Best "fixed" 5e Monk

[AndrewBlade]

My son is running a monk in our next campaign, and I can't help but frown when I read how terrible it is. 1d4 martial arts damage, but the unarmed fighting style in tasha's makes it a d8 for a fighter. Spend a precious ki point to gain one more attack than normal twf. Spend another precious ki point to do what a Rogue can for free at level 2. I know later on in levels they get some neat things, but a lot of it seems more fluff than substance.

I imagine there is a better balanced homebrew Monk out there, and I'd love to see it if there is so I could present it as a complete package to my DM rather than having to go through the process of pointing out each individual thing I'd like to fix.

[Saelethil]

My son is running a monk in our next campaign, and I can't help but frown when I read how terrible it is. 1d4 martial arts damage, but the unarmed fighting style in tasha's makes it a d8 for a fighter. Spend a precious ki point to gain one more attack than normal twf. Spend another precious ki point to do what a Rogue can for free at level 2. I know later on in levels they get some neat things, but a lot of it seems more fluff than substance.

I imagine there is a better balanced homebrew Monk out there, and I'd love to see it if there is so I could present it as a complete package to my DM rather than having to go through the process of pointing out each individual thing I'd like to fix.

I think increasing the Martial Arts die by one (so d6-d12 instead of d4-d10) and making Step of the wind free would be the simplest fix.
I know it’s not much but I don’t think Monks are as bad as a lot of people say. Not as good as they should be but with this fix they get free mobility options which makes them the skirmisher people say they’re supposed to be. And they can split their ki between Patient Defense, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Strike, and subclass features.

[AndrewBlade]

I think increasing the Martial Arts die by one (so d6-d12 instead of d4-d10) and making Step of the wind free would be the simplest fix.
I know it’s not much but I don’t think Monks are as bad as a lot of people say. Not as good as they should be but with this fix they get free mobility options which makes them the skirmisher people say they’re supposed to be. And they can split their ki between Patient Defense, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Strike, and subclass features.

What do you think of providing more ki points at lower levels? Or instead of D12 goings 2D6?

[MrStabby]

I think increasing the Martial Arts die by one (so d6-d12 instead of d4-d10) and making Step of the wind free would be the simplest fix.
I know it’s not much but I don’t think Monks are as bad as a lot of people say. Not as good as they should be but with this fix they get free mobility options which makes them the skirmisher people say they’re supposed to be. And they can split their ki between Patient Defense, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Strike, and subclass features.

I think I agree very strongly with this.

I think the power of the monk fluctuates according to the DM. If you face a lot of spellcasters, monks can be awesome. If you face a lot of homogenious encounters with identical bags of meat to be chewed through then monks suck. Before working out how to buff, work out how much you need to. If there are lots of magic weapons and items then the monk is poor; if there are zero magic weapons then the monk is great.

One monk strength is mobility - if you are facing melee enemies in 15ft by 15ft rooms with no feaures of interest and no great positional advantages, then this awesome power is wasted. If you deal with complex battlefields, cover, hiding enemies and enemies that tactically try and keep themselves out of melee range then all of these great, powerful abilities go to waste.

Boosting martial arts die by one is an excellent start (though beware as a lot of newer monk classes key off the MA die quite hard for other abilities). Monks are already powerhouse damage dealers at lower levels; most characters need to wait till level 4 to pick up a feat for a bonus action attack and monks not only get that early, but can get two attacks. Beware of boosting this too much.

I don't think making step of the wind free is quite right - but one free use per short rest puts it in the place where it can be frequently used but not spammed. It makes the monk feel like a monk doing monk things whilst preserving meaningful choice. Boosting Ki could do the same, but in practice this seems to just end up in more stunning strikes and less of a rich breadth of monk abilities.



