Best party buffer?

[jaappleton]

I'm not talking about healing. Healing is reactive.

Instead, how can I buff the party to the point of God mode?

Make them better, faster, stronger, WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY!

Kind of thinking Divine Soul, largely due to Twinned, but I'm sure there's something better out there.

[ProsecutorGodot]

It really depends on who has the most class abilities that "buff" and the most ability to stack those buffs.

Cleric (Twilight/Arcana/Order), Divine Soul Sorcerer, Chronurgy Wizard, Paladin, Artificer would be my suggestions. Artificer probably has the broadest set of buffs between SSI and Infusions but is noticeably lacking in the supportive ability until T3 since SSI only comes at level 11 and the 10th level replicate magic item table is where most of the useful magic items show up.

[TyGuy]

Recent bard subs that have riders on inspiration are my top picks.

[Mastikator]

Also: Valor Bard. Extra points if you can get your hands on Bless which is my favorite buff.

[borg286]

Check out my Renaissance Man build in my signature. It caches in on the Sorcerer's ability to twin. Twin dissonant Whispers to enable tons of allies on 2 fronts of the battle to get an extra attack in. Twin Haste is hard to beat. Twin polymorph to turn 2 allies into T-Rexes and completely dominate that battle. Sickening radiance won't kill foes all by itself. It rewards allies pushing/keeping enemies in its zone. Twin Levitate let's you save 1 ally from being in danger and also try to extract a foe from the battlefield. You don't kill levitated foes, but save them for after battle is done, whereupon the team takes him out or interrogates them. Hypnotic pattern doesn't kill, but halves the enemy forces so your allies can focus fire the ones that made their save.
While a wizard can cast these spells, twin let's him front load like no other.

[Greywander]

I'm not sure this is a question that has an answer, because I don't think there's an answer to the question, "What's the best buff?" Bless, Pass without Trace, and Fly are all excellent buffs... for different situations. You don't cast Pass without Trace during combat, and you don't cast Bless during overland travel. There are a lot of really great buffs out there that help with doing specific things, and a lot of these buffs are mutually exclusive. This might be due to both requiring concentration, or being on different spell lists, or being features for different classes or subclasses. Buffing shouldn't be just one person's job, it needs to be something the party does together.

So I think a better approach to this idea is to first figure out what some of the strongest buffs are for different circumstances. Then you want to build a party that can include as many of those as possible.

Alternatively, perhaps what you're actually looking for is, "What's the best support build?" Which is a slightly different question, a broader one. I think to some degree the same logic still applies; there are many ways to offer support, and you can sometimes get a multiplicative effect if you have two or more different support builds running in the same party, so there isn't necessarily one that's better than all others. A paladin's Aura of Protection is great, but you don't really benefit as much from having a second paladin, so a cleric or artificer or Divine Soul sorcerer would probably give you more bang for your buck.

[LudicSavant]

I'm not talking about healing. Healing is reactive.

Instead, how can I buff the party to the point of God mode?

Make them better, faster, stronger, WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY!

Kind of thinking Divine Soul, largely due to Twinned, but I'm sure there's something better out there.

It really depends, because different buffs are best for different people. What's a great buff for one party composition may prove all but worthless in another.

[RSP]

JA, do you have a specific party make up in mind? Or a specific way you intend to buff (whether spells or situations)? Any must haves?

It’ll help us direct you if we can get more info.

[stoutstien]

Without knowing the party makeup in question it's hard to say but the best are probably the ones that have ways to stack bonuses past the normal expecting curve like peace cleric , pallys, or artificer handing out +1 weapons early. I'd lean in favor for artificer just because it has the ability to buff up just about any party regardless of makeup or goal.

[jaappleton]

JA, do you have a specific party make up in mind? Or a specific way you intend to buff (whether spells or situations)? Any must haves?

It’ll help us direct you if we can get more info.

Very fair, I should have included that. My bad.

Me (currently Controller Aberrant Mind)
Abjurer/Armorer Tank
Swords Bard
Alchemist
Scout Archer Rogue, changing to melee Psi Warrior

I am exploring swapping to Buffer because I suspect despite using Silvery Barbs in co junction with Heightened Metamagic, enemies are still *somehow* saving against things like Hold Monster a little too frequently >_>

[Chronos]

It depends on party size. A lot of buff effects only help one ally at a time, or some small number like three. But the biggest benefit from buffing comes from when you can buff many allies. On the other hand, a paladin's auras can affect everyone in range, no matter how many there are. Even with the basic 10' version, and medium-sized non-flying allies, that could be the paladin and her 20 best friends, and it just gets better once you level up to the 30' version.

[stoutstien]

Very fair, I should have included that. My bad.

Me (currently Controller Aberrant Mind)
Abjurer/Armorer Tank
Swords Bard
Alchemist
Scout Archer Rogue, changing to melee Psi Warrior

I am exploring swapping to Buffer because I suspect despite using Silvery Barbs in co junction with Heightened Metamagic, enemies are still *somehow* saving against things like Hold Monster a little too frequently >_>

Melee heavy party. I'd go with a shield master oath of watcher pally. Nice mix if offense and defense focused buffs. That or a peace cleric but I'd probably have more fun with the pally.

