Enchanting: Quiver of Wonder

[aglondier]

Our halfelf druid is a little light on combat effectiveness, so the gnomish wizard, elven sorceror and dwarvish magus in the party have decided to whip up something to help him out.

Rary's Quiver of Wonder.

This high quality quiver provides its owner with an endless supply of normal arrows. Additionally, up to ten times a day, a special arrow may be drawn and fired...unfortunately, since the primary enchantments were laid down by the gnomish wizard Rarytham, who has an inordinate fondness for his Rod of Wonder, there is no way to determine the effects of the arrow until it strikes the target.

Roll d10.
1 Bungle - target suffers -20 to next attack roll or skill check
2 Cause fear - up to 5HD target flees for 1d4 rounds
3 Colour Spray - knocks unconscious, blinds and/or stuns target
4 Distract - subject becomes flat-footed
5 Grease - makes 10' square slippery
6 Summon minor monster - summons d3 tiny creatures inside targets clothes (weasels? rats?)
7 Thunderstomp - target is tripped
8 Touch of blindness - target blinded
9 True Strike - +20 to hit
10 Web bolt - target entangled as web spell


Using Craft Wondrous Item, the base enchantment on the Quiver is the spell Abundant Ammunition. 2000gp x spell level 1 x caster level 1 = 2000gp base cost.

The arrows are treated as single use per day casting of a spell. 2000gp x spell level 1 x caster level 1 ÷ 5 x 1 use per day = 400gp base cost for each of the 10 spell effects. So 4000gp.

All up, base cost for the item is 6000gp, which is halved to calculate the cost of crafting the item. 3000gp.

I would be very interested in other peoples thoughts on this item.

[Beni-Kujaku]

I think Rary of Ket (the true Rary, the one from Rary's Telepathic Bond and Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer) would turn in his grave (he's not dead yet, but would probably find a random grave just to turn in it) hearing about this quiver. His magic is very mind-oriented and he liked to plan everything ahead, so a random-based item focused on bow and arrow to deal damage would disgust him. I suggest changing the name to Rarytham's Quiver of Wonder, or just play on this and have Rary of Ket come after your party for misusing his name.

Apart from that, the item seems fine. Being able to use low-duration like True Strike without using a standard action, or Touch of Blindness without having to touch your opponent would normally warrant a pretty drastic increase in the cost, but the randomness of it should make up for it. Maybe make it so that you can't draw the same arrow twice in a day, to make it a bit more interesting for the player to know about the last few arrows, and make one of them detrimental to both balance out this added knowledge and make it closer to a rod of wonder ("the arrow stays in your hand, and you shoot your bow instead. It deals a bigger die of damage (1d10 for a long bow, 1d8 for a short bow) but you have to go get it back manually to continue shooting", for example).

[Jack_Simth]

Our halfelf druid is a little light on combat effectiveness, so the gnomish wizard, elven sorceror and dwarvish magus in the party have decided to whip up something to help him out.

Rary's Quiver of Wonder.

This high quality quiver provides its owner with an endless supply of normal arrows. Additionally, up to ten times a day, a special arrow may be drawn and fired...unfortunately, since the primary enchantments were laid down by the gnomish wizard Rarytham, who has an inordinate fondness for his Rod of Wonder, there is no way to determine the effects of the arrow until it strikes the target.

Roll d10.
1 Bungle - target suffers -20 to next attack roll or skill check
2 Cause fear - up to 5HD target flees for 1d4 rounds
3 Colour Spray - knocks unconscious, blinds and/or stuns target
4 Distract - subject becomes flat-footed
5 Grease - makes 10' square slippery
6 Summon minor monster - summons d3 tiny creatures inside targets clothes (weasels? rats?)
7 Thunderstomp - target is tripped
8 Touch of blindness - target blinded
9 True Strike - +20 to hit
10 Web bolt - target entangled as web spell


Using Craft Wondrous Item, the base enchantment on the Quiver is the spell Abundant Ammunition. 2000gp x spell level 1 x caster level 1 = 2000gp base cost.

The arrows are treated as single use per day casting of a spell. 2000gp x spell level 1 x caster level 1 ÷ 5 x 1 use per day = 400gp base cost for each of the 10 spell effects. So 4000gp.