Other options are:

d10 hit die (this takes the pain off the monk being MAD just a little. Those few extra HP can go a long way)
The ritual caster feat (this plays up a monastic, more scholarly monk feel and helps them out of combat)
The non-stat part of the elven accuracy feat - a nice reward for more tactical play and getting advantage or for using mobility to targe a more vulnerable creature

I wouldn't think of these as needed if the DM uses as many casters as martials as NPCs, as long as magic weapons are in short supply (i.e. if the monks fists counting as magical is not just a ribbon) and as long as the DM has different, differentiated fights in nteresting 3 dimensional environments.

[J-H]

My experience as a DM is that monks are fine, especially if you're not shorting your party on magic items. The only change I've made for the kensei in our party is allowing him to use his melee weapon with both attacks and still get the +2 AC off of it. He's super mobile, has good defenses (Dex + Wis + bracers of defense and one tome), has decent damage in melee, and is a pretty good archer - even better with Sharpshooter now.
He's used Stunning Fist exactly once between levels 7 and 17... so he could be even better, but he's totally keeping up with the party.

Monk speed is also ridiculous; he can out sprint most enemies, and uses this to pull off some ridiculous diversionary attacks (I'll attack the village, you guys go ahead, I'll catch up).

At low levels, remember that monks can attack with monk weapons as well as unarmed strike, so it's 1d8 quarterstaff or 1d6 shortsword + 1d4 martial arts damage, at a point where almost no other characters can attack twice.

[Kane0]

Heres my current version. Mostly minor changes but together makes for quite a different experience.




Level
Prof
Features
Monk Die
Ki


1
+2
Martial Arts, Unarmored Defense
d6
-


2
+2
Ki, Unarmored Movement
d6
2


3
+2
Monastic Tradition, Deflect Missiles
d6
3


4
[+2
ASI, Slow Fall
d6
4


5
+3
Extra Attack, Stunning Strike
d8
5


6
+3
Monastic Tradition Feature, Purity of Body
d8
6


7
+3
Evasion, Ki-Empowered Strikes
d8
7


8
+3
ASI, Quickened Healing
d8
8


9
+4
Focused Aim, Unarmored Movement Improvement
d8
9


10
+4
ASI, Stillness of Mind
d8
10


11
+4
Monastic Tradition Feature
d10
11


12
+4
ASI
d10
12


13
+5
Tongue of Sun and Moon
d10
13


14
+5
Diamond Soul
d10
14


15
+5
Timeless Body
d10
15


16
+5
ASI
d10
16


17
+6
Monastic Tradition Feature
d12
17


18
+6
Empty Body
d12
18


19
+6
ASI
d12
19


20
+6
Perfect Self
d12
20


Hit Dice: d8
Armor Proficiencies: None
Weapon Proficiencies: Simple weapons, shortswords
Saving Throw proficiencies: Strength, Wisdom
Skill Proficiencies: Choose two from Acrobatics, Athletics, Lore, Insight, Perception and Stealth
Other Proficiencies: One instrument or type of artisans tools

Level 1: Martial Arts
While you aren't wielding a shield you gain the following benefits when using unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are any weapons that you are proficient in and don't have the heavy or special property.
- You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and monk weapons
- You can roll a d6 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or monk weapon. This die changes as you gain monk levels do d8 at level 5, d10 at level 11 and d12 at level 17
- You can take a bonus action on each of your turns in combat. This action can be used only to take the Attack (one unarmed strike only), Dash or Disengage action.

Level 2: Ki
You gain a pool or mystic Ki energy represented by a number of points as shown on the Monk table. You can spend these points to fuel various ki features, three of which you know to start with: Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind.
When you spend a ki point, it is unavailable until you finish a short or long rest, at the end of which you draw all of your expended ki back into yourself. You must spend at least 30 minutes of the rest meditating to regain your ki points.

Some of your ki features require your target to make a saving throw to resist the feature's effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as follows:
Ki save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Wisdom modifier


Flurry of Blows: When you take the Attack action using an unarmed strike or a monk weapon, you can spend 1 Ki to make one additional Unarmed Strike as part of the Attack action.

Patient Defense: You can spend 1 ki point to take the Dodge action as a bonus action on your turn.