[jaappleton]

Melee heavy party. I'd go with a shield master oath of watcher pally. Nice mix if offense and defense focused buffs. That or a peace cleric but I'd probably have more fun with the pally.

I'm thinking full caster is the way to go. Cleric gets Spirit Guardians so I can wade into the middle, too.

[MrStabby]

Divine soul sorcerer with a peace cleric dip would be my first thought. Then the same but with a twilight cleric or order cleric option.

If you want something more defensive, a devotion paladin to level 7 would a be a good start.

[Jakinbandw]

Peace Cleric 1/elequnce bard x. Inspiring leader as well if noone else has it.

After you get your buffs up and running just throw skill checks at your opponents to intimidate them and such when low level. Higher level you can debuff their saves with bardic inspiration, then hit them with fun stuff like bestow curse upcast to level 5 so it doesn't require concentration.

Command is also fun to throw out if you have the slots. Denies the target an action, and gives all your allies advantage for a round of combat. At higher levels you get access to an ability that allows every creature to understand you, so you can use it on anything.

It's a lot of fun.

[Angelalex242]

Always have a Paladin. Choose between Devotion for Charm Immunity, or Ancients for Magic Damage resistance. And a +5/+6 with book for save bonuses. If he's got a Holy Avenger, add advantage on all those saves.

[LudicSavant]

Always have a Paladin. Choose between Devotion for Charm Immunity, or Ancients for Magic Damage resistance. And a +5/+6 with book for save bonuses. If he's got a Holy Avenger, add advantage on all those saves.

Melee heavy party. I'd go with a shield master oath of watcher pally. Nice mix if offense and defense focused buffs. That or a peace cleric but I'd probably have more fun with the pally.

Very fair, I should have included that. My bad.

Me (currently Controller Aberrant Mind)
Abjurer/Armorer Tank
Swords Bard
Alchemist
Scout Archer Rogue, changing to melee Psi Warrior

I am exploring swapping to Buffer because I suspect despite using Silvery Barbs in co junction with Heightened Metamagic, enemies are still *somehow* saving against things like Hold Monster a little too frequently >_>

- I don't see an obvious source of temp HP in there, so you'll probably want to consider throwing that in. Strong possibilities there include Twilight Cleric, Glamour Bard, or just having someone grab Inspiring Leader.
- A Rogue will appreciate something that can enable their off-turn sneak attacks, such as Haste (with the Ready trick) or an Order Cleric (or Order Cleric dipper).
- Swords Bard will kinda depend on what sort of spells and other options they're taking. Bards can end up very different from each other depending on their choices. Same goes for the Abjurer. There can be a lot of variation between characters even with the same subclass.
- In the case of Cleric options, Twilight and Peace are pretty clear winners in the buffing category.
- Chronurgy Wizard is so stupid good I feel dirty even mentioning it.
- As others have mentioned above, getting someone in the party with Dat Aura is certainly an option. Of the Paladin auras, I think Watchers may have the most potential (capitalizing on first turn advantage is huge in 5e), but others are definitely strong too (Devotion, Ancients, etc). I have a build for one here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24941211&postcount=938) that buffs the entire party into a stealthy ninja alpha strike team.

[Kenny_Snoggins]

Very fair, I should have included that. My bad.

Me (currently Controller Aberrant Mind)
Abjurer/Armorer Tank
Swords Bard
Alchemist
Scout Archer Rogue, changing to melee Psi Warrior

I am exploring swapping to Buffer because I suspect despite using Silvery Barbs in co junction with Heightened Metamagic, enemies are still *somehow* saving against things like Hold Monster a little too frequently >_>

An eloquence hex bard prepping the target with mind sliver, unsettling words, and then dropping silver barbs on their saving throw against a spell will pretty much ensure a failure unless they have legendary resistance. You also get unfailing and contagious inspiration which are the best forms of "regular" bardic inspiration. Given that and their other skills, especially in the social pillar and ability as a light healer and Rogue substitute, I would say they are the best party buffer, and it's not particularly close. Their only competition IMO is a Lore bard, although in a very melee heavy party the Lore bard might get closer to parity since the eloquence bard works best when tag teaming with another full caster.

For party support buffs, polymorph is awesome and very fun for everyone, your find greater steed mount is useful for evacuating martials that have dropped, countercharm is a ribbon, yeah, but it comes in handy fairly often, and you get free bonus healing from song of rest, hypnotic pattern puts everything on ez mode Combat wise, and you can spec it to be able to handle any kind of skill problem you expect to come up, and still have proficiencies left over for contingencies

[werescythe]

Personally I'd say that bards are really good for buffing the party.


Also: Valor Bard. Extra points if you can get your hands on Bless which is my favorite buff.

Which I believe is possible with the Feytouched Feat (if you don't want to use your Magical Secrets for it).

[Gtdead]

I think the Golden Standard is Max CHA Watchers Paladin with FT:GoA and IL.
PWT casters have the most potential though, effectively shaving 1 round out of every encounter even if they are more circumstantial.