All up, base cost for the item is 6000gp, which is halved to calculate the cost of crafting the item. 3000gp.

I would be very interested in other peoples thoughts on this item.

Some notes....
You'll likely want to put durations & DC's in there for convenience.
Summon Minor Monster: Needs mechanical effects to go with it. Do they bite the target for a few rounds or something? Can they be separately killed to end the effect early?
You priced them out as 1/day effects, but are rolling a d10 on a pool. Are repeats possible in a given day?

[aglondier]

I think Rary of Ket (the true Rary, the one from Rary's Telepathic Bond and Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer) would turn in his grave (he's not dead yet, but would probably find a random grave just to turn in it) hearing about this quiver. His magic is very mind-oriented and he liked to plan everything ahead, so a random-based item focused on bow and arrow to deal damage would disgust him. I suggest changing the name to Rarytham's Quiver of Wonder, or just play on this and have Rary of Ket come after your party for misusing his name.
Since it is Pathfinder and we are in Golarion not Oerth, we'll take our chances. 😁


Some notes....
You'll likely want to put durations & DC's in there for convenience.
Summon Minor Monster: Needs mechanical effects to go with it. Do they bite the target for a few rounds or something? Can they be separately killed to end the effect early?
You priced them out as 1/day effects, but are rolling a d10 on a pool. Are repeats possible in a given day?
All the spell effects are set at a 1st level caster, so 1 round duration. Effectively we are paying for 10 "charges" per day that can potentially be any of the effects, even the same one repeatedly if he rolls it.

[Fizban]

Does the Druid player like excessively lol random items? 'Cause if they don't this "help" is probably not a good idea at all.


Since PF apparently has a spell for refilling ammunition, that spell lasts 1 min/level, and they haven't changed the continuous price multiplier, that effect has a formula worth of 3,000gp.

You. . . haven't supplied any formula, estimation, or market price for any of the rest of the item? The Abundant Ammunition spell doesn't have anything to do with wacky random effects, it just refills normal ammunition. The item is clearly "every attack" and has nothing to do with daily calculations. Edit: Normally when people make "quiver" items they're meant to be on every arrow, but apparently not this time.

Presuming the array of effects are meant to be 1st-2nd level, the question is how to price an item that does a bunch of random stuff. It's clearly worse than even multiple similar (but exclusive) functions (multi-spell staff calculations), but an array of effects is presumably meant to be worth more than a single one. If we add up say four functions of the same level that's 2.75 the original price, which is close enough to 3 that I'm willing to round up, and then cut it in half because random for 1.5. So 1.5x the price of an at-will 1st-2nd level effect. Be nice and say the price of a range from 1st-2nd is just the average between 1st-2nd. This will apply last.

Unfortunately, this is where you run into the fact that I actually pay attention to the difference between continuous, at-will, and the unmarked upgrade to "every attack." Continuous uses the normal continuous multipliers. Effects that are not continual buffs on a single person but are actually spammable instant or short duration effects are rare, and when they exist, usually have at least a 4x multiplier just like the one given for turning a round/level spell into continuous. And things that can be multiplied by the character's number of attacks and extended to whatever range their weapon uses are easily worth twice as much.

So that's 2*3*2,000= 12,000. 1*1*2,000= 2,000. (12,000+2,000)/2= 7,000. 7,000*4*2= 54,000. 54,000*1.5= 81,000.

Clearly that's too high, but there's not much to be done about it. If you want something that applies on every hit, anything above the minimum should be extremely expensive for what should be obvious reasons. Even treating the random array as a 50% discount instead of a 50% increase, still leaves you with 27,000.

Reduce the table to only 1st level equivalent effects, and price will of course drop dramatically to 16,000, though at that point I would be highly skeptical of considering the random table as a discount, and it's still in competition with a basic +3 equivalent weapon.

