What classes makes you want to stay the course?

[Mastikator]

And by "stay the course" I mean don't multiclass. Assume the scenario that you're playing from tier 1 to tier 4 with a single character, what class is the most likely to make you want to stay single classed all the way through. And what class is most likely to make you want to multiclass?

Some classes feel hard to multiclass out of because the next level you're getting this cool new thing. For me I really feel this way about the artificer, it's good stuff all the way up to the capstone with practically no weak level ups.

[Valmark]

Mmm... I'd say that aside from the warlock no class makes me want to multiclass. They have varying levels of power, but pretty much all of them I like (subclasses may change this)- warlocks instead I can't see myself taking past level 12 if melee with weapons, probably 10 or at 11 for non-melee.

[Captain Panda]

Mmm... I'd say that aside from the warlock no class makes me want to multiclass. They have varying levels of power, but pretty much all of them I like (subclasses may change this)- warlocks instead I can't see myself taking past level 12 if melee with weapons, probably 10 or at 11 for non-melee.

As a moon druid, that final juicy nugget at 20 is worth resisting the temptation to take barbarian levels.

As a bard? Nothing makes me want to stay the course. Their 20 feature sucks, and hell, it's even on-theme! Bards are supposed to be versatile, multiclassing makes total sense. :smallbiggrin:

[Aalbatr0ss]

Same here. I have been playing an artificer armorer up to 9th level now. I had been planning to take a few levels, then switch to wizard. I just can’t do it. There’s no point where it makes sense to stop. Part of this is I’m playing in a large party and in a game with down time, so the crafting/tools stuff comes into play more than I expected from other campaigns. Levels 11/12 are take or leave, but greater invisibility at 13 and all the good stuff at 14/15 means I don’t think I can justify jumping off artificer.

[Dualight]

For me, it's druid and paladin.
Paladin, due to the few times that there is a single level that doesn't feel too good to pass up, the level immediately after gives something great (for example, Aura of Courage at 10th is kind of boring, but Improved Divine Smite is very tempting).
Druid, since, if you can go all the way to 20th, Archdruid is such a ridiculous capstone that it is worth not multiclassing.
Meanwhile rogue, bard and sorcerer scream for a small dip in anything, as they have a very dull capstone.
(I actually have a rogue planned out for a 1-20 campaign who takes dragon sorc. at 2nd, and the benefits of the dip weigh up against staying rogue at all levels past 2nd, and even that is due to the main combo not kicking in immediately, much like many single class characters do not kick into high gear until they get their subclass.)

[icedraikon]

Personally, Genie Warlock. Bonus action no concentration fly + hover at 6th, Sanctuary Vessel at 10th to bring the entire party into your vessel, Limited Wish at 14th and actual Wish at 17th. Granted 18th-20th are not exactly the greatest, but 1-17 is filled with goodies.

[Angelalex242]

Paladins tend to have those beautiful capstones at level 20, and they basically amount to different flavors of, "And then I go Super Saiyan!"

[Khrysaes]

I personally dont like most things in ranger after level 9 so that is as high as i would really go.

I think druid or cleric would be what i would consider taking to 20. Maybe paladin.

[Salmon343]

I've been multiclassing Paladin a few times (Paladin 6 Warlock X, Paladin 2 Sorcerer X) and every time I feel like I could do with a few more levels Paladin. I think my next Paladin levelled thing might just go the whole hog, Paladin levels are seriously addictive.

Haven't yet played one myself (other than making player assisting NPCs that I let them control in battle), but Artificer also seems like something I'd want to go the whole way for. Their infusions scale in a way that feels natural to any concept with Artificer levels, and their capstone looks amazing. I don't anticipate ever getting there in a campaign, but just knowing that it's a missed opportunity would hurt.

[Lokishade]

If I multiclass, chances are that I'm gonna pick Fighter for con proficiencies and heavy armor and then go Wizard for the fun of using close range spells.

But if I take Fighter because I want to play a martial, I'm gonna stay the course. With all those feats, I can do anything, up to casting magic (through Ritual Caster).

Warlock is another dippable class, but I have a character concept that makes me want to stay the course with Hexblade through the power of RP.

[MrStabby]

So broadly to stick in till T4, if not right to the end of T4...

1) Wizard. So many good high level spells doing cool and unique things.
2) Paladin. Lots of goodies all the way in and being a bit MAD skipping out on ASIs hurts
3) Bard. Probably to level 18. Picking up wish is important.
4) Sorcerer. Especially now with aberant mind/clockwork sorcerers you can take a few choices for higher level spells lots of good options
5) Monk. If I am playing monk then it is with a DM where monks work. Getting more of that sweet Ki is so important and making a beeline for that Diamond Soul is also really nice. Whist technically I might take a multiclass level or two before T4 I think I would still hit level 17 in monk
6) Artificer. There is always something more to atune, to infuse to cast or to upgrade. This one is kind of a cheat as I probably wouldn't play it yet (still waiting for the subclass that works for me). I suppose its more a judgement thing that I can see why others do.

