Elven Assassins

[CopperElfCleric]

So, as we have it... Elves are nimble, quick and tall. Strong for a thin race and yet hardy as a human. With awesome, yet limited spells at 10'th level Assassin, maybe a few levels as rogue and nothing else. What is the best way to do these four things? You are a Moon Elf Rogue 5/ Assassin 10. Explain yourself?

1. Infiltrate a stronghold

2. Defeat a equally powerful NPC in melee battle

3. Fighting a arcane caster or divine caster of equal HD

4. Figuring out if you're good or evil even though you kill for a living.

[Crake]

So, as we have it... Elves are nimble, quick and tall. Strong for a thin race and yet hardy as a human. With awesome, yet limited spells at 10'th level Assassin, maybe a few levels as rogue and nothing else. What is the best way to do these four things? You are a Moon Elf Rogue 5/ Assassin 10. Explain yourself?

Sure.


1. Infiltrate a stronghold

Invisibility.


2. Defeat a equally powerful NPC in melee battle

Greater Invisibility and scrolls of dispel magic in case they hit you with faerie fire/glitterdust/invisibility purge/they have see invisibility.


3. Fighting a arcane caster or divine caster of equal HD

Don't. Run away, cancel the contract.


4. Figuring out if you're good or evil even though you kill for a living.

Your class literally requires you to be evil, so there's no doubt about it.

[Particle_Man]

The main trouble thematically with elven assassins is that elves are associated with wizards, so if you have a high enough intelligence to make being an assassin worth using death attack for, why not be a wizard instead?

[Jervis]

The main trouble thematically with elven assassins is that elves are associated with wizards, so if you have a high enough intelligence to make being an assassin worth using death attack for, why not be a wizard instead?

Why not be a Kobold who summons Pazuzu at level 1? Because that’s boring. Sometimes you want a challenge or just want to play a different concept.

[AvatarVecna]

1. Infiltrate a stronghold

18 ranks per skill. Average +4 from attribute after items. +5 competence from items. +2 circumstance from masterwork tools. +29 on physical infiltration tools. Here's what +29 can accomplish without failure from various skills you might have:
Run across a 2-inch metal beam in a rainstorm.
Climb a brick wall or a ceiling in a rainstorm.
Disable a crushing wall trap without leaving any trace of your sabotage.
Squeeze through a long tunnel big enough to fit your head in, but not your shoulders.
Jump and grab a ledge 15 ft up.
Jump across a 30 ft wide moat.
Pick a good lock in a round.
Swim during a thunderstorm for as long as you can stay awake while carrying a medium load.
Snipe an average person from within your first range increment without being detected.

You also have a whole bunch of spells designed for this exact kinda stuff. Heck, entering the class requires Disguise. Maybe you can just walk in?

[CopperElfCleric]

Sure.



Invisibility.



Greater Invisibility and scrolls of dispel magic in case they hit you with faerie fire/glitterdust/invisibility purge/they have see invisibility.



Don't. Run away, cancel the contract.



Your class literally requires you to be evil, so there's no doubt about it.

Just because you take the Assassin PrC doesn't mean you have to be evil. Basic D&D says yes you do, but every home-game or Basic Cable D&D game I notice seems to change that rule. It's up to the DM ultimately and the GM to boot. Also up to the PC his or her self. Even goodly people send assassins to slay another for their good cause. If you're CN you just play both sides, lol.

[CopperElfCleric]

The main trouble thematically with elven assassins is that elves are associated with wizards, so if you have a high enough intelligence to make being an assassin worth using death attack for, why not be a wizard instead?

Maybe your elven house wasn't as adept at sorcery as they were as thieves and rogues. You just have that innate ability to cast the assassin spells maxed out. Up for grabs. Your choice. If we were put on earth to create the most "game-powerful" combo PC ever, then we would all be boring.

Try the DM throws you a CN Green elf Rogue 5/ Assassin 10. Not entirely good, not entirely evil, with no Lawful bone in his/ her body.

[Buufreak]

Hard to rule against the blatant raw of "The character must kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins," as well as all the extra fluffy bits about murder for the sake of it and assassinations you will find in ye olde BoVD. But sure. I'll sit and listen to yet another yarn about an apparently "good" elf that kills strictly for guild membership and money who writes it off as "I did it because I am chaotic, because randomlol."

[CopperElfCleric]

Why not be a Kobold who summons Pazuzu at level 1? Because that’s boring. Sometimes you want a challenge or just want to play a different concept.

You stole the words from my mind and posted it before me. lol. I couldn't agree more.