Controlling the Engagement is very important to me.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Fey touched Druid. You can take Bless with the feat and Druid gets some good ones.

[MrCharlie]

Divine soul, hands down. You get basically every buff spell in the game, and can twin the short-duration ones to great effect. Meanwhile Aid and Death Ward can be extended to 16 hours, letting you basically give everyone 10+ extra HP and a freebie get out of death free card.

You also have great healing because extended aura of vitality is a thing.

Other good buffers: Artificers of any type de facto buff when handing out their infusions, twilight clerics have stupid amounts of temp HP from their divine channel, and eloquence bards have better inspiration and inspiration is already good.

But nothing quite hits like extended aid/death ward and twinned greater invisibility.

[jaappleton]

See, here's the issue I have

Twilight is a trap.

Don't get me wrong! On paper? It's amazing. In play? Amazing.

But there's this underlying current within it. And it's a problem with any build that leans far too heavily into a singular aspect.

Let's continue to use Twilight as my current example. I'll provide another momentarily.

Twilight and the amount of temp HP provided in its channel divinity is utterly broken. It really is. And if your DM is only doing published stuff, by the book, it can break stuff fairly easily.

What happens with a different DM, or when that first one starts to change things?

Part of the DMs job is to create tension during a battle. The occasional battle where the party steamrolls the foes is fine, but should not be routine. The DM has to create encounters fair, but challenging.

So stuff like Twilight, or for example... Heightened Metamagic combined with Silvery Barbs and Hold Monster to shut down an enemy.... or, say, the Sickening Radiance / Wall of Force microwave...

Stuff like this is fine once.

But if you keep doing it, it unintentionally creates this arms race. The DM needs to create tougher encounters to give that same feeling of difficulty in the encounters, and eventually, something has to break.

This never ends well. Ever.

When it's a spell combo, that's one thing. OK, knock it off.

When it's Twilight, and it's literally a core feature of the subclass... it kind of eliminates the entire identity and point of the subclass.

So I'm trying to avoid something like 'almost endless HP' in Twilight.

Watchers is great, actually better than I'd thought once everyone pointed out a few things, but... I know all about Paladins and their nova capabilities. I'm legitimately trying to leave most damage to be done by the other characters, because if I create something like that, next thing you know the DM is adding more HP to compensate for the fact that I outright murdered the last encounter. I'm very hesitant on playing that, or any sort of damage dealer.

.....given what I just said, about the arms race.... Is it better to go more for a generalist sort of character, instead of going all in on one aspect?

[ProsecutorGodot]

See, here's the issue I have

Twilight is a trap.

Don't get me wrong! On paper? It's amazing. In play? Amazing.

But there's this underlying current within it. And it's a problem with any build that leans far too heavily into a singular aspect.

Let's continue to use Twilight as my current example. I'll provide another momentarily.

Twilight and the amount of temp HP provided in its channel divinity is utterly broken. It really is. And if your DM is only doing published stuff, by the book, it can break stuff fairly easily.

What happens with a different DM, or when that first one starts to change things?

Part of the DMs job is to create tension during a battle. The occasional battle where the party steamrolls the foes is fine, but should not be routine. The DM has to create encounters fair, but challenging.

So stuff like Twilight, or for example... Heightened Metamagic combined with Silvery Barbs and Hold Monster to shut down an enemy.... or, say, the Sickening Radiance / Wall of Force microwave...

Stuff like this is fine once.

But if you keep doing it, it unintentionally creates this arms race. The DM needs to create tougher encounters to give that same feeling of difficulty in the encounters, and eventually, something has to break.

This never ends well. Ever.

When it's a spell combo, that's one thing. OK, knock it off.

When it's Twilight, and it's literally a core feature of the subclass... it kind of eliminates the entire identity and point of the subclass.

So I'm trying to avoid something like 'almost endless HP' in Twilight.

Watchers is great, actually better than I'd thought once everyone pointed out a few things, but... I know all about Paladins and their nova capabilities. I'm legitimately trying to leave most damage to be done by the other characters, because if I create something like that, next thing you know the DM is adding more HP to compensate for the fact that I outright murdered the last encounter. I'm very hesitant on playing that, or any sort of damage dealer.

.....given what I just said, about the arms race.... Is it better to go more for a generalist sort of character, instead of going all in on one aspect?

If your DM is building encounters just to counter Twilight Cleric because it's an effective option, that highlights a different problem.

If you're worried this DM will do it (I'm not sure if you mention your current characters diminished effectiveness as simple bad luck or that it might imply foul play) then it's not going to matter if you pick between Twilight or Watchers because once they feel you're doing your thing too effectively they're going to make you do your thing worse.

My stance is that you should absolutely start with what you think is the most effective for whatever role you think you need to fill, whether that's a generally useful option or a hyper specific one. I don't think Twilight Cleric is all that hyper specific, it's still a Cleric behind it's incredible subclass abilities. Adjust after a problem has occurred, not in preparation for one that might not.