Step of the Wind: You can spend 1 ki point to triple your jump distance until the end of your next turn

Level 2: Unarmored Movement
Starting at 2nd level, your speed increases by 10 feet while you are not wielding a shield. This bonus increases when you reach certain monk levels, as shown in the Monk table.
At 9th level, you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the move.

Level 3: Monastic Tradition
Choose one Monk Tradition to follow, same as the books.

Level 3: Deflect Missiles
When you are hit by a ranged weapon attack you can use your reaction to deflect or catch the missile, reducing the damage by 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your monk level.
If you reduce the damage to 0, you can catch the missile if you are able to hold it. If you catch a missile in this way, as part of the same reaction you can spend 1 ki point to make a ranged attack using the missile at the same range. You are considered proficient in this attack.

Level 4: Slow Fall
You can use your reaction when you fall to reduce any falling damage you take by an amount equal to five times your monk level.

Level 5: Extra Attack
You can attack twice whenever you take the Attack action on your turn. If you already have the Extra Attack feature you instead increase one attribute of your choice by 1, to a maximum of 20.

Level 5: Stunning Strike
When you hit a creature with a melee attack using an unarmed strike or monk weapon, you can attempt a stunning strike. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of your next turn. You can use this feature a number of times equal to twice your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.

Level 6: Purity of Body
You gain proficiency in your choice of Dexterity or Constitution saving throws.
In addition, you gain resistance to Poison damage and advantage on saving throws against Poison and Disease.

Level 7: Evasion
When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.

Level 7: Ki-Empowered Strikes
Your unarmed strikes count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.
In addition, you can use your action to expend a number of ki points up to your proficiency bonus to grant a bonus to attack and damage rolls to your unarmed strikes equal to half the number of ki points spent. This bonus lasts until you take your next short or long rest, and does not stack with any item or effect that would give your unarmed strikes a bonus to your attack and damage rolls such as an Insignia of Claws.

Level 8: Quickened Healing
Once on your turn when you use your action or bonus action to spend one or more Ki points, you can spend 1 Ki point to regain a number of hit points equal to one roll of your Martial Arts die plus your Wisdom bonus (minimum 1).

Level 9: Focused Aim
Once per turn, when you miss with an attack roll you can spend 1 Ki point to reroll the attack, potentially turning the miss into a hit.

Level 10: Stillness of Mind
You gain proficiency in your choice of Intelligence or Charisma saving throws.
In addition, at the beginning of your turn if you are subject to the Charmed or Frightened condition you can end that condition on yourself. If you choose to do so you cannot use your action on your turn.

Level 13: Tongue of Sun and Moon
You understand all spoken languages, and any creature that can understand a language can understand you.

Level 14: Diamond Soul
You gain proficiency in all saving throws, and when you fail a saving throw you can spend 1 ki point to reroll it and take the second result.

Level 15: Timeless Body
You no longer require food nor water, and you cannot be aged magically nor suffer the ill effects of old age.

Level 18: Empty Body
As a bonus action you can spend 4 ki to become invisible for 1 minute. During that time, you also have resistance to all damage but force damage.
Additionally, you can spend 8 ki points to cast the Astral Projection spell, without needing material components. When you do so, you cannot take any other creatures with you.

Level 20: Perfect Self
At the start of each of your turns you gain 1 temporary Ki point, which lasts until the end of your turn unless you expend it.

[BerzerkerUnit]

My son is running a monk in our next campaign, and I can't help but frown when I read how terrible it is. 1d4 martial arts damage, but the unarmed fighting style in tasha's makes it a d8 for a fighter. Spend a precious ki point to gain one more attack than normal twf. Spend another precious ki point to do what a Rogue can for free at level 2. I know later on in levels they get some neat things, but a lot of it seems more fluff than substance.

I imagine there is a better balanced homebrew Monk out there, and I'd love to see it if there is so I could present it as a complete package to my DM rather than having to go through the process of pointing out each individual thing I'd like to fix.