[CopperElfCleric]

18 ranks per skill. Average +4 from attribute after items. +5 competence from items. +2 circumstance from masterwork tools. +29 on physical infiltration tools. Here's what +29 can accomplish without failure from various skills you might have:
Run across a 2-inch metal beam in a rainstorm.
Climb a brick wall or a ceiling in a rainstorm.
Disable a crushing wall trap without leaving any trace of your sabotage.
Squeeze through a long tunnel big enough to fit your head in, but not your shoulders.
Jump and grab a ledge 15 ft up.
Jump across a 30 ft wide moat.
Pick a good lock in a round.
Swim during a thunderstorm for as long as you can stay awake while carrying a medium load.
Snipe an average person from within your first range increment without being detected.

You also have a whole bunch of spells designed for this exact kinda stuff. Heck, entering the class requires Disguise. Maybe you can just walk in?

100% I agree. Add your elven racial abilities to all said above stats and facts. A level 5 Rogue/ level 10 Assassin absolutely has the talents and skills to get in and out with a smile. Melee would be fair as well, as long as it is on the assassins terms. A spell duel is non-negotiable, but you are highly gifted in the arcane spells of deception, illusion and swift death.

[CopperElfCleric]

Hard to rule against the blatant raw of "The character must kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins," as well as all the extra fluffy bits about murder for the sake of it and assassinations you will find in ye olde BoVD. But sure. I'll sit and listen to yet another yarn about an apparently "good" elf that kills strictly for guild membership and money who writes it off as "I did it because I am chaotic, because randomlol."


Good people kill bad people all the time in the FR. But you cannot just do it in the open public so you look like a butcher. NO! You have to do such killing secretively and with skill and finesse. So good and evil people have their own assassins. That 3.5ed PrC needs to be updated.

Before battle... Cast Non Detection, True Strike, Cat's Grace, Fox's Cunning, Pass without Trace, Greater Invisibility, and lastly... Freedom of Movement.

Round 1: Critical sneak attack with weapon or spell depending on your PC and your style. If you've spent enough time, you've MARKED them, and can now use a Death attack with full stats and abilities. Target simply dies.

[Beni-Kujaku]

CopperElfCleric‚ when you're replying to several people‚ try to compress it all in one post‚ to not flood the thread

[hamishspence]

Good people kill bad people all the time in the FR. But you cannot just do it in the open public so you look like a butcher. NO! You have to do such killing secretively and with skill and finesse. So good and evil people have their own assassins. That 3.5ed PrC needs to be updated.

For "no other reason than to join the assassins" means "for no other reason". The Character's not killing somebody because they're bad, or because they're a predatory species, or to protect somebody else from The Character's victim.

The Character is killing someone for no other reason than "to join the assassins".

Hence evil.

[CopperElfCleric]

For "no other reason than to join the assassins" means "for no other reason". The Character's not killing somebody because they're bad, or because they're a predatory species, or to protect somebody else from The Character's victim.

The Character is killing someone for no other reason than "to join the assassins".

Hence evil.

You completely misunderstand what I'm saying.

[Khedrac]

Before battle... Cast Non Detection, True Strike, Cat's Grace, Fox's Cunning, Pass without Trace, Greater Invisibility, and lastly... Freedom of Movement.

Round 1: Critical sneak attack with weapon or spell depending on your PC and your style. If you've spent enough time, you've MARKED them, and can now use a Death attack with full stats and abilities. Target simply dies.
And true strike has expired - it has a 1 round duration.
Also at 15th level the chances are you will have better items bonuses that either cat's grace or fox's cunning.

That said, CopperElfCleric's general tactics are probably bang on (circumstances may cause variation).

[Jervis]

You completely misunderstand what I'm saying.

To be fair from skimming it, Avenger exists in a web article and it’s literally assassin but for any non-chaotic alignment.

[hamishspence]

You completely misunderstand what I'm saying.

If you're saying "there needs to be a version of the PRC that doesn't have the "Murder for no other reason than to get trained" requirement, it's worth noting that some similar PRCs don't have it.

The Slayer of Domiel is an Exalted LG assassin-type PRC and has no requirement of killing to enter the PRC at all.

The Black Flame Zealot modifies it to "Must slay an enemy of the faith for no other reason than to join the PRC" and has "Any nongood" instead of "Any evil".

[Particle_Man]

Also, if you want to be a better assassin than the assassin, just play a rogue and max out UMD and get some wands. Now you have more skill points, and also some nifty rogue special abilities, and no alignment restrictions whatsoever.

[redking]

If we are ignoring alignment prerequisites, how about ignoring a racial prerequisite? We will say an elven variant of the Chameleon is an 'Elven Polymath'. So Rogue 5, Elven Polymath (Chameleon) 10. Lots of different abilities, including arcane and divine spellcasting. It should be able to do the things that you ask for in the OP.