[Greywander]

But if you keep doing it, it unintentionally creates this arms race. The DM needs to create tougher encounters to give that same feeling of difficulty in the encounters, and eventually, something has to break.
I understand what you're saying, but the logical conclusion of this line of thinking is that you should deliberately play weak, underpowered, and ineffective characters so that the DM will go easy on you. This is basically the definition of a... dang it, I'm blanking on the term, but it's when in, say, a fighting game you discover the one combo that wrecks everything, so you just spam that combo for the entire game, even though it isn't fun (if someone knows the term for this, please remind me). Optimizing the fun out of the game, basically.

This also seems to depend somewhat on whether your DM is running Combat as Sport or Combat as War, and it sounds like you're talking about a Combat as Sport perspective. Under Combat as War, any encounter is potentially death, so you want to take every advantage you can get. Being stronger means being able to take on more dangerous encounters instead of doing everything you can to avoid that encounter (and usually you would still try to avoid a fight, if that's an option).

For Combat as Sport, I can understand how it could make the game less fun if one character is far stronger than any other PC or enemy. But even under Combat as Sport, or especially under Combat as Sport, you're meant to be rewarded for mastery of the rules, which includes optimized builds and strategies.

[LudicSavant]

See, here's the issue I have

Twilight is a trap.

Don't get me wrong! On paper? It's amazing. In play? Amazing.

But there's this underlying current within it. And it's a problem with any build that leans far too heavily into a singular aspect.

Let's continue to use Twilight as my current example. I'll provide another momentarily.

Twilight and the amount of temp HP provided in its channel divinity is utterly broken. It really is. And if your DM is only doing published stuff, by the book, it can break stuff fairly easily.

What happens with a different DM, or when that first one starts to change things?

Part of the DMs job is to create tension during a battle. The occasional battle where the party steamrolls the foes is fine, but should not be routine. The DM has to create encounters fair, but challenging.

So stuff like Twilight, or for example... Heightened Metamagic combined with Silvery Barbs and Hold Monster to shut down an enemy.... or, say, the Sickening Radiance / Wall of Force microwave...

Stuff like this is fine once.

But if you keep doing it, it unintentionally creates this arms race. The DM needs to create tougher encounters to give that same feeling of difficulty in the encounters, and eventually, something has to break.

This never ends well. Ever.

When it's a spell combo, that's one thing. OK, knock it off.

When it's Twilight, and it's literally a core feature of the subclass... it kind of eliminates the entire identity and point of the subclass.

So I'm trying to avoid something like 'almost endless HP' in Twilight.

Watchers is great, actually better than I'd thought once everyone pointed out a few things, but... I know all about Paladins and their nova capabilities. I'm legitimately trying to leave most damage to be done by the other characters, because if I create something like that, next thing you know the DM is adding more HP to compensate for the fact that I outright murdered the last encounter. I'm very hesitant on playing that, or any sort of damage dealer.

.....given what I just said, about the arms race.... Is it better to go more for a generalist sort of character, instead of going all in on one aspect?

I mean, you did ask for "best" and "god mode" in the OP. :smalltongue:


I don't think Twilight Cleric is all that hyper specific, it's still a Cleric behind it's incredible subclass abilities.

Anyways, like Prosecutor Godot says, options like Twilight already are more generalist sorts of characters rather than "going all in on one aspect." Indeed, that's why a Twilight Cleric is so ridiculous -- it's no more "all in" on its Channel Divinity than any other Cleric. It's not paying anything extra for that. It just gets that right on top of an already-good kit. Like, you could literally remove the temp HP from its Channel Divinity entirely, and it would still be a solid Cleric subclass (in fact, the Twilight Cleric's Channel Divinity without temp HP would still arguably be better than some other subclass Channel Divinities, like Forge or Nature).

Yeah, WotC should probably have never printed such a thing, and I can certainly understand not wanting to actually play it. But it (and/or Peace) is indeed the answer to your 'best/god mode buffer' query (at least amongst Cleric options. There's other insane stuff in other classes, like Chronurgist).

So maybe the answer is asking a different question?

[stoutstien]

See, here's the issue I have

Twilight is a trap.

Don't get me wrong! On paper? It's amazing. In play? Amazing.

But there's this underlying current within it. And it's a problem with any build that leans far too heavily into a singular aspect.

Let's continue to use Twilight as my current example. I'll provide another momentarily.

Twilight and the amount of temp HP provided in its channel divinity is utterly broken. It really is. And if your DM is only doing published stuff, by the book, it can break stuff fairly easily.

What happens with a different DM, or when that first one starts to change things?

Part of the DMs job is to create tension during a battle. The occasional battle where the party steamrolls the foes is fine, but should not be routine. The DM has to create encounters fair, but challenging.

So stuff like Twilight, or for example... Heightened Metamagic combined with Silvery Barbs and Hold Monster to shut down an enemy.... or, say, the Sickening Radiance / Wall of Force microwave...

Stuff like this is fine once.

But if you keep doing it, it unintentionally creates this arms race. The DM needs to create tougher encounters to give that same feeling of difficulty in the encounters, and eventually, something has to break.

This never ends well. Ever.

When it's a spell combo, that's one thing. OK, knock it off.