And lets evaluate those entries-

-20 on next roll ought to have a save negates, and is still definitely not a 1st level effect.
Cause Fear is an effect which is made useless as enemy HD increases.
Color Spray is marginally better, but might as well just read as "stuns for 1 round".
Distract is presumably based on a 1st level spell which does this effect, which in 3.5 at least is usually rated a 2nd level effect.
Grease is an area applied to a direct attack.
Summon Minor Monster- I suppose this is meant to be SM1 from a "lower" level list, but tiny is only 1 size smaller than PF SM1 creatures, and 3.5 SM1 has several Tiny creatures on it. Furthermore, what is this even supposed to do? Tiny creatures can technically block movement of Medium and smaller creatures, but they can't flank that I'm aware of (also what square do they appear in?), and won't hit anything worth noting. This is classic lol-random, a bunch of extra rolling and tracking for something that exists because it's funny rather than to actually do anything.
Target is tripped- again, often made a 1st level spell in splats and likely in PF, but needs to define what rolls to resist are used and I'm skeptical that it's actually a 1st level effect.
Blinded- yet again, needs duration and saves, and even at 1 round calling it a 1st level effect is YMMV.
+20 to hit- True Strike normally requires an action to set up, making this effectively Quickened Except Not Using A Swift Action True Strike, which is only theoretically "balanced" by being on a completely uncontrolled random result. Which is there's any abilities to adjust those results, as we just has a thread about Wild Mages, will become less random.
Target Web'd- is presumably referencing the PF Web Bolt spell, and the PF Web apparently inflicts the "grappled" condition, which seems to effectively be the same as Entangled but also you can't move at all and can't use one of your hands. PF says this is 1st level, so there it is.

Going through the effects individually leads me to believe they are meant to all be 1st level equivalent. I still have little advice for seriously pricing this near your apparently desired 6,000gp, however. Random 1 round save or suck effects on every attack is still 1 round save or suck effects on every attack. That's not something that should be cheap, as evidenced the moment you give it to a character that actually specializes in ranged attacks. You could put a 1/round limit on it and say that's good enough to remove the x2 for every attack but that still leaves 8,000, and the effects would still be cl 1/DC 11 standard, which if you can't multiply them by attacks will lose significance even faster. You could make have made it an actual daily charge item, but such items really don't want to have lol random effects. And in any case it should still be compared to weapon abilities, which in 3.5 tend to charge quite a bit, because again the assumption is that a weapon-using character has more base combat than a Druid.


Considering that Druids are usually spellcasters and shapeshifters, the question must be asked if giving them a snowflake ranged weapon is even the right move at all. I'll be the first to agree that you don't have to focus spellcasting powar or zomg everything is bears as the actual role of the class, but it remains that the Druid could quite likely solve their lack of punch by using their Druid abilities better. Or if their desired play style doesn't match the Druid class they're using, the class can be modified (as indeed, PF has dozens of "archetypes" for everything) or the build changed so that they can shoot things better if that's what they want to do, so that combined with a normal weapon they reach the desired power level.

[Raven777]

I think the special effect is only 10 charges/day, Fizban. Not every attack.
The only continuous effect would be the endless ammunition supply.

[aglondier]

I think the special effect is only 10 charges/day, Fizban. Not every attack.
The only continuous effect would be the endless ammunition supply.

Yes. Only 10 charges. And each one only activates a single item off the list. The ammo is continuous.

[Fizban]

Fair enough, I managed to miss that by going straight to the calculations looking for what it was supposed to be based on.

That still leaves it at 3,000 for the continuous ammo supply (not 2,000) and 4,000 for the 10 charges of 1st level spells, for 7,000, assuming PF got rid of the price increase for extra abilities (otherwise that'd be 8,500) and attaching the spell effect to an arrow at no stated action isn't worth any increase, and the multiple random spells are valued at no change vs a single spell.

The other points remain: a lol random item is the opposite of what I would expect a player who is consistently under-performing to want, the item is still missing required information and at minimum DCs is unlikely to provide significant results, and they may be better served with fixing their character or improving their use of it.

[aglondier]

Does the Druid player like excessively lol random items? 'Cause if they don't this "help" is probably not a good idea at all.