I can't repost the subclass, but here's a link to the contest (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?639596-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-XXVII-So-You-Don-t-Have-To-II).

First entry is mine and may go a ways toward alleviating your fears if allowed.

If you have any questions or comments pls post them here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?622798-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-Chat-Thread-2-Joke-Entries-Win-with-Alarming-Frequency).

[Chronic]

Monk are actually very strong early, it's later on they tend to fall short. Also as it has been said before, they shine way more in encounter that aren't punching matches while standing still. Their mobility is awesome, and stunning strike is amazing. A few simple quality of life: At higher level, giving them the equivalent of a magical weapon for their fist is fine. Also, if Ki is hard to manage for the player and he fill like he's always short, adding 1 Ki point to his pool every 3 level helps. Another possibility is giving Ki fueled abilities a free use once per long rest. It free up some Ki, while encouraging the player to use every technics in it's arsenal. They will cease to feel guilty not using every Ki point they have to stunning strike every hit on every turn.
You can also allow them to use strenght instead of dex for unarmored defense, allowing them to build a grappler monk.

[AndrewBlade]

I was reading an idea about limiting stunning strike based on proficiency bonus, or some other value that doesn't require the use of ki points. Prevents it from being spammed, and also allows ki to be saved for other uses.

I like the idea of leaving the HD at 8, but I also think I'll talk to the DM about ensuring that encounters aren't static battles. Knowing him the way I do, I think this will be unnecessary, honestly.

I do like the bonus action options used in Kane0's entry as well.

[Kane0]

I was reading an idea about limiting stunning strike based on proficiency bonus, or some other value that doesn't require the use of ki points. Prevents it from being spammed, and also allows ki to be saved for other uses.

I like the idea of leaving the HD at 8, but I also think I'll talk to the DM about ensuring that encounters aren't static battles. Knowing him the way I do, I think this will be unnecessary, honestly.

I do like the bonus action options used in Kane0's entry as well.

Yeah i covered those too

[Segev]

One suggestion I really like is making Flurry of Blows read: "Once on each of your turns when you take the attack action, you may spend 1ki to make an unarmed strike as an additional attack as part of that action."

This gives the same number of attacks as before if you also make your martial arts bonus action attack, but frees up your bonus action for Step of the Wind, Patient Defense, or other options, while still giving you an extra attack.

[Amechra]

As much as it seems heretical to post this in a homebrew thread... I'd suggest playing with the vanilla monk first, if only for a few sessions.

If your son is happy with his character? There's no need to change anything. And if he does end up getting frustrated by the monk, you'll be able to talk to him about why it isn't working for him, which is better than asking a bunch of strangers online.

[Dienekes]

Kinda agree with Amechra here.

Do I think Monk is weak? Yeah. Do I even like the design of the Monk? No.

Do I think that weakness actually shows up in most campaigns? Not really.

So, how optimized is your play group? If they're not all that bad, I wouldn't really touch the Monk. Maybe just let them use Step of the Wind provided they have at least 1 Ki remaining. Or just free. It's not a big deal.

[Saelethil]

What do you think of providing more ki points at lower levels? Or instead of D12 goings 2D6?
More Ki is another decent option. I prefer making SoTW free as that will encourage its use as well as free up some ki. 2d6 instead of 1d12 would be fine as well.



I think the power of the monk fluctuates according to the DM.
{snipped}

Boosting martial arts die by one is an excellent start (though beware as a lot of newer monk classes key off the MA die quite hard for other abilities). Monks are already powerhouse damage dealers at lower levels; most characters need to wait till level 4 to pick up a feat for a bonus action attack and monks not only get that early, but can get two attacks. Beware of boosting this too much.

I don't think making step of the wind free is quite right - but one free use per short rest puts it in the place where it can be frequently used but not spammed. It makes the monk feel like a monk doing monk things whilst preserving meaningful choice. Boosting Ki could do the same, but in practice this seems to just end up in more stunning strikes and less of a rich breadth of monk abilities.


