Questions about Spheres of Power and Might

[MicHag]

My party has been playing 3.5 for ages. Because we have played it for so long we sometimes have campaigns where the rule to create a character is changed a little, or very much, mostly homebrew. To spice things up a little for my next campaign i am thinking about using Spheres of Might and Power. I have only just started reading up about Spheres of Power, haven't even started on Might. But i already have a few questions:

1. Is the Spheres system more balanced than 3.5 normally is? It seems it is. And is the combination of the two (Power and Might) especially balanced?
2. Are there certain things to look out for in the Spheres system that makes characters unbalanced (too weak or strong)
3. I assume the Sphere classes only replace the abilities from the base class in what is specifically mentioned?
4. The Sphere Sorcerer mentions Bloodline Arcana, is this the Bloodline Power?
5. If so, that means the Sphere Sorcerer has no base abilities left and is purely Sphere-based, right?
6. Would allowing only Sphere-Sorcerer for the Spheres of Power allow to little diversity for the players?
7. I noticed the Casting Traditions sometimes has just drawbacks and no boons, are they balanced?
8. Are there Sphere-specific feats?
9. Can metamagic feats still be applied to Sphere spells? Do they give problems?

[Kitsuneymg]

Based on some questions, I don’t know if you have a link to the wiki. http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/


1. Is the Spheres system more balanced than 3.5 normally is? It seems it is. And is the combination of the two (Power and Might) especially balanced?

Yes. Spheres-only generally caps at “tier 3”. Some builds (minionmancy) may be able to go higher, but the way you are forced to focus generally means you’re going to be tier 4. Some flexible full casters can hit 3. I guess technically a very focused character could technically reach 2 (in that they can solve encounters where their trick works with a single ability). But it’s very very hard to do that with spheres and absolutely requires advanced talents which require GM permission anyway.

The flip side is that many mid level abilities can be had at level 1. Warp in particular trivializes some low level encounter design.

Spheres of might is much less powerful than sop. There are some barrage builds (inquisitor based) that can do more damage than regular PF, but most SoM characters do less damage than PF full attack builds. They just have more options.


2. Are there certain things to look out for in the Spheres system that makes characters unbalanced (too weak or strong)

Specialization is power. Characters can get a lot of specialization in spheres. But the only problems tend to come from minionmancy (mind, conjuration, death, leadership, beastmastery) or from advanced talents. I suggest allowing advanced talents only after you’ve considered their impact on the game. Hypervitalize trivializes damage, for example.

If nigh infinite healing is a problem for you, ditch the scholar class.

Ditch the sage. It’s broken.


3. I assume the Sphere classes only replace the abilities from the base class in what is specifically mentioned?

Like any archetype. I suggest adding orisons/cantrips to the spells replacement lines. They sometimes forget to do that.


4. The Sphere Sorcerer mentions Bloodline Arcana, is this the Bloodline Power?

No. It’s the bloodline arcana. Each bloodline has powers, spells, feats, and an arcana. Half orc arcana is +1 damage/die, for example.


5. If so, that means the Sphere Sorcerer has no base abilities left and is purely Sphere-based, right?

They still get bloodline powers and feats.


6. Would allowing only Sphere-Sorcerer for the Spheres of Power allow to little diversity for the players?

The vanilla sphere sorcerer is the most boring full caster sphere class, IMO. I also consider it the weakest full caster.


7. I noticed the Casting Traditions sometimes has just drawbacks and no boons, are they balanced?

You get extra spell points when you have drawbacks without boons. They are generally decently balanced, especially if you vet them first *and* remember what the drawbacks do. Magical signs means no spellcraft to know what sphere is being used, breaking stealth, and generally removes the ability to ever cast without drawing attention.


8. Are there Sphere-specific feats?

Hundreds.


9. Can metamagic feats still be applied to Sphere spells? Do they give problems?

Yes. It’s in the metamagic feat section of the wiki.

Kinda. The main issue with SoP is that save DCs are very high. All DCs are as high as the highest level spell a sorcerer can cast. And MM in spheres costa more sp, but doesn’t reduce the save DC like it does for vancian casters. So a dazing fireball is DC 13+stat from a 6th level slot (normally 16+stat, so -3 to save DC) whereas a dazing explosive orb at CL 12 is dc 16+stat. The same as any other spell.

Originally there was an explicit list of metamagic allowed in SoP and dazing was not on it. I suggest deciding if you want the more powerful metamagic in your game.

There’s tenebrious spell too. It’s stupid because it’s basically free CL.

[Sneak Dog]

Previous poster made good points.