When it's Twilight, and it's literally a core feature of the subclass... it kind of eliminates the entire identity and point of the subclass.

So I'm trying to avoid something like 'almost endless HP' in Twilight.

Watchers is great, actually better than I'd thought once everyone pointed out a few things, but... I know all about Paladins and their nova capabilities. I'm legitimately trying to leave most damage to be done by the other characters, because if I create something like that, next thing you know the DM is adding more HP to compensate for the fact that I outright murdered the last encounter. I'm very hesitant on playing that, or any sort of damage dealer.

.....given what I just said, about the arms race.... Is it better to go more for a generalist sort of character, instead of going all in on one aspect?

Ah. The tension treadmill. It's a pretty common problem with tables that try to allow all content with a DM who isn't particularly ready to deal with the consequences. The good news is that most people value often so much higher than defense you can get away with it strong(er) support before it happens but your personal choices aren't going to change poor game management.

[Hael]

Peace 6 + artillerist 3 + whatever (druid/bard/more primary lvls etc) is ridiculous and game breaking.
Full Twilight/Peace/Eloquence/Chronurgist are all busted.

Shepherd/Star Druid + 1peace/life
1 order/X Divine soul (or bard) will be ridiculous with the new broken spell.

For more frontline, things like Paladin6 + BardX (Lore/Glamour/Eloquence etc).

The best will depend on the party of course.

[jaappleton]

I want to clarify

My DM is very far from adversarial.

Though I do believe it's part of their task to create challenging, tension filled encounters. Sometimes that requires a bit of.... Suspension of disbelief?

I have little doubt (and the other players have said this, it's not my own hubris here) that of the players at the table, I have the most D&D knowledge. We just recently got into Tier 3 play, and I have taken full advantage of all that brings. Let's face it, more powerful spells mean more powerful effects, naturally.

If I go with a damage build, I worry about stepping on other players toes.

If I go controller, as my current character is, well... I'm not blaming the DM. Not one bit! I know what their job is, I DMed my home group for years. I know everything involved. Despite my valiant efforts, the DM can't let me trivialize every battle. When I say controller, I mean Aberrant Mind Sorc with a Bloodwell Vial and Staff of Power, with Hold Monster as a Psionic spell... That's a LOT of Hold Monsters in a day.

So, hypothetically, IF the DM is doing what needs to be done behind the scenes to prevent me from trivializing the battles, I get it. I do.

I'm the only one optimizing in such a way. If I'm going to play a hero, I want to be an effective one.

If everyone else is at a 4-7 out of 10, in terms of optimization, I'm certainly at an 11 in regards to this table.

So.... Do I go full into support, with something like Peace or Twilight, to elevate the others in the group?

Or do I make a more generalist, Jack of all trades that can contribute in a variety of ways, so the DM doesn't have to do something to prevent me from trivializing things?

[MrStabby]

See, here's the issue I have

Twilight is a trap.

Don't get me wrong! On paper? It's amazing. In play? Amazing.

But there's this underlying current within it. And it's a problem with any build that leans far too heavily into a singular aspect.

Let's continue to use Twilight as my current example. I'll provide another momentarily.

Twilight and the amount of temp HP provided in its channel divinity is utterly broken. It really is. And if your DM is only doing published stuff, by the book, it can break stuff fairly easily.

What happens with a different DM, or when that first one starts to change things?

Part of the DMs job is to create tension during a battle. The occasional battle where the party steamrolls the foes is fine, but should not be routine. The DM has to create encounters fair, but challenging.

So stuff like Twilight, or for example... Heightened Metamagic combined with Silvery Barbs and Hold Monster to shut down an enemy.... or, say, the Sickening Radiance / Wall of Force microwave...

Stuff like this is fine once.

But if you keep doing it, it unintentionally creates this arms race. The DM needs to create tougher encounters to give that same feeling of difficulty in the encounters, and eventually, something has to break.

This never ends well. Ever.

When it's a spell combo, that's one thing. OK, knock it off.

When it's Twilight, and it's literally a core feature of the subclass... it kind of eliminates the entire identity and point of the subclass.

So I'm trying to avoid something like 'almost endless HP' in Twilight.

Watchers is great, actually better than I'd thought once everyone pointed out a few things, but... I know all about Paladins and their nova capabilities. I'm legitimately trying to leave most damage to be done by the other characters, because if I create something like that, next thing you know the DM is adding more HP to compensate for the fact that I outright murdered the last encounter. I'm very hesitant on playing that, or any sort of damage dealer.

.....given what I just said, about the arms race.... Is it better to go more for a generalist sort of character, instead of going all in on one aspect?

I have to disagree. I get the whole arms race thing, but if it is about abilities and not characters, you are in a good place. Twilight cleric has such a strong domain spell list and still excellent at just wading in with Spirit Guardians and heavy armour anyway. You still get bless and healing...

If the DM tries to get past your temp HP, say by focusing down on one party member at a time then you are hardly useless. Even one round of temp HP, even if it doesn't get refreshed is still not bad for the CD. If the DM focuses on you, you are a heavily armoured and shielded cleric not a squishy backline wizard so you are doing your bit as a tank.

