Saira's Guide to Making Broken Characters Part 2 [Archive]

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TheNerdQueen

2021-12-20, 11:52 PM

Note: This post isn't intended to offend anyone. It's my experience from creating characters so broken that my dm said that I could have a character armed only with a spoon and take over the world. And he isn't wrong.

Hello! In part 1 I talked about soft broken characters, and how that can matter far more than stats. However, I forgot to mention the true secret of making broken characters. And here it is: There is no secret.

Wait, What are you talking about?

It's relatively simple. There is no secret. Why? Because there is no one thing you can do to truly create a broken character.
Sure, you can come close. You can make characters that seem broken, but in reality, you have just made them powerful. Now, this isn't to say that guides are useless and that there aren't individual things you can do to make your character more powerful, but in the end, those guides can only ever help with game mechanics and how to use spells. And this is useful. And you don't need truly broken characters to have fun. But in order to make truly broken characters, the type that can turn the tides of battle all by themselves, that can one-on-one the boss, that can outshine almost everyone else, you can't purely rely on guides. How do I know this? Because I can make those characters. In fact I only make those characters. Why? Because once you can, there is no going back.

Why?

Because the true secret is two things: complete and utter mastery of the game and raw intelligence. Not in-game intelligence, but out of game intelligence. You have to be creative, look outside the mechanics. Try to turn disadvantages into advantages, think of creative means to shape the environment to your advantage. Having versatility without the brains to use it well is near worthless. And that sort of thing, that sort of understanding and inteligence, can't be forgotten. Once you reach it, you can't go back. Once you taste that power, that mastery, the look of fear in your enemies eyes upon looking at you, the stories about your exploits leaving other people thinking how the f*ck did he/she/they do that? I would never have thought of that. You can't go back. It's impossible.

What about damage?

Coffeelocks, Sorcadins and Hexblades all love to show how much damage they can do. And it's very impressive. But, if your character can only do damage, they are a one-trick pony. A very useful one-trick pony, but still. Now, sometimes that's all that matters. If your DM will only allow damage to win, well, that's all you need. But, if you have a DM who is willing to tolerate any sort of shenaniganry, then pure damage becomes less important. In fact, if you're smart enough to have this type of character, you should never, ever enter a fight where you can't maneuver some sort of advantage that will help you so you almost never need to rely on only the RAW stuff that your character can do.

What the hell does that mean?

Now, this has been very vague, so I'll give an example with my most recent character, Euryale.

So, the party was in a tough spot, with the action economy heavily against us as we were facing waves and waves of town guards in a city. They had guns, and heavy metal armor. I'm a flying warlock, so at first it looks like I am doomed. But then I realize something: they have guns, and they are in close proximity to each other (but not to me). Now, most people's reaction is "Perfect! It's fireball time!" And true, fireball would have worked. But that is a third-level spell. And I had an idea that was beautiful in its simplicity. The guns have gunpowder. And gunpowder explodes when mixed with fire. And, as proper PCs, we had many ways of generating fire. So, why waste a third-level spell slot when a simple cantrip will work just fine? I blew up the gunpowder, destroying their guns and the men using them. I did this multiple times. But then, the undefeated big bad showed up. This guy had never even been hit let alone bested in a fight. But, you see, I had no intention of facing him in a one-on-one fight. I cast Enemies Abound on him, with the help of a fatal sacrifice of one of my other party members (we had revivify. The sacrifice wasn't permanent.) He killed all of his men, and in the process, I stole his super fancy gun.

EDIT: So, some of you have stated that this isn't a great example. Okay, I'll give you that. This DM doesn't have the best idea of how "game balance" works. I'll give two others (abridged).

The first is a story from my first ever time playing dnd. I was a first level druid and the only other player there was a third level idiot wizard. Because this DM apparently wanted me dead, we were faced with two-three (I forget the exact number) ogres. Because we had at least one braincell each, we decided to hide and evaluate our options. But, unfortunately for me. the wizard only had one braincell. So he snuck into melee and got KOd in one hit. Yaaayyy. So, that left me, a first level druid against two-three ogres by myself. I realized that I was a druid, and able to control animals, and so I asked the DM what animals were nearby. There wasn't anything special. So, I thought to myself, "Welp. If I'm going to die anyways, might as well be funny about it." The DM mentioned that there were mice in the forest. So, I thought, why not use them? I used magic to convince the mice to destroy the ogre's eyes. Without being able to see, I was able to defeat them by myself. It was glorious. The look on the DM's face was even more so.

The second story is from my most overpowered legal character. So, I am a seven year old flying tiefling (seven years old because roleplaying. Rest assured, I had a background that allowed for such a thing.) So, for a halloween adventure, my party were sent to find a missing child. Suprise, surprise, a queen of faeries decided to take him. So, that was our boss. She enchanted her entire court into a never-ending party, people dancing, eating, drinking and talking about useless things forever. Honestly, she was the only one that was having fun. But three things about me were on my side for a quick victory. One, I'm a sneaky rogue (an arcane trickster). Two, the queen was eating and drinking a lot, and three: I have proficiency in the poisoner's kit. Well, I know of the kidney bean poison, and how devastating it is. So, while the rest of my party caused a commotion, I slipped on a servant's uniform, poisoned her drink, and then I watched her vomit her guts out. It was great! For our party. Not the queen.

So, what's so special about that?

My victory wasn't just a result of the spells I had prepared at the time, or that my DM has a poor idea about the concept of game balance (Yes, give the Warlock a staff with heat metal in it. That will go great especially when her previous character was known for destroying entire cities. Plural), but rather because I used my head. I used my environment to my advantage and used my resources wisely. It's because know dnd 5e. I have most of the sourcebooks, I've studied them thoroughly. And that's how I won. I, single-handedly, saved the party from complete and utter defeat. Now, I didn't do it alone, but if I wasn't there, some of the party may have died permanently. So I'll say it again. There is no substitute for creativity, real-world intelligence, and game mastery. Guides can only give you other people's advice and experience. In order to make truly broken characters, the stuff of legends, you have to be able to make this stuff on your own. I have dozens of this type of story. Sure, other people can give you advice, but in the end, it's up to you.

Willowhelm

2021-12-21, 12:47 AM

Now, this has been very vague, so I'll give an example with my most recent character, Euryale.

So, the party was in a tough spot, with the action economy heavily against us as we were facing waves and waves of town guards in a city. They had guns, and heavy metal armor. I'm a flying warlock, so at first it looks like I am doomed. But then I realize something: they have guns, and they are in close proximity to each other (but not to me). Now, most people's reaction is "Perfect! It's fireball time!" And true, fireball would have worked. But that is a third-level spell. And I had an idea that was beautiful in its simplicity. The guns have gunpowder. And gunpowder explodes when mixed with fire. And, as proper PCs, we had many ways of generating fire. So, why waste a third-level spell slot when a simple cantrip will work just fine? I blew up the gunpowder, destroying their guns and the men using them. I did this multiple times. But then, the undefeated big bad showed up. This guy had never even been hit let alone bested in a fight. But, you see, I had no intention of facing him in a one-on-one fight. I cast Enemies Abound on him, with the help of a fatal sacrifice of one of my other party members (we had revivify. The sacrifice wasn't permanent.) He killed all of his men, and in the process, I stole his super fancy gun.

So your dm let you use a cantrip to affect gunpowder contained inside another object and this explosion destroyed all the guns?

That’s not how the game mechanics work. That’s not how the spell works. That’s not how real world physics works or how gunpowder actually burns if I recall correctly.

I wouldn’t go patting yourself on the back or use this an example of “breaking” anything. This is just your DM allowing OP shenanigans for fun.

Greywander

2021-12-21, 12:52 AM

First, no link to part 1?

Second,

So, why waste a third-level spell slot when a simple cantrip will work just fine? I blew up the gunpowder,
I need more context on this. Neither Fire Bolt nor Fireball ignite items that are being worn or carried (though this is clever and I might allow it, though turnabout is fair play :smallamused:), and shooting someone's gun isn't going to cause a big enough explosion to create a chain reaction. I you were shooting barrels of powder instead of individual guns, I also don't see why they would bring barrels of powder to the site of an altercation instead of each guard simply grabbing as much as they needed on their way out of the armory.

