Hexbard

[adb82]

Hello everyone,
soon i'll start a new campaign and im curious about the hexblade, i was thinking to add some whisperer's bard (3 lv) in the build just for slots, utilities and some damage that should make feel the delay of lifedrinker less. I suppose to use a helbard and get the PAM feat. Starting stats are already rolled and are 15, 15, 14, 13, 12, 11. The most easy way to build it (assuming i dont have access to tasha's features) seem a Vhuman, 11 str, 14 dex, 16 con, 12 int, 13 wis, 16 cha, PAM as 1st feat, +2 cha at 4, +2 cha at 11, GWM at 15, assuming hexblade 5/bard 3/hexblade x. We 'll start at 5th lv so invocations will be devil sight, eldricht smite and thirsting blade, next is eldricht's mind. Do you have any suggestion about how optimize the progression of this character? Are the 3 levels of bard worth it (considering also we are a small group of 3 players with an healer and a barbarian/fighter, plus this character)? There is any other race or combination of feats and invocations that can fit better on it?

PS im also thinking to go till bard 4 for the asi and warcaster, that would allow me to booming blade as a reaction, in this case i wouldn't pick eldricht mind as next invocation.
For the spells i thought to get counterspell (not sure about it becouse of the few slots for cast it, maybe mirror image or blur are more solid option as i can cast it also with bard slots later on), darkness, misty step, armor of agathys, shield and hex...later on i think shadow moil will be my concentration spell + armor of agathys.

[Just Helping]

This should be a good mix. One thing I will say though, is if you're already considering Whispers Bard 4, I'd recommend taking that to 5 as well for the short-rest Bardic Dies as well as the 3rd level spell slots.

[adb82]

This should be a good mix. One thing I will say though, is if you're already considering Whispers Bard 4, I'd recommend taking that to 5 as well for the short-rest Bardic Dies as well as the 3rd level spell slots.

That's absolutly tempting, slots for counterspell, short rest bardic die...at the cost to see lifedrinker very late, getting warcaster at 13 and probably see GWM at 17 that is where we normally end.

[Hiro Quester]

There are many tempting ways to mix and match hexblade and bard.

Bard 1 provides low-level slots for hex and shield, as well as inspiration, and character style. Then go down to the crossroads for a hexblade deal that will bring you fame and fortune.

I’m playing a HexBlard in our upcoming game, mixing swords bard and hexblade, on a half elf, with elven accuracy, crit fishing and applying smite and sword flourishes for extra damage on crit.

The whispers bard does even better at damage on that front. I personally like the flourishes’ extra effects. Plus it fits the dashing swordsman theme I’m going for. But whispers bard fits really well with the deal with a mysterious entity theme.

Plus you get to play a hell-bard with a halberd. Lots of pun opportunities there :smallwink:

I find the hexblade side worth progressing quickly. So bard1/hexblade 4 might be a good place to start, for ASI and invocations. I’d delay progressing bard until after Hexblade 5, if Eldritch Smite is a core part of your tactics.

So maybe bard1/hexblade 5 for eldrich smite. Then back to bard for a few levels for bard 3 college, and maybe bard 4 for ASI (warcaster). Then hexblade all the way?

Bard 4’s ASI/feat costs you hexblade 17’s 9th level mystic incarnum. But that’s only at 20th level. I find a whole career (8+) of a good feat worth that cost of a spell you only get to cast in the final big boss fight, if you get that far.

The limitation of hexblade only casting a couple of spells per short rest, is compensated by bard’s arcane spellcasting. Some might lean harder on the bard side for that reason-more arcane spell versatility— especially in your party with a cleric and barbarian.

But lots of bard with a little hexblade or lots of hexblade with a little bard are both viable. You might find which you prefer to be something you work out during the campaign. After bard3/ hexblade 5, see which you want more of as you go.

[adb82]

There are many tempting ways to mix and match hexblade and bard.

Bard 1 provides low-level slots for hex and shield, as well as inspiration, and character style. Then go down to the crossroads for a hexblade deal that will bring you fame and fortune.

I’m playing a HexBlard in our upcoming game, mixing swords bard and hexblade, on a half elf, with elven accuracy, crit fishing and applying smite and sword flourishes for extra damage on crit.

The whispers bard does even better at damage on that front. I personally like the flourishes’ extra effects. Plus it fits the dashing swordsman theme I’m going for. But whispers bard fits really well with the deal with a mysterious entity theme.