[Kane0]

Most classes. I do tend to be tempted to MC out Barb, Rogue and Pally rather frequently though.

[LudicSavant]

And by "stay the course" I mean don't multiclass. Assume the scenario that you're playing from tier 1 to tier 4 with a single character, what class is the most likely to make you want to stay single classed all the way through. And what class is most likely to make you want to multiclass?

Some classes feel hard to multiclass out of because the next level you're getting this cool new thing. For me I really feel this way about the artificer, it's good stuff all the way up to the capstone with practically no weak level ups.

Full casters need a lot of incentive in order to multiclass, since caster progression is precious.

One of the greatest attractions for multiclassing a full caster is grabbing a 1-level armor dip (that comes with some other nice features besides), and that simply doesn't apply to Cleric. Add to that features that scale with class level, an increasingly good high level spell list (especially since Tasha's) and a solid capstone.

[Angelalex242]

Most classes. I do tend to be tempted to MC out Barb, Rogue and Pally rather frequently though.

Try Pal 20 sometime. You won't be disappointed.

[Segev]

Illusionist wizard 20, Now that Eldritch Adept can get you Misty Visions, is very tempting.

[JellyPooga]

Rogue is my answer for both questions.

More than any other class, for me, the Rogue has the most satisfying progression of abilities from 1st all the way to 20th. No big dips or spikes in power to throw off the curve and each Tier of play (bar 4th) showcases a new aspect of the Rogue playstyle:
Tier 1: Expertise and Cunning Action exemplify the Rogues opportunistic playstyle and remain relevant for the entire game.
Tier 2: Uncanny Dodge and Evasion are all about tenacity. Nothing can lay a hand on you.
Tier 3: Reliable Talent is the star here, really cementing the Rogue as the skill expert.
Tier 4: This tier is the least unique for the core chassis; features mostly build upon existing themes to elevate the character to the highest tier of play.

This is without considering Rogue Archetypes, all of which have a play-defining feature at 17th, making Tier 4 worthy.

The Rogue is also a Class that almost any other Class benefits from dipping into. Adding Expertise and Cunning Action to almost any build can be incredibly valuable and it comes with some bonus damage too. What's not to like? So in a backwards way, Rogue is also the Class most likely to inspire me to multiclass out of a different Class.

Most spellcasters have me bored by about level 7. I know what spells do and it's not that exciting for me to be able to push a button and see the expected result. I typically start looking for more interesting activites than just getting bigger and badder spells after that point. Bards get an exemption here because they have a diverse suite of other features to keep them engaging.

[stoutstien]

Artificer is probably the one class that has the right mix of milestones and a nice enough capstone to round it off to max multi-classing a steep enough cost to prevent me from considering it.

Some classes have a great capstone but too many levels of nothing to make the worthwhile and others have capstones that are noticably weaker than one level dips so why not if the option is available.

[Amnestic]

I find it hard to stick with:
Fighter (after 11/12), Barbarian (after 10th-12th), Monk (after 14th) and Ranger (after 11th or 15th, depending on subclass features).

Notably only one of those has innate casting not from a subclass.

Sorcerer I would usually consider dipping out of for 1-2 levels but other fullcasters I'd be generally happy to stick with for the full 20.

No problems keeping up with 20 for any other classes, even rogue. I think it's got enough tricks of the trade to keep me there.

[Ir0ns0ul]

Clerics and Paladins for sure. Wizards and Sorcerers to a lesser degree, because one level dips are great for them.

I would say Rangers as well, I usually multiclass after level 8 or 9, but most games I play don’t last that long.

[solidork]

Right now I'm playing an Artificer, and it's tempting to multiclass into War Wizard because theres a good in character justification (theres a wizard I could train with) and it would be pretty strong but ultimately I don't think I'm going to because the artificer stuff is just too good.

[tokek]

Mmm... I'd say that aside from the warlock no class makes me want to multiclass. They have varying levels of power, but pretty much all of them I like (subclasses may change this)- warlocks instead I can't see myself taking past level 12 if melee with weapons, probably 10 or at 11 for non-melee.

I loved playing pure warlock to 17 and getting that sweet 9th level spell felt like a huge reward for doing so. True Polymorph is probably the best option for a non-genie warlock as its such a flexible spell.

Admittedly I saw no real reason to continue to 20, the capstone is terrible so I switched into 3 levels of sorcerer.

[loki_ragnarock]

Monk, Cleric, Druid, Bard

Paladin is nice, but multi-classes too easily with full casters thanks to the mechanics of smite. Fighter gets a little bit blah come tier 4; extra attack (4) should have really hit four levels earlier and they should have gotten a real capstone. Rogue can bring color and mobility to basically any other class; I could do maintain but the temptation is too high when they give alot of classes exactly what they need. Barbarian gets wonky in the second half after being very good in the first half. Sorcerer doesn't know enough spells to justify the class by itself. Ranger's desperately need spells unique to the class for the back half that are actually good - like "holy cow, how did that pass playtest" good - seeing as how it's the only meaningful thing they get in the back half. Artificers have so many system mastery based moving parts that they make me want to avoid them entirely.
Warlock's spell slot restrictions are a turn off in the first half, and then they get a wonky substitution for spell casting higher level spells in the back half; it makes it easy not to multiclass in some ways, as the spellcasting mechanics don't stack, but things like hexblade are so absurdly frontloaded that I don't see why you wouldn't move on immediately.