Thirdly, I think I see what you're saying. Something I'll add is not to get too hung up on the mechanics. If you focus too much on one aspect of the game, you'll blind yourself to other opportunities. You need to balance all three aspects of Gamist, Simulationist, and Narrativist, allowing you to leverage all three to get done the things you want to. Knowledge of the rules can take you very far, but there are other areas to explore. You're also exploring a simulation of a fantasy world, and sometimes you need to go beyond mere mechanics and do something that would logically make sense if it was a real world and not just a game. And sometimes narrative tropes are at play, and you can bend both the rules and the simulation to fit a particular narrative; basically being so genre savvy that the universe restructures itself to accommodate the narrative you've contrived. And while intelligence plays a huge role, it's only one side of the coin. The other side is persuasion; specifically, persuading your DM that what you're trying to do makes sense. Does it make sense according to the rules? Does it make sense according to the lore, or how that world works? Does it makes sense according to the story being told?

Basically, the peasant rail gun, but it makes sense. One of the brilliant aspects of the peasant rail gun is that it incorporates both appeals to the rules as well as appeals to the simulation. Where it fails is that it is clearly stupid and definitely would not work in any way. What you want is something like the peasant rail gun, but that actually makes sense and everyone agrees that it should work like that, that the DM is on board to bend the rules to allow it to happen. A simple example might be using Acid Splash to melt a chain holding up a chandelier, collapsing it onto a group of enemies. Very reasonable, makes sense that something like that should work, but isn't allowed by the rules. A DM who agrees that it makes sense should be willing to bend the rules for you, though as I mentioned above, turnabout is fair play; if you can do it, so can your enemies, so maybe take care before setting a precedent.

Of course YMMV. Not every DM will be so permissive. Some DMs see it as part of the role of the DM to enforce the rules. While this isn't entirely incorrect, it's largely superfluous as long as your players aren't deliberately trying to cheat (which if they are then you should probably kick them). Good players will follow the rules without needing to be forced to, though they may need reminding from time to time (and some may need to spend more time reading the rules). Rather, what the DM should be focusing more on is adjudicating things outside the rules. You're not supposed to strictly adhere to the rules; part of the game is that the DM can choose to ignore the rules in specific cases, or create new rulings for things not previously covered by the rules.

Gurgeh

2021-12-21, 12:53 AM

So, panel 2 (https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1986/11/09), then?

Unoriginal

2021-12-21, 02:08 AM

Seems that the secret to making broken characters is to have a permissive DM who doesn't mind ignoring the rules to give said characters victory.

Sorry to say, but fighting troops that can be both disarmed AND blown uo by a cantrip (despite no cantrip being able to do so) as well as a supposedly undefeated BBEG who could be defeated by a single 3rd level spell that last at most 10 rounds (assuming they fail each save they get whenever they get hurt) does not demonstrate mastery of the game.

I wouldn’t go patting yourself on the back or use this an example of “breaking” anything. This is just your DM allowing OP shenanigans for fun.

Indeed.

AIResearch

2021-12-21, 03:46 AM

oxybe

2021-12-21, 06:08 AM

The principles behind the argument of the OP are sound. "There is no substitute for creativity, real-world intelligence, and game mastery" is a solid thesis.

The example the OP used however for illustration purposes was weak/problematic. Does anyone have a really good example of using Situational Awareness to maximum effect?

Adventures in Middle Earth game
Third day of the dark forces sieging a bridge and gatehouse the party and a small village militia are holding. We had gotten a portent on the first day that fire and water would be useful and both proved their worth, with fire being effective deterrents and causing harm to the enemy while during the seige the river started flowing rather fast and stopped enemies from swimming across.

So third day. We're holding our own when some sort of terrible evil began making it's way across the bridge, a wretched corpse caught in a gibbet, carried by a wagon pulled by two terrible steeds. it also spoke in our minds and could cause our dwarf to go stiff with fear or cause huge, head-splitting migranes.

As it approached our now tired, battered and shook fortifications... from the top of the gatehouse I loosed my grappling hook, caught the gibbet, jumped off and into the drink, letting gravity do the rest. the weight of my character toppled the gibbet and sent it over the bridge's side and into the water, with me holding on to one of the pillars of the bridge for dear life.

The river began to bubble and roil with a black ichor. Then it stopped.

End result: Boss beaten with an Athletics check.

Jakinbandw

2021-12-21, 09:35 AM

The principles behind the argument of the OP are sound. "There is no substitute for creativity, real-world intelligence, and game mastery" is a solid thesis.

The example the OP used however for illustration purposes was weak/problematic. Does anyone have a really good example of using Situational Awareness to maximum effect?

Curse of Strahd Valaki: The gm was using a fan made version that ends with the entire town caught in a fight between cultists lead by Fiona, and the guards. Our party was a religious party for Palor, and despite that (and because palor was a foreign god) both sides tried to recruit us.

Each gave us missions (like kill the head guard). What followed was multiple sessions full of deception, info gathering, and robbery, as we 'completed' missions for the cultists, kidnapped the head guard (then released him telling him that this was a authorized sting op against Fiona), and got influence with both the church and the cultists.

In the end we kidnapped both Fiona and the burgomaster. Fiona got handed to strahd (she had a ...thing... for him) and was seen 'killing' the bugormaster, while the burgomaster got whisked away to the church in Barovia, not to be seen or heard from again until he completed mandatory therapy.

The lawful neutral head guard found a note that left him as the new burgomaster, with guidance to listen to the local church that owed us big time. And, under their guidance and because of deals made for help, the vistani were allowed in to valaki once more.

Strahd showed up, but didn't want to nuke q bunch of valaki, so he just kinda shrugged, offered us an invitation to dinner, than placed out.

As for loot we ended up with 3 single use wands of wall of fire, and the undying loyalty of an entire town. It took lot of work and problem solving, but we got a really good ending to that arc, and it mostly relied on problem solving, rather than brute force.

qube

2021-12-21, 10:36 AM

The principles behind the argument of the OP are sound. "There is no substitute for creativity, real-world intelligence, and game mastery" is a solid thesis.

The example the OP used however for illustration purposes was weak/problematic. Does anyone have a really good example of using Situational Awareness to maximum effect?To block vampires (who could cross running water), a player of mine made an illusion of a river. The vampire failed his save; presumed it was real, and never tried to cross it.

-------------

I would say, anything that adds real life physics to the ability.
Use Terrain
An attack action with a sword does 1d8+5 damage.
An attack action to shove someone 5ft ... off a cliff, does A LOT of damage
Don't ignore ribbon effects
Firebolt does say: A flammable object hit by this spell ignites if it isn’t being worn or carried
... ropes, wood, etc ... these are ignitable.
you can add ribbon effects.
if the cold spell doesn't say it freezes water ... you could always ask your DM
( <-- this is one of the 'soft broken' things that reaaaally break spellcasters. it's not uncommon to thread magic as special)

I wouldn’t go patting yourself on the back or use this an example of “breaking” anything. This is just your DM allowing OP shenanigans for fun.
it's also possible the DM was simply trusting the most knowledgeble player at the table on their word that the spell worked like that.

But be it a high modifier, or a low DC, nothing beats a successful outgame persuasion check to the DM.

TMac9000

2021-12-21, 11:02 AM

End result: Boss beaten with an Athletics check.

A very similar thing happened in a 5E game last year.

The situation: the party was going through some rough country following a road that had been carved in a mountainside. Steep mountain above, steep fall below. Then, we meet a group of orcs led by a troll. The troll was out in front.

Split-second decision. My character was a cleric, but got Athletics from the Soldier background. The fall might not kill the troll outright, but it would absolutely take them out of the fight until they fished themselves out of the river, found the bottom of the trail, and jogged back up. So: I told the DM that I was going to run up and body-block him off the side.

I rolled high, he rolled low, and as they say, gravity is a harsh mistress. Mopping up the demoralized orcs was relatively easy.

Unoriginal

2021-12-21, 11:26 AM

"There is no substitute for creativity, real-world intelligence, and game mastery" is not a solid thesis, it's just stating an obvious, wide truth.

It's like saying that there is no substitute for tactical thinking, advantageous physical features, and mastery of the techniques if you want to win a boxing match.

At best it's a counter to people who say you can beat anything with those 5 weird tricks, but *that* would be the fragile thesis, rather than the counter being strong.

you can add ribbon effects.

No, you can't. You can add cosmetic, effect-less features.

it's also possible the DM was simply trusting the most knowledgeble player at the table on their word that the spell worked like that.

Which shows how that anecdote demonstrates a lack of game mastery more than anything else.