Since PF apparently has a spell for refilling ammunition, that spell lasts 1 min/level, and they haven't changed the continuous price multiplier, that effect has a formula worth of 3,000gp.
Right, missed that one. Continuous effect multiplier x2 for the Abundant Ammunition spell. So base cost is 2000gp x 1(spell level) x1(caster level) x2(continuous duration multiplier) = 4000gp.
This allows the quiver to have an infinite supply of normal arrows.


You. . . haven't supplied any formula, estimation, or market price for any of the rest of the item? The Abundant Ammunition spell doesn't have anything to do with wacky random effects, it just refills normal ammunition. The item is clearly "every attack" and has nothing to do with daily calculations. Edit: Normally when people make "quiver" items they're meant to be on every arrow, but apparently not this time.
The individual "spell arrows" are individually calculated as: 2000gp x 1(caster level) x 1(spell level) ÷5×1(for a single use per day) = 400gp. With 10 different spell effects, that gives us 10 uses per day, of 10 1st level spell effects.
I could have done the calculation based off the Command Word activation (1800gp) but thought the extra 200gp would help balance out the shenanigans.


Presuming the array of effects are meant to be 1st-2nd level, the question is how to price an item that does a bunch of random stuff. It's clearly worse than even multiple similar (but exclusive) functions (multi-spell staff calculations), but an array of effects is presumably meant to be worth more than a single one. If we add up say four functions of the same level that's 2.75 the original price, which is close enough to 3 that I'm willing to round up, and then cut it in half because random for 1.5. So 1.5x the price of an at-will 1st-2nd level effect. Be nice and say the price of a range from 1st-2nd is just the average between 1st-2nd. This will apply last.
They are all 1st level spells in Pathfinder. I would argue that it falls under the Multiple Similar Effects heading, meaning we calculate the most expensive bit (4000gp), the next most is multiplied by 0.75 (400x0.75=300), and the other nine spell effects are multiplied by 0.5 (400x0.5=200) for a total of 6100gp base cost.
Even if you class the Abundant Ammunition effect as a Different Ability, that would still only mean that the rest of the enchantments are increased by x1.5, bringing us to (4000) + (400+300+200×8=2300)x1.5 = 7450gp base cost.
Or 4000 + 400x10 = 8000gp base cost.


Unfortunately, this is where you run into the fact that I actually pay attention to the difference between continuous, at-will, and the unmarked upgrade to "every attack." Continuous uses the normal continuous multipliers. Effects that are not continual buffs on a single person but are actually spammable instant or short duration effects are rare, and when they exist, usually have at least a 4x multiplier just like the one given for turning a round/level spell into continuous. And things that can be multiplied by the character's number of attacks and extended to whatever range their weapon uses are easily worth twice as much.

So that's 2*3*2,000= 12,000. 1*1*2,000= 2,000. (12,000+2,000)/2= 7,000. 7,000*4*2= 54,000. 54,000*1.5= 81,000.

Clearly that's too high, but there's not much to be done about it. If you want something that applies on every hit, anything above the minimum should be extremely expensive for what should be obvious reasons. Even treating the random array as a 50% discount instead of a 50% increase, still leaves you with 27,000.

Reduce the table to only 1st level equivalent effects, and price will of course drop dramatically to 16,000, though at that point I would be highly skeptical of considering the random table as a discount, and it's still in competition with a basic +3 equivalent weapon.
The 1 use per day multiplier covers that. There are effectively 10 charges per day. Once used up thats it until tomorrow. Each spell effect only applies to the "enhanced arrow" as it is fired.