Monks don't play well with multiclass in any meaningful sense. Dex leads to rogue, but it adds less to a mobile monk. Wis leads to clerics or druids who don't interface with the martial side of things much. And they are super dependent on class level for class features.
Clerics have enough stuff going on that you can pretty much play what you're going for just by picking the right domain. While an individual cleric isn't that versatile, clerics as a whole are able to cover a broad range.
Druids are like the opposite of clerics; they pigeon hole into a niche so hard that there's no reason to look outside it if it's the niche you want.
Bards can do anything - not quite everything, just anything - and I like that.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Cleric seems to be sticking in my mind on this one. I suppose Druid is in the same boat, but I'm not a druid fan. Many of the other caster classes benefit from a one level dip for armor. Martials can mix and match pretty easily with a bit of thought. Cleric it seems like the core chassis is so strong, and there is good variation in the flavor of subclasses that I could play a number of them without feeling like I'd done it before.

[TyGuy]

Paladin would be difficult for me to dip out of.
Ranger would be difficult for me to stick with.
Ironic that they're both half casters, but they're designed so differently.

[SociopathFriend]

While I often DO multiclass from Cleric, Fighter, and Paladin- those are also the three classes I'm most willing to stay as solo runs as well.

I think I would do the same as Sorcerer and Druid but I've not played a Druid yet in 5e and every Sorcerer run I attempt falls short almost immediately for some reason or another.

For Fighter it's mainly because whenever I play a Fighter, regardless of subclass, I feel my role is to become THE weapon guy that walks into a fight and lays the smackdown with the most attacks possible and demonstrate martial might. Whether that smackdown includes Maneuvers, Magic, or something else varies by character.


Similar is the Paladin. My job is to walk up to an enemy and Smite his bum good. As an added benefit I like Devotion and Ancients Paladin Oaths- meaning I have very nice auras to spread amongst my allies that I need lots of Levels for.

[MrStabby]

While I often DO multiclass from Cleric, Fighter, and Paladin- those are also the three classes I'm most willing to stay as solo runs as well.

I think I would do the same as Sorcerer and Druid but I've not played a Druid yet in 5e and every Sorcerer run I attempt falls short almost immediately for some reason or another.

For Fighter it's mainly because whenever I play a Fighter, regardless of subclass, I feel my role is to become THE weapon guy that walks into a fight and lays the smackdown with the most attacks possible and demonstrate martial might. Whether that smackdown includes Maneuvers, Magic, or something else varies by character.


Similar is the Paladin. My job is to walk up to an enemy and Smite his bum good. As an added benefit I like Devotion and Ancients Paladin Oaths- meaning I have very nice auras to spread amongst my allies that I need lots of Levels for.

Cleric is a funny one for me. Tasha's has changed that a lot.

Pre-Tasha's cleric seemed to stall at level 10 with no really meaningful class feaures beyond there. You got the (very cool) divine intervention then your spells were few, were not that impressive and you got little extra martial power. Your domain spells stopped and your domain class features dried up as well. If there were ever a caster class to bail out of at mid levels it was the cleric. Tasha's gave us some really good spells for higher levels and spells that really built on the class.

Add to that the more powerful cleric subclasses in Tasha's guide and the class is a lot harder to put down.

[kingcheesepants]

When I play wizards I often do a cleric or artificer dip for the armor, shield, healing and extra prep slots but then every time when I hit those odd levels (5, 7, 9) I feel the pain of not having my next level spells available. Staying straight wizard on the other hand and at low levels especially you feel the pain of no armor and fewer prepared spells. So it's very much a toss up. I could never imagine doing more than a 1 level dip as a wizard though. Even that one level with all it gives is painful. Doing fighter 2 like some people have would be insane to me.

[AIResearch]

Arcana Cleric. At 20th level they can cast Wish as a bonus action with Metamagic Adept and then Divine Intervention the effect of Wish (which can be benefited from without fear of Stress). AMAZING!!!!!!.

[Gtdead]

I'm inclined to stay the course up to level 11 for most classes. The worst ones to decide for are casters without CON proficiency. Unlike Sorcerer who can dip whenever, Wizards, Clerics and Druids need to dip at level 1. I'm rarely inclined to dip on martials pre level 5. I may multiclass out of Ranger into Druid at level 5, out of Paladin at level 6 or 7 depending on Subclass, out of Fighter at level 11 (although I will probably come back to it for ASIs).

If I know the campaign will reach 20, the only build that I'd really want to get to 20 singleclassed, would be an Arcana Cleric assuming that I can use DI with the level 17 feature. Barbarian is also a good candidate for level 20 singleclassing. For most other classes, I'd probably trade their capstones for dips, including Fighter unless the DM is extremely generous with magic items. Monks and Warlocks are a bit harder to decide, but I don't think I'd get level 20 on them if I wanted to optimize.

