Manifesing without being a manifester

[Dragonsworn]

Hello everyone

Coming from this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?639478-1-20-Critical-range) I need a way to manifest a third level power while having a BAB of +5, all at ECL 5 so as to have enough room for 15 levels or Prestige Classes

I considered Ardent, but it doesn't give enough BAB. In searching I came upon Host feats from Expanded Psionics Handbook, which would be perfect since you can use psi-like and spell-like abilities for qualification purposes except they are only first level powers.....is there a way to highten those that can fit into the first 5 levels of a build with 6 feats locked?

I am trying to avoid Dragon Magazine, Bloodlines, LA buyoff and general cheesiness

[Zanos]

If you can get 5pp(kalashtar?), psychic chirugery can add a 3rd level power if you can afford to hire a psion to cast it on you.

[Analytica]

There is like a Soulknife variant that gets Hidden Talent feats, granting it more PP and 1st-level powers. Maybe that?

[mabriss lethe]

TBPH, I think you're stuck. Most, if not all the methods that would net you ML 5, BAB 5, and a 3rd level power independent of class require either a higher level or more resources than ECL 5 can bring to bear.

Kalashtar is the best choice for getting racial ML. But you also want to get Kalashtar Mindlink, which aside from increasing the number of uses of your racial PLA you get a day, it improves your ML from 1/2 to Full HD.

Aside from getting an absurdly high level telepath psion to manifest psychic chirurgery, which has a value well beyond what a level 5 character's WBL can support... ​I think the best you can do is Warforged Arm grafts, and a Power Crystal with a third level power, and that is a very janky and expensive method that probably won't pass muster with most DMs (I'm AFB and can't quote prices, but I'm pretty sure it's beyond the price a Lv 5 character could manage as well.)

The most solid method I'd usually recommend won't work within the confines you've laid out. I'd usually recommend Greater Illithid Legacy, but it really can't come on line until about 9th with just racial manifesting and feats.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There's always the phrenic template (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) with LA buyoff, if your DM considers psi-like abilities to be psionic powers. Probably the best way to do it, unless you take a couple of levels in ardent with some big ML boosters to take a 3rd level power at level 2.

[Particle_Man]

Anyway you could talk your DM into gestalt for the first five levels only?

[Rilem]

If you're actually playing this, I'm not sure even LA buyoff would work, because you have to be Level 6 to buy off the first level with a +2LA race. I think Chiurgery + enough power points is the best bet (wealth problems aside).

[Dragonsworn]

I am not actually intending to play that, not soon at least, I just want to see if it is doable. More of a thought build, a thought exercise


If you can get 5pp(kalashtar?), psychic chirugery can add a 3rd level power if you can afford to hire a psion to cast it on you.

I think Chiurgery + enough power points is the best bet (wealth problems aside).

I don't think it is possible to afford a 9th level power at ECL 5! Plus, as Zanos said, it would take already having a power point pool and thus a psionic race to pull that trick, and Human 1st level bonus feat might be needed for the build!


TBPH, I think you're stuck. Most, if not all the methods that would net you ML 5, BAB 5, and a 3rd level power independent of class require either a higher level or more resources than ECL 5 can bring to bear.

Kalashtar is the best choice for getting racial ML. But you also want to get Kalashtar Mindlink, which aside from increasing the number of uses of your racial PLA you get a day, it improves your ML from 1/2 to Full HD.

Aside from getting an absurdly high level telepath psion to manifest psychic chirurgery, which has a value well beyond what a level 5 character's WBL can support... ​I think the best you can do is Warforged Arm grafts, and a Power Crystal with a third level power, and that is a very janky and expensive method that probably won't pass muster with most DMs (I'm AFB and can't quote prices, but I'm pretty sure it's beyond the price a Lv 5 character could manage as well.)

The most solid method I'd usually recommend won't work within the confines you've laid out. I'd usually recommend Greater Illithid Legacy, but it really can't come on line until about 9th with just racial manifesting and feats.

Yeah, pretty much what you said
Not sure if your graft idea would be valid rules-wise, but I generally try to avoid using items for qualification! Also, without actually checking a book but based on the looks of it, seems expensive as well


There's always the phrenic template (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm) with LA buyoff, if your DM considers psi-like abilities to be psionic powers. Probably the best way to do it, unless you take a couple of levels in ardent with some big ML boosters to take a 3rd level power at level 2.

