Why Do You Find High Level Play Difficult To Run?

[Sparky McDibben]

Why do you find high-level play difficult to run for?

Please include any relevant examples of times when you found high level play hard to run in 5e, what high level play means to you, and if you have personally DM'ed a high level game.

If you don't find high-level play difficult to run, why not?

Thanks!!

[PhoenixPhyre]

It doesn't pose an issue for my play style. But then again, I'm rather non-traditional, being focused much more on the world and the interactions than on the mechanical/challenge side. I expect the party to win, generally. The question is what do they win at? And what do they choose not to do? And I don't police the adventuring day even at earlier levels, calculate XP/CR, or any of that.

Just finished a 1-20 online game. The actual gameplay didn't change much, but the scale of situations increased; at level 3 they beat a threat to an outlying village, at level 7-ish a depowered threat from ancient times, threatening a small region. By level 11 they were travelling all over the world and into the planes on their own purposes.

I see T4 as a victory lap--a romp through the setting where the players get to cut loose. Weird situations, adoring fans, etc.

[J-H]

My party is currently level 16 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624426-Against-the-Idol-of-the-Sun-A-5e-high-level-campaign-log).

I feel pretty good about it overall. This is a large hexcrawl setting with plenty of pre-done content, so if they decide to randomly teleport across the map (once they capture a Helm of Teleportation) I'm prepared for that.

With a lot of overland travel, aside from some specific dungeon areas the "5-8 encounter" adventuring day doesn't happen. When they attack an enemy high temple it's full-on go nova but it's also a 10+ round battle with lots of enemies including casters and minions. For some reason the high priest of a death god casting Power Word Kill twice got them a bit scared too.

It's really hard to kill them, but them thinking they're about to die (or dying and being Revivified) is good enough.

It's fun.

[Dork_Forge]

I don't really have much of an issue with it at all, combats are still challenging/deadly and the party still have fun. I will say that the thing that gets more challenging is resource attrition without it feeling a bit grindy forcing them down a 6-8 encounter day.

[False God]

I don't. It's kinda like low-level in a lot of ways. It's either very swingy with big spells and big damage and big effects having an incredible effect on things, or it's a slog where everyone keeps barely missing each other or rolling low damage.

The fiction side is similar, IMO, either there's basically a war, which is why all these high level baddies and heroes are popping out of the woodwork, or it's essentially an "exploration" exercise trying to find at-level challenges and avoiding getting bogged down by the little stuff (as opposed to low level where you're trying to find at-level challenges and avoid getting slaughtered by powerful monsters).

Again like low-level, I find it tedious after awhile mostly. There's this happy middle area IMO between 8 and 13 where everyone can do some cool stuff, noone is going to get one-shot (unless they're terribly unlucky) and noone is going to break the game.

[stoutstien]

I don't really have a problem running it as long as the players are mostly on the same level as far as game mastery goes.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I don't really have much of an issue with it at all, combats are still challenging/deadly and the party still have fun. I will say that the thing that gets more challenging is resource attrition without it feeling a bit grindy forcing them down a 6-8 encounter day.

I'd agree with this and add that our group likes the travel and exploration part of the game, and it's a lot easier to come up with encounters in that pillar that use resources at low levels. High levels are the part of the game where I really get annoyed that there are short rest and long rest classes.

[Azuresun]

I don't really have much of an issue with it at all, combats are still challenging/deadly and the party still have fun. I will say that the thing that gets more challenging is resource attrition without it feeling a bit grindy forcing them down a 6-8 encounter day.

Obligatory reminder that the DMG does not recommend 6-8 encounters, it just suggests it as ONE example of how an adventuring day might work.

(seriously, read the section for yourself)

[Dork_Forge]

Obligatory reminder that the DMG does not recommend 6-8 encounters, it just suggests it as ONE example of how an adventuring day might work.

(seriously, read the section for yourself)

I'm aware of that, and running very difficult combats nonstop all the time to compensate for fewer encounters is not something I'm interested in.

When you get to a certain point you either need the encounters (not necessarily all combat), or you need really long, difficult combats to actually push the party's resources. There's no way around this, you either need more opportunities for resources to be spent, or greater need/deeper opportunities for them to be spent.

When you roll up a random travel encounter with a mid to high level party, unless they already did stuff in that day or will be doing stuff later, they're just going to steam roll it or get oddly bogged down by a random thing that just feels like it's there because they're high level.

I completely agree with 5eneedsdarksun on that, resource attrition gets inherently trickier the more numerous resources are. That's the whole reason the DMG guidance exists in the first place.

Context: I rarely ever do 6-8 encounter days and a lot of encounters are environmental or social, one of my parties really enjoy roleplaying, and as a result they get fewer, but significantly harder combats when it comes up.

That doesn't change the fact that it's hard to bleed the Bard/Warlock MC out of his lower level slots that inevitibily get used for Healing Word/Cure Wounds, PCs can only spend resources so quickly in any given encounter.

[Kenny_Snoggins]

High level is awesome. We are currently level 21, but from level 9-18 the campaign was very OP. 3-6 legendaries per PC, deck of many things shenanigans, it was awesome.