[Hiro Quester]

I'm an inveterate multiclasser. I am always comparing that awesome capstone ability (that will only be used for maybe the big boss fight at the end), vs, a whole career worth of useful low level abilities from a dip into a complementary class.

So even if there is a tasty reward for sticking to the end of a class, I'm usually looking for extra options and reinforcements early on, to shore up weaknesses or add complementary class features.

EDIT:
e.g. my Clockwork Soul sorcerer dips Forge cleric 1 at level 2, for heavy armor and more low-levels slots.
My Hexblade dips (well... starts with) bard 1 for much-needed low-level slots, inspiration, and roleplaying flavor (i.e. bard goes down to the crossroads to make a deal before taking hexblade at level 2)

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Cleric is a funny one for me. Tasha's has changed that a lot.

Pre-Tasha's cleric seemed to stall at level 10 with no really meaningful class feaures beyond there. You got the (very cool) divine intervention then your spells were few, were not that impressive and you got little extra martial power. Your domain spells stopped and your domain class features dried up as well. If there were ever a caster class to bail out of at mid levels it was the cleric. Tasha's gave us some really good spells for higher levels and spells that really built on the class.

Add to that the more powerful cleric subclasses in Tasha's guide and the class is a lot harder to put down.

I do agree that if you ignore the 6th to 9th level spells, the features beyond 10th were terrible. The improved Destroy Undead is basically worthless given the CR affected.

What I can't really agree with is that the spells were bad. I've played a couple of Clerics into Tier 4 and always found the higher level spells useful. Divine Word alone was probably the single most powerful ability any party member had towards the end of Out of the Abyss. 1/2 the Demons would just go away; no concentration. The DM had to adjust important encounters just for that or they would have been walk overs.

I'd be interested in what you were bailing into that was better than getting those (albeit few) higher level spells.

[Guy Lombard-O]

What I can't really agree with is that the spells were bad. I've played a couple of Clerics into Tier 4 and always found the higher level spells useful. Divine Word alone was probably the single most powerful ability any party member had towards the end of Out of the Abyss. 1/2 the Demons would just go away; no concentration. The DM had to adjust important encounters just for that or they would have been walk overs.

I'm surprised to hear this about the higher level cleric spells. While they're certainly not terrible, they seem far weaker than those of the wizard, bard or sorcerer list.

Divine Word, for instance. Are there really that many demons who have 40 HP or less and are a threat to a 13th level party? If you're already in the Abyss, you cannot banish them back to a home plane.
Or was it always just a matter of pure numbers in your game? I've always looked at that spell and figured that the HP limits were too low to do much good. Or is this more of a finisher spell, something to use in the 3rd or 4th round of combat?


I'd be interested in what you were bailing into that was better than getting those (albeit few) higher level spells.

I'm currently playing a 9th level trickery cleric, and looking forward at the next 10-11 levels seems pretty underwhelming. I was considering multiclassing into an aberrant mind sorcerer instead, as the psionic spells, metamagics and new flavors of spells seem more enticing than sticking around for level 6-9 cleric spells (and very little else from cleric). Very unsure if that's the best choice, so I'd be interested to hear what other high level cleric spells actually turn out to be regularly useful in tier 3-4.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I'm surprised to hear this about the higher level cleric spells. While they're certainly not terrible, they seem far weaker than those of the wizard, bard or sorcerer list.

Divine Word, for instance. Are there really that many demons who have 40 HP or less and are a threat to a 13th level party? If you're already in the Abyss, you cannot banish them back to a home plane.
Or was it always just a matter of pure numbers in your game? I've always looked at that spell and figured that the HP limits were too low to do much good. Or is this more of a finisher spell, something to use in the 3rd or 4th round of combat?



I'm currently playing a 9th level trickery cleric, and looking forward at the next 10-11 levels seems pretty underwhelming. I was considering multiclassing into an aberrant mind sorcerer instead, as the psionic spells, metamagics and new flavors of spells seem more enticing than sticking around for level 6-9 cleric spells (and very little else from cleric). Very unsure if that's the best choice, so I'd be interested to hear what other high level cleric spells actually turn out to be regularly useful in tier 3-4.


Here's part of the spell description from Divine Word:
Regardless of its current hit points, a celestial, an elemental, a fey, or a fiend that fails its save is forced back to its plane of origin (if it isn’t there already) and can’t return to your current plane for 24 hours by any means short of a wish spell.
So HP are irrelevent. Granted OotA (which is in the underdark) makes this particular spell a lot less situational than other mods, but that's still a pretty long list of baddies.

As far as other spells go, how about Plane Shift? By tier 3 you can take your entire party to another plane of existance. That could be kinda handy in a pinch.
I do get it that when you read them some of these are situational but the fact that you pray for spells and can tailor them to your needs at the time does help.

[Sigreid]

I personally tend to not multiclass. Which means basically anything I'm likely to play. Which excludes warlock.