[Telonius]

4. Figuring out if you're good or evil even though you kill for a living.

Somewhere along the line, one of your targets is going to be a Paladin. When you loot the body, take his Phylactery of Faithfulness. (Won't tell you your alignment specifically, but you'll have a pretty good idea of the direction you're heading).

[Duke of Urrel]

1. Infiltrate a stronghold

2. Defeat a equally powerful NPC in melee battle

3. Fighting a arcane caster or divine caster of equal HD

4. Figuring out if you're good or evil even though you kill for a living.

In regard to number one, I agree with other commenters that you can easily infiltrate a stronghold using stealth and invisibility.

In regard to numbers two and three, I would recommend deception. Win the trust of the person you're going to kill; then take them completely by surprise. Use magic items, and don't be shy about hiring accomplices who can use magic, especially when you try to kill someone who can use magic better than you. Avoid a "fair fight" at all costs. In particular, don't allow a spellcaster to prepare for an encounter with you.

In regard to number four, I am more lenient than other commenters. So the rules require an assassin to be Evil – okay, so they do. What does your dungeon master think about this? Your character is a PC, and PCs are more likely to be exceptional than NPCs. If you're a non-Evil assassin, you will surely be exceptional, but it's up to your dungeon master to decide how exceptional you're allowed to be.

I don't believe it's possible for you first to become an assassin and then to decide whether you're Good or Evil. That's backwards. If the first thing you want to be is an assassin and you become an assassin in the normal way, then the first thing you are is Evil. On the other hand, suppose you're Good, but you want to learn the skills of being an assassin without becoming Evil. In this case, what you need is a very interesting backstory and a dungeon master who is willing to support you. I would consider Havelock Vetinari (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Vetinari#Early_years) from the Discworld series to be one possible model for you. In my personal opinion, it's not safe to be a non-Evil assassin, still less a Good assassin, unless you know exactly what you are doing.

[CopperElfCleric]

Every DM or GM I've ever played with or under, has allowed Assassins of goodly races as long as they fit a specific racial hate or dislike. This in itself can be considered a bad thing, but good elves kill bad elves for good reasons. This is what all elves say to themselves. Hence.... The Crown Wars... -20,000 DR.

If anyone here who knows the Crown Wars on Faerun, will understand that no amount of evil Vyshantii elves against Earlann elves or Sharrvann elves can claim having no assassins is ludicrous.

Again, this is just my opinion.... But.... Good elves can be sent on missions of assassination without being called assassins. Fact. So that PrC needs to be revised.

[CopperElfCleric]

And true strike has expired - it has a 1 round duration.
Also at 15th level the chances are you will have better items bonuses that either cat's grace or fox's cunning.

That said, CopperElfCleric's general tactics are probably bang on (circumstances may cause variation).

Those mundane spells are a contingent on the initial attack. Even if you are maxed out otherwise, these are back ups while the spells last. That True strike could be your best friend when the melee round is over, but you can still Attack of Opportunity anyone in a 10 foot radius before the round is over.

[CopperElfCleric]

If we are ignoring alignment prerequisites, how about ignoring a racial prerequisite? We will say an elven variant of the Chameleon is an 'Elven Polymath'. So Rogue 5, Elven Polymath (Chameleon) 10. Lots of different abilities, including arcane and divine spellcasting. It should be able to do the things that you ask for in the OP.

Alignment should play no part in being an Assassin. By definition... an Assassin is a person who kills for money or a greater good, based on religion, creed or ethos.

If you serve a deity, then you serve a purpose. Good deities have warriors and mages, and divine heroes that thrive on subterfuge, spying and assassination. It's fact.

Do you think a Bladesinger of Correllon Larethian wouldn't be sent as an executioner of a tribe of Ogre-Magi? He or she would do so with abandon and conviction.

What if a Rogue of Erevan Ilesere... the elven god of thieves, asked a follower to sneak past the guards and slay a particular Goblin Lord? That would be an Assassin.

In 3.5ed I can imagine that any PC or NPC, be they good or evil will find a common reason why they should kill the other.

The urge to kill the opponent in a subtle way is not evil. I guess it depends on your GM.

[mattie_p]

There's probably a dozen or more prestige classes that are "assassins" in fact if not in name. Please see the current Iron Chef for a good example of what is essentially the assassin PrC but with a different name. There are several others.

[Buufreak]

snip

Except you are still missing the entire point here. If you want to argue flavor or houseruling stuff, that's fine, there is an entire forum for that. Unfortunately, we tend to talk RAW here, and by RAW, assassins are evil and they commit evil acts. You are also still glancing completely over the point that the requirement exists about killing someone for the exclusive purpose of joining the group. Hard stop. No subjectiveness, no ulterior motives, no means to an end. You want in? You kill specifically to get in. And that in and of itself is, by RAW, an evil act.