The other way a hostile DM might try and stop you is by separating you from your party or incapacitating you. Even with this you are well placed. Your proficiencies in cha and wis saves are great for this and misty step or similar (fey touched feat can help) can get you back to the party.

[MrCharlie]

The arms race thing is a difficult problem. It comes from a desire to challenge the party and ends with stupidly strong enemies.

As a DM, my solution is generally to mix risk and reward, and provide the party challenges that mirror their power level. If you've proven yourselves avid dragonslayers-well, your next task isn't to kill a single dragon, it's to kill a family of four. Are you capable of taking on a half-dozen ice devils? Their pit fiend boss returns with a whole new cadre and some extra upper management to show you what's for.

In my experience a good campaign is about escalation. Stakes, enemies, all tied into previous actions. If the party can take higher challenges, they should be getting higher rewards and be acknowledged for that by fighting tougher enemies. Can you take out the CR 25 final boss at level 12? Well guess what, he was only a pawn, you've proven yourselves to interested factors-the real bad guy is a Demigod, here's your shovel, get to digging.

The problem is when you mix some PCs that can handle it, and some that can't. Particularly when those PCs are in the hands of newer players who don't know how to optimize a character or play one. If it's just a guy trying a build that isn't working, then once the character dies they can roll something else. But if the player themselves can't keep up or doesn't enjoy the current level of scaling, then this becomes a destructive loop, and you end up with horror stories.

I tend to reward magic items and abilities of shocking power to weaker characters to make up for it; my last full campaign was an evil campaign and some of the stuff I handed out there would not fly in anything except a god-smiting romp through the forgotten realms. You can also tailor items to characters to fix weak builds-a sunsword and cloak of invisibility to the rogue, suddenly they have constant advantage and can explore the wonderful world of great weapon fighting style sneak attacking, if they choose.

But even with that compensation, some players might get left behind. And if that happens, it's a problem. They aren't having fun. And the arms race is behind it.

Also, directly scaling already present enemies, or making enemies that are just "better" because the party is better, is a **** way to handle it. They ought to be interacting with the world more holistically than that. If they can steamroll a problem, give them a bigger problem, don't make the problems bigger.

Even with all this said-Twilight's insane temp HP is still highly problematic for game balance. It's hard to come up with anything that can do enough damage every round to get through them and deal decent damage, without simply shredding whatever is underneath; they are that much of a sponge.

[jaappleton]

But even with that compensation, some players might get left behind. And if that happens, it's a problem. They aren't having fun. And the arms race is behind it.

Also, directly scaling already present enemies, or making enemies that are just "better" because the party is better, is a **** way to handle it. They ought to be interacting with the world more holistically than that. If they can steamroll a problem, give them a bigger problem, don't make the problems bigger.

Even with all this said-Twilight's insane temp HP is still highly problematic for game balance. It's hard to come up with anything that can do enough damage every round to get through them and deal decent damage, without simply shredding whatever is underneath; they are that much of a sponge.

This is exactly why I'm at such a crossroads.

If I were to go Cleric, I'm 99% sure it'd be Peace over Twilight. Let me help elevate those characters, lets take my optimization power level out of that equation a bit and instead uplift the other characters.

However, I wonder, how long until I put on the Infinity Gauntlet and say "Fine, I'll do it myself" and then march in to battle with a Paladin wielding a Dragon's Wrath Double-Scimitar dealing 2d4+2d6+1d8 per strike, three attacks per round, BEFORE factoring in smites?

I am very torn here. Is it possible to elevate the other party members to such a level?

I firmly believe insanely high DPR builds are foolish because.... well, when you decapitate the boss in one round, the natural reaction is "Allright, more hit points on the next one"

So I built the lock down controller.

And now I'm here.

As I think more and more, the play is to create a generalist character instead of leaning so heavily into any one role, isn't it? Sort of de-escalate the arms race by not having nuclear weaponry?

[stoutstien]

I want to clarify

My DM is very far from adversarial.

Though I do believe it's part of their task to create challenging, tension filled encounters. Sometimes that requires a bit of.... Suspension of disbelief?

I have little doubt (and the other players have said this, it's not my own hubris here) that of the players at the table, I have the most D&D knowledge. We just recently got into Tier 3 play, and I have taken full advantage of all that brings. Let's face it, more powerful spells mean more powerful effects, naturally.

If I go with a damage build, I worry about stepping on other players toes.

If I go controller, as my current character is, well... I'm not blaming the DM. Not one bit! I know what their job is, I DMed my home group for years. I know everything involved. Despite my valiant efforts, the DM can't let me trivialize every battle. When I say controller, I mean Aberrant Mind Sorc with a Bloodwell Vial and Staff of Power, with Hold Monster as a Psionic spell... That's a LOT of Hold Monsters in a day.

So, hypothetically, IF the DM is doing what needs to be done behind the scenes to prevent me from trivializing the battles, I get it. I do.

I'm the only one optimizing in such a way. If I'm going to play a hero, I want to be an effective one.