So, unless I start as a warlock, I'm unlikely to multiclass. But if I start as a warlock I'm likely to bug out a few levels in.

[sithlordnergal]

Druid is the only class I have ever gone single class on. The Druid capstone is just too powerful. I mean, infinite Wild Shapes and you ignore all spell components that don't have a listed price? That's not just powerful, that's downright OP. Level 20 Druids are just immune to Counterspell and Silence.

As for the rest of the classes, nothing ever stood out to me as worthwhile. Paladin capstones are fine...but you get so much by taking levels of Bard or Sorcerer.

The Wizard capstone is...underwhelming to be honest. Compare it to everything you get by starting as a Fighter. You gain slightly more hp, incredible AC, Con saves, all weapons, and if you take one more Fighter level you get Action Surge.

Cleric is just as underwhelming, but in this case its due to the spells themselves. You don't have a lot to look forward to as a high level cleric when it comes to spell casting. All of your best spells are low level, and they aren't very good at scaling.

You can basically say the same for every other class. Either their capstone is super underwhelming or they don't get very many good features/spells at high level, and end up getting betted things via multicladsing.

[sithlordnergal]

What I can't really agree with is that the spells were bad. I've played a couple of Clerics into Tier 4 and always found the higher level spells useful. Divine Word alone was probably the single most powerful ability any party member had towards the end of Out of the Abyss. 1/2 the Demons would just go away; no concentration. The DM had to adjust important encounters just for that or they would have been walk overs.

I'd be interested in what you were bailing into that was better than getting those (albeit few) higher level spells.

The problem with Cleric spells is that they're just too niche. Divine Word is great...if you're facing a Fey, Fiend, or Elemental. Not so great is you're facing 11 or 12 enemy types in the game. Some with things like Plane Shift, its AWESOME....if you have at least two tuning forks, one to get to the desired Plane of Existence and one to get back home. Etherealness is also a wonderful spell, especially for scouting. But those are the best of what the Cleric has for 7th level spells. The rest are either very unimpressive, like Fire Storm, too niche, like Regenerate and Temple of the Gods, too expensive to cast, like Resurrection, or just plain bad, like Conjure Celestial.

Like...seriously...Fire Storm is a 7th level spell. It deals about the same amount of damage as a 7th level Freezing Sphere, with a higher max damage, lower min damage, and effectively the same average damage, but its smaller than Freezing Sphere with half the range. Meanwhile Conjure Celestial can only summon a CR 4 Celestial? At a 7th level spell!?! Compare that to literally every other conjure spell in the game. Is your summon being friendly to you really worth that much?

The same holds true to nearly every group of spell levels. There are one or two really good spells, but most of them are too niche to be useful. This is especially true when you compare their spell list to the Wizard and even Druid.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Granted OotA (which is in the underdark) makes this particular spell a lot less situational than other mods, but that's still a pretty long list of baddies.

As far as other spells go, how about Plane Shift? By tier 3 you can take your entire party to another plane of existance. That could be kinda handy in a pinch.
I do get it that when you read them some of these are situational but the fact that you pray for spells and can tailor them to your needs at the time does help.

Ah. Haven't played OotA myself, I thought it took place in the Abyss and therefore the banishing part was out of play.

Plane Shift always struck me as more of a plot-advancement kind of spell, sort of like that Dream of the Blue Turtles Veil thing. If the DM's plot needs the party in the hells, then a way will show up to get there (and if you win/survive/accomplish X, then another way will appear to get back). If not, then mucking about in other planes is likely to only lead to unnecessary difficulties. But I haven't played those levels, so my suspicions are mostly theoretical.

[Amnestic]

Meanwhile Conjure Celestial can only summon a CR 4 Celestial? At a 7th level spell!?! Compare that to literally every other conjure spell in the game. Is your summon being friendly to you really worth that much?

You're pretty much never going to summon anything other than a Couatl since your other options are Pegasus, and Winged Bull/Lion (if Theros monsters are allowed).

But Couatl are pretty decent! 19AC, passive 120' telepathy and Truesight (that latter part is essentially a free 6th level spell already), 1/Day Scrying, Greater Restoration and Dream plus some extras 3/day, unlimited detect thoughts+magic, immune to nonmagical BPS, 90' fly speed, immune to scrying/divination.

If you were to stack it against Tasha's Summon Celestial, cast at 7th level, the Couatl does less damage with its attacks - but it can also grapple/restrain, poison, has more AC, HP, damage immunities, truesight, better saves and a bunch of spellcasting to help you out.

One could argue this is due to the couatl being under-CR'd, potentially, especially when stacked up against the Winged Bull/Lion in Theros. But...it is what it is. Summon your rianbow snake, you won't be disappointed. Probably.