A lot of times the power ups came with unforseen consequences, like when I became a vampire and had to progress up the midnight aristocracy to unlock the full power of the disease, which then yeah, you're a magic item stacked full caster with multi attack, at will polymorph, spider climb etc who is pushing out 400+ dpr but then celestial, paladin orders, adventurers, you name it are coming after this legendary undead bard.

Even with all those buffs I still went to zero every other session and the rest of the party, nearly as powerful, had about 70% KIA over the course of the game. Personally I was killed 4 times but Misty Escape brought him back.

[yellowrocket]

I don't really have a problem running it as long as the players are mostly on the same level as far as game mastery goes.

This is the key to any game really isn't it? Either they all need to be the same level, or at least play the same level (aka teaching others the system) to create a unified experience. I havent played high level because none of us knew the system well enough to be comfortable playing anything far beyond level 5 at the time. We knew as a player we could have easily mastered OUR character, but no one felt comfortable dming at a decent pace those spells, effects, monsters/combats, and creating a balanced world for higher level players.

On the other hand walking new players through low levels can be like raising children. . . You can do it all for them and they might learn from watching but that risks being boring or off putting to one party or the other. Or they can learn a lot faster if you prepare them, let them take some lumps, and review what happened and why after. But it can still be difficult without balance.

[Sparky McDibben]

My party is currently level 16 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624426-Against-the-Idol-of-the-Sun-A-5e-high-level-campaign-log).

I feel pretty good about it overall. This is a large hexcrawl setting with plenty of pre-done content, so if they decide to randomly teleport across the map (once they capture a Helm of Teleportation) I'm prepared for that.

With a lot of overland travel, aside from some specific dungeon areas the "5-8 encounter" adventuring day doesn't happen. When they attack an enemy high temple it's full-on go nova but it's also a 10+ round battle with lots of enemies including casters and minions. For some reason the high priest of a death god casting Power Word Kill twice got them a bit scared too.

It's really hard to kill them, but them thinking they're about to die (or dying and being Revivified) is good enough.

It's fun.

I think that the 5-8 encounters should arise organically out of the PCs choices (which I think is what you're saying), but I'm curious about your hexcrawl comment. What hexcrawling rules are you using? Has this campaign been structured as a hexcrawl since the start?


I don't really have much of an issue with it at all, combats are still challenging/deadly and the party still have fun. I will say that the thing that gets more challenging is resource attrition without it feeling a bit grindy forcing them down a 6-8 encounter day.

It's interesting you say that. I personally didn't find attrition to be difficult. I just invented effects and monsters that attritted resources via existence. One of the ones I was proud of was the nullifier which just ate spells. No save, no check. Took the casters like three rounds to figure it out, and realize they needed to start thinking outside the box.


I don't. It's kinda like low-level in a lot of ways. It's either very swingy with big spells and big damage and big effects having an incredible effect on things, or it's a slog where everyone keeps barely missing each other or rolling low damage.

I feel like this is just D&D, though? Also, when you say, "I don't," do you mean you don't find high-level play difficult, or you don't run high-level play?


The fiction side is similar, IMO, either there's basically a war, which is why all these high level baddies and heroes are popping out of the woodwork, or it's essentially an "exploration" exercise trying to find at-level challenges and avoiding getting bogged down by the little stuff (as opposed to low level where you're trying to find at-level challenges and avoid getting slaughtered by powerful monsters).

This is a fascinating assumption. (These questions might feel sarcastic - they aren't meant to; I'm trying to get a better feel for how other DMs run their games). Why would you have characters popping out of the woodwork? Why is the "little stuff" even getting in their way, instead of running away? Why is "exploration" in quotes? Do you mean your PCs are exploring to find things they think are appropriate to their level, instead of exploring the world?


I don't really have a problem running it as long as the players are mostly on the same level as far as game mastery goes.

Are you referring to the players needing to have system mastery? I have seen this as a problem - "Know your spells" is a commonly repeated refrain at my table.


High levels are the part of the game where I really get annoyed that there are short rest and long rest classes.

Can you provide additional context? Why does this divide matter more at higher levels?


I'm aware of that, and running very difficult combats nonstop all the time to compensate for fewer encounters is not something I'm interested in.

When you get to a certain point you either need the encounters (not necessarily all combat), or you need really long, difficult combats to actually push the party's resources. There's no way around this, you either need more opportunities for resources to be spent, or greater need/deeper opportunities for them to be spent.

I agree with your first point, but I think there are plenty of opportunities to drain resources outside of combat. Also, I think there are plenty of stakes that don't rely on attrition - particularly social and exploration encounters.


When you roll up a random travel encounter with a mid to high level party, unless they already did stuff in that day or will be doing stuff later, they're just going to steam roll it or get oddly bogged down by a random thing that just feels like it's there because they're high level.

What travel structures do you use at high-level play? How do you trigger random encounters? What decision points do you present to your players?


That doesn't change the fact that it's hard to bleed the Bard/Warlock MC out of his lower level slots that inevitibily get used for Healing Word/Cure Wounds, PCs can only spend resources so quickly in any given encounter.