Plus you get to play a hell-bard with a halberd. Lots of pun opportunities there :smallwink:

I find the hexblade side worth progressing quickly. So bard1/hexblade 4 might be a good place to start, for ASI and invocations. I’d delay progressing bard until after Hexblade 5, if Eldritch Smite is a core part of your tactics.

So maybe bard1/hexblade 5 for eldrich smite. Then back to bard for a few levels for bard 3 college, and maybe bard 4 for ASI (warcaster). Then hexblade all the way?

Bard 4’s ASI/feat costs you hexblade 17’s 9th level mystic incarnum. But that’s only at 20th level. I find a whole career (8+) of a good feat worth that cost of a spell you only get to cast in the final big boss fight, if you get that far.

The limitation of hexblade only casting a couple of spells per short rest, is compensated by bard’s arcane spellcasting. Some might lean harder on the bard side for that reason-more arcane spell versatility— especially in your party with a cleric and barbarian.

But lots of bard with a little hexblade or lots of hexblade with a little bard are both viable. You might find which you prefer to be something you work out during the campaign. After bard3/ hexblade 5, see which you want more of as you go.

Sword bard was also an option, but the fighting style don't work with polearm weapons.

About the last arcanum, it's nice to have that true polimorph or whatever else but we normally don't get till lv 20, we stop around 16/17.

About the eldricht smite, it's not mandatory, it just looks cool add it and the psichic damage both doubled on a crit with 19/20, if it happen to be an OA with BB it would be a really deadly one. Unluckly no elven accuracy with polearm lol.

I saw you would start with bard, probably for the dex saves, but is not better get the wis saves?

Edit: starting bard gives also more skills and i just realized that BB probably won't work at reach.

[adb82]

It would be also possible to go PAM with spear and shield, so the sword bard its still a valid option thanks to dueling fighting style. Also a shadow sorcerer (4 lv) can work very well problably, adding metamagic, slots for quicken BB and it probably also free 2 invocations as it dont need anymore thirsting blade and devil sight and it can probably get some spell at will or without using a spell slot, as it will need improved pact weapon.
So i actually have:

1) Hexblade/sword bard
2) Hexblade/whisperer bard
3) Hexblade/shadow sorcerer

Which one do you think is more fun and optimal to play considering i want to be in melee?

[Kenny_Snoggins]

It would be also possible to go PAM with spear and shield, so the sword bard its still a valid option thanks to dueling fighting style. Also a shadow sorcerer (4 lv) can work very well problably, adding metamagic, slots for quicken BB and it probably also free 2 invocations as it dont need anymore thirsting blade and devil sight and it can probably get some spell at will or without using a spell slot, as it will need improved pact weapon.
So i actually have:

1) Hexblade/sword bard
2) Hexblade/whisperer bard
3) Hexblade/shadow sorcerer

Which one do you think is more fun and optimal to play considering i want to be in melee?

Problem with the PAM thing would be you don't have a free hand for somatic components and you don't have a hand for your instrument to avoid the material part of spells. Maybe your DM allows you to use any focus you can attune to (so your hex weapon) to cast any spells you know, many do, but by RAW that technically not allowed AFAIK. Would be good to clarify.

Sword Bards need their BIs recharged more often than probably any type of bard, so I would definitely get to 5 before multiclassing or ots going to be a slog. And there is really no situation from a power gaming perspective when you should *not* take agonizing blast, but if that is important for some reason (IE you want to avoid it because you know you won't use the dinky little sword flourishes if you have AB EB) then okay, but that's a huge power loss for the character.

I play mainly hexbards and I can say the Devil Sight combo is overrated. Especially if you are the party face, mask of many faces is going to be a much more useful pick. If you want to fish for triple advantage crits you're much better off with Faerie Fire since it's a lower slot and can affect far more people and doesn't wipe out other party members advantage.

I think you'll be pretty disappointed with the Sword Bard DPR as you level up-- you are sacrificing the juicy bonuses of arguably the best casting class (hexbard) for multi attack (2) and a cute but pretty underpowered version of battlemaster maneuvers. If you are set on not using agonizing eldritch blast spam, honestly bard 17/ Echo Knight 3 would probably be better and more fun to play, and just use a finesse weapon, since your dex will be almost as high as your Charisma. In that case, Whispers might almost be better from a DPR perspective for the junky bardic sneak attack + action surge. But even with all that, you're still going to get trashed in DPR by a regular eloquence / lore bard 18, Hexblade 2 build, trashed like super hard.

[adb82]

Problem with the PAM thing would be you don't have a free hand for somatic components and you don't have a hand for your instrument to avoid the material part of spells. Maybe your DM allows you to use any focus you can attune to (so your hex weapon) to cast any spells you know, many do, but by RAW that technically not allowed AFAIK. Would be good to clarify.