But be it a high modifier, or a low DC, nothing beats a successful outgame persuasion check to the DM.

Showcasing that the secret to making broken characters is to have a permissive DM going along with what the player wants.

KorvinStarmast

2021-12-21, 01:26 PM

This is just your DM allowing OP shenanigans for fun. Which can be fun, in its own way.

So, panel 2 (https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1986/11/09), then? Calvin and Hobbes FTW. Thank you! :smallsmile:

Does anyone have a really good example of using Situational Awareness to maximum effect? My brother's paladin shoved an ogre off of a cliff (guidance from the cleric was the clincher) and the goblins surrendered.

To block vampires (who could cross running water), a player of mine made an illusion of a river. The vampire failed his save; presumed it was real, and never tried to cross it. That one's going into the 'steal this! folder. :smallsmile:

-------------

nothing beats a successful outgame persuasion check to the DM. True enough.

A very similar thing happened in a 5E game last year. Nice! :smallsmile:

Unoriginal

2021-12-21, 01:35 PM

Which can be fun, in its own way.

That is true, but to argue that it makes broken characters is... mind-boggling.

KorvinStarmast

2021-12-21, 01:39 PM

That is true, but to argue that it makes broken characters is... mind-boggling. Also true. :smallcool:

PhantomSoul

2021-12-21, 01:53 PM

That is true, but to argue that it makes broken characters is... mind-boggling.

As is saying there's no one thing to make a broken character when apparently the permissive/rule-bending DM is that one thing! :)

Brookshw

2021-12-21, 02:33 PM

As is saying there's no one thing to make a broken character when apparently the permissive/rule-bending DM is that one thing! :)

/Shrug, it's just rule of cool. As soon as the post said "complete and utter mastery of the game and raw intelligence", and then went on to ignore game rules I stopped paying attention. Glad they're having fun though.

Elric VIII

2021-12-21, 02:55 PM

I actually just left a table over a situation of similarly "broken" characters. There were 4 other players and two of them were seriously outperforming the rest of us to a startling degree. However, the issue wasn't one of uneven system mastery or even creativity/situational awareness between the players. As stated above, a permissive DM was the major driving force, specifically a DM that is nonconfrontational and showed favoritism. One of our players convinced the DM to allow a homebrew class that was already over-tuned, then combined that with his own lack of rules understanding (always in his favor) and a passive-aggressive attitude when his mistakes were pointed out. So the DM let him completely dominate encounters by being "creative" with his abilities. The second player, simply put, was one of the few young women that plays in our area and the DM was basically simping through letting her do whatever she wanted. He would legitimately focus on her/her character to the point that we pretty much watched a 2-person game in every non-combat situation and enemies seemed to rarely succeed on any save against her spells. I got tired of it and left, another player left shortly after. I can't imagine the last guy is having much fun being sandwiched between two players in a Mary Sue competition.

I bring this up because in this game, aside from exploitable rules interactions, there is no excuse for any character to be broken. There are very few moving parts in this game compared to something like 3.5, so the DM can easily bring things into balance if he knows what he's doing. The original post seems very much like a situation I described above, where misinterpreting the rules and a favorable DM disposition makes her all her characters "broken" when compared to the rest of the table. And acting like like this is some great accomplishment is a great way to ruin everyone else's fun.

Valmark

2021-12-21, 03:23 PM

Link to part 1. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?602635-Saira-s-guide-to-soft-broken-characters&highlight=TheNerdQueen)

Agreed with others on saying that the point of the post is kinda sound if a bit obvious (It's basically 'learn to use your features') though the example cheapens it, since it's based around table-specific factors that aren't probably going to be shared if the other posts are anything to go by.

PhantomSoul

2021-12-21, 03:33 PM

Link to part 1. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?602635-Saira-s-guide-to-soft-broken-characters&highlight=TheNerdQueen)

Thanks!

And agreed with this quote from the other thread, which is what seems to be the main and repeated point of contention with the current OP:

I agree. It is very satisfying to break combat with an OP character within the boundaries of RAW/RAI. Otherwise it feels cheap.

I was intrigued/eager to see an "actual" guide to broken characters: what combinations or abilities are above the curve or let you do unexpected things, what interactions are available and might be missed, etc. Sure, a lot of it wouldn't be new (and maybe none of it would be), but there could be interesting stuff, and with new books potentially things I hadn't seen that would (unambiguously) be valid within RAW.

Greywander

2021-12-21, 04:07 PM

I see what people are saying. "It's easy to be OP if the DM lets you get away with it." But I don't think that's supposed to be the point of this thread. This is less about exploiting a permissive/doormat DM and more about finding solutions to problems that aren't straightforward and might require some DM adjudication. That's why in my post I brought up the three pillars of Gamism, Simulationism, and Narrativism, and how both creativity and persuasion are required. The first half is finding a potential solution to your problem that makes sense either by the rules of the game, by how the simulated world should function, or by the flow of the narrative. It is key that your potential solution actually makes sense by one or more of these metrics; you're not just trying to pull a fast one, you're trying to think outside the box. The second half is convincing your DM that your solution is reasonable and sound, and that they should permit it, or at least permit you to attempt it.

So really this could be a guide with three parts. One part explores a number of weird or little-known mechanical interactions, basically asking you to improve your mastery of the mechanics. Another part explores how a simulated fantasy world should function, possibly looking at things like Aristotelian physics, alchemy, and similar scientific and pseudo-scientific beliefs that were commonplace in the middle ages, as well as how medieval societies actually functioned and how things like magic might change that. The last part would explore common narrative tropes in stories, especially fantasy stories, and especially tropes that are commonly used in D&D and other TTRPGs, allowing you to predict the future by anticipating the next step in the narrative progression or manipulate the plot by introducing your own narrative twist.

PhantomSoul

2021-12-21, 04:08 PM

Akal Saris

2021-12-21, 04:23 PM

Greywander, I think that's a great idea. There's basically a few areas of mastery needed:

1) Character creation and spell/equipment preparation - general knowledge of game options. Can be sidestepped to some degree by using guides.
2) System rules mastery - knowing options you have in unusual situations, e.g. do you know you can drop prone against archers for X bonus, or use grapple to move people?
3) World mastery - thinking through what is possible for a character in the setting and how you can utilize that to solve problems.
4) Story/narrative mastery - keeping in mind things such as D&D module/dungeon design, the way that D&D mixes 'boss' encounters with weak encounters, knowing when you should be suspicious of your kind but mysterious benefactor, etc.

For example, regarding system rules mastery, as an optimizer, one of the things that I design my characters for is action economy. I try to always have long/medium duration spells cast in advance of combat, to have multiple options available for standard+bonus actions, and to place my character in areas to best take advantage of reactions like opportunity attacks.

TheNerdQueen

2021-12-21, 05:38 PM

TheNerdQueen

2021-12-21, 05:39 PM

TheNerdQueen

2021-12-21, 05:44 PM

Thanks!

And agreed with this quote from the other thread, which is what seems to be the main and repeated point of contention with the current OP:

I was intrigued/eager to see an "actual" guide to broken characters: what combinations or abilities are above the curve or let you do unexpected things, what interactions are available and might be missed, etc. Sure, a lot of it wouldn't be new (and maybe none of it would be), but there could be interesting stuff, and with new books potentially things I hadn't seen that would (unambiguously) be valid within RAW.

Fair enough! However, the point of this isn't to "cheat" the rules. One example of rules exploitation that is 100% legal RAW but no sane DM would allow is the fact that a halfling can fit inside of a keyhole. See, according to the squeezing rules, a creature can fit into any space one size smaller than they are. And, the only size smaller than small is tiny, and therefore everything smaller than small is tiny. However, no sane DM would ever allow that, and even I would never suggest such a thing except for as a joke. And I see your point about it feeling cheap, and if you feel that way then that's okay, but I feel that using situational advantage caused by game mastery and intelligence isn't cheap. But again, it's not my place to say that my way is the only, or even the best way. It's simply my way, and if you don't agree, then that's okay.

TheNerdQueen

2021-12-21, 05:44 PM

That is true, but to argue that it makes broken characters is... mind-boggling.

What do you mean?

Brookshw

2021-12-21, 06:26 PM

One example of rules exploitation that is 100% legal RAW but no sane DM would allow is the fact that a halfling can fit inside of a keyhole. See, according to the squeezing rules, a creature can fit into any space one size smaller than they are.

Incorrect.