[AvatarVecna]

If you wanna play an elf "assassin" that isn't an evil prick without houserules, you could just play a rogue 15. Or basically any rogue PrC that focuses more on the murder.

[CopperElfCleric]

Except you are still missing the entire point here. If you want to argue flavor or houseruling stuff, that's fine, there is an entire forum for that. Unfortunately, we tend to talk RAW here, and by RAW, assassins are evil and they commit evil acts. You are also still glancing completely over the point that the requirement exists about killing someone for the exclusive purpose of joining the group. Hard stop. No subjectiveness, no ulterior motives, no means to an end. You want in? You kill specifically to get in. And that in and of itself is, by RAW, an evil act.

And somehow you think elves are remiss of this? There are elves both in the service of Erevan Ilesere and otherwise devoted to murder and killing for pay or joy, among the seldarine?

You play a much different game than we do. But that's cool too. The Seldarine have their Assassins... Even by game standards... mostly of Erevan Ilesere, but even within the boundaries of all the elven deities.

[CopperElfCleric]

There is a PrC called "Justice of Weald and Woe" Strictly for elves who worship Correllon and the Seldarine. Any class you base that on will crush most classes. You can be Rogue 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Justice of Weald and Woe 10. A CR 12 PC or NPC and demolish most things if played right within a level 10 encounter.

[hamishspence]

And somehow you think elves are remiss of this? There are elves both in the service of Erevan Ilesere and otherwise devoted to murder and killing for pay or joy, among the seldarine?


The point is that if a character is "devoted to murder and killing for pay or joy" then they're evil, full stop. Being "in the service of Evevan Ilesere" is not a mitigating factor that will change the character's alignment to Neutral.

There is a reason why any setting's "God of Murder" is normally Evil - Bhaal, Nerull, and so forth.

[Particle_Man]

There is a difference between “assassin” as a concept, which I and others have said can be duplicated by other means, from other prestige classes (including the April fool’s Avenger prestige class) to rogue 15 with the appropriate wands and a maxed out UMD, and “assassin” the specific prestige class in the DMG. The latter requires one to be evil, and also requires one to kill someone for no other reason than to join those particular assassins. Can this be house ruled? Of course. But the OP does not have to ask anyone but their own DM about house rules. And it seems odd for the OP to ask us a question that the OP has already answered for themselves if the OP is the DM in question.

[CopperElfCleric]

The point is that if a character is "devoted to murder and killing for pay or joy" then they're evil, full stop. Being "in the service of Evevan Ilesere" is not a mitigating factor that will change the character's alignment to Neutral.

There is a reason why any setting's "God of Murder" is normally Evil - Bhaal, Nerull, and so forth.

I totally hear you, but being evil and submitting to the Assassin PrC requirements are not solely taken by evil people. No matter what their race.

CN is not too far away from evil or goodness. CN is basically saying you're all about yourself and you hope you end up on top. You serve yourself ultimately. That is an Assassins platform. lol

[hamishspence]

In a D&D context, to "submit to the assassin PRC requirements" is to be "an evil person".

Changing from CE to CN after taking the first level in Assassin IMO requires that such a person repent what they did to take that first level, and put at least some effort into avoiding Evil deeds, and doing Good ones.

By contrast, a Justice of Weald and Woe, as far as I know, has no "roleplaying requirement" preceding the taking of levels. They could be completely innocent of any wrongdoing.


you're all about yourself and you hope you end up on top. You serve yourself ultimately.

That's less CN and more NE.

[Maat Mons]

"Mercy? You wanted Mercy? I'm chaotic neutral!"

And "look out for number one" is consistent with several alignments.

[redking]

There is a PrC called "Justice of Weald and Woe" Strictly for elves who worship Correllon and the Seldarine. Any class you base that on will crush most classes. You can be Rogue 1/ Sorcerer 1/ Justice of Weald and Woe 10. A CR 12 PC or NPC and demolish most things if played right within a level 10 encounter.

Justice of Weald and Woe has prerequisites, including BAB prerequisite of +6. The other prerequisites indicate that this PrC is designed for the Ranger base class. So it would be Ranger 6 Justice of Weald and Woe 10. I don't really find the class to be very powerful.

[hamishspence]

And "look out for number one" is consistent with several alignments.

But it's only the defining trait of one - NE.

CN, LN, and TN might exhibit some degree of selfishness - but not to nearly such a strong degree.

[Buufreak]

I totally hear you, but being evil and submitting to the Assassin PrC requirements are not solely taken by evil people.