Sword Bards need their BIs recharged more often than probably any type of bard, so I would definitely get to 5 before multiclassing or ots going to be a slog. And there is really no situation from a power gaming perspective when you should *not* take agonizing blast, but if that is important for some reason (IE you want to avoid it because you know you won't use the dinky little sword flourishes if you have AB EB) then okay, but that's a huge power loss for the character.

I play mainly hexbards and I can say the Devil Sight combo is overrated. Especially if you are the party face, mask of many faces is going to be a much more useful pick. If you want to fish for triple advantage crits you're much better off with Faerie Fire since it's a lower slot and can affect far more people and doesn't wipe out other party members advantage.

I think you'll be pretty disappointed with the Sword Bard DPR as you level up-- you are sacrificing the juicy bonuses of arguably the best casting class (hexbard) for multi attack (2) and a cute but pretty underpowered version of battlemaster maneuvers. If you are set on not using agonizing eldritch blast spam, honestly bard 17/ Echo Knight 3 would probably be better and more fun to play, and just use a finesse weapon, since your dex will be almost as high as your Charisma. In that case, Whispers might almost be better from a DPR perspective for the junky bardic sneak attack + action surge. But even with all that, you're still going to get trashed in DPR by a regular eloquence / lore bard 18, Hexblade 2 build, trashed like super hard.

My dm have no problem with that, but also becouse you could anyway get one small bell, fix it to your weapon, and use the focus you need as a warlock and/or as a bard.

Agonizing blast will be picked, just not in the first lvs as it will be only situational for this character. As i said anyway smite is not a must for me as long as there is something that make it "stronger" in melee, as what i want is a melee gish.

Devil sight/darkness combo is a huge boost if you use your object interaction for cover and uncover it (maybe using also an undead or a familiar for it), give also disadvanyage to hit you, while fearie fire is anyway a great spell, but it only gives you advantage.

Yep, probably a warlock using agoinizing blast deal more damage, but as i said im searching a viable way for use it in melee and keep having a very good dpr.

[Kenny_Snoggins]

Devil sight/darkness combo is a huge boost if you use your object interaction for cover and uncover it (maybe using also an undead or a familiar for it), give also disadvanyage to hit you, while fearie fire is anyway a great spell, but it only gives you advantage.

I find that there is a "deterrent AC" that bards, especially Hex/Lore Bards can get where when your DM knows you have cutting words/mirror image/shield/silver barbs/lucky etc that they just won't target you because they know you have some *achtuallllly* reaction or class feature you can pull out to make them whiff. So even without using the resources, just knowing you have them and *might* use them means they devote their action economy and resources toward doing damage to people who can't pull a million AC and defensive attack roll modifiers out your butt whenever you want. Also, it helps prevent blocking other casters from using sight-based magic (almost all spells) rogues from using sneak attack, barbarians from benefitting from wreckless attack etc etc like darkness does.

A sword bard on griffin with spiritual weapon and hex up could do something like 5 attacks between the two of them, and with steed spell sharing the griffin would get hex also, so you could get 2d6+5+d6, 1d8+5+d6, 2xd6+4+d6 damage on a regular combat round with a gish bard so that might have some legs if you wanted to try that.

[adb82]

I find that there is a "deterrent AC" that bards, especially Hex/Lore Bards can get where when your DM knows you have cutting words/mirror image/shield/silver barbs/lucky etc that they just won't target you because they know you have some *achtuallllly* reaction or class feature you can pull out to make them whiff. So even without using the resources, just knowing you have them and *might* use them means they devote their action economy and resources toward doing damage to people who can't pull a million AC and defensive attack roll modifiers out your butt whenever you want. Also, it helps prevent blocking other casters from using sight-based magic (almost all spells) rogues from using sneak attack, barbarians from benefitting from wreckless attack etc etc like darkness does.

That's can be true, but there are also dm that try to force you to use resources even they know they won't hit you, and it's kinda fair to do so if you have 6 encounters and 2 short rest per day. So i find that sometimes cast darkness and use devil sight it's very valuable, but i would avoid spamming it every fight, except in some dedicated builds.


A sword bard on griffin with spiritual weapon and hex up could do something like 5 attacks between the two of them, and with steed spell sharing the griffin would get hex also, so you could get 2d6+5+d6, 1d8+5+d6, 2xd6+4+d6 damage on a regular combat round with a gish bard so that might have some legs if you wanted to try that.