A creature can squeeze through a space that is large enough for a creature one size smaller than it.

A creature sized tiny takes up a space 2 1/2 x 2 1/2. You would need a very sizable keyhole to count as a space for a tiny creature, nothing under those dimensions could be squeezed through by a halfling.

Unoriginal

2021-12-21, 07:04 PM

I see what people are saying. "It's easy to be OP if the DM lets you get away with it." But I don't think that's supposed to be the point of this thread.

It wasn't what OP wanted to show, but it's what they showed.

This is less about exploiting a permissive/doormat DM and more about finding solutions to problems that aren't straightforward and might require some DM adjudication.

Hypothetically, but OP made clear to everyone (except perhaps to themselves) that it is about presenting ideas without concern for the limits the game has and let the DM hand you victory because the idea was fun/cool/said out loud.

What do you mean?

What I said: having a DM who lets you do things without caring about the rules of the game does not mean your character is OP, broken, or anything.

It just means you have a permissive DM.

Captain Panda

2021-12-21, 07:18 PM

Willowhelm

2021-12-21, 07:31 PM

EDIT: So, some of you have stated that this isn't a great example. Okay, I'll give you that. This DM doesn't have the best idea of how "game balance" works. I'll give two others (abridged).

The first is a story from my first ever time playing dnd. I was a first level druid and the only other player there was a third level idiot wizard. Because this DM apparently wanted me dead, we were faced with two-three (I forget the exact number) ogres. Because we had at least one braincell each, we decided to hide and evaluate our options. But, unfortunately for me. the wizard only had one braincell. So he snuck into melee and got KOd in one hit. Yaaayyy. So, that left me, a first level druid against two-three ogres by myself. I realized that I was a druid, and able to control animals, and so I asked the DM what animals were nearby. There wasn't anything special. So, I thought to myself, "Welp. If I'm going to die anyways, might as well be funny about it." The DM mentioned that there were mice in the forest. So, I thought, why not use them? I used magic to convince the mice to destroy the ogre's eyes. Without being able to see, I was able to defeat them by myself. It was glorious. The look on the DM's face was even more so.

The second story is from my most overpowered legal character. So, I am a seven year old flying tiefling (seven years old because roleplaying. Rest assured, I had a background that allowed for such a thing.) So, for a halloween adventure, my party were sent to find a missing child. Suprise, surprise, a queen of faeries decided to take him. So, that was our boss. She enchanted her entire court into a never-ending party, people dancing, eating, drinking and talking about useless things forever. Honestly, she was the only one that was having fun. But three things about me were on my side for a quick victory. One, I'm a sneaky rogue (an arcane trickster). Two, the queen was eating and drinking a lot, and three: I have proficiency in the poisoner's kit. Well, I know of the kidney bean poison, and how devastating it is. So, while the rest of my party caused a commotion, I slipped on a servant's uniform, poisoned her drink, and then I watched her vomit her guts out. It was great! For our party. Not the queen.

This is fun but again not evidence of “broken” characters. I’m not sure what part of being a Druid makes you believe you can control animals but even if you can, your DM allowing for a targeted attack that inflicts blindness is another example of the DM being lenient. On top of that, blindness gives disadvantage - it shouldn’t trivialise the encounter.

The poison is also a good idea. I’ve had the opportunity to do similar. However, poisons and their effects are reasonably covered in the game mechanics. In my case the poison came from earlier in the session and had specific effects (sleep). Inflicting the poisoned condition doesn’t end an encounter. Being proficient doesn’t mean you have access to the poison. The entire situation as described is questionable and, again, relies on the DM. How did the queen allow you in with poison? How did you have access to it? How does a servant uniform fit a seven year old tiefling? How do the guards let you (a 7 year old!) get the poison into the food? How does the queen have no poison taster? How did “kidney bean poison” have such an effect? How did that solve anything? This is all handwaved away because it’s fun - not because the character or the idea is broken.

I don’t know what you are referring to as kidney bean poison but incorrectly prepared beans do not have this effect. It takes hours for the toxicity in the beans to cause nausea etc. I’m assuming you’re not dropping a bean in her wine…

On a different level I would also question how your character has all the knowledge and intelligence you claim in the real world. If you’re claiming above average intelligence is what let’s you come up with these things - do you make sure all your characters have an INT stat to reflect that? Did they have firearms proficiency to know about gunpowder? Did they have the charisma to convince mice to take such uncharacteristic action?

These sound like fun games to play and a DM that rolls with out of the box thinking but they’re not broken characters.

Gignere

2021-12-21, 07:39 PM

Unoriginal

2021-12-21, 07:43 PM

I mean, I appreciate the creativity and your DM allowing fun things (granted, I wouldn't, that was a very lenient pushover of a DM). You aren't having fun wrong, but when people talk about powerful/broken characters, they mean characters that can be relied upon to perform without a substantial amount of DM buy-in. If a concept requires a super nice DM to bend or ignore the rules, it isn't broken, because it isn't really a character that you can export from one table to another.

You can take a sorcadin to most tables, it's a legal build.

I don't want to discourage you or poopoo on your fun, but having fun times and a DM using rule of cool has nothing to do with "broken" characters.

This.

There is no wrong way to have fun, but that does not making any character broken or optimized or good.

The first is a story from my first ever time playing dnd. I was a first level druid and the only other player there was a third level idiot wizard. Because this DM apparently wanted me dead, we were faced with two-three (I forget the exact number) ogres. Because we had at least one braincell each, we decided to hide and evaluate our options. But, unfortunately for me. the wizard only had one braincell. So he snuck into melee and got KOd in one hit. Yaaayyy. So, that left me, a first level druid against two-three ogres by myself. I realized that I was a druid, and able to control animals, and so I asked the DM what animals were nearby. There wasn't anything special. So, I thought to myself, "Welp. If I'm going to die anyways, might as well be funny about it." The DM mentioned that there were mice in the forest. So, I thought, why not use them? I used magic to convince the mice to destroy the ogre's eyes. Without being able to see, I was able to defeat them by myself. It was glorious. The look on the DM's face was even more so.

See, this is exactly what I mean.

How would a mouse destroy one eye on a live, conscious Ogre? Let alone two eyes? Let alone 6?

A mouse, even if you are generous and use the Rat statblock, is a CR 0 creature with +0 to attack, AC 10, 1 HP, and dealing 1 damage per hit.

Even if you want to handwave it narratively rather than stat-wise, how does it make sense narratively that small, weak rodents are able to blind fearsome Giants? They wouldn't be considered that fearsome by the people in-setting if they could be taken out that easily.

Your DM liked the idea, found it cool, and decided that it worked. That's it.

The poison is also a good idea. I’ve had the opportunity to do similar. However, poisons and their effects are reasonably covered in the game mechanics. In my case the poison came from earlier in the session and had specific effects (sleep). Inflicting the poisoned condition doesn’t end an encounter. Being proficient doesn’t mean you have access to the poison. The entire situation as described is questionable and, again, relies on the DM. How did the queen allow you in with poison? How did you have access to it? How does a servant uniform fit a seven year old tiefling? How do the guards let you (a 7 year old!) get the poison into the food? How does the queen have no poison taster? How did “kidney bean poison” have such an effect? How did that solve anything?

Indeed. Even if the Queen of Faeries was actively fooled by the disguise when she's enchanting everyone but the PCs, and could actually be poisoned by that homebrew poison... how does making her vomit change anything?

You now have a pissed off, very powerful Fey, who has magic control over the whole court. That's how bloodbaths start.

This is all handwaved away because it’s fun - not because the character or the idea is broken.

Indeed again.

There is nothing wrong with a DM allowing things for fun, but it shouldn't be mistaken for well-thought-out ideas, advanced tactics, or character-brokeness.

KOLE

2021-12-21, 10:50 PM

Damn, Unoriginal, thank you for so succinctly summarizing my own thoughts before I even had the time to write them.

I'm glad everyone that is sharing their stories, especially OP, are having fun. Truly. However,
1. I hope OP isn't the only one in their campaign the DM is so lenient to or that's a miserable campaign,
2. Having a lenient DM is not "breaking" a character/campaign. It just means the DM is letting you win easier. Which could be a good thing! If it adds to your game and you're all having fun, that's literally all that matters. However, making a guide generally means you have something to share with people to bring to their own table, like how to optimize a class/multiclass or what the best spells in a certain context are to take. I feel like calling something a "guide" when it's mostly a way to share campaign stories about your own character a bit... Vain?