Oof. That's a 5e mood if ever I heard one.


This is the key to any game really isn't it? Either they all need to be the same level, or at least play the same level (aka teaching others the system) to create a unified experience. I havent played high level because none of us knew the system well enough to be comfortable playing anything far beyond level 5 at the time. We knew as a player we could have easily mastered OUR character, but no one felt comfortable dming at a decent pace those spells, effects, monsters/combats, and creating a balanced world for higher level players.

What do you mean by "a balanced world?" Do you mean that your group just keeps resetting to level 5? Are you adapting Epic 6 rules from 3.5e?

[Kane0]

I dont have much trouble, but ive seen others in my group struggle when DMing. Its the same sort of trouble as when dealing with high op players that have more system mastery than you and you werent prepared for them to be able to do X.

Coincidentally, the same look on the DMs face as when they realize they gave you a magic item that is much stronger or more useful than they originally thought.

[J-H]

I think that the 5-8 encounters should arise organically out of the PCs choices (which I think is what you're saying), but I'm curious about your hexcrawl comment. What hexcrawling rules are you using? Has this campaign been structured as a hexcrawl since the start?

I think it's explained in the thread, but each hex is pretty big (12 mi across). I take the party's highest perception, investigation, and survival rolls and add them up as a base, then they accumulate points per 2 hours spent searching the hex. The stuff that's easy to find (a tower on a mountain) takes like 80 points and something concealed could be up to about 150-160 points. On average, it's taking them 2-3 days on the calendar to explore a hex. Most hexes have only 1-2 'points of note' in them due to the amount of content. I have 15 different random encounter charts, and roll 1dx per 2 hours during the day and per 4 hours at night. Typically, on a 1 there's a random encounter... dice are usually d6s or d8s, depending on how populated a hex is. I'll usually roll a day at a time and then consolidate encounters. I'd rather the balance of table time be spent on actually moving the plot and exploration forward instead of a bunch of random Titan Snakes, Devastation Centipedes, rust monster nests, etc.

[False God]

I feel like this is just D&D, though? Also, when you say, "I don't," do you mean you don't find high-level play difficult, or you don't run high-level play?
I don't find high-level play difficult to run.
I don't feel like my description is "just D&D" though. Between about levels 6 and 13 there's a very manageble level of play where PCs and NPCs alike are neither too easy nor too hard to kill. It's kind of my "happy medium". Spells are ridiculous, damage isn't nuts, HP isn't peanuts, AC is neither unreasonably high or low.


This is a fascinating assumption. (These questions might feel sarcastic - they aren't meant to; I'm trying to get a better feel for how other DMs run their games). Why would you have characters popping out of the woodwork? Why is the "little stuff" even getting in their way, instead of running away? Why is "exploration" in quotes? Do you mean your PCs are exploring to find things they think are appropriate to their level, instead of exploring the world?
Because at high levels, like low levels, appropriate-level challenges come in two varieties (IMO) either very hard to find, or actively making waves. Think lost treasure vs a pack of wolves. But now both the hidden and the hunting are making overt efforts to conceal themselves or swing their weight around. The "little stuff" shows up because most active parties can only guess at their enemy's strengths. There's no little level-number that appears over someone's head when you right-click them. So the "little guys" still try to challenge people above their weight because they frankly can't tell.
And yes, hunting for challenges instead of more random-direction exploring at low levels. It's similar, but different.

[yellowrocket]

What do you mean by "a balanced world?" Do you mean that your group just keeps resetting to level 5? Are you adapting Epic 6 rules from 3.5e?

By balanced I wasn't referring to things not changing, but presenting an original encounter that was appropriate challenging and interesting, but also making the world capable of sustaining that change in power.

The circles a T1 character interacts in vs a T3 are very different. T1 you don't meet a major player on a global scale. T3 you're possibly setting the terms of them seeing you depending on how much longer you want the game to go. And how much power you've amassed along the way.

[KorvinStarmast]

I see T4 as a victory lap--a romp through the setting where the players get to cut loose. Weird situations, adoring fans, etc. And opportunities to allow the "I charge the demigod" player(s) to experience PC death saves and the party to have to raise dead/revivify/resurrect. Mind you, my bard does appreciate the fan base. Her next album title (the duets) will be

A Bard's Eye View
The cover art will be her flying through the air on the back of an adult Emerald dragon. :smallsmile:

[heavyfuel]

I don't find high level at all difficult to run (the math sometimes gets a bit too complex, but that's not generally an issue with 5e).

When in high levels, you don't have to hold the players' hands nearly as much as a DM.

They have to face a threat across a continent and have 72 hours to get there? In low levels, unless you fiat a way for them to get there, it's not happening. High level characters will either have the necessary magic to get there themselves, or they'll know someone who has this magic.

Combat encounters become far more forgiving and far less swingy. At low levels, a single hit (not even a crit) can turn the tide of a battle. This is definitely not so for high levels.

Generally, "high level" means you can get away with just throwing whatever at the players and they'll have the proper tools to deal with that