I dont think you can share hex with your mount, find greater steed says: "While mounted on it, you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target the mount." Hex doesn't target only you, or well, it neither targets you, so i suppose it won't work (i think RAI this rule is for sharing things like absorbing elements, mirror image, blink, cure wounds etc), and anyway if your mount is controlled it can't attack (it''s still a mount, so it follow all the rules abount mounting a creature, so it can attack only if you don't take your action, but that's of course not the way to go, you can still make it uncontrolled, but in this case you can't mount it becouse it won't share your initiative, so no spell's sharing), and we are anyway talking about a 4th lv spell, that you can get with bard at lv 10 (if you don't dip any other class) becouse at lv 6 with "additional magic secrets" you don't have a 4th lv slot. Probably its a bit late for see the build work. Honestly, i think this spell is for fly and have great mobility, that makes already it a great spell, but i would not recomend to use the mount for attacks or deal damage.

Edit: the spell's description says that "you control the mount in combat", so that's mean to me: you can't use it uncontrolled (at least not in combat), but even you have a dm that allows it it's anyway true what i writed above.

[adb82]

I'm actually wondering how bad could be an hexblade 5/paladin 2/whispers bard x considering we start at lv 5.

Stat would be with an half elf 13 str, 11 dex, 16 con, 12 int, 16 wis, 16 cha, +2 cha @4, elven accuracy @11, +2 cha @15

Many way to get easy triple advantage (only 1 attack adding booming blade will be enough i suppose and i can get improved pact weapon, smites and eldricht mind as invocations), triple smites, counterspell + jack of all trades (with bard's slots from lv 11), shadow blade and shield, heavy armors, cha for hit, short rest 19/20 crit and damage boost, many nice bard's spell.

It's true that the build seem go online at lv 10 when i reach whispers bard, but i think i get good boost every lv till there, so probably it won't hurt that hard, what hurt more seem be the feats progression of course.

What do you think about it? It could work? Do you think is better get elven accuracy at lv 4 or later? How would you take the lv progression? The stats i put above it's of course starting with 1 lv of paladin for the heavy armors, but we can switch dex and wis and start with 5 lv hexblade for exemple...

[Hael]

I'm actually wondering how bad could be an hexblade 5/paladin 2/whispers bard x considering we start at lv 5.
.

Hexblade 5 isnt doing anything for you. Hexbard splits are usually hexblade 1 (single weapon like a spear, take agonizing blast as a feat and keep your spell progression), hexblade 2 (2 invocations, often agonizing blast and repelling blast for ok scaling dpr and control), hexblade 3 (2 handed weapon or xbows etc).

The problem with hexblade 3 is that its feat intensive, with heavy spell progression delays, and it takes a long time to come online. You would only ever take this with sword or valor weapon bards. Whispers doesn’t really synergize well here.

The normal whisper/paladin/hexblade build is pal 2/hex1/whisperX. You give up on extra attack, but you make up for it in nova and you will have far better spells sooner, and the spells more than make up for the sustain loss.

If you want a more melee gish build then something like pal6, hex 1-3 (1h or 2h), whisper X is cleaner and gives you much better defense early on.

[adb82]

Hexblade 5 isnt doing anything for you. Hexbard splits are usually hexblade 1 (single weapon like a spear, take agonizing blast as a feat and keep your spell progression), hexblade 2 (2 invocations, often agonizing blast and repelling blast for ok scaling dpr and control), hexblade 3 (2 handed weapon or xbows etc).

The problem with hexblade 3 is that its feat intensive, with heavy spell progression delays, and it takes a long time to come online. You would only ever take this with sword or valor weapon bards. Whispers doesnÂ’t really synergize well here.

The normal whisper/paladin/hexblade build is pal 2/hex1/whisperX. You give up on extra attack, but you make up for it in nova and you will have far better spells sooner, and the spells more than make up for the sustain loss.

If you want a more melee gish build then something like pal6, hex 1-3 (1h or 2h), whisper X is cleaner and gives you much better defense early on.

Hexblade 5 gives me counterspell much earlier than the heavy paladin build, 2 more 3rd lv smites that stack with divine smite, an asi 3 lv before the pal 2/hex 1/whisper x (and one more attack), shadow blade, blink, so it's not really nothing, but i see your point and it's not wrong, as it gonna have few slots for counterspell till lv 11. Pal 6 was something i was thinking about, would be nice to reach hex 3 for eldricht mind and shadow blade, and as capstone he get even simulacrum with magical secrets lol, unluckly it can't counterspell, and counterspell have a great sinergy with jack of all trades.