Also, real world intelligence only takes you so far in D&D. The fantasy world does not work according to our own logic, nor should it. Arguing with your DM about realism is a quick way to either get dropped from a campaign or get everyone but you and the DM to leave the table if said DM rules for you often.

TheNerdQueen

2021-12-22, 12:07 AM

This is fun but again not evidence of “broken” characters. I’m not sure what part of being a Druid makes you believe you can control animals but even if you can, your DM allowing for a targeted attack that inflicts blindness is another example of the DM being lenient. On top of that, blindness gives disadvantage - it shouldn’t trivialise the encounter.

The poison is also a good idea. I’ve had the opportunity to do similar. However, poisons and their effects are reasonably covered in the game mechanics. In my case the poison came from earlier in the session and had specific effects (sleep). Inflicting the poisoned condition doesn’t end an encounter. Being proficient doesn’t mean you have access to the poison. The entire situation as described is questionable and, again, relies on the DM. How did the queen allow you in with poison? How did you have access to it? How does a servant uniform fit a seven year old tiefling? How do the guards let you (a 7 year old!) get the poison into the food? How does the queen have no poison taster? How did “kidney bean poison” have such an effect? How did that solve anything? This is all handwaved away because it’s fun - not because the character or the idea is broken.

I don’t know what you are referring to as kidney bean poison but incorrectly prepared beans do not have this effect. It takes hours for the toxicity in the beans to cause nausea etc. I’m assuming you’re not dropping a bean in her wine…

On a different level I would also question how your character has all the knowledge and intelligence you claim in the real world. If you’re claiming above average intelligence is what let’s you come up with these things - do you make sure all your characters have an INT stat to reflect that? Did they have firearms proficiency to know about gunpowder? Did they have the charisma to convince mice to take such uncharacteristic action?

These sound like fun games to play and a DM that rolls with out of the box thinking but they’re not broken characters.

Again, fair enough, but the reason I beat them was because druids have ranged attacks and ogres don't.

Unoriginal

2021-12-22, 12:12 AM

Again, fair enough, but the reason I beat them was because druids have ranged attacks and ogres don't.

This is not true.

Ogres have Large-sized Javelins which can easily one-shot a lvl 1 Druid.

Ogre:

Actions

Greatclub: Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 13 (2d8 + 4) bludgeoning damage.

Javelin: Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft. or range 30/120 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) piercing damage.

Phhase

2021-12-22, 01:42 AM

Also, real world intelligence only takes you so far in D&D. The fantasy world does not work according to our own logic, nor should it.

I understand the point you're trying to make here, but the phrasing is...perhaps unfavorable. It sounds less like "Don't be a weenie about it." and more like "Why should you expect anything to make sense? Don't ask questions or innovate." I don't think any sane person really wants to argue over things like the square-cube ratio. That's just part and parcel. But other things, like the mechanics of interrupting the actions of others with Ready actions, or perhaps looking for sulfur crystals in an area with volcanic vents, those might be rulings worth talking about, right?

Even if the Queen of Faeries was actively fooled by the disguise when she's enchanting everyone but the PCs, and could actually be poisoned by that homebrew poison... how does making her vomit change anything?

I fail to see why it would need to do more than that. It's funny!

You now have a pissed off, very powerful Fey, who has magic control over the whole court. That's how bloodbaths start.

See? Funny! :smallbiggrin:

It's my experience from creating characters so broken that my dm said that I could have a character armed only with a spoon and take over the world. And he isn't wrong.

(snip)

...hey, you're the one who I admired for that post about creative use of Shape Water and poison and stuff, aren't you? I remember!

While I do agree with the zeitgeist of permissive DMs versus creative problem solving (having had both in quantity myself), it's impossible for me to overstate how much I agree with the spirit of your post. Truly, it speaks to the core of my playstyle. No matter the odds, Mind is the Fearkiller. I'd be more than happy to share some of the clever twists I've had the privilege of executing on, as well as some yet to the light of a non-hypothetical day....

Firstly, Gaseous Form. It's actually incredible for both reconnaissance, exploration, and potentially combat. Firstly, while not invisible, a cloud of gas is still much more surreptitious than a normal form. Second, it allows you to fit into "even mere cracks". ANYWHERE that isn't hermetically sealed (a tall order) is accessible to you, and potentially inaccessible to others. And hey, if there isn't a single crack, you could always, y'know...make one. Second, a creature's throat/gullet is significantly wider than "a mere crack". What happens when you invade a creature's lungs or gastrointestinal system is up to the DM, but very few options are favorable for your opponent.

Secondly, more as an addendum to your point on use of terrain, Demolitions. Always consider demolitions. Structures are designed to hold themselves up, but the moment you take away a piece of that, there's every possibility of collapse, in as local or broad of a scale as you can muster. The world is not just set dressing, it is a tool in your hand. Burrow beneath foundations to set charges (I've always wanted Claws of the Umber Hulk), use Mold Earth/Shape Water in tandem to crack stone, freeze water in cracks to widen, repeat, use acid to dissolve critical support beams, use that adamantite weapon you've been holding onto to shear the tip of that cliff off, cause a cave-in, cause an avalanche, go crazy.

Thirdly, Control Water. What it lacks in Shape Water's precision, it makes up for in sheer scale. Consider Redirect Flow. With access to enough water, you can cause it to flow in any direction. Including, perhaps, upward. Do you see what I am getting at? If you're near a significant body of water, or can keep raising more water with the Flood function, you could cause a huuuuuge sphere of water to start build up in midair. Potentially 300 feet in the air. From there, you have your options cut out for you. Use Shape Water to start a bombardment of 5-foot square ice cubes? Sure. Drop the whole thing in a massive watery smite? Ok. Cast cold spells at it to create a mega-icicle? On the rocks, my dude. Of course, that's not the only fearsome, creative thing you can do with Control Water. Or, should I call it by its proper name, Create Quicksand? True, it won't work in stony areas (that's what Transmute Rock is for!), but in earthen areas where it's justifiable you could raise groundwater? Oh boy. Not only could you entrap a whole BUNCH of creatures, you might even be able to use things like the Part Water and Whirlpool functions on the quicksand to pull creatures deeper into the morass. And don't forget about my second point Demolition, now! What happens to a structure when the ground beneath becomes dirt soup? Down, down, down it sinks! For more mundane applications of Control Water, you could likely simply use the Flood function in a room to simply turn it into a drowning chamber. Hope your party brought snorkels rebreathers!

Now for a few slightly more humble examples of cleverness. This one, I think,is a slightly more RAW-supported version of your trick with Firebolt. Don't forget, Prestidigitation is just a codename, the spell's real name is Least Wish! It specifically notes that you can "ignite or extinguish flames equivalent to a candle torch or campfire". I was beset by enemies using matchlock muskets. Using prestidigitation, I extinguished the match on one of their firearms, and on another turn, used it to ignite a visible powder horn on one of their persons. If the firearm was a flintlock with a visible firing pan, you could also potentially cause the gun to misfire by setting it off!

For another example you might find strangely familiar, I once snuck into a cave full of stone giants (at least 8 or 9, and I was only a level 7 or 8 Mystic) in order to rescue the remaining crewmates they'd kidnapped from an airship they downed with boulders. No match for them in combat, I decided to hearken to the classics: I used my Delusion psychic talent (basically minor illusion) to start an argument among the giants. See, the issue was that the prisoners were in the middle of being prepared for dinner by the chef. I couldn't just swipe them or they'd be immediately missed. So I listened to the sounds of their voices and started sowing the seeds of discord. The chef "heard" another giant malign his food. The chief heard someone bad-mouth him. A terse discussion began. I took advantage of the distraction and took a risk by sprinkling some of the...already cooked food...with some yellow mold I'd gotten off of a druid. Driven by the chef's protests, the chief sampled the poor bastard on the spit and found the flavor revolting. Another giant was heard saying they brought in dogwood for the cookfire, as they were instructed. The argument grew heated. Fights broke out. I stuffed the prisoners who were still alive into a bag of holding and invoked Wind Form to fly up the slender chimney. But not before a parting shot: I blasted the only giant sized entrance to the cave room with Detonation. The entrance began to cave in (yes, this is a DM letting the player do it moment, I do concede, but you can't deny, it was reasonable enough to be worth a try. Demolition!), leaving the giants to their tomb. Or at the least, their time out corner, giving us time to escape.