[MrCharlie]

The problem with Cleric spells is that they're just too niche. Divine Word is great...if you're facing a Fey, Fiend, or Elemental. Not so great is you're facing 11 or 12 enemy types in the game. Some with things like Plane Shift, its AWESOME....if you have at least two tuning forks, one to get to the desired Plane of Existence and one to get back home. Etherealness is also a wonderful spell, especially for scouting. But those are the best of what the Cleric has for 7th level spells. The rest are either very unimpressive, like Fire Storm, too niche, like Regenerate and Temple of the Gods, too expensive to cast, like Resurrection, or just plain bad, like Conjure Celestial.

Like...seriously...Fire Storm is a 7th level spell. It deals about the same amount of damage as a 7th level Freezing Sphere, with a higher max damage, lower min damage, and effectively the same average damage, but its smaller than Freezing Sphere with half the range. Meanwhile Conjure Celestial can only summon a CR 4 Celestial? At a 7th level spell!?! Compare that to literally every other conjure spell in the game. Is your summon being friendly to you really worth that much?

The same holds true to nearly every group of spell levels. There are one or two really good spells, but most of them are too niche to be useful. This is especially true when you compare their spell list to the Wizard and even Druid.
Indeed, the only thing that generally keeps the cleric list competitive over something like Druid is their domain spells (and more good level 3 options). Given that they don't get those at level 10+, and we have problems.

(Though as others have pointed out, conjure celestial for rainbow snake is one of the most versatile summons in the game with basically half the entire PHB divination spell list on their sheet and a couple decent CC options in combat-if it weren't for conjure summons that broke the game, we'd be praising it as a good pick).

It's also worth noting that cleric has the smallest 8th and 9th level list in the game, and 3/4 options on each level are situational. Only holy aura and mass heal will basically always be useful in an adventuring day, although antimagic field, earthquake, and gate are all situationally game changing. Given that a Druid, whom they nearly compete with for anemic high level lists, gets animal shapes and foresight, and the Bard gets magical secrets...Yeah, the cleric list is flat out the weakest in the game.

It's why I tend to gravitate towards the arcana domain when considering high level cleric builds. Most of the features are mediocre, most of the spells are mediocre, but the 17th level feature fixes the one major cleric problem at high level. It's just such a slog to get there.

[Zuras]

Druid is easily the most tempting to single class. All the multi-class possibilities (like barbarian and rogue) are interesting but the delay in caster progression is downright painful. Add in the armor restrictions and there’s not much synergy if you expect the campaign to last into even the mid levels—Druid 3rd level spells are great, and delaying access to them hurts.

All the full caster classes discourage multi-classing, since you access new spell levels at least every other level. Wizard is the most tempting, since there are no really good multi-class Gish options. Druids and Clerics similarly reward you for staying the course, though Clerics get a bit less exciting after 9th level as their Domain spell progression stops.

This is more of a theoretical issue, though. Most campaigns don’t last long past 9th level, and on-going high level campaigns with high CR threats make access to the boring but exceptionally powerful fix-it spells like Heal, Regenerate and Resurrection very attractive.

This is not to say I don’t see a lot of Cleric multi-class builds, just that it’s much more common to pick up extra attack from a martial class and then go into caster levels than the reverse, because you don’t stop getting new game-changing spells till at least 11th level.

All the charisma casters get solid boosts each level as well, but the relative lack of drawbacks from dipping into another charisma caster means multiclassing is much more tempting, especially when a couple of Warlock or Paladin levels provide so many benefits.

Ranger and Barbarian are the least attractive for single classing. They have relatively few compelling features after 6th level and are feature deserts in Tiers 3 and 4.

Fighter has lots of good stuff in every tier, but I find the compelling features are also spaced widely (unless you are hungry for ASIs), so there is greater temptation to multiclass.

Rogue also ends up multiclassing a lot, but this is more due to lack of penalties for doing so and because your party role is often utility rather than damage.

I’ve only seen a few multi-classed monks, mainly because of a lack of synergy with other classes and because they are so MAD that the progression from 5th to 9th is incredibly compelling (Extra attack & Stunning Strike, then subclass feature and Ki empowered strikes, then evasion, then ASI, then running up walls). By that point you’re within striking distance of the high level monk features like Diamond Soul, and the relative utility of a low level dip is diminished.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

The problem with Cleric spells is that they're just too niche. Divine Word is great...if you're facing a Fey, Fiend, or Elemental. Not so great is you're facing 11 or 12 enemy types in the game. Some with things like Plane Shift, its AWESOME....if you have at least two tuning forks, one to get to the desired Plane of Existence and one to get back home. Etherealness is also a wonderful spell, especially for scouting. But those are the best of what the Cleric has for 7th level spells. The rest are either very unimpressive, like Fire Storm, too niche, like Regenerate and Temple of the Gods, too expensive to cast, like Resurrection, or just plain bad, like Conjure Celestial.

Like...seriously...Fire Storm is a 7th level spell. It deals about the same amount of damage as a 7th level Freezing Sphere, with a higher max damage, lower min damage, and effectively the same average damage, but its smaller than Freezing Sphere with half the range. Meanwhile Conjure Celestial can only summon a CR 4 Celestial? At a 7th level spell!?! Compare that to literally every other conjure spell in the game. Is your summon being friendly to you really worth that much?