Yeah, a RaW Monk in the right campaign can be really good. Unfortunately the right campaign isn’t super common.

Boosting the MA die could be more than you bargained for with a couple of the new subclasses but I don’t think they get bumped to over powered just really good. That would be something to talk to your players about though, let them know that if it ends up being too much it may need to go back to the original die size.

I like making SoTW free because they still have much more powerful options that they’ll want their bonus action for. They just cost ki. This frees up some ki and gives them more to work with when they’re running low.
I still don’t think it will get a ton more use than it does now between stunning strike, flurry of blows, and patient defense, but it gives a lot more freedom to do “Monk” things.



Other options are:

d10 hit die (this takes the pain off the monk being MAD just a little. Those few extra HP can go a long way)
The ritual caster feat (this plays up a monastic, more scholarly monk feel and helps them out of combat)
The non-stat part of the elven accuracy feat - a nice reward for more tactical play and getting advantage or for using mobility to targe a more vulnerable creature

I wouldn't think of these as needed if the DM uses as many casters as martials as NPCs, as long as magic weapons are in short supply (i.e. if the monks fists counting as magical is not just a ribbon) and as long as the DM has different, differentiated fights in nteresting 3 dimensional environments.

I think the only part of this that I disagree with is the d10 HD. I don’t think it’s bad per se but that would seem to encourage a play style more like a Fighter, Paladin, or (to a lesser degree) Ranger, instead of like a Rogue. IMO Monks should be running in and out of combat throwing stuns on big targets and cleaning up minions so that the heavier hitters can focus fire on a (possibly stunned) bigger threat. I think a d8 HD tells players that they should be avoiding going toe to toe against anything unless there is simply no other option.
But that gets in to class expectations which are going to very from person to person.

[GalacticAxekick]

My son is running a monk in our next campaign, and I can't help but frown when I read how terrible it is. 1d4 martial arts damage, but the unarmed fighting style in tasha's makes it a d8 for a fighter. The Monk deals 1d8+3 (7.5 on average) with a quarterstaff, plus 1d4+3 (5.5 on average) with martial arts. That's 13 damage for free, every round, at 1st level.

Tasha's unarmed-style Fighter deals 1d8+3 (7.5 on average) with an unarmed strike and... that's it.


Spend a precious ki point to gain one more attack than normal twf.A two-weapon Fighter deals 1d6+3 twice (total 13). A two-weapon Barbarian deals 1d6+5 and 1d6+2 (total 14) while raging, or 1d6+3 and 1d6 (total 10) when not raging. So the Monk without ki is as strong as the strongest Fighter and almost as strong as the Barbarian during his strongest minutes of the day.

With ki, the Monk deals an extra 1d4+3 (5.5) damage, pushing it up to 18.5 total. The Monk becomes far stronger than the Barbarian, and while the Monk can only maintain this power level for two rounds of a battle (instead of raging for the whole battle), the Monk regains this power every short rest (while the Barbarian can do this only twice per long rest).

In brief, the Monk hits harder than everyone else at low levels. Don't buff it.


Spend another precious ki point to do what a Rogue can for free at level 2.This actually does suck. I think Step of the Wind should be free.

[AndrewBlade]

The Monk deals 1d8+3 (7.5 on average) with a quarterstaff, plus 1d4+3 (5.5 on average) with martial arts. That's 13 damage for free, every round, at 1st level.

Tasha's unarmed-style Fighter deals 1d8+3 (7.5 on average) with an unarmed strike and... that's it.

A two-weapon Fighter deals 1d6+3 twice (total 13). A two-weapon Barbarian deals 1d6+5 and 1d6+2 (total 14) while raging, or 1d6+3 and 1d6 (total 10) when not raging. So the Monk without ki is as strong as the strongest Fighter and almost as strong as the Barbarian during his strongest minutes of the day.

With ki, the Monk deals an extra 1d4+3 (5.5) damage, pushing it up to 18.5 total. The Monk becomes far stronger than the Barbarian, and while the Monk can only maintain this power level for two rounds of a battle (instead of raging for the whole battle), the Monk regains this power every short rest (while the Barbarian can do this only twice per long rest).