The Ardent trick won't work, as I also need full BAB! The template *could* be a solution, but the only power that would qualify is body adjustment which is available at 5-6 HD, and that still doesn't work as Rilem pointed out


If you're actually playing this, I'm not sure even LA buyoff would work, because you have to be Level 6 to buy off the first level with a +2LA race.


Anyway you could talk your DM into gestalt for the first five levels only?

I considered gestalt for the whole build, as it not only solves the problem, but actually makes it trivial and still leaves room for more stuff, but I first want to see if it is somewhat possible to pull the idea off

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ardents can gain powers known from the psychic chirurgery power, which, if manifested by a convert spell-to-power erudite, can grant arcane-spells-as-psionic powers. And since you can get both cleric spells (via most true dragons, if nothing else) and druid spells (via Child of Eberron archetype dragons) this way, nabbing divine power (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) wouldn't be impossible, so no matter how much native BAB you might lose, you'll still be at full BAB. Or even more than full, since BAB normally only goes up to level 20 (racial HD aside).

[Troacctid]

It can't be done within the rules.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It can't be done within the rules.I think Dragonsworn was talking about manifesting without a manifesting class?

[Particle_Man]

I considered gestalt for the whole build, as it not only solves the problem, but actually makes it trivial and still leaves room for more stuff, but I first want to see if it is somewhat possible to pull the idea off

Some DMs don’t like mixing gestalt with prestige classes but might allow a hybrid where each character level you can either gestalt two base classes, or take a single level in a prestige class.

[FauxKnee]

I am trying to avoid Dragon Magazine, Bloodlines, LA buyoff and general cheesiness


It can't be done within the rules.

I think it can be done RAW-legal, but it's definitely violating three out of your four preferences.

Dragon Magazine 319 includes information for the Dark Sun setting. The Athasian humans (page 26) have a built-in racial manifesting ability using actual PP and actual manifester level. They have +1 LA, so they'd be eligible for buyoff at ECL 3. Combined with the Heighten Power feat from the Psionics Handbook, they can manifest a 3rd-level power at ECL 5 (though they only know 1st and 2nd level powers.) It's definitely sketchy to reference a feat from the 3.0 psionics book, but since Heighten Power wasn't reprinted it should technically be legal. You can, of course, dodge that issue by learning a 3rd-level power through psychic chirurgery or something; that would be more definitively legal but equally cheesy imo.

[Anthrowhale]

If you are a level 5 Duskblade you'll have BAB+5. If you take the feats Apprentice[Spellcaster] then you can get Use Magic Device as a class skill. By level 5 you can buy a scroll of Mental Pinnacle (Sorcerer/Wizard, caster level 11) and use UMD to activate it. The check could be cheesed via Item Familiar or Dragonblood Spell-pact with a Favored Soul.

This allows you to manifest Psionic Blast, a 3rd level power, several times.

[Promethean]

I have a Solution the Technically fulfills all your requirements:


Take hidden talent and Pick Astral Construct as your power.
Take supernatural transformation(psionics) on your hidden talent ability


Now your manifester level for Hidden talent is based on your hit dice. Astral construct can be a psionic power of any level you can manifest, meaning at level 5 it's a 3rd level psionic power.

This does have Drawbacks however:


You don't actually have a psionic class, so you don't gain any powers known by advancing through a PRC
I don't believe different kinds of Manifesting don't stack for Supernatural transformation, so any kind of Manifester class you gain down the line won't stack.
Hidden talent specifically calls out that if you gain a manifester class, it essentially overwrites the feat and turns it into another power known.
This build it completely reliant on Transparency rules, so a DM can just say it doesn't work.


#1 can possibly be mitigated by psychic churgury at higher levels, but considering it's a feat rather than a class. that's a shaky assumption.

#2&#3 essentially mean you can't take Any classes that provide a manifester level or you'll stop qualifying for the PRC you want.

#4 is only avoided by being a magic mantled ardent or erudite, neither of which gain BAB at level 1.

[Ramza00]

A joke response that is not literally what you are asking for.

But the Soul Crystal 7th level Psionic power is 1 hour per ML that allows you to hold the Crystal as a non manifester and via the Crystal you can manifest the powers as if you had the PPs, a powers known, etc. Thus find a cohort pc who loves you and cast this Soul Crystal power daily plus the extend power metapsionic feat (grab it via a custom WoL) and you are in business.