The same holds true to nearly every group of spell levels. There are one or two really good spells, but most of them are too niche to be useful. This is especially true when you compare their spell list to the Wizard and even Druid.

I think the 6th level list isn't too bad when you consider things like Heal and True Sight, which aren't situational. Plane Shift is good enough as a 'get out of jail free' card for the party that it's worth saving unless you have something else really good in mind.

Considering the topic of this thread is whether or not to keep going all the way with a class, not class vs. class, the comparisons really need to be:
Higher level Cleric abilities vs. the lower level abilities of another class (that you'd pick up through a dip).
Not:
Higher level Cleric abilities vs. Higher level abilities of another class.

I'll agree the non-spell higher level abilities aren't good and maybe the higher level Cleric spells are more situational than other classes' higher level spells (with the caveat that Clerics have the versatility of praying for spells). But, based on that alone I haven't really seen an argument that spending a few levels in something else is better than later Cleric levels.

[Sception]

for me the only classes that I'm not at least strongly tempted to multiclass are cleric and druid. Other full casters gain ~a lot~ from that one level armor dip, pure martials tend to experience varying degrees diminishing returns in tiers 3 and 4 where multiclassing looks like a better and better deal the further you go, cha classes have amazing front loaded synergy with each other, Ranger really likes to slip in some fighter or rogue.

Artificer might be another exception along with cleric & druid, provided you've picked one of the better subclasses, but I haven't seen or built enough of them past tier 2 to have a firm opinion.

That's not to say I always multiclass everything other than clerics, druids & maybe artificers. Just that it's usually an option I'm at least inclined to consider.

[Ogre Mage]

Cleric, druid, wizard.

With bards, sorcerers and especially warlocks the temptation to multiclass is significant.

I do not play the other classes.

[Ir0ns0ul]

When I play wizards I often do a cleric or artificer dip for the armor, shield, healing and extra prep slots but then every time when I hit those odd levels (5, 7, 9) I feel the pain of not having my next level spells available. Staying straight wizard on the other hand and at low levels especially you feel the pain of no armor and fewer prepared spells. So it's very much a toss up. I could never imagine doing more than a 1 level dip as a wizard though. Even that one level with all it gives is painful. Doing fighter 2 like some people have would be insane to me.

That’s why Hobgoblin getting Moderately Armored at 4 is the best setup for a full straight Wizard.

[Pildion]

hmm, Bladesinger Wizard and Battlesmith Artificer and Moon Druid are the only ones that come to mind for me.

[J-H]

Everything except Ranger. High-level ranger spells are nice, but they come about 5 levels too late, and it feels like levels 16-20 are dead levels.

I have little interest in multiclassing anything else, although I'd take a 1-2 level dip out of Rogue for Warlock or Fighter.

[Eldariel]

The problem with Cleric spells is that they're just too niche. Divine Word is great...if you're facing a Fey, Fiend, or Elemental. Not so great is you're facing 11 or 12 enemy types in the game. Some with things like Plane Shift, its AWESOME....if you have at least two tuning forks, one to get to the desired Plane of Existence and one to get back home. Etherealness is also a wonderful spell, especially for scouting. But those are the best of what the Cleric has for 7th level spells. The rest are either very unimpressive, like Fire Storm, too niche, like Regenerate and Temple of the Gods, too expensive to cast, like Resurrection, or just plain bad, like Conjure Celestial.

Like...seriously...Fire Storm is a 7th level spell. It deals about the same amount of damage as a 7th level Freezing Sphere, with a higher max damage, lower min damage, and effectively the same average damage, but its smaller than Freezing Sphere with half the range. Meanwhile Conjure Celestial can only summon a CR 4 Celestial? At a 7th level spell!?! Compare that to literally every other conjure spell in the game. Is your summon being friendly to you really worth that much?

The same holds true to nearly every group of spell levels. There are one or two really good spells, but most of them are too niche to be useful. This is especially true when you compare their spell list to the Wizard and even Druid.

Conjure Celestial is deceiving since Celestials punch WAY above their weight class. The only CR4 Celestial is the Couatl that has great stats and EVERY CR 4- humanoid (and beast) ability including Leadership (Bless that stacks with Bless), advantage on all attack most attacks, most level 1-4 spells including infinite healing and its own spells, etc. CR5 Hollyphant from CCIX meanwhile casts supercharged level 7+ spells (seriously, Teleport Without Error is SO good) and has a Concentration free Globe of Invulnerability among other things. Cleric spells aren't as strong as other classes', but Conjure Celestial is an exception: it's THE best Cleric spell by a fair margin (especially with Planar Binding).

[Witty Username]

I really like multiclassing, most concepts for characters I think of don't work very well single class.
That being said, wizards are the most likely to be single classed. The subclass options get most of what I normally want.
Paladin has the issue that hexblade 1, or switching to a full caster like bard or sorcerer is very tempting. Even though that isn't better than just sticking with it.
Fighter, Barbarian and Rogue deserve to be mixed with other classes. They pair together nicely and form so.e very fun concepts.