In brief, the Monk hits harder than everyone else at low levels. Don't buff it.

This actually does suck. I think Step of the Wind should be free.

I accept this premise on average, with the quarterstaff. Obviously the other argument on the twf front is a variant human with the dual wielder feat and two weapon fighting style wielding a pair of longswords, but there will always be exceptions to everything.

[Gurgeh]

"A character with a feat is stronger than a character without a feat" should not be surprising. ;)

[Amechra]

I remember sitting down to play my first Monk at 5th level, and despairing that my damage was so low... until someone pointed out to me that 3-4 attacks dealing 1d6+4 damage was pretty solid in 5e.

That campaign did set me up for some future disappointment, though — we had misread short rests as being 10 minutes long, and Step of the Wind as being a Dash and Disengage (instead of either-or). The second misreading really didn't affect much (I was a Drunken Master, so my flurries Disengaged me anyway), but quicker (and, as a result, more frequent) short rests basically let me throw ki around like it was going out of style. If you haven't had a chance to play a Monk or Warlock in a game where you're practically guaranteed a short rest between fights, I highly suggest it.

...

To be entirely fair, I give Monks bonus ki equal to their Wisdom modifier in my houserules (and also allow Monk/Rogue multiclass characters to sneak attack with unarmed strikes), so it's not like I'm against fiddling with stuff... it's just that it's very useful to have some experience with whatever you're fiddling with, so that you can make sure that your changes address your pain points.

[AndrewBlade]

As much as it seems heretical to post this in a homebrew thread... I'd suggest playing with the vanilla monk first, if only for a few sessions.

If your son is happy with his character? There's no need to change anything. And if he does end up getting frustrated by the monk, you'll be able to talk to him about why it isn't working for him, which is better than asking a bunch of strangers online.

He hasn't played it yet, this is just on my own observations. The group itself is almost completely new. He has played in two previous campaigns as a fighter and a barbarian (About three sessions a piece). I don't know anything about the two new players other than that they are experienced and knowledgeable. The DM I play with is very good with the story, but he tends to make encounters challenging. I am just trying to head-off any potential pitfalls to prevent a bad time. He might enjoy it as weak as it is, but playing a character class with more abilities is going to be a challenge for him already. He's still relatively new.


"A character with a feat is stronger than a character without a feat" should not be surprising. ;)

Haha, well I suppose there is that.

[Kane0]

He hasn't played it yet, this is just on my own observations. The group itself is almost completely new. He has played in two previous campaigns as a fighter and a barbarian (About three sessions a piece). I don't know anything about the two new players other than that they are experienced and knowledgeable. The DM I play with is very good with the story, but he tends to make encounters challenging. I am just trying to head-off any potential pitfalls to prevent a bad time. He might enjoy it as weak as it is, but playing a character class with more abilities is going to be a challenge for him already. He's still relatively new.


Probably best to stick to the default then, with maybe Tasha's options thrown in. If that doesn't pan out well then feel free to start tinkering, but it's good to know the baseline experience first.

[AndrewBlade]

To be entirely fair, I give Monks bonus ki equal to their Wisdom modifier in my houserules

This sounds like a good idea to keep in mind as well.

[Amechra]

What kind of "challenging" are we talking here? Like, if you were bringing a Fighter to your DM's games, would you feel OK bringing a "naive" build like a sword-and-board Battle Master, or would you feel like you'd need to bring in something more optimized (like, say, something like this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24726630&postcount=582)) in order to actually keep up?

Because the Monk's default, unoptimized damage handily keeps up with the "naive" Fighter's, at least until Tier 3. If the encounters are challenging due to the required tactics and not the required numbers, a Monk isn't going to be slowing down the rest of the party.

EDIT: Bear in mind that I gave the Monk bonus ki in a context where I:


Banned Artificers, Paladins, and Wizards for setting reasons.
Powered up Barbarians (they deal some damage while shoving and grappling), Rangers (they got Find Familiar and Find Steed), Sorcerers (they got bonus spells known equal to their Constitution modifier from any list), and Warlocks (Int-based and they automatically know all of their Patron spells).


Make of that what you will.

[AndrewBlade]

What kind of "challenging" are we talking here? Like, if you were bringing a Fighter to your DM's games, would you feel OK bringing a "naive" build like a sword-and-board Battle Master, or would you feel like you'd need to bring in something more optimized (like, say, something like this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24726630&postcount=582)) in order to actually keep up?

Because the Monk's default, unoptimized damage handily keeps up with the "naive" Fighter's, at least until Tier 3. If the encounters are challenging due to the required tactics and not the required numbers, a Monk isn't going to be slowing down the rest of the party.

I am less worried about slowing down the party as I am other members of the party eclipsing him in effectiveness. Again, he's relatively new and not as experienced, and he is unlikely to make the most of what the monk can do. I can coach him and give him some tips, but he is mostly used to standing in front of the bad guy and trading blows until one of them falls over while the rest of the party helps. If he tries that as a monk- which he very well might- he is going to get knocked out. That is likely to happen regardless of any modifications to the monk. My concern is that he will adapt, but still feel lacking. I'm not sure yet what the other two players will be bringing to the table- they like the element of surprise- but I will be playing a rogue and my wife a wizard (with a level of cleric to pick up some armor). His playstyle may dictate that he multiclasses out of Monk to become a bit sturdier, but I don't want it to happen just because he feels the monk's class is weak.

[GalacticAxekick]

[I am worried about] other members of the party eclipsing him in effectiveness. [...] He is mostly used to standing in front of the bad guy and trading blows until one of them falls over while the rest of the party helps. If he tries that as a monk- which he very well might- he is going to get knocked out.Not really. At low levels, the Monk has 16 AC, deals 13 damage per round (without ki) or 18.5 damage per round (with ki), and uses d8 hit dice. A damage-optimized Fighter has 16 AC, deals 13 damage per round, and uses d10 hit dice. The Monk is only marginally more fragile, but significantly harder hitting. I'd say they're equally likely to survive a toe-to-toe battle.

The Fighter COULD improve his AC with a shield. But that would cut his damage from 13 per round to 1d8+3 (7.5) per round. This means he can take more hits, but has to stand in close range for longer and NEEDS to take more hits. Really, there isn't a Fighter build that significantly overshadows the Monk in terms of durabilty.

[Amechra]

I'd suggest talking to your son about it — or, at least, let him know ahead of time that Monks are supposed to play more like your Rogue than his mighty Fighter or Barbarian. Who knows, maybe that's even why he wants to try out of the Monk!

[AndrewBlade]

Not really. At low levels, the Monk has 16 AC, deals 13 damage per round (without ki) or 18.5 damage per round (with ki), and uses d8 hit dice. A damage-optimized Fighter has 16 AC, deals 13 damage per round, and uses d10 hit dice. The Monk is only marginally more fragile, but significantly harder hitting. I'd say they're equally likely to survive a toe-to-toe battle.

The Fighter COULD improve his AC with a shield. But that would cut his damage from 13 per round to 1d8+3 (7.5) per round. This means he can take more hits, but has to stand in close range for longer and NEEDS to take more hits. Really, there isn't a Fighter build that significantly overshadows the Monk in terms of durabilty.

Right- I keep neglecting the quarterstaff as a primary weapon in addition to unarmed bonus attack. I keep thinking of just 1d4 damage dice for each attack.

I'll leave it be and see what happens.

Except the step of the wind for free. I still might try to make that a bit cheaper, ki-wise.


I'd suggest talking to your son about it — or, at least, let him know ahead of time that Monks are supposed to play more like your Rogue than his mighty Fighter or Barbarian. Who knows, maybe that's even why he wants to try out of the Monk!

This is my hope. He wanted to play something cool. We shall see how it goes. We don't play until the end of January- I'm just impatient and find myself with time on my hands to do nothing but think about character builds.

[Amechra]

I'm curious — what level are you starting at? And what subclass is your kid looking at?

[AndrewBlade]

I'm curious — what level are you starting at? And what subclass is your kid looking at?

Starting level 1. He's looking at Drunken Master.

[Amechra]

An excellent choice!

Drunken Master is nice because it pushes you towards hit-and-run tactics through its features — Drunken Technique practically screams "use me to punch someone then walk away".

[AndrewBlade]

I'm very excited to see him utilize some new tactics.

[MrStabby]

I wonder if it might be a small boost to change the key stats around.

Say put stunning stike onto Str to determine the DC of the save. This then means the monk can be a grappler as well as a striking martial artist. Make unarmoured defense 10 + dex + con so a monk doesn't have to sacrifice HP due to MADness. For subclasses like Open hand, Kensei, Drunken Master - they all feel more physical than spiritual so it might not be a thematic loss either.

[AndrewBlade]

I wonder if it might be a small boost to change the key stats around.

Say put stunning stike onto Str to determine the DC of the save. This then means the monk can be a grappler as well as a striking martial artist. Make unarmoured defense 10 + dex + con so a monk doesn't have to sacrifice HP due to MADness. For subclasses like Open hand, Kensei, Drunken Master - they all feel more physical than spiritual so it might not be a thematic loss either.

I'm all for the wisdom concept, as it implies that their martial arts is based on effective techniques than superior physicality. I would maybe suggest shifting the modifier for offensive grappling for a monk to wisdom, with defensive grappling (escaping a grapple) still able to use acrobatics or wisdom.

[J-H]

Astral Monk does exactly this (as well as giving reach and force damage).

[AndrewBlade]

Astral Monk does exactly this (as well as giving reach and force damage).

I know! I loved that aspect of that subclass when I read about it! Who knows, maybe my son will be into that idea before the decision comes around.

[Yakk]

Random idea about durability and monks.

What if at the end of each turn, a Monk gains temporary HP equal to the number of Ki they spent that turn times their wisdom bonus?

Total Ki (per short rest) is proportional to Monk class level. Times wisdom bonus, this acts a bit like "you can add your wisdom bonus to your HP per level", but not quite.

...

1. Add both Str and Dex to unarmed strike and monk weapon damage.

For a typical monk, this is 1 or 2 points of damage per unarmed strike; but a damage-focused monk is an option. While this does make the monk "more MAD", the balance point of this is 1-2 more damage per swing; the monk can give up wisdom or con or feats to get even more damage as an option.

2. When you spend Ki, gain temporary HP equal to # of Ki spent times Wisdom bonus at end of each turn.

Not sure how long should they last? I don't think it matters; ending on a rest is good enough I think. They don't accumulate.

3. Rework Stunning Strike. As thoughts:
* First time you hit a foe on your turn with a melee weapon attack, you get a free stunning strike
* When you score a critical hit with a melee weapon attack, you get a free stunning strike
* You can spend a Ki to make a foe reroll a successful stunning strike saving throw, but only once.

This makes Stunning Strike less spammable, and less of a Ki-sink. You can still invest Ki into it (the reroll mechanic), but it is rate-limited.

The monk will get more stun attempts per short rest this way, but fewer peak stun attempts per round, and will spend less Ki on it over a short rest typically.

4. At level 11, get a 2nd bonus action on your turn, but you cannot use the same bonus action twice.

So you can Flurry *and* use your Martial Arts to get 5 swings. Or you can Flurry and Dodge.

5. At level 17, you can spend a Ki to reroll a missed attack. This reroll has advantage, and ignores disadvantage.

This is a kind of "soft" extra attack mechanic, giving them a T4 boost.

6. At level 20, the first Ki you spend each turn is free.

Gets rid of the gamey "rolls initiative" mechanic, and has use before you are completely out of gas. Also ensures you'll always have gas.