Gandalf and the Trolls from The Hobbit, remember?

Here's a social trick you might like, one I've used before. Have an enemy? Have some gold? Have some reasonable evidence of a crime? Or even just a plausible story? Use that artist's tools (any sort) proficiency and whip up a wanted poster, complete with bounty. Maybe even set it up formally with the local authorities! Nothin' like a little greed to flush your adversaries out.

The ld50 of caffeine is about 125 milligrams per pound of weight. Prestidigitation can change the flavor and color of things. In a setting with coffee, use that information for what you will, ye poisoners. Same goes with irritant compounds like capsaicin, as well as intoxicants like ethanol! "Here, have a cool drink of water!" "Wow, thanks! It's cool, and tastes like water! Wait, where did my equilibrium go?" Make that grocery store chem work for you!

Encounter any nasties that are carrying particularly notable diseases? Pop a chunk of 'em in a vial and cast Gentle Repose. Gotta keep those bioweapons viable!

How much oil can the general store sell you? Fire is a lovely thing, and a more or less guaranteed flat 5 fire damage is surprisingly powerful. Try using Catapult to fling it! For that matter, try flinging a net with it! The range is much better than your arm can manage.

There is a thread, somewhere, out there, that details the potentially infinite power that the spell Magic Mouth offers. It depends heavily on DM interpretation of the rules, but conservatively, it can still be used to make an earpiece that reliably assists you in identifying the presence of a nearby <entity type>.

I've yet to have a chance to try it, and it's surely interpretation dependent, but I want to try combining a lariat with a hangman's noose on the end with an immovable rod anchor and an effect with high knockback. Neck go snap!

Don't want someone to escape? Time for the buddy cop special. Use manacles and cuff em' to you.

Those damned casters doing their thing? Speak to your DM about garotte wires. The suffocation rules might be lenient, but the standards for verbal components are not. *sigh* No, I've quintuple-checked, the grappled and restrained conditions don't do anything RAW. Somatic components may as well not exist with how interactive they are.

Here's a sneaky one: casting Suggestion on yourself or an ally. You could use it as a safeguard against mind control effects :vaarsuvius: ("I suggest that if you feel a sudden compulsion or attraction towards an entity where none was before, to completely disregard anything they tell you to explicitly or implicitly do or say.") reinforce a behavior ("When doing <critical action>, you/I WILL do your/my utmost to perform perfectly in the moment.), or even test for hallucination ("Wake up!"). The only limits are the limits of the humanoid mind (and, of course, the limits of your DM's interpretation of the spell).

How's that? Halfway decent?

Gtdead

2021-12-22, 05:44 AM

Creativity is a slippery slope when it comes to optimization and powergaming. Creativity without a strong mechanical basis is problematic because it's not universal and it relies on your DM enabling your character, which is exactly opposite to the notions of powergaming and creating broken characters.

Example 1:

Precasting a Tiny Hut to hold a choke point is a creative use of the spell that is based on mechanics. It's not the easiest thing to pull off, but if you manage to do it, it has only one counter and that's dispel.

Having your Barbarian friend throw a rock that you enlarge midair to close off a choke point is a creative use that isn't based on mechanics. It needs skill resolutions, DM's interpretation of how these abilities would work, the DM to make a ruling about how big the stone becomes and if it's enough to close off the passage or just make it difficult terrain, or what happens if the stone is too big for the passage. It's a mess. Of course the DM can just rule that you saved the day and don't even bother with Enlarge duration, but that doesn't make Enlarge good. It just makes it good at this particular table.

Example 2:

Another common one is Conjure Animal. Some calculate velociraptor damage and declare this the best thing since sliced bread, others say that the DM will give you whatever he feels like, so this spell is just passable, and others say summon the animals on top of the BBEG, let them fall on it for whatever fall damage you can do based on your circumstances.

Finding the best animals to use is a creative use of the spell, but the mechanics hold it back. Making them fall on the enemy is even more creative but it has a stronger mechanical basis too and transforms the spell from something that may work, to something that will always work, even if the effect can be less that stellar. The best that the DM can do is either give you flying animals that you will have to command so he may mess up the initiative order and focus on them, trying to kill them. He either delays the inevitable or the summons absorb damage for the party, win win. The DM can't rule that you have to summon them on ground level without a home rule.

The key to making "broken" characters is having abilities that aren't affected by the environment, DM's judgement and encounter design.

Example 3:

Rope trick is a spell that is very controversial. People say that you can "peek out and shoot". Well, you can't just use it as total cover that you can shoot out of unless the enemy is directly under the door and that's debatable.

If you manage the logistics well, you can get out of it, shoot and get back in. Don't assume that if you have flying speed you can just enter it. The spell specifies that you climb in. While it makes sense that you can fly in, the DM can rule otherwise. Take into account this interpretation too. Also the DM can use ranged enemies who ready actions and nail you every time you get out in the open. You need to prepare for that too and don't make wild assumptions like obscurement beating ready action due to the "perceivable" wording.

If you are an Evoker wizard, who casts a sculpted sickening radiance, and then hide inside the ropetrick while your melee friends fight inside the zone, that's an almost perfect defense. Again, you can't say that this is broken, because the DM can just use ranged enemies the next time. But it's a very sound trick that will do a number to melee enemies when applicable.

If you are a summoner and use Summon Greater Demon while hiding inside the rope trick, you have more options when tackling different types of enemies, because the Demon can move and chase unlike Sickening Radiance, but of course, one Demon can't just destroy everything. It's limited by it's power level.

Example 4:

We tend to assume things like free reign, preparation time etc. These aren't a given. So you are a necromancer with hordes of skeletons at your command. You wake up in the morning, renew your control over your skeletons, and go about your business. A fateful day comes where you are the target of a Dream spell. Now your skeletons are a ticking time bomb. Hope that you will get to word your command the right way, cause worst case scenario, it's 6 seconds to kill one. You may not have enough time.

You don't need 300 Skeletons. You just need 10, spread around in lose formations, equipped with magic weapons and someone to provide advantage for them through the restrained condition or something, so they can actually deal some damage. Less conflict, less time wasted on rolling dice and resolving attacks.

noob

2021-12-22, 10:22 AM

You don't need 300 Skeletons. You just need 10, spread around in lose formations, equipped with magic weapons and someone to provide advantage for them through the restrained condition or something, so they can actually deal some damage. Less conflict, less time wasted on rolling dice and resolving attacks.
Magic weapons are far from a guarantee.
Imagine you have a party where the time the fighter had the most magical weapons it was 2: you might actually convince the fighter at most to lend you one and even then the fighter having two magical weapons over him having one and a skeleton having one might be more useful thanks to the increased polyvalence for the fighter.
To the person who made the thread:

going to die anyways, might as well be funny about it." The DM mentioned that there were mice in the forest. So, I thought, why not use them? I used magic to convince the mice to destroy the ogre's eyes. Without being able to see, I was able to defeat them by myself. It was glorious. The look on the DM's face was even more so.
That is just not how it works: if targetting eyes was that easy you would have goblins trying to stab your eyes then you would fight a bee swarm and they would try to crawl in your eyes and so on. Eyes are not normally targetable for a good reason: else adventurers would end up being blind way too often and you would have full adventuring parties of blind people until you get access to a spell to cure blindness.
You are playing with a gm that is unfair toward his monsters by making them eye stab-able while making them not try to eye stab you then the game is easy of course.

In general all you said about making a broken character could be summed up to
"Yes the trick to always win is to ask the gm to make so that all monsters cooperates in being defeated"

Phhase

2021-12-22, 11:03 AM

Magic weapons are far from a guarantee.

Which is why that described situation was hypothetical.

That is just not how it works: if targetting eyes were that easy you would have in each fight goblins trying to stab your eyes out then you would fight a bee swarm and they would try to crawl in your eyes and so on: eyes are not normally targetable for a good reason: else adventurers would end up being blind way too often and you would have full adventuring parties of blind people until you get access to a spell to cure blindness.
You are playing with a gm that is unfair toward his monsters by making them eye stab-able while making them not try to eye stab you then the game is easy of course.

In general all you said about making a broken character could be summed up to
"Yes the trick to always win is to ask the gm to make so that all monsters cooperates in being defeated"

It's true that turnabout is fair play. Personally, I'd run the mouse vs. eyes situation like a little Redwall tale - the mouse asks for a pin and needle and goes on an epic quest to see how many eyes he can put out.