[Khrysaes]

I really like multiclassing, most concepts for characters I think of don't work very well single class.
That being said, wizards are the most likely to be single classed. The subclass options get most of what I normally want.
Paladin has the issue that hexblade 1, or switching to a full caster like bard or sorcerer is very tempting. Even though that isn't better than just sticking with it.
Fighter, Barbarian and Rogue deserve to be mixed with other classes. They pair together nicely and form so.e very fun concepts.

Better is subjective. It depends on what you want more of.

A paladin 9/Hexblade 1/Bard 10 has 5th level spells KNOWN and is SAD. For smiting and spellcasting, this is better. You don't even lose Greater Find Steed with magical secrets. You do lose some paladin specific 4th and 5th level spells. But you can get two of those from Magical Secrets.

I would actually do 7 Paladin/1 hexblade/12 Bard and get 6th level spells known and 8th level spell slots, if I wanted the auras, maybe 6/1/13, for 7th level spells known.

[diplomancer]

Better is subjective. It depends on what you want more of.

A paladin 9/Hexblade 1/Bard 10 has 5th level spells KNOWN and is SAD. For smiting and spellcasting, this is better. You don't even lose Greater Find Steed with magical secrets. You do lose some paladin specific 4th and 5th level spells. But you can get two of those from Magical Secrets.

I would actually do 7 Paladin/1 hexblade/12 Bard and get 6th level spells known and 8th level spell slots, if I wanted the auras, maybe 6/1/13, for 7th level spells known.

Looking at the final build is only useful for one-shots and theory crafting, though. How would you level it up? If you're taking your 20th level as Bard 10, that's an awfully long time without Find Greater Steed (though Fly+Find Steed might be an acceptable substitute most of the time). I'd say the earliest you'd take Bard 10 is at CL 17 (Paladin 6/Hexblade 1). Still a long time without FGS.

Notice that, even if you want mostly to smite, what your first combination does is to give you one more 6th level slot and one more 7th level slot (with which you can only upcast spells) as compared to a Paladin 19/Hexblade 1.

Basically, if you're taking Paladin 7/Hexblade 1, multiclassing into a spellcasting class will give you more diversified casting, but not necessarily better casting. You're getting 3rd level spells 3 levels later, 4th level spells 1 level later, only finally coming ahead with 5th level spells 1 level earlier (Paladin 7, Hexblade 1, Bard 9, CL 17, instead of Paladin 17, Hexblade 1). And it comes at the considerable cost of delaying ASIs by 3 levels.

[Khrysaes]

Looking at the final build is only useful for one-shots and theory crafting, though. How would you level it up? If you're taking your 20th level as Bard 10, that's an awfully long time without Find Greater Steed (though Fly+Find Steed might be an acceptable substitute most of the time). I'd say the earliest you'd take Bard 10 is at CL 17 (Paladin 6/Hexblade 1). Still a long time without FGS.

Notice that, even if you want mostly to smite, what your first combination does is to give you one more 6th level slot and one more 7th level slot (with which you can only upcast spells) as compared to a Paladin 19/Hexblade 1.

Basically, if you're taking Paladin 7/Hexblade 1, multiclassing into a spellcasting class will give you more diversified casting, but not necessarily better casting. You're getting 3rd level spells 3 levels later, 4th level spells 1 level later, only finally coming ahead with 5th level spells 1 level earlier (Paladin 7, Hexblade 1, Bard 9, CL 17, instead of Paladin 17, Hexblade 1). And it comes at the considerable cost of delaying ASIs by 3 levels.

Everything is a trade off of wants. Hence why for the most part, better is subjective.

Edit: to be fair, there are also objectively better and worse things as well. Like truestrike.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Wizard, Sorc, Warlock. I don’t really play the other full casters but probably them too.

In short, all the AC from better armor in the world will never feel as significant as having a higher level of spells sooner. And generally, when starting at a higher level, the subclass features or ASIs will be enough of a draw on the even levels to steer clear of MC.

Even if a campaign is never likely to get to 17+, the prospect of a full additional level with access to Wish, Gate, and Meteor Swarm is enough for me to start full caster and see it through.

[Pildion]

I guess in the end, I don't think any CLASS is enough to make me stay the course. Some of the classes have subclasses that would make me go full 20 levels, but never a whole class, always going the full 20 levels.

[KorvinStarmast]

What classes makes you want to stay the course?
Paladin
Cleric
Druid
(I simply don't play wizards in this edition, but I'd take wizard to 20 if I change my mind).
Bard (Lore) (Though I admit that my Lore Bard took her last level in Fathomless Warlock as we ended the campaign for purely aesthetic reasons - had to do with my deity/muse/coastal-sailor-pirate background).
Rogue

I am not sure what I am going to do about my Celestial 'Lock, but I am also pretty sure that her campaign will not reach 20. Our party has a usurper to take down, and once that is done - I'll guess around level 11 or 12 - I doubt the DM has enough time or content to take us farther.

Barbarian: what the heck, go all in and just hit stuff hard. :smallsmile: