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SociopathFriend
2021-12-22, 03:26 AM
So I know I asked about at least one of these before but I'm a firm believer in Wizards being able to spend downtime and gold to make up spells related to their specialization school.

As such I've made a few spells a Necromancer could use in my time and wanted to ask if any sound overly strong. 'Too weak' is not a problem since at the end of the day I'm still a Wizard- particularly a Necromancy Wizard. But if a DM allows customized spells I don't want to abuse such leniency.


Note- as these are not existing 5e spells (well, Enlarge/Reduce technically is since all the spell really does is allow upcasting it) they all need to be manually researched as if recording them from spell scrolls. They're also very much intended to be brief and pretty simple in use so as to avoid loopholes or unexpected problems.



Westflow's Enlarge/Reduce

Functions identically to Enlarge/Reduce with the caveat that casting it on Undead allows you to increase it one extra size with every two additional spell slots- gaining an extra 1d4 each time.

So regular Enlarge/Reduce = 2nd level spell slot, medium -> large, +1d4 damage

Westflow's Enlarge/Reduce can be upcast = 4th level spell slot, medium -> huge, +2d4 damage




Isaac's Seeking Shot

2nd level spell (school unknown, Evocation or Transmutation?) - action

60 foot range spell that involves a single target making Dexterity Save and it deals 2d6 Necrotic damage- a successful Save causes half damage

A failed Save inflicts full damage and any Undead under the control of the caster gains 15 feet of movement speed towards the target until the end of the target's next turn




Risen Dead's Mantle

5th level evocation spell

Functions identically to Crusader's Mantle except Radiant damage is changed to Necrotic and it's a Wizard spell and so the spell level is raised to match when a Paladin gets Crusader's Mantle




Deathly Helping Hand

3rd level conjuration spell - reaction

When hit by an Attack but before Damage is rolled- choose an Undead creature under your control within 30 feet of you and change places with it.

The Undead creature takes the same attack and appropriate damage while you remain unharmed.





Undead Vigor

1st level transmutation spell - action

When cast, this spell enables a single Undead creature under your control within 30 feet of you to make a single Attack even if it has already done so this turn.

For each spell slot above 1st used, an extra 1d6 Necrotic damage is added to this Attack if it hits





There was a 6th one but I've forgotten it. :( It's not the Bestow Curse variant because I was convinced last time that it wasn't a good idea- it had to do with Undead being buried and/or something or another...

And yes some of the names suck- I'm bad at that sort of thing.

Composer99
2021-12-22, 10:49 AM
So I know I asked about at least one of these before but I'm a firm believer in Wizards being able to spend downtime and gold to make up spells related to their specialization school.

As such I've made a few Necromancy spells in my time and wanted to ask if any sound overly strong. 'Too weak' is not a problem since at the end of the day I'm still a Wizard- particularly a Necromancy Wizard. But if a DM allows customized spells I don't want to abuse such leniency.


Note- as these are not existing 5e spells (well, Enlarge/Reduce technically is since all the spell really does is allow upcasting it) they all need to be manually researched as if recording them from spell scrolls. They're also very much intended to be brief and pretty simple in use so as to avoid loopholes or unexpected problems.

[...]

There was a 6th one but I've forgotten it. :( It's not the Bestow Curse variant because I was convinced last time that it wasn't a good idea- it had to do with Undead being buried and/or something or another...

And yes some of the names suck- I'm bad at that sort of thing.

Curious that... er, none of these are from the necromancy school of magic, then?



Westflow's Enlarge/Reduce

Functions identically to Enlarge/Reduce with the caveat that casting it on Undead allows you to increase it one extra size with every two additional spell slots- gaining an extra 1d4 each time.

So regular Enlarge/Reduce = 2nd level spell slot, medium -> large, +1d4 damage

Westflow's Enlarge/Reduce can be upcast = 4th level spell slot, medium -> huge, +2d4 damage


EN World's publishing arm EN Publishing recently released an "advanced 5th edition" which does something like this - offer rare/custom versions of existing spells. Might be worth looking into for ideas? (Forums here (https://www.enworld.org/forums/level-up-advanced-5th-edition-a5e.697/) and product website here (https://www.enworld.org/link-forums/level-up-official-website.700/).)

Anyway, this is probably fine, although kind of weird that it works only on undead.



Isaac's Seeking Shot

2nd level spell (school unknown, Evocation or Transmutation?) - action

60 foot range spell that involves a single target making Dexterity Save and it deals 2d6 Necrotic damage- a successful Save causes half damage

A failed Save inflicts full damage and any Undead under the control of the caster gains 15 feet of movement speed towards the target until the end of the target's next turn


This should probably be a necromancy spell, despite the mobility effect. 2d6 might be a bit low for damage. I wouldn't change the number of dice, but maybe the size of the die.



Risen Dead's Mantle

5th level evocation spell

Functions identically to Crusader's Mantle except Radiant damage is changed to Necrotic and it's a Wizard spell and so the spell level is raised to match when a Paladin gets Crusader's Mantle


If this is meant to bolster your undead allies, it should be a necromancy spell and I would restrict it to bolstering undead. Otherwise IMO it's kind of stepping too much on the niche of clerics and paladins.




Deathly Helping Hand

3rd level conjuration spell - reaction

When hit by an Attack but before Damage is rolled- choose an Undead creature under your control within 30 feet of you and change places with it.

The Undead creature takes the same attack and appropriate damage while you remain unharmed.


Probably fine.




Undead Vigor

1st level transmutation spell - action

When cast, this spell enables a single Undead creature under your control within 30 feet of you to make a single Attack even if it has already done so this turn.

For each spell slot above 1st used, an extra 1d6 Necrotic damage is added to this Attack if it hits


This should be a necromancy spell. I'm not sure that the "even if it has already done so this turn" clause is doing any useful work - it seems needless to me.

Also, I think this should probably be a 2nd level spell.

MrStabby
2021-12-22, 10:59 AM
Westflow's Enlarge/Reduce

Functions identically to Enlarge/Reduce with the caveat that casting it on Undead allows you to increase it one extra size with every two additional spell slots- gaining an extra 1d4 each time.

So regular Enlarge/Reduce = 2nd level spell slot, medium -> large, +1d4 damage

Westflow's Enlarge/Reduce can be upcast = 4th level spell slot, medium -> huge, +2d4 damage

Seems good - no problem with the extra use.





Isaac's Seeking Shot

2nd level spell (school unknown, Evocation or Transmutation?) - action

60 foot range spell that involves a single target making Dexterity Save and it deals 2d6 Necrotic damage- a successful Save causes half damage

A failed Save inflicts full damage and any Undead under the control of the caster gains 15 feet of movement speed towards the target until the end of the target's next turn


An increase in movement speed but only in one direction could be hard to adudicate. For example can you use the extra 15ft movement speed (30 with dash) to move towards an enemy then veer away and use your whole other movement speed in that direcion. You could maybe make it simpler to track just by letting the undead use their reacion to move up to 15ft towards the target - it eliminates book keeping and needing to remember till their turn they do that.





Risen Dead's Mantle

5th level evocation spell

Functions identically to Crusader's Mantle except Radiant damage is changed to Necrotic and it's a Wizard spell and so the spell level is raised to match when a Paladin gets Crusader's Mantle


Probably fine - honestly, I feel that this might not be an exciting use of a level 5 spell.





Deathly Helping Hand

3rd level conjuration spell - reaction

When hit by an Attack but before Damage is rolled- choose an Undead creature under your control within 30 feet of you and change places with it.

The Undead creature takes the same attack and appropriate damage while you remain unharmed.

So this is kind of odd. Mechanically it is well within the envelope of a 3rd level spell. I just don't feel the theme. Why does a conjuration spell need the target to be undead?





Undead Vigor

1st level transmutation spell - action

When cast, this spell enables a single Undead creature under your control within 30 feet of you to make a single Attack even if it has already done so this turn.

For each spell slot above 1st used, an extra 1d6 Necrotic damage is added to this Attack if it hits



This is probably a terrible, terrible spell - unless you have a really powerful undead under your control to use it with. In which case this spell is the least of your worries. This is competing with your casting a cantrip, which is very likely to a) hit more often and b) do more damage. At the very least make it a bonus action and you might want to give it another boost such as letting them use your spell attack modifiers.




There was a 6th one but I've forgotten it. :( It's not the Bestow Curse variant because I was convinced last time that it wasn't a good idea- it had to do with Undead being buried and/or something or another...

And yes some of the names suck- I'm bad at that sort of thing.


This might be worth a visit - it seems like something a necromancer might really be into.

SociopathFriend
2021-12-22, 07:03 PM
Curious that... er, none of these are from the necromancy school of magic, then?


I'm not 100% sure on where the defining line is where a spell becomes more/less Necromancy vs whatever other school it can be. If just targeting/interacting with undead = Necromancy then yeah- they're probably alk Necromancy spells.

Quoting multiple times is hard on the phone but to try and answer everything else:

The Enlarge/Reduce still works normally with a 2nd level spell slot- the upcasting is the only part restricted to Undead and that's because I like to fluff about, 'Living bodies cannot handle the strain' of being made two Sizes bigger instead of one. But I don't know if a spell can be that vague about what it works on since AFAIK 'non-living creature' isn't a very specific type.

Seeking Shot taking up the Undead's reaction to move 15 feet sounds like a good way to simplify it. Bumping it up to 2d8 shouldn't be too much of a difference.

Risen Dead's Mantle can be changed to only work on your Undead. It's not the best use of a 5th Level slot but that's where it falls unless the Undead-only restriction bumps it down to 4th.

As for Undead Vigor- nothing here is a Bonus Action because Animate Dead and Danse Macabre both are already basically required to make any use of them- and those eat your Bonus Action to command.

But also for Vigor- I'd thought to make it a Cantrip but I was worried about it being too strong since it allows a given Undead to attack twice in a round. Replacing the Undead's to-hit with your spell attack modifier sounds good.

The burying/unburying one I genuinely do not remember. It either took an existing Undead and buried them to make a 'trap' or it involved animating them enough to unbury themselves but not enough for a full reanimation once they were out.

Saelethil
2021-12-22, 07:43 PM
I'm not 100% sure on where the defining line is where a spell becomes more/less Necromancy vs whatever other school it can be. If just targeting/interacting with undead = Necromancy then yeah- they're probably alk Necromancy spells.

I would consider anything that manipulates life energy to be necromancy (and if WoTC weren’t cowards this would include healing spells) I would also put pretty much anything that deals necrotic damage in there as well.

SociopathFriend
2021-12-23, 04:07 AM
Alright so burying the Undead as a 'trap' doesn't really sound like it needs a spell. So I'm going to guess that either there was more to it and I've forgotten or that's just not the 6th spell I was thinking of.

Forced exhuming now that I think about it is likewise kinda silly given Mold Earth is a Cantrip and can do basically the same thing. This also applies to burying a Zombie and waiting for someone to walk up to it.

As such I can only shrug at what the spell probably was. The details are lost to me.



Though apart from admitting defeat via my own brain- does anyone have thoughts on creating different types of Undead via 'Create Undead'? Would simply following Challenge Ratings be okay?

For example the spell already has:
7th Level Slot = Four Ghouls (4x CR 1)
8th Level Slot = Two Ghasts or two Wights (2x CR 2 or 2x CR 3)
9th Level Slot = Two Mummies (2x CR 3)

Would it be gamebreaking to just enable it to be Undead of similar CR?
7th Level being up to four CR 1 Undead
8th Level being up to two CR 2 Undead
And 9th Level being up to two CR 3 Undead

That way you can get stuff like Ogre Zombies and Skeleton Minotaurs? You still need the right corpse but at least it'd be doable.

MrStabby
2021-12-23, 05:30 AM
Alright so burying the Undead as a 'trap' doesn't really sound like it needs a spell. So I'm going to guess that either there was more to it and I've forgotten or that's just not the 6th spell I was thinking of.

Forced exhuming now that I think about it is likewise kinda silly given Mold Earth is a Cantrip and can do basically the same thing. This also applies to burying a Zombie and waiting for someone to walk up to it.

As such I can only shrug at what the spell probably was. The details are lost to me.



Though apart from admitting defeat via my own brain- does anyone have thoughts on creating different types of Undead via 'Create Undead'? Would simply following Challenge Ratings be okay?

For example the spell already has:
7th Level Slot = Four Ghouls (4x CR 1)
8th Level Slot = Two Ghasts or two Wights (2x CR 2 or 2x CR 3)
9th Level Slot = Two Mummies (2x CR 3)

Would it be gamebreaking to just enable it to be Undead of similar CR?
7th Level being up to four CR 1 Undead
8th Level being up to two CR 2 Undead
And 9th Level being up to two CR 3 Undead

That way you can get stuff like Ogre Zombies and Skeleton Minotaurs? You still need the right corpse but at least it'd be doable.

So in principal, I think that this is fine. One thing to be aware of is that different abilities can interact with your abilities and skills and those of other party members in a way that may be very powerful. Beasts, skeletons, zombies are all quite safe in this regard as they are mostly a bag of HP. That said, the existing options do have some potential abilities that fall into that category. A ghoul's paralysing touch letting the party paladin smite down an enemy in one turn for example (and the modest to hit bonus being able to be offset by ways to give advantage). Looking through the options, I can't see anything broken but its worth a more thorough search (although shadows can be quite nasty) - also the spell wouldn't be future proof as new undead released could bend it.

As an illustration look at the challenges of Conjure Woodland Beings used for pixies - when you get tools that are more than attacks and hit points summon spells can get quite powerful.

SociopathFriend
2021-12-23, 09:07 PM
(although shadows can be quite nasty) - also the spell wouldn't be future proof as new undead released could bend it.


I'd rule the spell won't work for making incorporeal Undead. Or such a thing should be a totally separate spell as all the Create Undead examples are very physical creatures.