Apparently you aren't. What is being said to you is "to be an assassin, you must 100% be evil." To which you have thusly replied "i hear that, I understand that, I agree with that, but you don't have to be evil." Do you see the issue here? The confusion?

And also, as a general note, constantly referring back to FR source material that is from ump-teen years ago isn't making any sort of strong argument in your favor.

[InvisibleBison]

I totally hear you, but being evil [...] are not solely taken by evil people.

Am I missing something, or are you saying that being evil doesn't mean you're evil?

[Bonzai]

While not quite what was asked for, but I had made a blind elven assassin a while back.

Ranger 2/Binder 1/Rogue 2/Assassin 5/Arcane Archer 10

He bypasses some of the challenge as he uses Malphas for its remote viewing raven to spot his target, and then phases a death arrow through the walls and kills his target.

As for moral qualms? He would feel completely justified and righteous if it was a human, as he was a member of the Eldreth Veluuthra, with a tragic backstory involving betrayal and torture at the hands of the Red Plumes.

[King of Nowhere]

Do not confuse fluff and crunch.
Assassin is a class that gives some abilities: rogue chassis with some spells and death attack instead of some rogue skills.
Those assassin abilities are usegul to kill people, but no more than many other class abilities.
Then the whole stuff about "devoted to killing for money and fun", "must kill someone to join the organization", that's pure fluff, and as such should not be taken seriously. Is there any reason a good character cannot learn those assassin skills and use them in the fight against evil? Nope.

Alignment restrictions are lime old class/race restrictions: they are bad because they restrict creativity.

[hamishspence]

It might be a "fluff requirement" - but it's still a requirement - to do away with it, is to create a homebrew class.

Several Assassin spells also have the [Evil] tag - which is a Crunch thing, not just a Fluff thing.

A Good character can learn to do Death attacks - but they do so via taking other prestige classes, such as Slayer of Domiel, not this one.

[lylsyly]

CopperElfCleric‚ when you're replying to several people‚ try to compress it all in one post‚ to not flood the thread

And I got a warning for so-called "Self Moderating" for a similiar post. Guess I'm just in the right crowd :-(

[King of Nowhere]

It might be a "fluff requirement" - but it's still a requirement

90% of groups don't care for that stuff.
is this a thread about rule technicalities? don't think so. this is a thread about stuff you can do with an elven assassin. the assumption is therefore that normal table conditions apply.
if we wanted strict raw, we'd be trying to abuse the assassin chassis to get some infinite combo.

wait, the thread was not about alignments either. we should just drop that line of discussion

[hamishspence]

wait, the thread was not about alignments either. we should just drop that line of discussion

The 4th question the OP gave in their very first post:




4. Figuring out if you're good or evil even though you kill for a living.

[Particle_Man]

And the answer for that particular prestige class is:

RAW: You are evil.

RAI: You are evil.

House Rules at Your Table: Why are you asking us? We are not at your table.

[MinimanMidget]

Strong for a thin race and yet hardy as a human.

Fun fact, the vast majority of elven subraces are objectively less hardy than humans (-2 Con), and only wood elves are "strong for a thin race".

[AvatarVecna]

Fun fact, the vast majority of elven subraces are objectively less hardy than humans (-2 Con), and only wood elves are "strong for a thin race".

Just one more way this thread is about the idea of an elf assassin, rather than the mechanical reality. :smalltongue:

[Particle_Man]

They are also not that tall, compared to humans.

[KillianHawkeye]

Selfishness is human nature. Everyone is selfish sometimes.

A neutral person may not always care if others are suffering as long as they themselves are prospering, but it takes an evil person to directly cause the suffering of others to increase their own well-being.

[CopperElfCleric]

In regard to number one, I agree with other commenters that you can easily infiltrate a stronghold using stealth and invisibility.

In regard to numbers two and three, I would recommend deception. Win the trust of the person you're going to kill; then take them completely by surprise. Use magic items, and don't be shy about hiring accomplices who can use magic, especially when you try to kill someone who can use magic better than you. Avoid a "fair fight" at all costs. In particular, don't allow a spellcaster to prepare for an encounter with you.

In regard to number four, I am more lenient than other commenters. So the rules require an assassin to be Evil – okay, so they do. What does your dungeon master think about this? Your character is a PC, and PCs are more likely to be exceptional than NPCs. If you're a non-Evil assassin, you will surely be exceptional, but it's up to your dungeon master to decide how exceptional you're allowed to be.