And lets evaluate those entries-

-20 on next roll ought to have a save negates, and is still definitely not a 1st level effect.
Cause Fear is an effect which is made useless as enemy HD increases.
Color Spray is marginally better, but might as well just read as "stuns for 1 round".
Distract is presumably based on a 1st level spell which does this effect, which in 3.5 at least is usually rated a 2nd level effect.
Grease is an area applied to a direct attack.
Summon Minor Monster- I suppose this is meant to be SM1 from a "lower" level list, but tiny is only 1 size smaller than PF SM1 creatures, and 3.5 SM1 has several Tiny creatures on it. Furthermore, what is this even supposed to do? Tiny creatures can technically block movement of Medium and smaller creatures, but they can't flank that I'm aware of (also what square do they appear in?), and won't hit anything worth noting. This is classic lol-random, a bunch of extra rolling and tracking for something that exists because it's funny rather than to actually do anything.
Target is tripped- again, often made a 1st level spell in splats and likely in PF, but needs to define what rolls to resist are used and I'm skeptical that it's actually a 1st level effect.
Blinded- yet again, needs duration and saves, and even at 1 round calling it a 1st level effect is YMMV.
+20 to hit- True Strike normally requires an action to set up, making this effectively Quickened Except Not Using A Swift Action True Strike, which is only theoretically "balanced" by being on a completely uncontrolled random result. Which is there's any abilities to adjust those results, as we just has a thread about Wild Mages, will become less random.
Target Web'd- is presumably referencing the PF Web Bolt spell, and the PF Web apparently inflicts the "grappled" condition, which seems to effectively be the same as Entangled but also you can't move at all and can't use one of your hands. PF says this is 1st level, so there it is.

They are all legitimate 1st level Sorceror/Wizard or Magus spells from Pathfinder. Check the SRD for yourself.


Going through the effects individually leads me to believe they are meant to all be 1st level equivalent. I still have little advice for seriously pricing this near your apparently desired 6,000gp, however. Random 1 round save or suck effects on every attack is still 1 round save or suck effects on every attack. That's not something that should be cheap, as evidenced the moment you give it to a character that actually specializes in ranged attacks. You could put a 1/round limit on it and say that's good enough to remove the x2 for every attack but that still leaves 8,000, and the effects would still be cl 1/DC 11 standard, which if you can't multiply them by attacks will lose significance even faster. You could make have made it an actual daily charge item, but such items really don't want to have lol random effects. And in any case it should still be compared to weapon abilities, which in 3.5 tend to charge quite a bit, because again the assumption is that a weapon-using character has more base combat than a Druid.
Limiting it to one special arrow per round seems sensible and completely in line with our intent. As caster level 1, yep, DCs will likely be low. We've been playing for years and have only recently reached level 6, so not too worried about obsolescence. I did make it a daily charge item. Random lol effects are very much in character for our party. I'm not one to gatekeep on the issue of whether our druid can be an archer.


Considering that Druids are usually spellcasters and shapeshifters, the question must be asked if giving them a snowflake ranged weapon is even the right move at all. I'll be the first to agree that you don't have to focus spellcasting powar or zomg everything is bears as the actual role of the class, but it remains that the Druid could quite likely solve their lack of punch by using their Druid abilities better. Or if their desired play style doesn't match the Druid class they're using, the class can be modified (as indeed, PF has dozens of "archetypes" for everything) or the build changed so that they can shoot things better if that's what they want to do, so that combined with a normal weapon they reach the desired power level.
The player wants to be a shooty elf druid. The rest of us are doing our best to support him and make the game a bit more fun. Not everyone has to play super-optimised ultrabuilds to enjoy themselves.

[aglondier]

Right, missed that one. Continuous effect multiplier x2 for the Abundant Ammunition spell. So base cost is 2000gp x 1(spell level) x1(caster level) x2(continuous duration multiplier) = 4000gp.
This allows the quiver to have an infinite supply of normal arrows.


The individual "spell arrows" are individually calculated as: 2000gp x 1(caster level) x 1(spell level) ÷5×1(for a single use per day) = 400gp. With 10 different spell effects, that gives us 10 uses per day, of 10 1st level spell effects.
I could have done the calculation based off the Command Word activation (1800gp) but thought the extra 200gp would help balance out the shenanigans.

Hmmm...maybe having the random effect arrows be command word activated would work better.
1800 x 1(cl) x1(sl) ÷5×1(use per day) = 360gp

For a total of 7600gp base cost.

Or 4000 + (360 + 270 + 180x8 = 2070)×1.5 = 7105gp base cost.

Hmmm...requiring Skill as an archer could be argued for a 10% discount...

[aglondier]

Summon Minor Monsters arrow...