If everyone else is at a 4-7 out of 10, in terms of optimization, I'm certainly at an 11 in regards to this table.

So.... Do I go full into support, with something like Peace or Twilight, to elevate the others in the group?

Or do I make a more generalist, Jack of all trades that can contribute in a variety of ways, so the DM doesn't have to do something to prevent me from trivializing things?

Tell them to stop handing out items like those and 90% of the issues would disappear. Either or is bad enough but the fact they stack is just asking for it.

[MrCharlie]

This is exactly why I'm at such a crossroads.

If I were to go Cleric, I'm 99% sure it'd be Peace over Twilight. Let me help elevate those characters, lets take my optimization power level out of that equation a bit and instead uplift the other characters.

However, I wonder, how long until I put on the Infinity Gauntlet and say "Fine, I'll do it myself" and then march in to battle with a Paladin wielding a Dragon's Wrath Double-Scimitar dealing 2d4+2d6+1d8 per strike, three attacks per round, BEFORE factoring in smites?

I am very torn here. Is it possible to elevate the other party members to such a level?

I firmly believe insanely high DPR builds are foolish because.... well, when you decapitate the boss in one round, the natural reaction is "Allright, more hit points on the next one"

So I built the lock down controller.

And now I'm here.

As I think more and more, the play is to create a generalist character instead of leaning so heavily into any one role, isn't it?
Sortuve. I like divine soul because, in addition to A+ supporting, they get CC and AOE damage when they need it, you've just got to know how to pick their spells.

Plus, any DM who responds to DPR builds by just adding more HP to the boss is bad at encounter design. Sure, they might be good at other stuff, but that's a terrible way to make an encounter.

The only reason why twilight stands out as a reason to build a different role is due to how its abilities work. Twilight is so insane because it provides a massive soak to all people, on the tune of 4-5 HP to start, ending with 15-20 in many campaigns. That means that every enemy has to have more DPR than that to pierce through and do any damage to the character underneath-and that amount can start as high as 50% of the targets HP! It smooths out, but it's always around 10%. At later levels it's not as much of a problem, it's on par with other "negate one hit" effects, although it works on the entire party-but at early levels any increase in damage that can consistently deal with that temp HP is also variable enough to basically instantly kill a player if the enemies have a good round.

That's why the channel divinity is game breaking. The game isn't designed for such an effective soak-maybe to one person, sure, heroism exists-but everyone? At level 2?

Peace cleric, at least until level 6, merely makes all your attacks and saves more likely to succeed. That's good, but it isn't giving the party anything that's really hard to build around. The gamebreaking part of peace cleric is the ability to teleport and take damage for the rest of the party-not only does free repositioning break many encounters, but the game is not designed to treat the entire parties HP as a shared pool, and the ability has so few restrictions that you can basically do that.

The only real solution is to either build massive amounts of AOE, which is dangerous for a variety of reasons as a DM, or simply scale damage enough to deplete the shared pool-and if emboldening bond isn't up or if players want to do something more interesting than distributing damage freely, you run the risk of pasting them in an instant.

That's why twilight and peace make building a generalist look better. Because of how they break the game, and how the DM has to respond, you end up with untenable scaling and swingy encounters, or a cakewalk. There is no in between, no sweat spot.

In contrast, a divine soul increasing party HP by 20 and giving everyone 1 free death, then adding inspiring leader temp HP on top for de-facto 35+ more HP....Is still at the mercy of spell slots and having time to recharge the temp HP. Damage only needs to scale a bit, and over the course of an entire day, to keep the game relevant.

Also the buffs and support CC also have other counterplay-Break concentration, dispel the magic directly, counterspell, enemies that can see through invisibility-the DM has tactical solutions, situations where there is counterplay. Twilight/peace have shockingly little to their gamebreaking tricks.

[Master O'Laughs]

Here is another question, if the party is losing its rogue which offered a lot of skills and expertise, is the Swords bard up to the task of skill monkey?

Are all skills covered for potential skill challenges?

I am just thinking of ways to maybe weaken the overall power of a character by filling out missing areas, skill expert feat or skilled feat to cover more area.

[jaappleton]

Holy hellfire it just hit me.

I've been trying to use math to 'win' D&D when its a game that can't be won.

Its not a videogame.

[Arcomage]

Holy hellfire it just hit me.

I've been trying to use math to 'win' D&D when its a game that can't be won.

Its not a videogame.

To be fair, optimizing for party support and buffs is generally the best way to 'win' D&D that I know of. If you're doing it right, the party as a whole will be straight-up better at the things they do without your character overshadowing anyone, and the DM can throw bigger setpiece battles at the group, confident in the knowledge that the group will probably find a way through (or at least that if they don't, that in itself can be interesting).

This doesn't work for every group or for every DM, of course. I find it's very important to talk to the other party members and to the DM about what they want to achieve, and whether or not your proposed character will help them in doing that. It's ultimately a cooperative game, after all - everyone's at the table to have fun.

[jaappleton]

I figured out what I want.

And unfortunately, it doesn't freakin' exist in 5e.