I don't believe it's possible for you first to become an assassin and then to decide whether you're Good or Evil. That's backwards. If the first thing you want to be is an assassin and you become an assassin in the normal way, then the first thing you are is Evil. On the other hand, suppose you're Good, but you want to learn the skills of being an assassin without becoming Evil. In this case, what you need is a very interesting backstory and a dungeon master who is willing to support you. I would consider Havelock Vetinari (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Vetinari#Early_years) from the Discworld series to be one possible model for you. In my personal opinion, it's not safe to be a non-Evil assassin, still less a Good assassin, unless you know exactly what you are doing.

I think you misunderstand. Assassin is a PrC meant for evil PC's and NPC's. But.... But.... What of the good people whom kill for the betterment of society? You can be a Rogue 5/ Sorcerer 5/ Mage KJiller 10 PC and be on the verge of epic, yet fail at the art of subterfuge and deception. 20 level PC so to say....You are good. Maybe CG, or maybe CN.

You Cannot stand evil people. You completely hate evil people. So in your Rogueness, your Assassin tendencies. Your killer attitude of what you think is good to you. becomes the path of the Assassin. I've never had a DM that didn't allow good assassins. Though evil in their own ways.

[CopperElfCleric]

I think you misunderstand. Assassin is a PrC meant for evil PC's and NPC's. But.... But.... What of the good people whom kill for the betterment of society? You can be a Rogue 5/ Sorcerer 5/ Mage KJiller 10 PC and be on the verge of epic, yet fail at the art of subterfuge and deception. 20 level PC so to say....You are good. Maybe CG, or maybe CN.

You Cannot stand evil people. You completely hate evil people. So in your Rogueness, your Assassin tendencies. Your killer attitude of what you think is good to you. becomes the path of the Assassin. I've never had a DM that didn't allow good assassins. Though evil in their own ways.


Evil Assassin: Kill for coin or fame.

Goodly Assassin: Kill for retribution or creed.


To say that goodly folk do not employ or produce assassins is ludicrous. The Eldreth Veluthra is one shining example of elven assassins that are very racist towards humans.

[DarkSoul]

Evil Assassin: Kill for coin or fame.

Goodly Assassin: Kill for retribution or creed.


To say that goodly folk do not employ or produce assassins is ludicrous. The Eldreth Veluthra is one shining example of elven assassins that are very racist towards humans.There's only one Bladelord in the Eldreth Veluuthra who's not evil. She's chaotic neutral. Also, the only Bladelord who has assassin levels IS evil. Furthermore, the Eldreth Veluuthra may be elves, but they are definitely not "goodly folk". They are racist, bigoted elves who profess to worship the Seldarine, but none of them receive spells no matter how hard they pray. They're just too fanatical to realize their actions don't have the blessing of Corellon and the rest.

There are a number of classes that can act like assassins. However, the actual Assassin prestige class has the specific requirement of committing an evil act to become one. If you want to refer to yourself as an assassin, even if you don't have any levels in the class, feel free. If you want actual assassin levels, though, you're evil aligned and have killed someone just to become one. If you don't like that, be a Justice of Weald and Woe. They get death attack, too, which is arguably the defining feature of the Assassin.

[redking]

The Holy Slayer, an Al-Qadim setting PrC from Dragon Magazine #321, is an assassin with a lawful alignment requirement only.

[CopperElfCleric]

The point is that if a character is "devoted to murder and killing for pay or joy" then they're evil, full stop. Being "in the service of Evevan Ilesere" is not a mitigating factor that will change the character's alignment to Neutral.

There is a reason why any setting's "God of Murder" is normally Evil - Bhaal, Nerull, and so forth.

Mmmmm.... Again, you misunderstand. Good folks kill bad folks in very bad ways. Horrendous ways, terrifying ways of torture and death to exact the end result of their creed or faith. These are assassins, Small A;a, Goodly folk have Assassins too, if but under a different sect of issues.

Again, evil kills for coin or fame, whereas good kills for creed or faith. Therefore the Assassin PrC should be open to all classes.

[JNAProductions]

Mmmmm.... Again, you misunderstand. Good folks kill bad folks in very bad ways. Horrendous ways, terrifying ways of torture and death to exact the end result of their creed or faith. These are assassins, Small A;a, Goodly folk have Assassins too, if but under a different sect of issues.

Again, evil kills for coin or fame, whereas good kills for creed or faith. Therefore the Assassin PrC should be open to all classes.

By 3.5 rules, to be an Assassin (the prestige class) you must be Evil.

You can houserule that to not be the case, but as a default, you must be Evil.

Do you houserule that change in?

[CopperElfCleric]

There's only one Bladelord in the Eldreth Veluuthra who's not evil. She's chaotic neutral. Also, the only Bladelord who has assassin levels IS evil. Furthermore, the Eldreth Veluuthra may be elves, but they are definitely not "goodly folk". They are racist, bigoted elves who profess to worship the Seldarine, but none of them receive spells no matter how hard they pray. They're just too fanatical to realize their actions don't have the blessing of Corellon and the rest.