I'd say it's more balanced, but it's still Pathfinder and there's plenty of ways to break things still. However, unlike in Pathfinder you can play cool flashy martials alongside casters. They're both good, and both get to do neat things.
(The sage class is OP.)

Don't count out the Spheres classes either. There are a lot of archetypes available for existing classes, but the Spheres classes are solid. Conscript and incanter are relatively simple bases that just get a ton of talents to explore the systems with.

These four pages are going to be excellent pages for starting out. The 'using' pages explain the rules under which the systems operate, and the 'how to' pages have nice tables with short descriptions of the various spheres.
http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/using-spheres-of-might
http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/how-to-build-a-practitioner

http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/using-spheres-of-power
http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/how-to-build-a-spherecaster

[StSword]

Some things to keep in mind- spheres should be relatively easy to add to any class you want.

And the traditions allow you to change how you want them to work- Lovecraftian ritual magic, comic book style superpowers, mad science inventions, infection by alien nanites, spirit summoning, psychic powers, supernatural martial arts, rune carving, it can be anything you want.

[MicHag]

Thanks for the responses so far.

I just build a quick preview of a 6th level Sphere Sorcerer with 20 Charisma and Sorcerer Casting Tradition.
I pick a random Bloodline, but trade the Arcana for Destruction Focus.
Besides that i have another 8 talents and 21 spell points

I pick just two talents within Destruction for now:
- Searing Blast
- Gather Energy

If i am correct i can now cast at-will (aka for 0 Spell Points):
Standard Action: 4d8 fire as a 40ft ranged touch attack
Full-round Action: 7d8 fire as a 40ft ranged touch attack

This already seems quite powerful to me, and it's practically an at-will Scorching Ray, but in most ways much better than that.
After this you can make it worse with even more talents giving free bonuses (Extended Range for example) and i haven't even looked at the feats yet, but it seems with Maximize Spell you can nova quite hard. I find it odd that i see no cap yet, which is there in 3.5 because you can't cast a Maximized Scorching Ray in a normal situation until you get 5th level spell slots.

I understand this is "just damage", but i don't think it would be as easy in 3.5 to get to this kind of damage output. It is possible, but you'd need more optimization for that.
Now this isn't a problem per se if the Spheres of Might allow for the same easy damage output. And i haven't looked at Spheres of Might yet.
Also it seems i would need to adjust CR, because it seems the overall power level is higher than usual in 3.5 when using just decent optimization.

Questions:
10. Am i wrong that the damage output is quite easily quite high?
11. Is the damage output from Sphere of Might characters on par?
12. Is the power of the characters generally stronger?

[vasilidor]

Thanks for the responses so far.

I just build a quick preview of a 6th level Sphere Sorcerer with 20 Charisma and Sorcerer Casting Tradition.
I pick a random Bloodline, but trade the Arcana for Destruction Focus.
Besides that i have another 8 talents and 21 spell points

I pick just two talents within Destruction for now:
- Searing Blast
- Gather Energy

If i am correct i can now cast at-will (aka for 0 Spell Points):
Standard Action: 4d8 fire as a 40ft ranged touch attack
Full-round Action: 7d8 fire as a 40ft ranged touch attack

This already seems quite powerful to me, and it's practically an at-will Scorching Ray, but in most ways much better than that.
After this you can make it worse with even more talents giving free bonuses (Extended Range for example) and i haven't even looked at the feats yet, but it seems with Maximize Spell you can nova quite hard. I find it odd that i see no cap yet, which is there in 3.5 because you can't cast a Maximized Scorching Ray in a normal situation until you get 5th level spell slots.

I understand this is "just damage", but i don't think it would be as easy in 3.5 to get to this kind of damage output. It is possible, but you'd need more optimization for that.
Now this isn't a problem per se if the Spheres of Might allow for the same easy damage output. And i haven't looked at Spheres of Might yet.
Also it seems i would need to adjust CR, because it seems the overall power level is higher than usual in 3.5 when using just decent optimization.

Questions:
10. Am i wrong that the damage output is quite easily quite high?
11. Is the damage output from Sphere of Might characters on par?
12. Is the power of the characters generally stronger?

in answer to 10 & 11, you have the damage amount correct, but the fighter is doing two attacks that deal an average of 22 (great sword +1, 18 strength, power attack) damage when they hit and your big attack deals an average of 32 damage. or the fighter can do a vital strike and combine a sphere of might effect with one attack, like the duelist sphere, and inflict 29 damage and 2 points of bleed.
so I would say that what the fighter can do with spheres of might is on par with the sorcerer.
In answer to 12 I would say that no, a sphere caster is not going to be stronger than a regular spell caster unless we only focus on blasting capabilities. Advanced talents can bring a sphere caster on par with a regular caster in some areas but you get a limited amount of talents on your character. Yes I am aware that a Incanter can get up to 53 magical talents If they spend literally every feat on getting more magical talents and they are a human with a bonus feat, but at that point they still do not approach the versatility that a regular wizard can achieve with just what is in the core rule book.