A joke response for literally it fulfills your requirements and the title of the thread, but I know it is not what you need :smallbiggrin:

[daremetoidareyo]

I feel like the solution includes this: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070620

[Dragonsworn]

Thank you all for the multitude or replies during the holidays (I was away from home and didn't get a chance to check them out until now!)


Ardents can gain powers known from the psychic chirurgery power, which, if manifested by a convert spell-to-power erudite, can grant arcane-spells-as-psionic powers. And since you can get both cleric spells (via most true dragons, if nothing else) and druid spells (via Child of Eberron archetype dragons) this way, nabbing divine power (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm) wouldn't be impossible, so no matter how much native BAB you might lose, you'll still be at full BAB. Or even more than full, since BAB normally only goes up to level 20 (racial HD aside).

It can't be done within the rules.

I think Dragonsworn was talking about manifesting without a manifesting class?

If you look at the thread linked in the OP, the purpose is to have a 3rd level power and BAB +5 at ECL 5 for an X 5/Psionic Weapon Master 7/Disciple of Dispater 8 or an X 5/(Oriental Adventures) Weapon Master 7/Disciple of Dispater 8 build (still figuring that one out), so while interesting ideas your suggestions probably cannot help out


Some DMs don’t like mixing gestalt with prestige classes but might allow a hybrid where each character level you can either gestalt two base classes, or take a single level in a prestige class.

Most people I have talked with about D&D (and not necessarily played with) either don't use gestalt at all or (want to) use it for a full 20/20 build....never have I seen people mix and match it at random levels (I have seen this trick rehashed here frequently, just never in an actual game!)


I think it can be done RAW-legal, but it's definitely violating three out of your four preferences.

Dragon Magazine 319 includes information for the Dark Sun setting. The Athasian humans (page 26) have a built-in racial manifesting ability using actual PP and actual manifester level. They have +1 LA, so they'd be eligible for buyoff at ECL 3. Combined with the Heighten Power feat from the Psionics Handbook, they can manifest a 3rd-level power at ECL 5 (though they only know 1st and 2nd level powers.) It's definitely sketchy to reference a feat from the 3.0 psionics book, but since Heighten Power wasn't reprinted it should technically be legal. You can, of course, dodge that issue by learning a 3rd-level power through psychic chirurgery or something; that would be more definitively legal but equally cheesy imo.

You know, this is so far the closest I have come to making this build possible.....if all else fails, I guess this is a solid option. So, does this Human variant learn powers through leveling or do you acquire them through some other means?


If you are a level 5 Duskblade you'll have BAB+5. If you take the feats Apprentice[Spellcaster] then you can get Use Magic Device as a class skill. By level 5 you can buy a scroll of Mental Pinnacle (Sorcerer/Wizard, caster level 11) and use UMD to activate it. The check could be cheesed via Item Familiar or Dragonblood Spell-pact with a Favored Soul.

This allows you to manifest Psionic Blast, a 3rd level power, several times.

In the same venue as the above, I usually avoid qualifying via items, but this is such a headache to pull off that I might have considered it, albeit the first five levels need to provide bonus feats for the build I have in mind (link in the OP), so this won't fly either.....still, nice find!


I have a Solution the Technically fulfills all your requirements:


Take hidden talent and Pick Astral Construct as your power.
Take supernatural transformation(psionics) on your hidden talent ability


Now your manifester level for Hidden talent is based on your hit dice. Astral construct can be a psionic power of any level you can manifest, meaning at level 5 it's a 3rd level psionic power.

This does have Drawbacks however:


You don't actually have a psionic class, so you don't gain any powers known by advancing through a PRC
I don't believe different kinds of Manifesting don't stack for Supernatural transformation, so any kind of Manifester class you gain down the line won't stack.
Hidden talent specifically calls out that if you gain a manifester class, it essentially overwrites the feat and turns it into another power known.
This build it completely reliant on Transparency rules, so a DM can just say it doesn't work.


#1 can possibly be mitigated by psychic churgury at higher levels, but considering it's a feat rather than a class. that's a shaky assumption.

#2&#3 essentially mean you can't take Any classes that provide a manifester level or you'll stop qualifying for the PRC you want.

#4 is only avoided by being a magic mantled ardent or erudite, neither of which gain BAB at level 1.