Gtdead

2021-12-22, 11:07 AM

Magic weapons are far from a guarantee.
Imagine you have a party where the time the fighter had the most magical weapons it was 2: you might actually convince the fighter at most to lend you one and even then the fighter having two magical weapons over him having one and a skeleton having one might be more useful thanks to the increased polyvalence for the fighter.

Indeed, thankfully you can easily double the skeletons at these numbers. The point I tried to make is that there are situations where less is more. The less and more efficient your minions are, the more likely you are to keep them relevant. If you overdo it, you are bound to turn some heads, and then the campaign becomes about your undead army rather than the important matter at hand.

JackPhoenix

2021-12-22, 03:56 PM

Now for a few slightly more humble examples of cleverness. This one, I think,is a slightly more RAW-supported version of your trick with Firebolt. Don't forget, Prestidigitation is just a codename, the spell's real name is Least Wish! It specifically notes that you can "ignite or extinguish flames equivalent to a candle torch or campfire". I was beset by enemies using matchlock muskets. Using prestidigitation, I extinguished the match on one of their firearms, and on another turn, used it to ignite a visible powder horn on one of their persons. If the firearm was a flintlock with a visible firing pan, you could also potentially cause the gun to misfire by setting it off!

Well, if the enemies were trying to shoot you from 10' away, they were asking for it.

Phhase

2021-12-22, 04:02 PM

Well, if the enemies were trying to shoot you from 10' away, they were asking for it.

Indeed they were. They were ninjas trying to capture us, but poisoned katanas wouldn't work on my warforged.

Corran

2021-12-24, 05:42 PM

The principles behind the argument of the OP are sound. "There is no substitute for creativity, real-world intelligence, and game mastery" is a solid thesis.
Taking the time to plan (as opposed to react -even intelligently) and luck are also worth mentioning. Luck may not make much of a difference in the long run, but if you are interested in the result of a specific scenario that is only run once, then yeah, it should definitelly be factored in, in most cases.

So, here is the story of Mike the cleric (or how I started hating gnomes).

Game Mastery
This was our first campaign after having played briefly the starter set adventure. When we started the campaign Mike was away on family vacation and so he joined the game when we were a few weeks in. During that time, the closest thing he could do to gaming with us, was to read the player's handbook. Ah, the player's handbook. An object to be handled with the outmost care. Gingerly opened a few select times (usually to look at the weapon drawings before asking the DM where our characters could buy whatever looked the coolest) before putting it back in the safety of some bag or drawer. Mike's book was not in as a pristine condition as everyone else's. The cover was a slightly more bendable and some pages were holding to the book literlly by a thread, all a result of actually using the book, unlike the rest of us.

The DM had gone briefly over the player's handbook (as he was the one who had to make our characters after we had told him what each one of us wanted to play -not Mike's character, as he made his own!), but he was more interested in the MM and the DMG, naturally, and he was relieved that Mike could help with the rules when he eventually joined the game. In fact we all were. Who wanted to sit and read through some stupid rules? Mike became the rules' lawyer of the group with everyone's blessing. So he kept reading through the PHB. Combat rules, races, classes, equipment, spells, he went through the whole thing over and over again, so he could have the right answer whenever there was a question.

Mike was not even a powergamer at that point (though he later turned into a one). His character was powerful by default, because casters and 3e, but not more powerful than any default cleric. But he knew what his numerous spells could and could not do, and he knew the rules. Not only those he would share with us when a question would pop up, but also those which had not come up... yet.

Wisdom
Although I wont do justice to the campaign by putting it as simply as that, let's just say for the sake of staying on topic, that the campaign at some point took a turn for murderhoboing and for inter-party violence. PCs were murdered, schemes were constanly on the making, and sub-alliances and betrayals were giving and taking, all in the middle of still maintaining a very fragile general alliance for the greater purpose of looting and eventually for taking down the BBEG. Me and Mike were the only players using divine characters, who both happened to start as worshippers of good dieties. So, naturally, our characters fell and lost their divine powers at some point (though Mike's evildoing was more accidental than purposeful if I remember correctly, and his character was nowhere near enough the monster that most others were).

The DM informed me privately before one session of my paladin's fall. During the session, I protested heavily (didn't have much of a case, but losing powers sucked, and I couldn't just accept it without a fight). So when I did that everyoe became aware of it. The drow wizard who had a beef with me, and I with him, learnt it (and after that he was even more brazen at trying to call the shots). My neighbours probably heard it too. Mike, who had learned the same thing about his character earlier that day, was quiet like a grave. Cause he knew. That when you are among sharks, you dont let them smell the blood.

Planning
Mike's plan was simple. His character should regain is powers before anyone else found about it. His character's safety was depending on his character's usefulness, and weakness invited mockery, if not outright pc violence. He knew he couldn't hide it forever (how many excuses can you find for not healing someone, or worse, how long are your monster "allies" are going to tolerate such uncooperative behaviour before doing something about it?).

So he first figured out if that was even possible, and sure enough the DM told him about the atonement spell and what that meant in terms of roleplaying. Then Mike asked the DM if he could play private sessions, doing the attonement as a sidequest thing on his own, seperately from everyone else. This way, no one would know, and more importantly, no one would be around to kill his character while weakened. And sure enough the DM accepted that, and without revealing anything to the rest of us, he just informed us that Mike will be away for a few sessions, as his character is doing a personal quest and they would have seperate sessions. We were all very curious, but the DM didn't budge.

He took it one step further, trying to strengthen his position by finding allies. So with the DM's blessing, he invited one of the other PCs to have his new character (last one died during the previous session at a fail attempt against one of the BBEG's top minions) join his sessions with the DM. Yeah, the new PC would be a measely 2nd level character (as after every pc death, reviving the old one or bringing a new meant we were joining at one lower level than our previous pc; and that player had a few pc deaths already), but even a little help is better than nothing.

Most importantly, he chose his resting place carefuly. A second story inn that was conveniently situated close to the river that crossed the city. You see, Mike had acquired some sessions back a rind of feather falling, and he had also bought some potions of water breathing. And no one knew anything about these items. In fact, nobody knew anything about Mike's items, as he would never show his character sheet to anyone except to the DM. His resting place was also kept secret from us, though at that point this was usual practice among us. His plan was simple. If anyone found out where he was and tried to attack him, he would escape through the 2nd floor window, run to the river, drink the water breating potion and escape underwater. A simple enough plan, that in all likelihood he would never need to use, but he took the time to think of it and and he stuck to it.

The mistake that almost proved fatal
They say never to underestimate your enemies, but the opposite is true as well. Never overestimate the value of an alliance, particularly if your ally is caught up in their own affairs.

Mike tried to make allies with the new character of another player. A weak 2nd level monk, while the rest of us where at level 8 or thereabouts. A 2nd level monk is better than nothing, but you when you need to keep secrets, you need to ask yourself if that 2nd level monk can keep his mouth shut. No, he couldn't. But first, a little context.

Mike's attonement featured 3 missions, the first one being to save a unicorn that was imprisoned by some cultists, without using violence. And sure enough in the meantime the rest of the group was fighting these cultists while Mike and the monk were doing their private sessions. So the session when we would come across the imprisoned unicorn was the one when Mike's and the monk's path brought them back to playing with the rest of the group.

So we stand in front of the unicorn, cultists defeated, slain or running away. ''Ah, you shall be my new mount", my paladin proclaims to the unicorn and approaches so he can ride it. The unicorn senses evil, and resists, evetually attacing my character. I am readying to attack it back. Mike intervenes. He trips my character, and before I can understand what's going on he has disarmed me. He stats talking calmly. "I am not going to attack you, I just want you to listen. I need to save the unicorn. This is my quest. I wil not resort to violence. But if you kill it, then I will never heal you again". I am fuming, but I back down, because no healing is worse than a hurt ego.

Monk player finds me after the session. Monk player had many character deaths up to that point. First death was by two other pc's, but from then on, and the with help of the de-leveling, it was a downward spiral. He would die because he would be the one to do what everyone else didn't want to do themselves. We would see treasure at the bottom of a lake? No one wanted to go in there, so someone would tell this player's character to go and claim it for the party. And sure enough there would be some trap or monster or what have you, and his character would die, and he would join with a new one at a lower level. Rinse and repeat. Yeah, we were horrible. I wont pretend to know the psychology behind the monk's player behaviour. Maybe he was trying to appease those who kind of misstreated him so we would go easier on him. Maybe he was tring to patch things up so he wont be caught up in some crossfire and accidentally suffer a character death once again. For whatever reason, the monk player came to me and tried to justify Mike's action, saying that Mike was not trying to make enemies, but his quest was too important for him for such and such reason. He spilled the lot.