[vasilidor]

Looking over the Sage, how OP it is is dependent on the abilities chosen. Yes it is a class you can break the game on accident with, but the flip side is if the person does not know what they are doing and plays wrong or picks the wrong abilities they are going to have a hard time. it is has a high floor and low ceiling in terms of in game power.

[Kitsuneymg]

Thanks for the responses so far.

I just build a quick preview of a 6th level Sphere Sorcerer with 20 Charisma and Sorcerer Casting Tradition.
I pick a random Bloodline, but trade the Arcana for Destruction Focus.
Besides that i have another 8 talents and 21 spell points

I pick just two talents within Destruction for now:
- Searing Blast
- Gather Energy

If i am correct i can now cast at-will (aka for 0 Spell Points):
Standard Action: 4d8 fire as a 40ft ranged touch attack
Full-round Action: 7d8 fire as a 40ft ranged touch attack

This already seems quite powerful to me, and it's practically an at-will Scorching Ray, but in most ways much better than that.
After this you can make it worse with even more talents giving free bonuses (Extended Range for example) and i haven't even looked at the feats yet, but it seems with Maximize Spell you can nova quite hard. I find it odd that i see no cap yet, which is there in 3.5 because you can't cast a Maximized Scorching Ray in a normal situation until you get 5th level spell slots.

I understand this is "just damage", but i don't think it would be as easy in 3.5 to get to this kind of damage output. It is possible, but you'd need more optimization for that.
Now this isn't a problem per se if the Spheres of Might allow for the same easy damage output. And i haven't looked at Spheres of Might yet.
Also it seems i would need to adjust CR, because it seems the overall power level is higher than usual in 3.5 when using just decent optimization.

Questions:
10. Am i wrong that the damage output is quite easily quite high?
11. Is the damage output from Sphere of Might characters on par?
12. Is the power of the characters generally stronger?

Spheres is a *pathfinder* supplement. Not 3.5. All pathfinder characters are more powerful than their 3.5 versions. By at least +1 CR.

10. Blasting in spheres is generally easier to make good than blasting in 3.5. But 7d8 damage is 32 fire damage on average. Which is enough to pseudo-reliably one-shot CR 3s(in pathfinder!) Add in primal blast and nature-fire to add charisma to damage, and it’s just a smudge under average CR 4 hp. Without advanced talents, fire resistance 5 and 10 will eat into that. A +1 destruction staff will add another 4.5 damage (1d8) to full round attack as well. A +1 staff and primal blast puts you right at 41 dpr

11. It depends.

Most SoM characters still do more damage with full attacks than with attack actions, with the attack actions giving them more options other than damage.

A 6th level som user could easily do something like a dirty trick to blind, get a free attack on success, use that attack to trip, and then get an AoO against the downed foe. Only 1 damaging attack, but stacking prone, blind, and battered means that the damage really wasn’t the draw.

A butchering axe wielding berserker can wield an oversized weapon and using vital strike to make standard action 8d6+12+1.5 strength (average 40+1.5 strength) attacks at 6th level as well. But vs AC instead of touch. Without power attack.

An inquisitor with barrage and alchemy can easily bane, alchemical coat, and use their enhanced bow to barrage and split shot 4 attacks. Depending on other buffs, that may be a flurry of misses or 4 hits. Each with 4d6+~level damage added to whatever the base was.

12. It depends on what you compare. Bad strategies (blaster, dagger thrower, TWF) get a fairly good boost by eliminating gatekeeping feats and making it less costly to get online. But SoM interacts primarily with the attack action, not the full attack action. And almost all your full attacks have higher average DPR than whatever a sphere character can dish out. So for peak damage, look mostly at what your martial do in a slug fest. Where SoM starts to give you GM headaches, is when you rely on a lack of mobility to hamstring characters.

If your group makes use of travel devotion and cloistered cleric dips or spirit lion totem barbarians as the basis for your martial might, especially if you toss shock trooper and 3.5 power attack on that, then spheres will do drastically *less* damage. If your martial builds more closely resemble Paizo/WotC module fighter builds, SoM will be a leg up IMO.

Just remember: pathfinder is the baseline for Spheres, and pathfinder character are generally more powerful than their 3.5 counterparts.