There are a number of classes that can act like assassins. However, the actual Assassin prestige class has the specific requirement of committing an evil act to become one. If you want to refer to yourself as an assassin, even if you don't have any levels in the class, feel free. If you want actual assassin levels, though, you're evil aligned and have killed someone just to become one. If you don't like that, be a Justice of Weald and Woe. They get death attack, too, which is arguably the defining feature of the Assassin.

Not true... there is that one female barbarian wild elf member who serves a goodly god and is a spy in the cell. She is all about druid spells and wild frenzy. I forget her name, but she is listed in the FrCs under Eldrath Veluthra.

[CopperElfCleric]

By 3.5 rules, to be an Assassin (the prestige class) you must be Evil.

You can houserule that to not be the case, but as a default, you must be Evil.

Do you houserule that change in?

Most definitely yes. If you kill for a cause, be it selfish or pious, you are an assassin.

[CopperElfCleric]

There's only one Bladelord in the Eldreth Veluuthra who's not evil. She's chaotic neutral. Also, the only Bladelord who has assassin levels IS evil. Furthermore, the Eldreth Veluuthra may be elves, but they are definitely not "goodly folk". They are racist, bigoted elves who profess to worship the Seldarine, but none of them receive spells no matter how hard they pray. They're just too fanatical to realize their actions don't have the blessing of Corellon and the rest.

There are a number of classes that can act like assassins. However, the actual Assassin prestige class has the specific requirement of committing an evil act to become one. If you want to refer to yourself as an assassin, even if you don't have any levels in the class, feel free. If you want actual assassin levels, though, you're evil aligned and have killed someone just to become one. If you don't like that, be a Justice of Weald and Woe. They get death attack, too, which is arguably the defining feature of the Assassin.

You are ultimately wrong when you say that no elves from the Eldrath Veluthra can cast divine spells. Again, I go back to that Wild Elf Barbarian/ Druid that calls to Solonor Thelandira, or Rillifane Rallathil. She is like CR 13 or 14. Fairly powerful for a group of PC's of 10'th level. And.... as a NPC she can be evil or good depending on the motives of the gaming group.

[DarkSoul]

You are ultimately wrong when you say that no elves from the Eldrath Veluthra can cast divine spells. Again, I go back to that Wild Elf Barbarian/ Druid that calls to Solonor Thelandira, or Rillifane Rallathil. She is like CR 13 or 14. Fairly powerful for a group of PC's of 10'th level. And.... as a NPC she can be evil or good depending on the motives of the gaming group.There is no Barbarian/Druid Bladelord, in either Lords of Darkness or Champions of Ruin. Do you have a reference?

Also, yes, some divine magic does exist in their ranks. I forgot it was only clerics that aren't present.

[CopperElfCleric]

The point is that if a character is "devoted to murder and killing for pay or joy" then they're evil, full stop. Being "in the service of Evevan Ilesere" is not a mitigating factor that will change the character's alignment to Neutral.

There is a reason why any setting's "God of Murder" is normally Evil - Bhaal, Nerull, and so forth.

In game standards.... Assassin should be open to any that make a pledge to a certain vow of an evil deed. On earth, the {scrubbed} were goodly, yet held an evil undertone for all opposed to it. You could be good and be deemed evil. You could be evil and condemn them who don;t deserve it.

[CopperElfCleric]

BTW.... yes there is a Barbarian/ Cleric of a elven nature god in there. Read the story and there are stats to boot.

[redking]

BTW.... yes there is a Barbarian/ Cleric of a elven nature god in there. Read the story and there are stats to boot.

Name of book and page number.

[Melcar]

So, as we have it... Elves are nimble, quick and tall. Strong for a thin race and yet hardy as a human. With awesome, yet limited spells at 10'th level Assassin, maybe a few levels as rogue and nothing else. What is the best way to do these four things? You are a Moon Elf Rogue 5/ Assassin 10. Explain yourself?

1. Infiltrate a stronghold

2. Defeat a equally powerful NPC in melee battle

3. Fighting a arcane caster or divine caster of equal HD

4. Figuring out if you're good or evil even though you kill for a living.

1) Invisibility

2/3) Garrote attack them in their sleep!

4) Be Dexter Morgan!

[AvatarVecna]

You cannot be a Good-aligned Assassin, definitionally. However, you can be a Good-aligned Avenger (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a).

[Remuko]

Most definitely yes. If you kill for a cause, be it selfish or pious, you are an assassin.

youre confusing being an assassin with being a member of the D&D 3.5 Assassin Class. These are not the same. Anyone of any class can be an assassin, for the reasons you mention, but to be of the Assassin Class, there are different more strict requirements, at least by the rules, regardless of if you agree with that or not.

[KillianHawkeye]

Mmmmm.... Again, you misunderstand. Good folks kill bad folks in very bad ways. Horrendous ways, terrifying ways of torture and death to exact the end result of their creed or faith.

No, you misunderstand. They don't. They really don't. According to the D&D alignment system, anyone who does these things is not "good folks", they're Evil with a capital E.

Other alignments can kill in a life or death struggle, fight in a war, slay a dangerous monster, or kill to save themselves or someone else. But murdering and torturing in "horrendous" and "terrifying" ways, like an Assassin does, are big time evil actions. People who do that, by definition, are not Good or even Neutral.

[CopperElfCleric]

No, you misunderstand. They don't. They really don't. According to the D&D alignment system, anyone who does these things is not "good folks", they're Evil with a capital E.

Other alignments can kill in a life or death struggle, fight in a war, slay a dangerous monster, or kill to save themselves or someone else. But murdering and torturing in "horrendous" and "terrifying" ways, like an Assassin does, are big time evil actions. People who do that, by definition, are not Good or even Neutral.

I totally get what you are saying, but if my CN elf needed life or death information, I would absolutely have him torture whomever he needed to in order to gain said info. That doesn't make him evil in my book.

[JNAProductions]

I totally get what you are saying, but if my CN elf needed life or death information, I would absolutely have him torture whomever he needed to in order to gain said info. That doesn't make him evil in my book.

Torture doesn’t work. Even ignoring the morality (it’s evil) it doesn’t work.

[InvisibleBison]

I totally get what you are saying, but if my CN elf needed life or death information, I would absolutely have him torture whomever he needed to in order to gain said info. That doesn't make him evil in my book.

In general, a single action doesn't determine one's alignment. It's perfectly possible for a person to both be neutral and be willing to perform, or even actually perform, the occasional evil act.

[CopperElfCleric]

I guess I agree 100% Thank you.

[hamishspence]

Torture doesn’t work. Even ignoring the morality (it’s evil) it doesn’t work.

The usual approach in fiction is to have the villain's loved ones tortured in front of the villain to coerce them to talk. Tends to be portrayed as more reliable than torturing the villain themselves.


In general, a single action doesn't determine one's alignment. It's perfectly possible for a person to both be neutral and be willing to perform, or even actually perform, the occasional evil act.

Depends on the act, and the victim. Doing an exceptionally evil act to an exceptionally innocent victim seems very much: "neutral characters will change to Evil if they unrepentantly do this".

[Wintermoot]

I totally get what you are saying, but if my CN elf needed life or death information, I would absolutely have him torture whomever he needed to in order to gain said info. That doesn't make him evil in my book.

Then your book needs to be updated.

[Jervis]

Then your book needs to be updated.

TBF the guy that wrote the alignment system says that killing Orc babies is LG. Granted that was 2E.

[hamishspence]

He might have said so online - but I don't know that he specifically said so in the rulebooks themselves- not even in 1e, never mind 2e.

[redking]

I just had a epiphany about orc babies. Maybe there is a paladin raised community of orcs out there, comprising of all the orc babies (many of them now grown up). The orc babies are subject to thorough moral indoctrination by the paladins.

[Drelua]

Yes, you can houserule assassins to not have to be evil, and you don't have to be evil to assassinate someone, but the first post didn't say anything about houserules. These forums assume RAW unless specified otherwise, because we can't just know what houserules you have. If you say you take assassin levels, anyone reading that is going to assume you met the requirements for taking assassin levels unless you specify otherwise.

So, if we're assuming you houseruled the alignment requirement away, and the murder requirement, (which I would likely do myself) then you can be a good assassin. But if you're torturing people to death as someone else mentioned, I don't think you can be good. Killing only when necessary, without unnecessary suffering and cruelty is, to me, a requirement for a good character of any class. But alignment is a famously difficult subject to discuss, so I think most people on these boards are with me in not wanting to get too involved in an argument about that. Personally, I would say you cannot kill for money and be a good person, at least not without trying a more peaceful solution than stabbing everyone while they're sleeping.

It comes down to who you're killing, why you're killing them, and how you're killing them. Assassinating a necromancer that's about to create an undead army is probably good, assassinating someone that didn't do anything wrong because money is evil. Torturing the evil necromancer to death is not good, probably evil. And then there's a whole lot of grey area in between that will get ruled differently from one table to another and may not have a clear RAW answer. You have to take it case by case sometimes, it can be a complicated question.