Mike had bluffed me, and that was inexcusable. He had to die. No matter the cost.

Creativity and luck
I hated the drow wizard of the group, but we had a very honest and mature conversation, that went somewhat like this. ''You hate me, I hate you, but before we try to kill each other, why dont we take out Mike? He also happens to be without powers from his god". The wizard liked killing, especially if it meant killing other pcs. So it didn't take much to convince him. He was happy to play a part in killing Mike. Only precaution he took, would be to have his quasit familiar scouting from above the area around the inn where Mike and the monk were staying, cause he was a little paranoid that this might be some sort of trap against him.

Next stop, the DM. I explain my ''masterplan". I will go upstairs in that inn at night, break down the door of their room while they sleeping, and before they know what's what, I will throw inside their room a bomb. What was the bomb? Some flasks of wine mixed with oil, which I'd light with a torch before throwing them. Then I'll set fire at the entrance of the room too, so that they cannot escape. ''And how will you fight them?", the DM asks. "Well, I wont, I was hoping for the explosion to kill them. I'll just throw the bomb and run away". The DM was entertained by the idea, and after some negotiating we agreed that the "bombs" should do as much damage as two fireballs (which was more than a decent chance at killing Mike) when it would explode, with fire damage every round after that if the room catches fire.

The drow wizard would stay hidden in some bushes just outside the inn's entrance, so he could fireball Mike or the monk should they manage to get out alive. A few things about the drow wizard player. At that point he already was considered to be the most powerful of us all. Partially because he was higher level thn everyone else (as at the time we thought that level adjustment +2 meant you get to start with two extra levels), because of playing a very powerful race, because of an almost never ending supply of fireballs (thanks to many spell slots and to wands), and also because he had become the protege of a relatively powerful DMPC. His weaknesses? Predicatbility. Fireball (I am not even joking). When that wasn't an option, he would use a mace (because that was what Sauron was using apparently). DM helped a bit here by giving him a mace of brilliance (if I recall correctly), which meant that he didn't have to beat AC to get a hit in, only 10+dex or something like that. So he wasn't usuless the rare times he would have to resort to using the mace. His other weakness? His quasit. It was the only thing his character held dear, and he was very protective of it.

Anyway, long story short, the plan starts very promisingly up to the point that the damage gets rolled. Low rolls (dice rolled in the open). Monk dropps at -8, Mike survives the blast at 2 hp. DM says that damage is too low for the room to catch on fire. Seeing that Mike is still alive I declare that my character attacks him to finish the job. DM says, ''you said you are running away, remember?". Mike screams about how did I manage to deal that much damage, I scream that the DM should let my character go back and kill Mike, the rest of the group starts screaming that the explosion should have been heard by them (mind you, they are sleeping in the other end of the city, and it's a big city), so they can join in at what's happening. The DM announces his decisions. ''You guys are too far away to have heard anything, your characters are still sleeping", he says to the rest of the group. ''You said you are running away, so you cannot go back into the room. I'll let you wait at the stairs of the inn if that's what you want", he says to me. "The damage was however much it should be, based on his contraption", he finally says to a disappointed Mike. ''I heal myself!", Mike proclaims. "There can be no healing, cause someone hasn't finished his attonement, isn't that right DM?", the drow wizard players scoffs much to the surprise of both Mike and the DM. DM reluctantly agress. He later told Mike that he would have allowed healing if he went for the downed monk first, as a cleric of Ilmater would have. I am challenging Mike to have his character leave the room, so mine can kill him at the inn stairs. A panicked Mike leaves his monk pal for dead, and puts his escape plan into action: ''I jump through the window", he says.

Screaming ensues once again at the table. "How much damage did he take? What?! He took no damage?! Why?! How?!". Remember, Mike has a ring of feather falling that no one knows about. The DM says that Mike should take no damage for the fall, and we can only learn why if Mike tells us. He told us. About 2 years later. Then the next point of argument becomes this. At which side of the building was Mike's room window? Me and the drow wizard are trying to convince the DM that Mike's bedroom window should be facing the street at the entrance of the inn. So that the drow wizard who is hiding in the bushes can fireball him when he lands. DM leaves it to the dice. And they smile on us. Mike lands at the street just outside the entrance of the inn, in clear sight of the drow wizard who was waiting hidden in the bushes.

It's the wizard's turn. But he doesn't fireball Mike. He just walks out of the bushes, and with a smile, he says to him: ''Run". For context, that how the drow wizard would kill surrendered enemies. He would tell them to run, only to fireball them when they turned their backs on him. We all knew that. 2 HP Mike runs. Towards the wizard, to everyone's surprise. ''I hug him!", he says. We start laughing. He opens his pathetic PHB and tries as quickly as he can to find the right page. ''Grappling'', he says after a while. We all hear the word for the first time. There is arguing about the rules. DM makes a decision. The drow wizard cannot move or reach for a weapon, but he could still cast spells because of a feat (that the DM had chosen for him when leveling his character; I dont think the drow wizard had even opened his PHB). And here lies the problem. The only spell the drow wizard knows is fireball. He never bothered with looking at his spells, and he never prepared a list of spells. He would just fireball, then fireball from wands when the DM would tell him he was out of slots, and use a mace when he couldn't fireball. So while grappled, his only option is to fireball, but if he does that, he will get caught in the blast. Now, I dont even know if he could deal enough damage with one fireball to get knocked below 0 hp, cause he was of a high enough level. But I am pretty sure he didn't know either. So while I was screaming at him to fireball Mike, he kept saying that he can't cause he might die too (which could be true, cause even if he was just severely wounded, I would certainly go for the kill right there and then; it was pretty rare to catch the wizard that weakened and without his guradian).

In a stroke of brilliance, the drow wizard remembers he has a quasit flying several feet above his head. So he calls it down to attack 2 HP Mike. Miss. It's Mike's turn. He lets go of the wizard and tries to grappe the quasit. Success. Then he starts running with the quasit in hands towards the river. ''Shoot him", I scream to the wizard. ''But I'll kill Darkomen", he screams back. DM has me wait at the inn stairs, while all this is going on. Mike reaches the river bank, drow wizard right behind him, waiting for a chance to fireball Mike without hurting either his quasit or himself. Mike drops the quasit, drinks his potion of water breathing, and jumps into the river. Wizard tries to follow, only to change his mind after Mike argues (with the DM agreeing), that if he does so, his spellbook will be destroyed. Mike escapes successfully.

PS: During this whole mess, the monk player was quietly rolling death saves when no one but the DM was looking. Lucky bastard not only managed to stabilize himself, but also regained consciousness and managed to flee before we remebered of him. We didn't even manage to cause some collateral damage, aside from a few slightly burned furnitures. Masterplan was a complete and utter failure.

Mike's revenge
It was several months later, while playing a follow up adventure that Mike's cleric would finally get his revenge on the drow wizard. My character had managed to get himself killed by that time, so I guess that had to do. Mike planned his character carefully. He took feats that could help him beat the drow's spell resistance and items that would raise his spell DC. He ordered a custom made scythe that could be wielded by small characters (DM couldn't think of a reason to say no). And since he was playing a good character, he then just had to wait for the drow wizard to give him an excuse. And when Mike thought he was ready, a little innocent provocation wa enough for the wizard to give him the excuse he was looking for (the provoction was to cast dancing lights at the drow's face and daze him for a couple rounds after explaining to everyone that drows are sensitive to bright lights). At which point, Mike's cleric used hold person on the wizard, beating his spell resistance and the wizard's saving throw. Then he took out the scythe, while out of character he opened his PHB at the page where coup de grace was. It was beautiful. His victory was short lived. In fact very short lived. He died two rounds later. And a few rounds after that only two wounded pcs were alive, though a purple worm was blocking the exit (it was supposed to be the final boss of that adventure), so that campaign ended there.

Conclusion
Game mastery, intelligence and creativity are important. But Mike was very lucky in some instances to make it out alive in the end. Lucky that his enemies did a number of serious mistakes, whether that was their arrogance, short sightedness or underprepearedness, or simply the dice. All his planning and creativity would not have shown up at all in that scenario if it wasn't for some good doses of luck.