1. Skunks - DC11 fort save or be nauseated for 1d4 rounds then sickened for 1d4 rounds, on a successful save they are only sickened for 1d4 rounds.
2. Weasels - bite +4 (1d3-4)
3. Rats - bite +4 (1d3-4 + disease) DC10 fort save lose 1d4 Cha + 1d4 Con, roll daily, 2 saves to recover.
4. Meerkats - bite +4 (1d3-3) 2 or more attacking the same foe gain flanking.
5. Monkeys - pick pockets +8, and throw the items away.
6. Porcupines - automatic 1d3 points of piercing damage.

Underwater defaults to
1. Blue Ring Octopus - bite +7 (1d2-1 + poison) DC10 fort save lose 1 Str, for 6 rounds, 1 save to recover.

Hmmm...maybe only 3 or 4 of them...

[Vaern]

Each effect isn't 1/day. It's the randomized function as a whole that's coming out to 10/day. You could end up, for example, getting true strike 6 times in one day (albeit very unlikely), so pricing each effect as being 1/day may not be appropriate here.
Instead, sum the cost of all of the effects first, then divide by 5 and multiply by 10 (or just don't divide/multiply at all in this case, since they end up becoming more expensive than the base component).
Either that, or specify that each effect can in fact occur only once per day and that the result should be rerolled if the die lands on an effect that has already been expended.

[icefractal]

Given that it's random, it's not going to be stronger in general than having each of them 1/day, and in fact will in most cases be weaker, since you can't select the most useful one for the situation.

So I'd start with "each of them 1/day" as a baseline, but then add a significant discount (the "multiple effects" one looks reasonable, or a flat 25%) to take the randomness into account.

However, more importantly than any formula, look at how it compares to existing items. If we go with the 6K in the OP, then we can compare it to some other archery-related items:
* Upgrading a +1 weapon to +2 (6K)
* Lesser Bracers of Archery (5K)
* Dexterity +2 (4K-6K)

And it looks ... roughly correct. Statistically, you'd probably be better off with the weapon upgrade and certainly would with the Dex boost, but this stacks with those if you already have them and is fun. I'd get it at some point, but it wouldn't be a top priority unless it was a perfect flavor fit for the character, so that seems reasonable.

Honestly it'd probably be fine to have it on every shot. Note that two of the effects (Cause Fear and Color Spray) are sharply HD-limited, so they become dead results eventually.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

RandomLOL item? Looks like a good item to sell to get better barding for my pets, to me.

In other words, mehhhhh. I really don't like random stuff that may or may not help. For another example, some people around here seem to like the lucky dice soulmeld (roll 1d4, gain +1 luck bonus to random stat based on the roll), but I'd vastly prefer to have consistency.

[Wintermoot]

Most of the people I've played with and the games I've played in, this would be a well received item. I think it will provide some amusement and fun for your players.

It really depends on where your players put the emphasis on "play" or "game". A lot of people on this forum would hate this item because of the random factor. But I think it would be liked by most rpgers.

I would get rid of the truestrike and replace with something else more interesting.

[aglondier]

Our party consists of our halfelf druid (ng), a black dragon blooded elf sorceror (cn), a gnome enchanter (cg), a shoanti shaman (ng), a goblin shadow rogue (ng), a changeling paladin of sarenrae (lg), and my dwarf fighter/magus (lg).
"Team Law" consisting of the paladin and dwarf try to keep the group on the straight and narrow. The goblin tends to side with them.
The "Chaos Crew" is more or less led by the sorceror and gnome, and gets up to all sorts of shenanigans when left to their own devices. The druid and shaman are more often than not led astray by peer pressure from the other two.

The gnome was given a rod of wonder as a quest reward, and has unleashed in in every major encounter since to hilarious effect, including the time he killed his own familiar when it fireballed him point blank.
The druid has saved the sorceror's life with well placed arrows on at least three occasions, and four times nearly killed him with poorly timed critical failures. Though one of those also saved his life from the necrophidius that was wrapped around him, by "killing" him it caused the creature to lose interest and move on...

A random lol item will not in any way disrupt the party play style, and will give him a small boost, and the rest of the table something to laugh about...besides him almost killing the sorceror...again...

We are limited by what is in our spellbooks, if our upcoming shopping trip gives us something more lol-worthy, we will definitely trade out the true strike in favour of it...