Lazylord. I want the Lazylord. The Warlord from 4E that used its action economy to grant extra attacks and benefits to their allies.

That's what I want.

I think the closest I can get is an Order Domain Cleric with Sword of the Paruns, but I'm not positive that's the best route to go. That might lean too heavily into combat.

Maybe Peace Domain with Sword of the Paruns to boost attack rolls and saves?

[MrCharlie]

I figured out what I want.

And unfortunately, it doesn't freakin' exist in 5e.

Lazylord. I want the Lazylord. The Warlord from 4E that used its action economy to grant extra attacks and benefits to their allies.

That's what I want.

I think the closest I can get is an Order Domain Cleric with Sword of the Paruns, but I'm not positive that's the best route to go. That might lean too heavily into combat.

Maybe Peace Domain with Sword of the Paruns to boost attack rolls and saves?
Technically it sortuve exists in the banneret, it's just that the banneret is awful. Or a battlemaster, but the commanders strike maneuver has terrible action economy.

The most practical way to get what you want is probably a sorcerer twinning haste, then walking around the corner and playing solitaire or something.

Edit: You could also take mastermind levels and help as a bonus action, and have a familiar that uses the help action. But really, this sounds like any old pacifist build now.

[Khrysaes]

I figured out what I want.

And unfortunately, it doesn't freakin' exist in 5e.

Lazylord. I want the Lazylord. The Warlord from 4E that used its action economy to grant extra attacks and benefits to their allies.

That's what I want.

I think the closest I can get is an Order Domain Cleric with Sword of the Paruns, but I'm not positive that's the best route to go. That might lean too heavily into combat.

Maybe Peace Domain with Sword of the Paruns to boost attack rolls and saves?

Order cleric with silvery tongue 1st level spell from strixhaven can sort of work too as a reaction.

Another option but takes ua is a mastermind rogue with tandem tactician and hobgoblin of the feywild from ua.

Finally, battlemaster or bannarett as mentioned.

Best part is that you can actually get all 3 if you multiclass enough.

[jaappleton]

So....

Hobgoblin of the Feywild
Tandem Tactician
Peace Cleric 6
Anything with Extra Attack 5
Sword of the Paruns

The way I read Tandem Tactician and Hobgoblin of the Feywild, the way Fey Gift is written, it only limits how often I can use Help as a bonus action.

It does NOT limit how often I can use Spite, Hospitality, or Passage.

And reading Tandem Tactician, I can use Help as a bonus action as often as I want, at a total range of 15ft, and when I use it to grant Advantage on an allies next attack, I can actually target two allies, and impart Spite, Hospitality, or Passage to those two allies.

......am I misreading this?

[J-H]

Why not limit yourself to a single class instead of a 3-class multiclass using an obscure or UA race that doesn't play nice with most settings? I'm familiar with the core books and I've never heard of Sword of the Paruns or Tandem Tactician.

It sounds like most players are running single-class, or a single multiclass at most, and you're showing up with a xXKillstealr69Xx (https://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=45867) build.

[Khrysaes]

So....

Hobgoblin of the Feywild
Tandem Tactician
Peace Cleric 6
Anything with Extra Attack 5
Sword of the Paruns

The way I read Tandem Tactician and Hobgoblin of the Feywild, the way Fey Gift is written, it only limits how often I can use Help as a bonus action.

It does NOT limit how often I can use Spite, Hospitality, or Passage.

And reading Tandem Tactician, I can use Help as a bonus action as often as I want, at a total range of 15ft, and when I use it to grant Advantage on an allies next attack, I can actually target two allies, and impart Spite, Hospitality, or Passage to those two allies.

......am I misreading this?

No. That is right.
I recommend 6 battlemaster fighter/4 mastermind rogue, increase your bonus action help range to 45 feet. Lets you use the sword of paruns abilities for dodge and dash as bonus actions, and you can use maneuvering strike or commanders strike maneuvers when you attack.

With 6 peace cleric you could do 3 rogue, 6 cleric and 11 fighter to get that 3rd attack if you wanted.

[Greywander]

To be fair, you made this thread asking for the "best X", so it shouldn't be a surprise that people are responding with over-optimized builds that will trivialize typical level-appropriate encounters.


So.... Do I go full into support, with something like Peace or Twilight, to elevate the others in the group?

Or do I make a more generalist, Jack of all trades that can contribute in a variety of ways, so the DM doesn't have to do something to prevent me from trivializing things?
There's also a third option, and it sounds like the one most suited to your current situation: play a wacky, off-the-wall build that isn't optimized, but is fun. There's a lot of build concepts that are interesting or fun, but simply aren't optimized. Which isn't to say these builds can't be optimized within their own parameters, but they'll always lag behind a properly optimized build. But you can at least take a subpar concept and make it competent.

What's a character concept you've had that you've wanted to try but the build itself just wasn't very strong? Now's your chance.


Holy hellfire it just hit me.

I've been trying to use math to 'win' D&D when its a game that can't be won.

Its not a videogame.
Yup. Which isn't to say you shouldn't build a competent character, or that you shouldn't try to defeat your enemies, but D&D is more about playing and less about winning.