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek: :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek: :smalleek:

That....is actually spot on! Needs two feats on a feat starved build, but that is not unheard of. And I only need manifesting for qualification, so I don't care about having any other manifesting abilities or classes! It can really be made to work, though I have some questions

1) I know you mentioned transparency, but is the manifesting of the psionic power you acquire through hiddden talent a psi-like ability to qualify for Supernatural Transformation (I remember several forum argument about the innateness of spellcasting and psionic manifesting, but I am not sure if such an assumption in this case would be rules-legal)?

2) Taking classes that require but do not advance manifesting (the whole point of this thread) should not invalidate qualification as per your "#2&#3", right?


A joke response that is not literally what you are asking for.

But the Soul Crystal 7th level Psionic power is 1 hour per ML that allows you to hold the Crystal as a non manifested and via the Crystal you can manifest the powers as if you had the PPs, a powers known, etc. Thus find a cohort pc who loves you and cast this Soul Crystal power daily plus the extend power metapsionic feat (grab it via a custom WoL) and you are in business.

A joke response for literally it fulfills your requirements and the title of the thread, but I know it is not what you need :smallbiggrin:

That was amusing :smalltongue::smallbiggrin::smallwink:
You know, if this was to be the build of a BBEG's henchman/trusted assassin/right hand man and access to higher level resources was obtainable some of the responses people have given would make for a killer NPC/campaign character/adversary, but for making this build a playble one...


I feel like the solution includes this: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070620

Possible, will look into it. Also, thank you for the article, it made me appreciate The Giant's work that much more (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html)

[Troacctid]

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek: :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek: :smalleek:

That....is actually spot on! Needs two feats on a feat starved build, but that is not unheard of. And I only need manifesting for qualification, so I don't care about having any other manifesting abilities or classes! It can really be made to work, though I have some questions

1) I know you mentioned transparency, but is the manifesting of the psionic power you acquire through hiddden talent a psi-like ability to qualify for Supernatural Transformation (I remember several forum argument about the innateness of spellcasting and psionic manifesting, but I am not sure if such an assumption in this case would be rules-legal)?

2) Taking classes that require but do not advance manifesting (the whole point of this thread) should not invalidate qualification as per your "#2&#3", right?
Sorry, it doesn't work. It's only a 1st level power. Having a higher CL doesn't change that.

[Promethean]

:smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek: :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek: :smalleek:

That....is actually spot on! Needs two feats on a feat starved build, but that is not unheard of. And I only need manifesting for qualification, so I don't care about having any other manifesting abilities or classes! It can really be made to work, though I have some questions

1) I know you mentioned transparency, but is the manifesting of the psionic power you acquire through hiddden talent a psi-like ability to qualify for Supernatural Transformation (I remember several forum argument about the innateness of spellcasting and psionic manifesting, but I am not sure if such an assumption in this case would be rules-legal)?

2) Taking classes that require but do not advance manifesting (the whole point of this thread) should not invalidate qualification as per your "#2&#3", right?

The ability to manifest Psionics itself relies on an At-Will Psi-like ability that is modified by other things(psionic levels, power known, feats, etc) according to RAW.

Under full transparency rules, that means that the ability to use psionics is both a Psi-like and Spell-like ability, meaning it qualifies for modification by supernatural transformation. This effect this has under raw would mean that your manifester level for psionics would be based on hit-dice rather than Psionic class level and your powers would ignore SR, but unlike normal supernatural abilities, youre psionics would still cost power points, XP, material components, etc, because those are things that modify your basic "Manifest Power" PLA(which does nothing on it's own without modification by feats and powers).

The issue is full transparency. Talk to your DM


Sorry, it doesn't work. It's only a 1st level power. Having a higher CL doesn't change that.

Yes it does. Under full transparency rules, the ML for a PLA is equal to CL.

[Troacctid]

Yes it does. Under full transparency rules, the ML for a PLA equal to CL.
Having a 1st level power with ML 5 is not the same as having a 3rd level power.

[Promethean]

Having a 1st level power with ML 5 is not the same as having a 3rd level power.

But Astral Construct specifically is able to be manifested as a power of at any level up to 9th. It wouldn't work with most powers, but it does with Astral construct specifically.

[Troacctid]

But Astral Construct specifically is able to be manifested as a power of at any level up to 9th. It wouldn't work with most powers, but it does with Astral construct specifically.
No, it only increases the level of the creature, not the level of the power.

[Promethean]

No, it only increases the level of the creature, not the level of the power.

...Okay. you're definitely right.


Augment
For every 2 additional power points you spend, the level of the astral construct increases by one.


Back to the drawing board on this then.

Anyone know of any 1st level powers that's augmented text calls out the ability to manifest as higher level powers?

[Dragonsworn]

Anyone know of any 1st level powers that's augmented text calls out the ability to manifest as higher level powers?

What about the Heighten Power feat FauxKnee mentioned?

[Promethean]

What about the Heighten Power feat FauxKnee mentioned?

That depends, do you have enough room to fit 3 feats into your build and still be able to qualify for the prestige class you want?

You're already locked into being human unless your DM signs of on letting you take flaws for extra feats Or allowing Dark Chaos shuffle on an elf.

Heighten would Technically work by raw as it very specifically calls out that it raises the level of a Power:


A heightened power has a higher psionic power level than normal (up to 9th level). Unlike other metapsionic feats, Heighten Power actually increases the effective level of the power that it modifies. All effects dependent on power level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a minor dead psionics zone or a minor globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened power costs as many power points as a power of its effective level

You'd need to talk to your DM though. At this point your build is leaning heavily into the Cheese side of things.

[Dragonsworn]

That depends, do you have enough room to fit 3 feats into your build and still be able to qualify for the prestige class you want?

You're already locked into being human unless your DM signs of on letting you take flaws for extra feats Or allowing Dark Chaos shuffle on an elf.

Heighten would Technically work by raw as it very specifically calls out that it raises the level of a Power:


You'd need to talk to your DM though. At this point your build is leaning heavily into the Cheese side of things.

Yeah, doing the math in my head this would need 9 feats in total, meaning Human with two flaws, 4 levels of Fighter, Swashbuckler for the fifth level and DCFS Weapon Finesse to a necessary feat before level 6 :smalltongue:

So yeah, a 1st level power that can be naturally augmented is needed

[On a side note, is there a less cheesy way to have that many feats that early on (9 is probably too much, but what about let's say 7? 6 seems easy)]

[Promethean]

Yeah, doing the math in my head this would need 9 feats in total, meaning Human with two flaws, 4 levels of Fighter, Swashbuckler for the fifth level and DCFS Weapon Finesse to a necessary feat before level 6 :smalltongue:

So yeah, a 1st level power that can be naturally augmented is needed

[On a side note, is there a less cheesy way to have that many feats that early on (9 is probably too much, but what about let's say 7? 6 seems easy)]

9???

Even nerfing it to 7 would require leaning into cheese and dips. Unless this is a PO build, I wouldn't recommend pursuing this.

[FauxKnee]

So, does this Human variant learn powers through leveling or do you acquire them through some other means?

They gain powers automatically as they gain levels, eventually learning one power each of levels 1-4. You can still learn them through other ways (taking psionic classes, extra power feat, psychic chirurgery, etc.)

If you are still looking for accessible sources of feats, the Fiendish Codex II describes Faustian pacts on page 23. The Pact Insidious can grant a character two extra feats of their choosing (typically in exchange for acts of substantial evil and law.) This has RP implications / plot hooks and is something you'd want to discuss with the DM explicitly. Since you're evil anyway for Disciple of Dispater, it's a possibility to consider.

I don't necessarily recommend the dark chaos feat shuffle, but if you and your DM decide that's acceptable in this context, there's another source of bonus feats available to you. Elder Evils page 10 explains that characters who worship an Elder Evil receive a bonus [Vile] feat (to shuffle into your preferred feat) at first level and every fifth level. The Disciple of Dispater class does not require you to venerate Dispater, so there's no conflict in worshiping something else instead. As with the prior topic this has plot implications and should be discussed with the DM if you're interested.

[daremetoidareyo]

There are illithid feats that add powers to your list. It’s the only way I know of to get higher level powers on a soulknife. It might work with that elan feat at the bottom of the article I sent you where you have a manifester level without a psionic class level. Then you need a way to cram 4 psionic feats into the next 4 levels of full bab, culminating in greater illithid legacy

[Dragonsworn]

There are illithid feats that add powers to your list. It’s the only way I know of to get higher level powers on a soulknife. It might work with that elan feat at the bottom of the article I sent you where you have a manifester level without a psionic class level. Then you need a way to cram 4 psionic feats into the next 4 levels of full bab, culminating in greater illithid legacy

Although ingenious, I doubt there is enough feat room in the build without major cheese