simulacrum, not a nerf.


It appears to be the same as the original, but it has only one-half of the real creature’s levels or Hit Dice (and the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD).

Yes, there are people that insist that a 10 HD solar has 20th level cleric spellcasting, but they are ignoring the clear rules above.

OP - what kind of samples for copying a creature does you PC have access to? That's the hard part.

[Jack_Simth]

Those are the standard rules for simulacrum, not a nerf.Sort of. It's a reasonable interpretation of what's presented. The Simulacrum spell itself (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) is poorly defined, and there's multiple ways to interpret it in actual application. With people being people, it's pretty common for someone to think one specific one is the "true" version, and anything else is house rules. But it's not a house rule, it's a table ruling on a fuzzy section of the rules. Related, but not the same thing.

[redking]

Sort of. It's a reasonable interpretation of what's presented. The Simulacrum spell itself (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/simulacrum.htm) is poorly defined, and there's multiple ways to interpret it in actual application. With people being people, it's pretty common for someone to think one specific one is the "true" version, and anything else is house rules. But it's not a house rule, it's a table ruling on a fuzzy section of the rules. Related, but not the same thing.

Its only hard to understand or "fuzzy" if you are invested in not understanding it. The power level of the simulacrum must be in line with the "appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities for a creature of that level or HD". Spellcasting for creatures without classes is defined as a "special ability" (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm).


Some creatures are actually sorcerers of a sort. They cast arcane spells as sorcerers do, using components when required. In fact, an individual creature could have some spell-like abilities and also cast other spells as a sorcerer.

The 10 HD solar simulacrum mentioned upthread (it should be 11 HD BTW because a solar is 22 HD) will therefore have spellcasting appropriate to a creature of its HD, which would be 10th level cleric casting at 11 HD. Its still a very good deal.

[Quertus]

The 10 HD solar simulacrum mentioned upthread (it should be 11 HD BTW because a solar is 22 HD) will therefore have spellcasting appropriate to a creature of its HD, which would be 10th level cleric casting at 11 HD. Its still a very good deal.

Would it? Does the Solar have a Savage Species style breakdown of what it gets at each HD? Heck, do the existing Savage Species entries follow that logic?

Is there anything besides “this makes sense”, any actual rules to support your claim?

EDIT: this is why I greatly prefer to simplify the discussion, by using “advanced HD” monsters, or humanoid races with PC classes.

[redking]

Would it? Does the Solar have a Savage Species style breakdown of what it gets at each HD? Heck, do the existing Savage Species entries follow that logic?

Is there anything besides “this makes sense”, any actual rules to support your claim?

The spell gives the instructions. It's up to the DM to implement it. In the case of the solar, half the power seems appropriate. It wouldn't be the most powerful monster of that HD. Arguably, this is better (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm).

[Jack_Simth]

The spell gives the instructions. It's up to the DM to implement it. In the case of the solar, half the power seems appropriate. It wouldn't be the most powerful monster of that HD. Arguably, this is better (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm).

The instructions are very vague in actual implementation. Yes, it's supposed to be watered down... but "which abilities" and "how far" are up to specific DM discretion. It's "fuzzy" in the sense that different DM's will produce different results, all fully within RAW with no use of rule 0. I consider inconsistent results evidence of something being poorly defined.

How do you define "fuzzy" and "poorly defined" that the above doesn't qualify?